Downstate is Backwards

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

First off, let me say that I'm actually a fan of downstate.  I think it's a clever mechanic that allows for significant counterplay to burst / focus tactics.

 

That said, I also think that Downstate is done poorly and contaminated by lots of gimmicks and cheese plays that make it un-fun and un-true to its original purpose.

 

For starters, it is much too easy to hand-rez a downed player.  It's positively ridiculous that a single player rezzing can out-heal one or more players spamming high damaging attacks on the downed player.  As a thought experiment, grab 2 of your buddies.  Take a baseball bat and start beating on the friend you like least.  Then ask your other friend to start kissing his owwies, putting band-aids on him, and whatever while you keep pummeling the dude.  See if he gets up.  Absurd?  Obviously.  And yet this is exactly what the current downstate is like.

 

The practical outcome of all of this is that the Downstate heavily favors the defending team (the team trying to rez) over the attacking team.  But why is this the case?  The downed player already "lost" by letting himself get downed in the first place.  Why does his team get the advantage in trying to get him back up?  Shouldn't the onus be on the defending team to push the attackers back so that they can protect their buddy and then get the rez?  But the current conditions allow the defenders to rez IN SPITE OF the attackers still being present and actively cleaving the downed player.  This is the reverse of how it should be.

 

Secondly, there are entirely too many gimmicks to get around being interactable/interruptible when attempting a stomp (shadowstep, various forms of invuln stomp, stealth, etc).  This makes it decidedly easier for some classes to stomp than others, and it gets around the whole point of having the downstate in the first place.

 

Proposed changes:

1. Hand Rezzing heal rate is reduced by 50%.  Self-rez (bandage wounds) remains the same.
2. Stomp action is interruptible my moving or using any skill (you are, of course, still able to move and use skills; it just cancels the stomp).  
3. Stomping reveals you, removes all stability and aegis, and exits certain modes that grant invuln (e.g., Engi's elixir s or Ele's mist form). 
   1. Modes like Berserk or Beast Mode are not ended because they don't grant any undue advantage when attempting a stomp.  Rampage would not be ended because the stability would be stripped while attempting the stomp.
   2. this would probably be accomplished by an effect (call it "Executioner" if you like) that you get when you start a stomp and that applies the conditions listed above.  

 

The outcome of these changes would probably push people to cleave more and would force the defending team to play more aggressively rather than relying on scourge  (or guardian) to barrier up and hand rez in the middle of combat.

[Zyreva.1078]

Ressing is too strong and definitely needs some hefty nerfs but i don't see why stomping has to be removed - and that's basically what you are requesting with your suggestion of making stomping players defenseless. I don't see an issue with safe stomping since most of the time it does require cd investment and there is still counterplay possible (stealthing/moving the downed body/boon rip/rez utility).

Edited August 13, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Spellhunter.9675]

12 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

As a thought experiment, grab 2 of your buddies.  Take a baseball bat and start beating on the friend you like least.  Then ask your other friend to start kissing his owwies, putting band-aids on him, and whatever while you keep pummeling the dude.  See if he gets up.  Absurd?  Obviously.  And yet this is exactly what the current downstate is like.

Take flamethrower and put your friend on fire. Now make him shout "Shake it off!". Will it help him? - no. Conclussion? - nerf condi cleanse. L o g i k

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

7 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Ressing is too strong and definitely needs some hefty nerfs but i don't see why stomping has to be removed - and that's basically what you are requesting with your suggestion of making stomping players defenseless. I don't see an issue with safe stomping since most of the time it does require cd investment and there is still counterplay possible (stealthing/moving the downed body/boon rip/rez utility).

I would argue that Stomping isn't supposed to be safe.  Stomping is supposed to be the expedient alternative to cleaving the body: you get the kill faster in most cases...but the tradeoff is that you are stuck in a 4s channel and have the opportunity to be interrupted.  That's why most downstates have a CC available; its part of the whole "Fight for your life!" idea behind the downstate.  Safe stomping (esp invuln stomp) gets around that and, imo, violates the whole idea of the downstate as I understand it.

 

To be fair, this is just my opinion.  Your argument that safe stomping does have a trade-off because it requires a CD is valid.  It's not my preference, to be sure, but reasonable folks can disagree.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

just nerf hand rezzing and rez traits

[jonesy.1470]

easy fix for this is to make posion effect downstate rez eff by 66%

[anduriell.6280]

In wvw there was a similar issue with defeated players being hand-ressed by the Zerg. 
The approach Anet took was to disable hand-ressing during combat of defeated players (fully killed)

 

They just need to do the same for downed state and you will see how everything is magically fixed. 
 

And keep in mind this is only valid for wvw/pvp in pve you can ress defeated players like normal. Although strikes/raids with a hard mode where you can not hand-ress downed / defeated would be a huge improvement. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

19 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Proposed changes:

1. Hand Rezzing heal rate is reduced by 50%.  Self-rez (bandage wounds) remains the same.
2. Stomp action is interruptible my moving or using any skill (you are, of course, still able to move and use skills; it just cancels the stomp).  
3. Stomping reveals you, removes all stability and aegis, and exits certain modes that grant invuln (e.g., Engi's elixir s or Ele's mist form). 
   1. Modes like Berserk or Beast Mode are not ended because they don't grant any undue advantage when attempting a stomp.  Rampage would not be ended because the stability would be stripped while attempting the stomp.
   2. this would probably be accomplished by an effect (call it "Executioner" if you like) that you get when you start a stomp and that applies the conditions listed above.  

 

The outcome of these changes would probably push people to cleave more and would force the defending team to play more aggressively rather than relying on scourge  (or guardian) to barrier up and hand rez in the middle of combat.

 

As a collective. this is a hard buff to the already strong "Lick Wounds" in ranger downstate and would essentially guarantee they can't be defeated by anything glassier than them, since they have 1 to 3 ccs for use at any time during their downstate and Lick Wounds doesn't count as a hard rez.

 

No, unless you nerf Lick Wounds too. 

 

Quote

Hand Rezzing heal rate is reduced by 50%.  Self-rez (bandage wounds) remains the same.

 

This is objectively fine. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Quote

As a collective. this is a hard buff to the already strong "Lick Wounds" in ranger downstate and would essentially guarantee they can't be defeated by anything glassier than them, since they have 1 to 3 ccs for use at any time during their downstate and Lick Wounds doesn't count as a hard rez.

 

No, unless you nerf Lick Wounds too.

Good catch.  Lick wounds should absolutely be nerfed 50% too.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

This harkens back to my beef with the Feb2020 patch.

They nerfed a lot of damage, but then somehow missed res speed and downstate health totals.

 

So, nerf rez speed and nerf the downstate health. Downstate would then be in relative balance with the current meta. If the meta goes back to high damage, then rez speed and downstate health would have to go back up as well.

[witcher.3197]

I think rezing is fine just the utilities that rez need bigger CDs.

Edited August 13, 2021 by witcher.3197

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I wouldn't make stomping harder.  If I take a bunch of gimmicky utilities just to stomp better, I expect them to work.

 

I've encountered this issue in WvW quite often.  The hardest part of any outnumbered fight is that you can't just win.  You have to win by a large margin.  Large enough that you have enough CCs and burst skills that you can interrupt rezzes and burst down the downed.  I can't count how many 2v1s I would've won, if it weren't for the fact that I used all of my high damaging skills killing one of my two targets.  

[Svarty.8019]

On 8/12/2021 at 10:34 PM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Secondly, there are entirely too many gimmicks to get around being interactable/interruptible when attempting a stomp (shadowstep, various forms of invuln stomp, stealth, etc).

Stealth stomp was neat when it was one of those things that someone did once as a crazy abuse of mechanics in a Tournament one time, but now it's common, cheesey, frustrating and lame.

[Zyreva.1078]

On 8/13/2021 at 6:22 PM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I would argue that Stomping isn't supposed to be safe.  Stomping is supposed to be the expedient alternative to cleaving the body: you get the kill faster in most cases...but the tradeoff is that you are stuck in a 4s channel and have the opportunity to be interrupted.  That's why most downstates have a CC available; its part of the whole "Fight for your life!" idea behind the downstate.  Safe stomping (esp invuln stomp) gets around that and, imo, violates the whole idea of the downstate as I understand it.

 

To be fair, this is just my opinion.  Your argument that safe stomping does have a trade-off because it requires a CD is valid.  It's not my preference, to be sure, but reasonable folks can disagree.

Stomping isn't safe a lot of of the time anyway, even if defensive cds are used. Unless invulns are used - which are a major cd investment and still can get countered by fast rezzing, and moving or stealthing the downed body - you are very vulnerable during the stomp channel, even when using stab or stealth or blinds or ports to "secure" the finish. Forcing a player into complete defenselessness for attempting to finish a player makes stomping pretty much impossible if other enemies are arround. Don't think that's desireable. Cleaving shouldn't be the only way to kill players.