Guys, we get stolen so much things by others class but why not conjures ?

[WindBlade.8749]

It's the only thing that did not get stolen from us.

I'm glady to offer conjures for the next guardian spec, it's will be the weaver farewell gift to new melee power offhand sword guardian spec.

[Alurazle.5430]

I just wish they would make them kits.

[Kodama.6453]

4 hours ago, Alurazle.5430 said:

I just wish they would make them kits.

I don't think this will ever happen.

 

The cooldown and charges serve as limiter to their usage because Elementalist already has so many skills from their attunement system. Being able to freely swap between conjured weapons like kits would give elemtalist so many skills available at any given time....

 

It would require them to get nerfed into oblivion.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

5 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I don't think this will ever happen.

 

The cooldown and charges serve as limiter to their usage because Elementalist already has so many skills from their attunement system. Being able to freely swap between conjured weapons like kits would give elemtalist so many skills available at any given time....

 

It would require them to get nerfed into oblivion.

Oh, but they've already been nerfed into oblivion, so it's fine to do it then, thank you for clearing it up.

[Kodama.6453]

44 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Oh, but they've already been nerfed into oblivion, so it's fine to do it then, thank you for clearing it up.

I meant they would probably nerf them even harder.

 

Another point to consider is that it would take away any advantage of the engineer class mechanic and would make the elementalist class mechanic simply better in every way.

 

Both class mechanics are basically just "I get more skills to use".

Elementalist gets 15 additional skills based on their weapons, engineer gets 5 more skills based on their utility skills. So elementalist, by default, has simply more.

 

Engineer is making up for that with their kit mechanic, allowing them to switch freely between more skills by investing utility slots.

If Elementalist has the same kit mechanic, this advantage is gone, elementalist's class mechanic becomes a generally better version of the engineer mechanic,

 

There is a reason why conjured weapons aren't kits.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Just now, Kodama.6453 said:

I meant they would probably nerf them even harder.

 

Another point to consider is that it would take away any advantage of the engineer class mechanic and would make the elementalist class mechanic simply better in every way.

 

Both class mechanics are basically just "I get more skills to use".

Elementalist gets 15 additional skills based on their weapons, engineer gets 5 more skills based on their utility skills. So elementalist, by default, has simply more.

 

Engineer is making up for that with their kit mechanic, allowing them to switch freely between more skills by investing utility slots.

If Elementalist has the same kit mechanic, this advantage is gone, elementalist's class mechanic becomes a generally better version of the engineer mechanic,

 

There is a reason why conjured weapons aren't kits.

Well, you wrote all that wall of text and still missed the real reason why conjures aren't kits, that's quite amazing I must say.
Most conjures are much weaker than engi kits beside maybe Earth Conjure and FGS, which is only good for mobility from time to time. 
You also kinda forget that these 20 weapon skills of Ele are much weaker or come with drawbacks compared to other classes 5~10 weapon skills and have much higher cooldown, so you can't really use it as an argument here.
Also engineer kits provide additional skills for F1-F5 as part of class mechanic, which conjures won't be able to do so.
Now, for the real reason why Conjures won't be like kits:
Conjures SUMMON additional copy of it on the ground so it can be used by your friendz for whatever reasons.

[Kodama.6453]

4 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Most conjures are much weaker than engi kits beside maybe Earth Conjure and FGS, which is only good for mobility from time to time. 

Really, you think that? Do you know the hard hitters among conjured weapon skills?

 

• firestorm (FGS 5): hits 10 targets for a power coefficient of 5,85 with 15 seconds cooldown
• invoke lightning (lightning hammer 4): if you are hitting a large target, it can potentially hit for a power coefficient of 7,17 on 20 seconds cooldown
• frost storm (frostbow 4): hitting for 5,88 on large targets with 20 seconds cooldown

 

Then there are also many strong CCs on these weapon skills:

• deep freeze (frostbow 5): 3 seconds stun
• static field (lightning hammer 5): 2 seconds stun field
• magnetic surge/shield: 2 seconds of daze and a pull

So dealing breakbar damage is easy with these kits, too, on top of having quite some hard hitters.

 

Additionally, alot of mobility through conjured weapons, too. And earth shield is the best defensive weapon kit in the entire game, literally all it's skills add defense.

 

I really don't see them as weaker than kits. What is holding them back is the massive downtime because of the cooldown of the conjured weapon itself as well as that you can not weave in and out of them easily. But you don't think you would pass on the 3 hard hitter skills on dps builds if you could just go into the conjured weapon, use the hardest hitting skill and go to the next one, do you? 15 seconds cooldown on a skill which deals 5,85 power damage coefficient is massive.

 

4 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

You also kinda forget that these 20 weapon skills of Ele are much weaker or come with drawbacks compared to other classes 5~10 weapon skills and have much higher cooldown, so you can't really use it as an argument here.

Same applies to the engineer. Our weapon skills are really not impressive. We engineers were asking for buffs/reworks to pistol mainhand and rifle for ages already.

 

4 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Also engineer kits provide additional skills for F1-F5 as part of class mechanic, which conjures won't be able to do so.

I acknowledged that our class mechanic gives us 5 additional skills, not sure why you repeat it here as if it would be something specific for kits.

 

Engineer class mechanic gives 5 more skills. Elementalist class mechanic gives 15 more skills. It is easy to figure out which one is more valuable here.

4 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Now, for the real reason why Conjures won't be like kits:
Conjures SUMMON additional copy of it on the ground so it can be used by your friendz for whatever reasons.

I know that you can share them. I don't think that this is the only reason why they are designed the way they are, tho.

 

Elementalist already is the class with most skills available if they chose to, you want to make them have an even easier time to cram their build with loads and loads of skills.

Conjured weapons are not just having a cooldown because of the share mechanic. I have shown above, conjured weapon skills actually have REALLY low cooldowns for what they do compared to other skills.

 

If they would rework these weapons into kits, they would have to tone down alot of stuff.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Vaeo.4097]

While turning conjured weapons into a kits would be bad decision it definitely needs some rework. To make it more comfortable to use.

Currently conjure weapon skills have 60 sec cooldown and  provides 2 copies of the weapon: one in hand and one on ground. I think skill cooldown should be halved (to 30 sec) but no second copy of weapon on ground. This will make conjured weapons so much easier to use.

Also it would be nice to change some of conjured weapons into support tool. I mean boon stacking, condi cleansing, unique buffs like warrior banners (but lasting only 30 sec), etc.

[Jski.6180]

Kits kind of hit harder then conja weapons and tend to have more utility and effects. The only thing conja weapons seem to have over kits is the added states of holding a conja wepon and the ability to buff 1 other player that picks up that conja wepon.

 

Conja weapons are missing a ture healing skill frost bow is a joke. It would go a long way to give ele an melee or 600 range healing conja wepon. As for letting the ele contort its conja weapons though say an ammo system and a 0 cast time would go a long way to fixing ele.

 

Ele has no ele only effects just how the class is made the best bet is to simply ask for effects that anet are shearing out to other classes like quirkiness alacrity even stab as well as different fields and different condi types other classes have.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

About damage and effects, *skills are overall stronger than ones in kits; it's just that ... you have a cast-time for the weapon, you use one or two skills, then you wait the remaining ~50sec, or 170sec if you want to use them again.

Kits are more fluid, more available, you don't weigh the pros and cons every time you want one skill. In this aspect, yes kits and their skills are stronger in practice, because less punitive, more fluid etc.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[MyPuppy.8970]

Conjures aren't -that- bad... They just don't flow well with the class mechanic and design, and are -at best- very situational or gimmicky.

Edited August 16, 2021 by MyPuppy.8970

[RabbitUp.8294]

On 8/11/2021 at 11:56 AM, WindBlade.8749 said:

It's the only thing that did not get stolen from us.

I'm glady to offer conjures for the next guardian spec, it's will be the weaver farewell gift to new melee power offhand sword guardian spec.

What exactly got stolen from you?

 

The whole idea of elite specs is sharing skill types among the professions. If you are keeping tally, elementalist shared 2 of their unique types (cantrip and glyph), same as necro who shared wells to both chrono and, after the change, scrapper. Meanwhile warrior's stances were given to both SB and weaver, and physical to DD and now WB. 

[Stallic.2397]

The added stats that each conjure gives also makes them different from kits. I wouldn't care to remove those in order to buff conjures some other way. 

 

Conjures are just so much clunkier than kits. It's not difficult to make sure the two remain different, but give conjures some QOL. Remove the activation time. They could even add a flip skill once activated. Second skill makes the weapon fly to the Elem like a soulbeast pet when it merges to the ranger. 

 

That way, it can still be shared, there's still a much longer cooldown compared to kits, but conjures are suddenly much easier/fun to play

[Sunshine.5014]

On 8/11/2021 at 1:56 AM, WindBlade.8749 said:

It's the only thing that did not get stolen from us.

I'm glady to offer conjures for the next guardian spec, it's will be the weaver farewell gift to new melee power offhand sword guardian spec.

 

This is so funny I would cry.

 

I wish they steal our Conjure or Arcane skills.

[lightDestroyer.1265]

21 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I meant they would probably nerf them even harder.

 

Another point to consider is that it would take away any advantage of the engineer class mechanic and would make the elementalist class mechanic simply better in every way.

 

Both class mechanics are basically just "I get more skills to use".

Elementalist gets 15 additional skills based on their weapons, engineer gets 5 more skills based on their utility skills. So elementalist, by default, has simply more.

 

Engineer is making up for that with their kit mechanic, allowing them to switch freely between more skills by investing utility slots.

If Elementalist has the same kit mechanic, this advantage is gone, elementalist's class mechanic becomes a generally better version of the engineer mechanic,

 

There is a reason why conjured weapons aren't kits.

Well u can use kits without any cooldown, but attunement swap has cooldown, sou really cant compare unless u agree with giving elementaliat 0 cooldown on attunement swap. 

[Emberheart.8426]

Converting conjures into kits is a perfect example of "be careful what you wish for, or you may just get it". Look at the meltdown that necro mains are experiencing, even though they are getting exactly what they wanted with harbinger. Please think of the consequences before asking for something like this.

[The Boz.2038]

Glyph is a skill type that changes effects based on your attunement. Perfect for this.

Delete all Conjures. Also delete Glyph of Renewal, because reasons.

Make Glyph of Conjuration, into which all the Conjures are folded (with some overlap, in case of fire).

Then make an entirely new skill type, because holy crap, does Ele need actually functional skill types.

[Kodama.6453]

4 hours ago, lightDestroyer.1265 said:

Well u can use kits without any cooldown, but attunement swap has cooldown, sou really cant compare unless u agree with giving elementaliat 0 cooldown on attunement swap. 

I am actually not directly comparing attunements with kits, but both class mechanics, which are attunements and the toolbelt.

 

Attunements are giving elementalist 15 additional skills to the standard 5 skills of a weapon, 5 for each element. The toolbelt just gives 5 more skills depending on your utility skill choices.

 

The attunement system simply grants more skills than the toolbelt does. Most of the times, it is just a stronger system.

 

Additionally to these class mechanics, both classes are allowed to spend utility skill slots to "buy" more skills. In case of engineer with kits, in case of elementalist with conjured weapons,

 

Kits are a stronger system than conjured weapons for this purpose, but I think this is intentional to make up for the attunement system being a stronger system than the toolbelt, evening both classes out somewhat.

 

If elementalist conjured weapons get changed into kits, this advantage gets taken away, which leaves engineer with basically being a class with a worse elementalist class mechanic.  

[Jski.6180]

8 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I am actually not directly comparing attunements with kits, but both class mechanics, which are attunements and the toolbelt.

 

Attunements are giving elementalist 15 additional skills to the standard 5 skills of a weapon, 5 for each element. The toolbelt just gives 5 more skills depending on your utility skill choices.

 

The attunement system simply grants more skills than the toolbelt does. Most of the times, it is just a stronger system.

 

Additionally to these class mechanics, both classes are allowed to spend utility skill slots to "buy" more skills. In case of engineer with kits, in case of elementalist with conjured weapons,

 

Kits are a stronger system than conjured weapons for this purpose, but I think this is intentional to make up for the attunement system being a stronger system than the toolbelt, evening both classes out somewhat.

 

If elementalist conjured weapons get changed into kits, this advantage gets taken away, which leaves engineer with basically being a class with a worse elementalist class mechanic.  

I am of the mind that kits should act like actuments where they go on 10 sec cd when you leave the kit. Its way too free to swap kits vs atument swaps or even wepon swaps. Dose not mean conja weapons should become kits but ppl use it as an easy chose for anet to do to "fix." There are better chose like the ammo system ppl keep suggesting as well as making each conja wepon fill a full roll and not just part of an roll.

[Sunshine.5014]

Maybe instead of buffing Conjure, we can nerf Kit instead?

[haattila.5974]

I agree let's nerf kit and also remove the 2 damaging weapon engi can have it's too strong.

I wish kit had decent damage coeficient 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

We're not talking about nerfing kits. 😠

[lightDestroyer.1265]

22 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I am actually not directly comparing attunements with kits, but both class mechanics, which are attunements and the toolbelt.

 

Attunements are giving elementalist 15 additional skills to the standard 5 skills of a weapon, 5 for each element. The toolbelt just gives 5 more skills depending on your utility skill choices.

 

The attunement system simply grants more skills than the toolbelt does. Most of the times, it is just a stronger system.

 

Additionally to these class mechanics, both classes are allowed to spend utility skill slots to "buy" more skills. In case of engineer with kits, in case of elementalist with conjured weapons,

 

Kits are a stronger system than conjured weapons for this purpose, but I think this is intentional to make up for the attunement system being a stronger system than the toolbelt, evening both classes out somewhat.

 

If elementalist conjured weapons get changed into kits, this advantage gets taken away, which leaves engineer with basically being a class with a worse elementalist class mechanic.  

Attunememt system is stronger?  You have 9 sec cooldown if you swap,  conjured weapons are another 60 sec cooldown and lock u in 5 skills that are useless as well.  The only conjure i respect is earth shield.  More skills?  U forgetting your f1 f2 f3 f4 f5?  Leaving all that aside,  when u are fire or air u attack,if you swap to water or earth u defend unlike engineer when you can do it anytime.  Because no cooldown on swap. Elementalist has more skills,  but access to them at a time is limited whereas engi can access any skill anytimeand that fact is not small.  It is why weaver is the better out of the 3 specs cuz of low cooldown swaps combined with getting a chance to attack and defend at the same time. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by lightDestroyer.1265

[haattila.5974]

Yeah let's make conjure like kit but to make it balance let's remove Dagger as both mainhand and offhands. If it makes no sense because some build needs spe oriented MH/OH that's too bad that's the balance tradeoff for kit

[lightDestroyer.1265]

16 hours ago, haattila.5974 said:

Yeah let's make conjure like kit but to make it balance let's remove Dagger as both mainhand and offhands. If it makes no sense because some build needs spe oriented MH/OH that's too bad that's the balance tradeoff for kit

Yeah, it makes sense to take away the only close combact weapon.  While we do that,  why not take away the sword from holo and the shield.  Why not just delete the holo spec.

Edited August 19, 2021 by lightDestroyer.1265