Necro Elite Spec: The Harbinger

[Teratus.2859]

21 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

My point wasn't that Desert Shroud is a traditional Shroud, but rather that Harbinger Shroud might not be either. 

Maybe this time around it does get it's own skill bar again, but as a first not replaced or fueled by Life Force, more akin to Holo's Photon Forge, but rather than managing Heat, it's called Blight - with a similar benefit and risk relationship to having more Heat/Blight.

 

Just something to keep in mind.

I got what you meant the first time 🙂

I was just listing my requirements for what I feel a shroud should be in order to be classed as a proper  shroud ^^

I do actually expect this new shroud to function more like the Desert Shroud tbh providing a bunch of F skills like shades instead of a proper transformation, a second life bar and a new set of weapon skills.

I'll honestly be a bit surprised if they do go back and give it a shroud like Core and Reaper has since so many players in the competitive scene often moan about how tanky that alone makes Necromancer players.

Atm though I don't have any interest in this new Necro spec, the theme doesn't appeal to me at all.. it feels more like a Necromancer/Death Magicy themed spec for the Engineer more than it does a new spec for Necromancer.
Not getting the right vibes from it lol

[Asum.4960]

10 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

I'll honestly be a bit surprised if they do go back and give it a shroud like Core and Reaper has since so many players in the competitive scene often moan about how tanky that alone makes Necromancer players.

Atm though I don't have any interest in this new Necro spec, the theme doesn't appeal to me at all.. it feels more like a Necromancer/Death Magicy themed spec for the Engineer more than it does a new spec for Necromancer.
Not getting the right vibes from it lol

Shroud is just an absolutely nightmare to balance, since it represents both the majority of Necro's defense as well as offense in one single mechanic and resource (which is imo awful design). 

Additionally, it's a non scaling mechanic. Aka, buff other classes damage, and Necro - via getting it's non scaling Shroud depleted faster, loses both a huge chunk of Defense as well as Offense, without being touched itself at all - or the other way around. 

Basically any change to balance affects Necro with Shroud doubly so, resulting in it's constant flipflopping from overperformance to underperformance and on. 

For other classes that's much less so a problem, buff/nerf damage over all, and Thieves mobility is still mobility, a Warrior's Blocks are still a block, etc.. They may need adjustments, but nothing like Necro.

They don't suddenly lose the majority of both their defense as well as damage just because something suddenly does more damage to them or vice versa, become a tanky powerhouse. 

 

Additionally, as a GW1 player, Shroud never felt like Necro to me to begin with, as that was a, imo poor, GW2 invention that GW1 Necro didn't have at all, which is imo responsible for most of the problems Necro has been suffering from in the almost decade since in GW2. 

So as far as the can move away from traditional Shroud while still having to make it work with Trait interactions and such, the better - to me personally. But I can see how it could be jarring to GW2 only Necros.

 

As for the theme, I'm not super thrilled either, esp. about the Pistol, but hey, will see how it plays and if it's the right amount of fun and effective. The skills shown in the trailer at least look mostly very much so high magic with a dash of Alchemy to me, rather than focusing heavily on the Gunslinger aspect, which I'm glad for.

[Teratus.2859]

12 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Shroud is just an absolutely nightmare to balance, since it represents both the majority of Necro's defense as well as offense in one single mechanic and resource (which is imo awful design). 

Additionally, it's a non scaling mechanic. Aka, buff other classes damage, and Necro - via getting it's non scaling Shroud depleted faster, loses both a huge chunk of Defense as well as Offense, without being touched itself at all - or the other way around. 

Basically any change to balance affects Necro with Shroud doubly so, resulting in it's constant flipflopping from overperformance to underperformance and on. 

For other classes that's much less so a problem, buff/nerf damage over all, and Thieves mobility is still mobility, a Warrior's Blocks are still a block, etc.. They may need adjustments, but nothing like Necro.

They don't suddenly lose the majority of both their defense as well as damage just because something suddenly does more damage to them or vice versa, become a tanky powerhouse. 

 

Additionally, as a GW1 player, Shroud never felt like Necro to me to begin with, as that was a, imo poor, GW2 invention that GW1 Necro didn't have at all, which is imo responsible for most of the problems Necro has been suffering from in the almost decade since in GW2. 

So as far as the can move away from traditional Shroud while still having to make it work with Trait interactions and such, the better - to me personally. But I can see how it could be jarring to GW2 only Necros.

I don't disagree with any of that lol

For me shroud has always felt like an enhancement of what something like Spectral Armour should be.. even Lich form as well to a degree.
I'm in the camp that supports removing/replacing Lich form as an Elite Skill and reworking it into it's own shroud instead.

You are right though it's definitely a Gw2 thing, I'm a Gw1 player as well and Necro was my main through the first game.
Long live OG spiteful spirit and Hex spells!!!! lol
 

12 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

As for the theme, I'm not super thrilled either, esp. about the Pistol, but hey, will see how it plays and if it's the right amount of fun and effective. The skills shown in the trailer at least look mostly very much so high magic with a dash of Alchemy to me, rather than focusing heavily on the Gunslinger aspect, which I'm glad for.

True, although that massive jump skill.. I can't with that one XD
Just wtf hahaha 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Yea, we saw just two skills on the spec including player movement, that would make it a more mobile Necro, not a mobility anything compared to anything else - but that can still be appreciated. 

 

Again, my point here is that people shouldn't assume based on that video that Harbringer will be more mobile than what is currently available. Likely different, uncertain about more. Again, what are you defining as 'mobility' and 'more' of it? 

 

In fact, unless it was directly stated, no one should assume anything about how it will work, unless it's purely for the fun of speculating what it could be. 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

Additionally, as a GW1 player, Shroud never felt like Necro to me to begin with, as that was a, imo poor, GW2 invention that GW1 Necro didn't have at all, which is imo responsible for most of the problems Necro has been suffering from in the almost decade since in GW2. 

There were so many way they could have made GW2's necromancer... They choose a necromancer with warrior's endure pain as a mechanism... It still kitten me off 10 year later...

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

13 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

There were so many way they could have made GW2's necromancer... They choose a necromancer with warrior's endure pain as a mechanism... It still kitten me off 10 year later...

If it makes you feel any better I'd gladly take it back.

[Asum.4960]

45 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, my point here is that people shouldn't assume based on that video that Harbringer will be more mobile than what is currently available. Likely different, uncertain about more. Again, what are you defining as 'mobility' and 'more' of it? 

 

In fact, unless it was directly stated, no one should assume anything about how it will work, unless it's purely for the fun of speculating what it could be. 

 

 

Mobility means skills that allow for enhanced traversal, either enhancing speed of traversal in forms of gap closers and/or escapes such as no air time dashes and leaps, or in form of ability of traversal, which allow for movement not possible via conventional movement, such a blinks, teleports, leaps with height gain or portals (aka teleporting up a cliff, leaping over a gap, anything that can't be cleared walking or jumping). 

 

Core has one Teleport with Dark Path/Pursuit which both needs a target and setup (Targeted Gap closer only, but limited terrain skip ability if enemy is present and can be targeted/hit), Reaper has one freely useable leap with no air time (gap closer and escape, but no terrain skips), Scourge got one ground target portal with Sand Swell (suffers from valid path issues as well as high cast time, but allows for gap close/escape as well as minor traversal ability increases). 

That's one single ability containing some form of movement for every Necromancer Spec so far.

 

Harbinger, as shown in the video, is getting both a Dash ability as well as a leap with air time, which means twice as many mobility abilities, in addition to core Utilities, as any Necro Spec before. 

The nature and usefulness of these is still to be revealed meaning, if the Dash forward is mechanically closer to a Death's Charge or Phase Traversal - targeted or not etc., if the leap is akin to Wing's of Resolve, aka, does the height gain allow for terrain skips/increases in traversal ability). 

But in any case, it's twice the mobility abilities of any other Necro spec, the only question is how much utility they will have beyond that fact. 

 

And ofc talking about that is purely for the fun of speculation. No one is claiming authority over what these skills do precisely, just that they have clearly shown twice as many skills including movement than Core, Reaper or Scourge got.

 

27 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

There were so many way they could have made GW2's necromancer... They choose a necromancer with warrior's endure pain as a mechanism... It still kitten me off 10 year later...

 

Yea, I miss the hordes of Minions, debilitating Curses that you can combine in interesting ways and proper Blood Magic with significant life drains and heals. 

Getting just minor shadows of each of those themes (limited and underperforming minions not worth playing around, generic conditions and extremely minor Life Leeches) while having the majority of the profession revolve around the highly problematic Shroud mechanic wasn't the best outcome.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Anchoku.8142]

Maybe the preview videos were meant to be flashy but the amount of time it takes to complete the skills shown seemed long.

[Dadnir.5038]

7 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

If it makes you feel any better I'd gladly take it back.

Well, they can always give warrior's endure pain barrier instead of the few second of invulnerability to strike damage.

Thought, GW2 warrior's own mechanism definitely remind of the warrior in GW1.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 minute ago, Anchoku.8142 said:

Maybe the preview videos were meant to be flashy but the amount of time it takes to complete the skills shown seemed long.

Well, we will know in 7 hours... What's sure is that the virtuoso is a lot more impressive in the teaser than it was when they showed it.

[Dadnir.5038]

31 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Yea, I miss the hordes of Minions, debilitating Curses that you can combine in interesting ways and proper Blood Magic with significant life drains and heals. 

Getting just minor shadows of each of those themes (limited and underperforming minions not worth playing around, generic conditions and extremely minor Life Leeches) while having the majority of the profession revolve around the highly problematic Shroud mechanic wasn't the best outcome.

 

I miss the support Mark of pain, Blood is power even orders... I miss Blood bond, putrid bile, rising bile and icy vein, Gosh! I loved those spells. GW2 watered down all the necromancer's spells.

[azarhal.3086]

1 hour ago, Anchoku.8142 said:

Maybe the preview videos were meant to be flashy but the amount of time it takes to complete the skills shown seemed long.

 

A few parts of the video was in slow-motion. The Harbringer is described as a "fast-paced, frenetic combat style" in MassivelyOP press release.

 

Although, they compare that to the standard Necro that is basically a sloth, so...Harbinger might still be slower paced than most of the profession/e-spec in the game still.

[Asum.4960]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

I miss the support Mark of pain, Blood is power even orders... I miss Blood bond, putrid bile, rising bile and icy vein, Gosh! I loved those spells. GW2 watered down all the necromancer's spells.

Yea, I mainly miss Curse and Minion gameplay. Combining stuff like Spiteful Spirit, Reckless Haste, Price of Failure, Insidious Parasite and Enfeebling Blood to turn Mobs and Players into rapidly flailing AoE/self Bombs was just so satisfying. 

Still odd to me that Anet themed Confusion almost wholly to the Mesmer because of Empathy and the like, not giving Necro a single access to it, when Necro was almost just as much a punishment and control caster. 

 

Also the whole actual gameplay loop of slowly raising and then maintaining a proper minion army, managing it's composition, etc., "Here, have a handful of quirky minions that don't really do much and that you don't interact with" just doesn't scratch that itch at all.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Asum.4960

[draxynnic.3719]

55 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Yea, I mainly miss Curse and Minion gameplay. Combining stuff like Spiteful Spirit, Reckless Haste, Price of Failure, Insidious Parasite and Enfeebling Blood to turn Mobs and Players into rapidly flailing AoE/self Bombs was just so satisfying. 

Still odd to me that Anet themed Confusion almost wholly to the Mesmer just because of Empathy, not giving Necro a single access to it, when Necro was just as much, if not more so a punishment and control caster. 

 

Also the whole actual gameplay loop of slowly raising and then maintaining a proper minion army, managing it's composition, etc., "Here, have a handful of quirky minions that don't really do much and that you don't interact with" just doesn't scratch that itch at all.

Empathy, Backfire, Visions of Regret, and enough 'your next attack or spell will fail and hurt you or your allies' hexes to fill a bar with some to spare. Necromancer had the kings of punishing fast attacks (SS or SV with Reckless Haste), but mesmer had a stronger focus on punishment hexes as part of their identity overall.

 

I could certainly concur with necro getting some Confusion as a nod to those abilities - but by the same measure the profession based around manipulating emotions and scaring enemies to death through illusions probably deserves Fear.

[Asum.4960]

2 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Empathy, Backfire, Visions of Regret, and enough 'your next attack or spell will fail and hurt you or your allies' hexes to fill a bar with some to spare. Necromancer had the kings of punishing fast attacks (SS or SV with Reckless Haste), but mesmer had a stronger focus on punishment hexes as part of their identity overall.

 

I could certainly concur with necro getting some Confusion as a nod to those abilities - but by the same measure the profession based around manipulating emotions and scaring enemies to death through illusions probably deserves Fear.

Yea, I'm not disagreeing with Mesmer having Confusion or it being a major part of it even, absolutely, just that they got it almost exclusively without a single one instance on Necro. Similarly, fairly low Weakness access. 

Mesmer got a fairly high amount of dazes, with interrupts and such having been a big part of Mesmer as control caster, but Necro imo lost pretty much all exploration of their themes to Shroud, save for Scourge which at least very slightly filled that Hexer role with Torment.

Likewise, I wouldn't mind Fear on Mesmer either thematically, yes.

[SummonMinion.7306]

The preview makes it seem like we got the Van Helsing/Plaguedoctor theme out of shroud but a Jiangshi/Martial Arts theme in shroud. A weird combo but I don't care as long as it feels good in combat.

[Roda.7468]

I'd like to see some better communication of the blight max hp reduction than the negative number and the buff, as the numbers can get a bit jumbly on the fly.

 

Maybe have some swirly green and black goo bubbling up from the bottom of the hp bar/orb as a physical manifestation of the lowered cap like how barrier has its yellow overlay?

[Tseison.4659]

I find it interesting and not in a good way that they gave Mesmers old Signet of Inspiration effect onto one of the Harbingers traits to share boons...

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Boonshare and pulsing quickness...well necro's have no fear of being left out of group content lol

[KrHome.1920]

I am having a "shut up and take my money" moment right now after that harbinger showcase.

 

Holy sh** it has everything, power potential, condi potential, boon support potential, mobility potential, glass canon potential, bruiser potential...

[Anchoku.8142]

Harbinger is heavy on boons so Necro might use concentration equipment... Finally!

 

Also, balance patch on Tuesday will change Scourge's shroud to Sandstorm Shroud.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Anchoku.8142

[Xanhawk.3806]

I would happily relink anyone taking notes on Harbinger during the preview to the first post as I can't watch it while at work to update it with info like the Virtuoso thread.

[Dadnir.5038]

A bit disappointed that it's torment yet again but, the spec look both very different than the common necromancer and very strong in damage and support (It will probably need some tuning down in support).

[Anchoku.8142]

7 minutes ago, Xanhawk.3806 said:

I would happily relink anyone taking notes on Harbinger during the preview to the first post as I can't watch it while at work to update it with info like the Virtuoso thread.

First note is skills 6 - 10 give boons and are elixers. Also, one trait will make Harbinger a boon-share support build.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Anchoku.8142

[Jijimuge.4675]

Just now, Dadnir.5038 said:

A bit disappointed that it's torment yet again but, the spec look both very different than the common necromancer and very strong in damage and support (It will probably need some tuning down in support).

Runes of Tormenting will be absolutely bonkers with this too!