Necro Elite Spec: The Harbinger

[Asum.4960]

On 8/11/2021 at 5:31 PM, Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

Wow, I really like what I see, and it almost sounds like it's exactly giving that what I've been asking for, for a long time now.

It almost looks like a more mobile, glassy, pure cDPS spec with some self-inflicting/punishing mechanism. In other words, not the easiest to play class anymore, but in the right hands absolutely devastating. 

 

The only thing I don't get is that it looks like a condi dps spec. Scourge is finally setting some good condi benchmarks now, could it receive the nerf-hammer?

I'd wager they nerf condi Scourge into the ground to make room for this, just as they did initially with Condi Reaper for Scourge. Then over the next few years, they build it into a more well rounded Support Spec, like Reaper eventually became a serviceable power DPS, while Harbinger will become the pure cDPS spec. 

 

That said, I do hope I'm wrong in that assumption as I don't see an issue with having multiple specs of a profession filling the same role but different. It's just more variety and theme choice.

 

We will see.

A more mobile, higher DPS but low cleave and lower innate survivability than Reaper Power Spec for Harbinger would be cool too ofc (as well as a viable Hybrid). Just in general more player choice when it comes to Necro Specs would be good imo - rather than being shackled by innate mechanics such as have to have Shroud/Barrier, leading to over overperformance when damage is high, or lacklustre performance across the board when it isn't.

We have 3 lines in each Trait line to choose from for a reason. I wish Anet would use them more to differentiate builds and allow for different playstyles per spec, rather than filling them with fairly gamemode specific effects and passive modifiers.

 

On 8/11/2021 at 5:34 PM, SunTzu.4513 said:

Like the preview. I'm really hoping this time hopefully the new shroud will not complete busted/overpowered in any gamemode... Don't want a scourge part II rollercoaster for my main class...

 

Until they buff/rework the core weapons (and refocus a lot of the Shroud centric Traits with out of Shroud benefits), every Necro spec will have to have a broken, near impossible to balance, profession mechanic - otherwise it will just always be terrible, rather than flipflopping. 

 

I suppose this time they at least could split the power between the Mainhand Pistol and the Shroud (although invalidating Scepter in the process, and it's not like they managed that for GS and Reaper Shroud either) - but it will still suffer from severely lacklustre off-hands with no access to Torch for which the Shroud will have to make up for.

 

As long as Necro has Weapon Skills like Locust Swarm compared to something like Whirling Axe or Whirling Defense in the same slots (twice the Cool Down for 1/60th to 1/160th [depending on Power, Precision and Ferocity] of the damage and no combo interactions, let alone leaps, ports, stealth, clones, blocks, invulns, etc.), Shroud essentially needs to be broken to compensate. 

 

When a 0.5 second cast time skill at half a minute Cool Down is a DPS loss to press over just auto attacking, while offering very minor Utility (something which isn't atypical for Necro weapon skills), something needs to heavily compensate. Loading all that power into Shroud via bloated Shroud only Traits and such as band aid will always lead to the same issues on every Specialisation.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Nephalem.8921]

25 minutes ago, Excursion.9752 said:

My initial reaction is that this will be a pvp spec. Seems mobile and looks to have a float. I just hope the pistol has some skills that do multiple conditions while having a decent power attack.

 

I play necro a lot of WvW so the thought of using a float on a zerg makes me chuckle. I am going to guess it is going to be the elite utility skill with a long cool down. It will be nice to bring something only two other classes can do right now.

Oh nice another pvp spec is exactly what necro needed. I really hope its high dps and no meatshield but the weapon kinda only allows it to be a condi build.

[Obtena.7952]

Just speculation here ... this is a spec where you convert HP into LF though the 'pain' of inflicting blight by downing an elixir.

 

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is ... you take an elixir (so elixirs as the new spec skillset is pretty good assumption) ... you get 'blight' causing 'pain' (sounds like a self-damaging effect) . ... that enables or fuels some 'powers' (sounds like gaining LF and shroud skills). If that's the case, this could be or require a sustain-based build for the blight mechanic to work optimally. It doesn't sound like some kind of glassy high DPS spec ... ranged condi, self inflicted blight ... not sure. 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[azarhal.3086]

Gun-Fu Necro do drugs...

 

The e-spec feels like a mix of Engineer and Thief surrounded by green magic. It doesn't feel that Necromancy to me. 🤔 I do like the animations

 

The video gives me the impression this is a bursty single target melee power e-spec meant to be played ranged condi when dying from the Blight. I suspect it's just badly explained and people are just supposed to be in awe of the animations and the super long range gap closer...

 

I also suspect it's going to fair very poorly unless the Necro's lifesteals and all 3 core off-hands are reworked...

[Nephalem.8921]

Necro has offhands? I thought only scourge can use offhands while reaper is stuck with mh only

[Asum.4960]

6 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Necro has offhands? I thought only scourge can use offhands while reaper is stuck with mh only

You can choose the shape of your Stat-stick, that's a pretty cool class feature, no? 😉 

[Wintermute.5408]

46 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Just speculation here ... this is a spec where you convert HP into LF though the 'pain' of inflicting blight by downing an elixir.

 

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is ... you take an elixir (so elixirs as the new spec skillset is pretty good assumption) ... you get 'blight' causing 'pain' (sounds like a self-damaging effect) . ... that enables or fuels some 'powers' (sounds like gaining LF and shroud skills). If that's the case, this could be or require a sustain-based build for the blight mechanic to work optimally. It doesn't sound like some kind of glassy high DPS spec ... ranged condi, self inflicted blight ... not sure. 

That's actually a cool idea. We already had different shroud, we had no shroud. Would be cool to run with no lifeforce, and all the garbage associated with its generation.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Wintermute.5408 said:

That's actually a cool idea. We already had different shroud, we had no shroud. Would be cool to run with no lifeforce, and all the garbage associated with its generation.

Just thinking more ... I didn't consider the idea that blight could impact LF instead of HP ... which would make Harbringer work like core/Reaper with a variable LF decay rate depending on 'elixirs'  used. Anyways, sounds like we definitely have a departure from the other three spec mechanics ... or at least I hope so. 

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Looks fun as hell. Can't wait to try it next week. 

[Anchoku.8142]

Observations

 

1. Shroud transform -F1 may be "drink a potion" 

2. Shroud that harms the Necro. May be like LF decay in core and Reaper or may actually reduce health.

3. Use of LF to power attacks in shroud is nothing new but what if it consumes health like Corruption skills often do with Master of Corruption?

4. Elixers may be shroud skills for use while transformed and as utility skills.

5. Bottle symbol means something else will get the bullet symbol and either a pistol or rifle.

6. Corrosive a new condition?

7. Blight a euphemism for self-inflicted damage?

8. Is this a hybrid power-condi spec like Reaper's Deathly Chill, except with less of the cleave Reaper is famous for?

9. Lots of posturing suggests lengthy activation times or after-cast.

10. F2 Dark Path-like skill looks like it is easy to dodge. Mobility skills appear slow and well telegraphed.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Anchoku.8142

[Asum.4960]

16 minutes ago, Anchoku.8142 said:

Observations

 

1. Shroud transform -F1 may be "drink a potion" 

2. Shroud that harms the Necro. May be like LF decay in core and Reaper or may actually reduce health.

3. Use of shroud to power attacks in shroud is nothing new but what if it consumes health like Corruption skills often do with Master of Corruption?

4. Elixers may be shroud skills for use while transformed.

5. Bottle symbol means something else will get the bullet symbol and either a pistol or rifle.

6. Corrosive a new condition?

7. Blight a euphemism for self-inflicted damage?

8. Is this a hybrid power-condi spec like Reaper's Deathly Chill, except with less of the cleave Reaper is famous for?

9. Lots of posturing suggests lengthy activation times or after-cast.

10. F2 Dark Path-like skill looks like it is easy to dodge. Mobility skills appear slow and well telegraphed.

As for 6. and 8., I'm guessing the "Noxious Corrosive Bullets" refers to a Poison centric condi spec. 

Could also include some Weakness as defensive measure, along with the shown Float, Stun and Mobility (as well as DM synergy with Putrid Defense and such), rather than static Shroud/Barrier. 

 

You can also see the enemy getting tinted green after being impacted by the bullets, indicating Poison.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Goettel.4389]

Harbinger? Brings har har?

Edited August 11, 2021 by Goettel.4389

[LucianDK.8615]

Looks -quite- promising!

I do wonder if we would use scepter on weapon swap. But dagger offhand with warnhorn on swap seems likely to me.  Dagger oh for extra condition transfer as it looks to be needed.

[Ragi.7291]

Let's summarize, we have a spe that uses a ranged weapon with a shroud in close combat, where is the synergy of the class weapon?
Re-use of the basic shroud dyed in green.
Re-use of the mantra of the guardian dyed in green.
Re-use of the shroud name of the harbinger of the scourge.
Re-use of the engineer's elixir for the lore.

All  shouts of this game (outside heal skill) are instant except on the reaper who has shouts that they must incant.
All the mantra are instant so the harbinger should incant them...
Since there is no logic in the game.

That goes, it did not take you much time to make this spe
Otherwise for the Necro FF14 releases the reaper in its next extension.

In brief we listen to our community, nobody wanted the gun on the necro, there are already necromancers in the game who use other weapons.
NO, no we're going to make something really crappy, that comes out of nowhere by reusing everything we can because we can't balance the class.

Disgusted 🤮

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Ragi.7291

[Wintermute.5408]

What I love most about any video game community in history, is the ability to gain deep balance and gameplay insights from footage that doesn't contain any.

[Anchoku.8142]

What if Arenanet doubles-down on self-inflicting damage so skills lower health and dps increases as health drops? 

 

It is pure speculation, of course, but I can imagine the dev's thinking, 'Players thought Master of Corruption was difficult to use but we really like the concept.'

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

3 minutes ago, Anchoku.8142 said:

What if Arenanet doubles-down on self-inflicting damage so skills lower health and dps increases as health drops? 

The question would be how long would lower health be sustainable for for optimal DPS. It's gonna be a serious balancing act if this was the case and I've seen how some people react to ANet's balancing of the game lel

[mazut.4296]

There is only 1 skill that use the "sacrifice" mechanic. Its doubtful to have a whole spec around self harm. Years back devs said they don't see "sacrifice" working in GW2 as mechanic. Especially in pvp.

[Xaylin.1860]

Rewatched it a couple of times. That's what I could get form it. Of course, it's just an educated guess.

 

Overall Harbinger in short

• Agile condi and cc/debuff focused spec (but apparently lack of Fear)
• Combo finishers (projectile, probably even blast)
• Melee Shroud, maybe single target AA but with area effects on other skills
• 1200 MH range, probably single target
• Elixirs are most likely for self-buffing in some way

 

I actually found this video to be more exciting than the Virtuoso preview we got on stream. While the non-Clone mechanic is a big deal, everything else was very 'meh' when it comes to novelties for the class. The mobility on Harbinger alone looks very new for Necromancers.

 

Harbinger Shroud

Others might disagree, but to me, it seems to be another Death/Reaper Shroud, nothing mechanically 'new' or Scourge-ish. I came to the conclusion because the Harbinger transformed two times (first at about 0:12) and always keeps the Shroud animation while performing the non-Elixir non-Pistol attacks. Harbinger also seems to still gain LF when killing foes so self-harm most likely isn't the only way to gain power - if it is at all. Of course, Life Force (or Denfense) might work differently than with older Shrouds. Interestingly enough, Shroud skills look kind of power based. For Shroud-skills:

1. 3-chain melee AA with multi-hit on #3
2. Dash with pbae effect at the end
3. Leap or Channel
4. Leap or Channel
5. Leap or Channel

 

Very unsure with the placement. Here are some pro and cons.

 

The Leap looks like it has a blast finisher at the end. It could also be CC but there is no effect on the monster. Leaping towards the Monster could be the inverse strategy of gaining Stability and taking the hit. If it packs some damage, it would also work well with the 'on death recharge' of Dread - which could put it on #3. However, jumping somewhere would also open up very nice gameplay when combined with Transfusion (teleport allies) which could easily put it on #4. The case for #5 would be similar to #3: It being a damage move with mobility for the Necro instead of damage with hindering your foes mobility (Immobilize or Stun). I'm leaning towards either #3 or #5. Note: Could easily be switched with the Dash.

 

The Channel - haha, them mummies on the jade spikes - is a float which is pretty nice. CC has been on all skills, #3-5 in the past. However, #4 might be more likely due to the cast time and the potential interaction with Transfusion (pulses). However, the CC might as well be an indicator for it being on #5. Leaning to either #4 or #5 with a tendency to #4.

 

MH Pistol

Looks like rather straight forward 1200 ranged damage. The corrosive bullets - as others have suggested - most likely refers to Poison, Weakness and maybe Vulnerability. I also think that it is important to point out Necros might receive a Daze on MH which makes MH Pistol/WH the weapon set with most CC. In general, Harbingers might get some sweet damage out of Insidious Disruption.

 

Elixirs

Not really much to get from the trailer, too be honest. They seem to be self-only. They seem to buff the Harbinger while at least applying Blight. We can't even say for sure wether there are any additional negative effects. I'm hoping for more unconventional buffs aside from Might (yawn...) like maybe Unblockable-charges.

 

Blight

We don't get too many specifics on this one either. The only objective facts we have:

• Elixirs cause Blight
• Blight empowers the Harbinger while having negative side-effects

'... while affected by Blight' when referring to Harbinger Shroud to me means: Blight will most likely power up Shroud skills (like Heat on PF). But by the wording we can't really tell if the buff part also affects skills outside of Shroud. For example, if Harbingers Shroud ramps up Blight to make you stronger while debuffing yourself in some way, Elixirs might just be a way to ramp up damage boni for Shroud-skills in advance. Now, for the negative effects... we can't really tell at all. 'Pain' could be any kind of debuff or as others mentioned even health loss. Although health loss feels weird when considering traits like Unholy Sanctury. It might as well just be something like Poison and -% healing effectiveness which would make sense if the Harbinger is supposed to be a more volatile and fragile spec.

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Xaylin.1860

[Mungo Zen.9364]

I am glad there is something other than Mesmer to talk about, although I don't know if this really excites me, it was enough of a tease to pique my interest.

[Mediahead.3542]

Alright, I've officially decided to make my next necro an asura!

[Crikk.3854]

Necros already have corruption and tons of condi builds.  Since that seems to be what Harbinger does... why???

I guess I'd had my hopes up for a Ritualist kind of spec, either with Spirits or Ashes (kits).  So since this is nothing like what I was hoping for, I'm even more disappointed.  When I found out the weapon was pistol, and given what they did with Virtuoso, I thought "maybe they'll turn life force into discrete 'bullets' that you fire with the F1-5 skills".  Would be sort of like Scourge, but different enough.  But... nope.  

Granted, it's only a roughly 1 minute video clip, but right now I'm finding it hard to get even a little excited.  I hope it turns out to be more interesting than it looks.

If not, I guess my main will just keep playing Reaper and hope the next one is better.

[Xaylin.1860]

45 minutes ago, Ragi.7291 said:

Let's summarize, we have a spe that uses a ranged weapon with a shroud in close combat, where is the synergy of the class weapon?
Re-use of the basic shroud dyed in green.
Re-use of the mantra of the guardian dyed in green.
Re-use of the shroud name of the harbinger of the scourge.
Re-use of the engineer's elixir for the lore.

All the shouts of the game are instant except on the reaper who has shouts that they must incant.
All the mantra are instant so the harbinger should incant them...
Since there is no logic in the game.

 

 

• Death Shroud is garbage because Necromancers can use Daggers?
• Jade colored Shroud is garbage because keeping the class' main color is... garbage?
• Rotating Marks are garbage because in reality they are undercover re-dyed Guardian Mantras?
• Berserker is super garbage because of already existing stat set?
• Elixirs are garbage even though existing Utilities have been given to other classes since HoT?
• Bonus: Jade is garbage because of Shiro on Revenant?

 

You also might want to re-check facts on Shouts. Although I don't even know how this affects Harbinger? Salty about Reaper as well? But Reaper is garbage anyway because of Soul Reaping and Shouts being on Warriors and Guardian? Is that the sentiment?

 

I mean... everyone can be salty at times and it is your right to personally be disappointed by the Harbinger teaser. However, when reading about the issues you see with it, I honestly wonder what you were hoping for?

 

[aymnad.9023]

I am waiting for the full presentation and more details, in 1min and without the tooltip it is hard to get an opinion. The animations are great, elixirs fit perfectly but the pistol and agile looking skills did not attract me that much.

Edited August 11, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[RabbitUp.8294]

19 minutes ago, Crikk.3854 said:

When I found out the weapon was pistol, and given what they did with Virtuoso, I thought "maybe they'll turn life force into discrete 'bullets' that you fire with the F1-5 skills". 

That would have never been the case, because elite spec weapons are not manadatory and don't directly interact with the profession mechanic.

 

This is still gw2, you are still able to equip other weapons.