Meet the virtuoso

[AXLIB.8425]

4 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Multiple feedbacks were made back with mirage cloak and look where that ended up, having 1 second back then was way too strong and it ended up getting gutted to 1 dodge.

 

Feedbacks wont change their minds in giving Virtuoso new mechanics the only thing that there is left is tweak numbers here and there for dmg. 

 

Feedbacks wont change their minds in giving Virtuoso actual utilities that will not be comparable to weapon AoE skills or a Elite that means something, just look at Harbinger and Willbender. 

 

Back when people were saying Virtuoso was underwhelming you had the white knights say oh you haven't seen the traits yet, now the traits are out and granted I'm pretty sure those white knights got slapped in the face pretty hard they are still defending and hoping the devs will actually listen to feedbacks from players after the person who literally showcased Virtuoso was laughing at the Mirage nerf and was saying traits were too strong and needed nerf. They knew what they were doing and how that dodge nerf will massively nerf the spec overall.

Jazz was in a podcast with the people that work there and they still failed to listen to a competitive mesmer main on what needs to be changed.

 

Nothing about Virtuoso is new and its just skills reskinned with flashy effects to make it seem like its new mechanic. I guess most of the real mesmer mains have already left the game or re-rolled another class and never looked back.

you forgot the part where those white knight then go on saying that "oh, it's okay for mesmer to get a simple dps class" or "oh but I actually like a simple class", or my favourite "ooooo, shining!" (with them saying in skrit voice)

 

 

That said, it okay if you prefer something simple, but if you decide to completely ignore all the flaw of the trait line and continuing using the line of new elite don't need to be mechanically complex then there is a problem 

[mortrialus.3062]

The F3 really stands out as one of the worst things of this spec.

 

1.  Interrupt with a 0.5 second cast time and a projectile.

2. Requires a blade to use making it useless in an emergency.

3. Requires facing the target so if you're jumped from behind you have no defense as you flee.

4. CMC'S philosophy means it will do zero damaged in PvP.

 

It should really be a straight up stun if it's going to have a cast time. Like a second of stun per blade with 5 seconds at 5 blades. Cuz like even thief headshot is instant cast with it's projectile with a very short after cast.

 

The Dagger 3 should apply cripple or chill to help trap players in it as well.

Edited August 16, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[draxynnic.3719]

16 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Illusions haven't been a problem for story content since the Phantasm rework. Why does it feel like everybody who defends this spec doesn't actually play Mesmer?

Because you guys like ad hominems, apparently. 1461 hours on mesmer. 

 

The phantasm rework frontloads phantasm damage, but it doesn't really do much to make clones more viable. Try using clones effectively against, say, pocket raptor swarms.

Quote

 

It is literally the only elite spec that doesn't have a new mechanic, the entire point of elite specs.

 

It has a new mechanic, you just don't like it.

 

16 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Yes lets pair our condi pbaoe with our power ranged weapon off to a good start.

Torch still does decent damage on power stats, you know. Or you could have the trait that makes dagger bleed on critical (You DO know that the dagger attacks and utilities all have the blade keyword and thus trigger that trait, right?). For the sorts of situations I'm thinking of, though, probably better to stick to power.  

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Greatsword is literally designed for it.

Hahaha. No. Skill 1 is a beam that's likely to autotarget to a nearby enemy and not get the benefit of the pierce unless you manually target a distant enemy, and if you can pull that off, you can probably get good results out of dagger 1 too. Skill 2 is a bounce that can hit multiple targets but which generally performs best up close against a single target. Skill 3 is a small area. Phantasm can be unreliable in hitting multiple targets due to the angle, although it does well enough if they're all bunched up. And skill 5 is a pushback.

 

Some of those AoE effects were also added after release, so clearly not part of the original design.

 

If you think that's "designed for it", you haven't looked at the AoE options other classes have. 

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Core, Chrono and Mirage F1 and F2 are Aoe, which is better for aoe then pierce.

Depends on the circumstances... and whether you can get them off at all.

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3 clone shatters are easy to get off in PvE. 1 - 2 clone shatters are easy to get off in open world where things are dying as fast as you say and 2 clone shatters do more damage then 5 blade shatters.

Again, depends on the circumstances. I haven't looked too closely at the damage coefficients, but we're talking broad design here, not fine points of balance.

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This 'bit of extra' AoE is by far the best aoe tagging in the game. Dagger with its noodle auto attack and snail 3 attack aren't coming close to competing.

Tagging? Maybe, now the lootstick is gone, although I'd still question that. More significantly, it still requires being able to get those three clones up.

 

10 hours ago, AXLIB.8425 said:

the job of elite is to provide new way to play or new role to fulfil, and you said there are so many roles in the game and not every elite spec can be revolutionary, and I agree. but virtuoso doesn't do either of them well, in pve you still have the same game play of ramp up your ammo then press f1 or f2 depending of power or condi, and use phantasm while you are doing it. removal of clone doesn't achieve anything major, it won't help make new player understand mesmer better because you damage will still be tied to your ammo and phantasm, and you also lost the clone that can be a distraction for you in certain places.

Same rampup, sure, but you trade the distraction effect of clones for not having to worry about your rampup disappearing when clones die. 

10 hours ago, AXLIB.8425 said:

When it comes to roles, looking at traits and new shatters, virtuoso is focused on power damage, which is already a role mesmer has with chrono, and it is not like mesmer don't have new roles to fill, defensive support mesmer is still the a sorry state of existence. 

I wouldn't say that "power damage" is really the chronomancer role. It definitely has power-oriented tools, but condi chrono is also a thing.

 

Defensive support mesmer does sound interesting - chronomancer did go a bit in that direction, but then Well of Precognition got nerfed. 

10 hours ago, AXLIB.8425 said:

i don't think just because there are good cleave on the optional thing virtuoso brings, dagger and 3 utilities, virtuoso is intended for wvw zerg, simply because everything on virtuoso is projectile and that means you won't be able to do a thing in zerg play with how many reflect and projectile block there are. and unlike other projectile heavy class like ranger, virtuoso don't have access to any form of unlockable. it is also weird that if virtuoso is meant to fulfil the role of power aoe cleaver like you suggested, and f skills (the new f skills are actually worth than core when it comes to aoe damage) and trait does not reflect that what-so-ever, which in my opinion, is more important thing to like at then weapon skills and utility skills. 

I think it's still got more potential than trying to get a regular shatter off in a zerg situation. Push comes to shove, you can at least stock blades and F4 when an enemy gets close and/or you need the blocks.

[draxynnic.3719]

10 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

The F3 really stands out as one of the worst things of this spec.

 

1.  Interrupt with a 0.5 second cast time and a projectile.

2. Requires a blade to use making it useless in an emergency.

3. Requires facing the target so if you're jumped from behind you have no defense as you flee.

4. CMC'S philosophy means it will do zero damaged in PvP.

 

It should really be a straight up stun if it's going to have a cast time.

That makes sense, now that the trait that turned dazes into stuns is gone. Make it one of those skills where you can see it coming but if you let it hit you and you don't have a stunbreak... ouch.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

That makes sense, now that the trait that turned dazes into stuns is gone. Make it one of those skills where you can see it coming but if you let it hit you and you don't have a stunbreak... ouch.

Nothing really ouchy about it.

If the stun lands, you might go for a kitten and by the time you come back TC, SoD or RoS is still pulsing and you have time to move out of the way.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Levetty.1279]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Because you guys like ad hominems, apparently. 1461 hours on mesmer. 

AFK in the PvP lobby I presume because you know nothing about how it works in PvE.

 

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It has a new mechanic, you just don't like it.

Name it, we will wait.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Nothing about Virtuoso is NEW. Its funny how people think recoloring and remodeling things will make it seem like its a new mechanic. 

 

Simply dense....

Edited August 16, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

18 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Nothing about Virtuoso is NEW. Its funny how people think recoloring and remodeling things will make it seem like its a new mechanic. 

 

Simply dense....

Indeed. Different names but still the same thing.

Can ANerf stop reskinning our stuff?

Edited August 16, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[mortrialus.3062]

Also this spec should be getting unlockable in places.  It's psionic right?  It's directly attacking the mind so it'd make sense thematically.  Plus that would make the 100% ranged focus spec less easily countered my one mechanic.  I figured there'd be a trait that would give some kind of unblockable.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

12 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

  It's psionic right? 

They're psionic blades that create songs. 

It's like 3 dudes came up with different ideas and mashed them all together. 

I wish they went to the drawing board again. 

[Me Games Ma.3024]

@Levetty.1279

@Salt Mode.3780

Virtuoso looks and feels like a "Core +" due to the fact that all it does is replacing Shatters and Clones with Bladesongs and Blades. The shatter's still do the same and they're still way too similar to our core shatters. That is where I agree with you. However blades can still be considered a new mechanic (not a very origial one tho :c ).

 

Add: I feel like the Blade skillfact was a mechanic that they've cut. Now it's just there for 2 traits which feels really weird to me.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Me Games Ma.3024

[Salt Mode.3780]

32 minutes ago, Me Games Ma.3024 said:

@Levetty.1279

@Salt Mode.3780

Virtuoso looks and feels like a "Core +" due to the fact that all it does is replacing Shatters and Clones with Bladesongs and Blades. The shatter's still do the same and they're still way too similar to our core shatters. That is where I agree with you. However blades can still be considered a new mechanic (not a very origial one tho :c ).

 

Add: I feel like the Blade skillfact was a mechanic that they've cut. Now it's just there for 2 traits which feels really weird to me.

The "Blade" tooltip is just something to add on to pretend its a new mechanic but in reality its no different then other classes that uses ammo resource just adding on flashy effects and animation. 

[Levetty.1279]

43 minutes ago, Me Games Ma.3024 said:

@Levetty.1279

@Salt Mode.3780

Virtuoso looks and feels like a "Core +" due to the fact that all it does is replacing Shatters and Clones with Bladesongs and Blades. The shatter's still do the same and they're still way too similar to our core shatters. That is where I agree with you. However blades can still be considered a new mechanic (not a very origial one tho :c ).

 

Add: I feel like the Blade skillfact was a mechanic that they've cut. Now it's just there for 2 traits which feels really weird to me.

Blades are a visual representation of the resource we need to shatter. The little dots that appear over the shatters on core Mesmer.

 

They removed the physical aspect of clones and replaced it with?

Edited August 16, 2021 by Levetty.1279

[Me Games Ma.3024]

36 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Blades are a visual representation of the resource we need to shatter. The little dots that appear over the shatters on core Mesmer.

 

They removed the physical aspect of clones and replaced it with?

They work differently. That's what the replacement is:

Clones:

• will perform autoattacks
• can be attacked and die
• die when the target dies
• are used as primary resource

Blades:

• can not attack
• can not be attacked
• will stick around forever
• are used as primary resource

 

At this point you're just being salty that we didn't get cool stuff but look at it this way: When was the last time we got cool stuff? iirc it was when they changed phantasms to not be bad minions (2018). If you stick to mesmer long enough you'll get used to not getting what the others get. Additionally you'll get used to others stealing your uniqueness :)

However why project this all into negativity?

[Quadox.7834]

6 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

The F3 really stands out as one of the worst things of this spec.

 

1.  Interrupt with a 0.5 second cast time and a projectile.

2. Requires a blade to use making it useless in an emergency.

3. Requires facing the target so if you're jumped from behind you have no defense as you flee.

4. CMC'S philosophy means it will do zero damaged in PvP.

 

It should really be a straight up stun if it's going to have a cast time. Like a second of stun per blade with 5 seconds at 5 blades. Cuz like even thief headshot is instant cast with it's projectile with a very short after cast.

 

The Dagger 3 should apply cripple or chill to help trap players in it as well.

it wont do 0 dmg in pvp

 

also there seems to be another big negative with f3, it only applies one big daze instead of one per clone. so if you hit a 5 blade f3 it will still only apply 5 vuln with domination while a 3 clone shatter applies 15-20 vuln.

 

i agree that it should probably stun or maybe even knockback (the latter would fit a ranged class).

Edited August 16, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[Quadox.7834]

9 minutes ago, Me Games Ma.3024 said:

They work differently. That's what the replacement is:

Clones:

• will perform autoattacks
• can be attacked and die
• die when the target dies
• are used as primary resource

Blades:

• can not attack
• can not be attacked
• will stick around forever
• are used as primary resource

 

At this point you're just being salty that we didn't get cool stuff but look at it this way: When was the last time we got cool stuff? iirc it was when they changed phantasms to not be bad minions (2018). If you stick to mesmer long enough you'll get used to not getting what the others get. Additionally you'll get used to others stealing your uniqueness :)

However why project this all into negativity?

the phantasm rework wasnt cool, it was really bad (for pvp, idc about pve)

[Quadox.7834]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

They're psionic blades that create songs. 

It's like 3 dudes came up with different ideas and mashed them all together. 

I wish they went to the drawing board again. 

100% agreed. i feel like they saw on the forums/reddit that people have been asking for

 

* Minstrel/bard/siren (song based spec)

 

* Bladedancer

 

* Telekinesis/psychic based spec

 

and they basically made mostly a standard blade throwing assassin but threw in the song theme in the shatter names (bladesongs) and the psychic theme in a single utility (the push), even though this doesn't make any sense.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

10 minutes ago, Quadox.7834 said:

the phantasm rework wasnt cool, it was really bad (for pvp, idc about pve)

Not only the phantasms damage got tuned down, some of them can't even hit a freaking npc now, the phantasms take forever to change to clones. It was one of the worst mesmer updates. 

 

 

As for the clones vs blades. They're the same - food for shatters. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Levetty.1279]

19 minutes ago, Me Games Ma.3024 said:

At this point you're just being salty that we didn't get cool stuff but look at it this way:

How about you stop insulting people and talk like an adult.

 

You just listed the ways in which they removed clones, what is the replacement? 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

20 minutes ago, Quadox.7834 said:

100% agreed. i feel like they saw on the forums/reddit that people have been asking for

 

* Minstrel/bard/siren (song based spec)

 

* Bladedancer

 

* Telekinesis/psychic based spec

 

and they basically made mostly a standard blade throwing assassin but threw in the song theme in the shatter names (bladesongs) and the psychic theme in a single utility (the push), even though this doesn't make any sense.

Instead of catering to the three groups, they've catered to no one.

The least they can do, since they're not going back to the drawing board, it's to dish out any reference to psyonics and music and stick with only the blade theme.

Otherwise it's just a mess. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Clones only ever had a bad reputation is when they massively decreased the HP of them. Back on release clones can be used as a way to block a incoming ranged attack or serve as actual distraction rather then what it is now.

 

Another thing they should've done is now that WvW has bloodlust and buffs here and there including food buffs they should also include it to the clones.

 

Clones was never an issue before HoT.

 

May 11, 2021	Undocumented change: Clones now self-destroy without effect when attacking invulnerable enemies, or if they have no path to their target.
February 06, 2018	Phantasms can no longer be shattered and no longer count toward your maximum illusion count. Phantasms are destroyed and then replaced by clones after completing their unique attack or if their attack is interrupted. Fixed a bug in which downed clones could persist after a rally. Fixed a bug in which downed clones could exceed the illusion limit.

 

3 years since clones or phantasms received ANY prominent update. This isn't a clone issue this is a lack of attention issue.

[Me Games Ma.3024]

34 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

How about you stop insulting people and talk like an adult.

 

You just listed the ways in which they removed clones, what is the replacement? 

There was no insult in my post however there just was one in yours. Let's not derail that any further and get back to topic.

Clones not being a thing IS the replacement. I just gave you an overview of what we miss out on and what we get.

Again this is the tradeoff that we get from getting a mechanic that is different to clones:

Pros:

• Blades do not disappear.
• Blades are not bound to a Target
• Blades can not be killed
• Blades don't have to walk up to our target

Cons:

• Blades can not body block
• Blades do not attack
• Blades can not distract

 

Tell me how this is not a mechanical change to clones.

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 minute ago, Me Games Ma.3024 said:

There was no insult in my post however there just was one in yours. Let's not derail that any further and get back to topic.

Clones not being a thing IS the replacement. I just gave you an overview of what we miss out on and what we get.

Again this is the tradeoff that we get from getting a mechanic that is different to clones:

Pros:

• Blades do not disappear.
• Blades are not bound to a Target
• Blades can not be killed
• Blades don't have to walk up to our target

Cons:

• Blades can not body block
• Blades do not attack
• Blades can not distract

 

Tell me how this is not a mechanical change to clones.

This isn't mechanic this is just ammunition replacement, the resource is the same thing serves the same function for our F1 to F4. A new mechanic will be for example Mirage cloak or C.Split. 

What could be a new mechanic is aside from shattering F1 to F4 your weapon skills instead of whatever we have now is to use those blades as attack commands as our normal weapon skill. 

[Levetty.1279]

4 minutes ago, Me Games Ma.3024 said:

There was no insult in my post however there just was one in yours. Let's not derail that any further and get back to topic.

Clones not being a thing IS the replacement. I just gave you an overview of what we miss out on and what we get.

Again this is the tradeoff that we get from getting a mechanic that is different to clones:

Pros:

• Blades do not disappear.
• Blades are not bound to a Target
• Blades can not be killed
• Blades don't have to walk up to our target

Cons:

• Blades can not body block
• Blades do not attack
• Blades can not distract

 

Tell me how this is not a mechanical change to clones.

Yes there was an insult. Mine was just a statement of fact because throwing out insults because somebody disagrees with you is childish.

 

The absence of something is not a mechanic. Is your favorite Warrior mechanic the lack of range on sword? Is your favorite Ranger mechanic how you don't cause bleed on yourself with every attack? Is your favorite engineer mechanic the lack of a permanent pet? No because those aren't mechanics. 

[Me Games Ma.3024]

4 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Yes there was an insult. Mine was just a statement of fact because throwing out insults because somebody disagrees with you is childish.

 

The absence of something is not a mechanic. Is your favorite Warrior mechanic the lack of range on sword? Is your favorite Ranger mechanic how you don't cause bleed on yourself with every attack? Is your favorite engineer mechanic the lack of a permanent pet? No because those aren't mechanics. 

You're stating things without a trade off.

Are you saying that Replacing F1-F4 is not a mechanical replacement? That's all necros got for ages. They always just get "another shroud". And on top we got our ammunition replaced to be less clunky and more reliable and bursty.