Confusion is being nerfed. Harbinger will replace StM chrono. Rip pve mesmer.

[Genesis.5169]

I don't know why you guys continue to do it, just retire your mesmer guys a series of decisions in the past has confirmed anet is willing to let mesmers burn due to community hatred the class will never be as good as any of the other classes by design now, and it will still garner hate.

 

I suggest you all re roll or quit.

How ever these changes remain to be seen, i'm hoping for the best but i expect the worst.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Genesis.5169
Clarity.

[Moradorin.6217]

1 hour ago, Genesis.5169 said:

I don't know why you guys continue to do it, just retire you mesmer guys a series of decisions in the past has confirmed anet is willing to let mesmers burn due to community hatred the class will never be as good as any of the other classes by design now, and it will still garner hate.

 

I suggest you all re roll or quit.

How ever these changes remain to be seen, i'm hoping for the best but i expect the worst.

I think many Mesmer mains have moved on, but people still post here and I think most of us still do play Mesmer some for the niche things its still good for: TL & Mathias, Escort Tower and some of us still enjoy the challenge of playing WvW/PvP with a less than optimal class due to familiarity and habbit. However, I would say I play Thief, Rev, Necro, Engi, Ranger most of the time these days. They are all quite effective in multiple game modes.

[superkaratemonkey.7408]

On 8/13/2021 at 2:50 PM, Curunen.8729 said:

How many times has confusion been changed back and forth? I kind of lost track. :S

yea its really confusing at this point

[Infusion.7149]

3 hours ago, Heika.5403 said:

When your benchmarks reference were released?  Snowcrows already update its dps table in their discord:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/744584060319432714/875893138437341264/unknown.png

 

For Riddle Axe/Torch Mirage lose  2.5k on VG,  1k on Gorse, 3.5K on Caim,  1.5K on MO, 1K on  QTP,  2.1k on Sabir,  4.5k on SH, 6.2K on Nikare and tops 7K loss on Kenut.

For Riddle Staff Mirage  lose 3K on VG, 1K on Gorse,  4.3K on Caim,  2K on MO,  1k on QTP, 3.5K on Sabir, 6.6k on SH,  7.5K on Nikare and tops 8.4K loss on Kenut.

 

So at the end it seems that i was right and even in an Axe Mirage build we end losing dps.  And for an average player, lose 2-3k in general was a right approach,  even more in mobs or bosses that attack more often. So as expected and usual... They wanted to sell us the nerf with nice words and make us believe that the change is for the better. And there will be some who believe it and swallow it.

That's a projection and includes confusion.

 

The video I linked is as of last month after nerf not including confusion changes in the future patch Tuesday. What are you trying to say, that confusion is being nerfed? Isn't that obvious?

You're saying "lose 2K DPS" and disregarding the number listed which is 49K on TL , 46K on Cairn, and 48K on SH and that is POST nerf for axe. That's not even including 41K for staff on Cairn , ~37K for matt , ~44K for SH , ~44K for TL.

The singular listed staff post nerf number below 35K is on Adina, which begs the question why someone would run staff to begin with there.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Levetty.1279]

4 hours ago, Heika.5403 said:

They wanted to sell us the nerf with nice words and make us believe that the change is for the better. And there will be some who believe it and swallow it.

It would have been for the better, if it had been like it was at PoF launch instead of gutting the damage.

[Heika.5403]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

That's a projection and includes confusion.

 

The video I linked is as of last month after nerf not including confusion changes in the future patch Tuesday. What are you trying to say, that confusion is being nerfed? Isn't that obvious?

You're saying "lose 2K DPS" and disregarding the number listed which is 49K on TL , 46K on Cairn, and 48K on SH and that is POST nerf for axe. That's not even including 41K for staff on Cairn , ~37K for matt , ~44K for SH , ~44K for TL.

The singular listed staff post nerf number below 35K is on Adina, which begs the question why someone would run staff to begin with there.

My complain is against those that try to sell this change as a something positive and that we win in someway with the change.  It's what they always do, instead of recognize that is a flagrant nerf, they lie and try to fool players and convice that is the best thing for you.

 

There is a thing that some players don't know.  For receive full credit of a kill  you need to do between the 5% and 10% damage of the enemy's health.  And one of the beautiful thing that the actual confusion does until it will be nerfed next week is  that have a good burst when the enemy use its skills.  As  in the mayority of cases, those enemies perform at least one attack before die, even if it is a single one.  Stacking few stacks of confusion that last enough basically grants you the full reward without be there attacking until your enemies die.  Jaunt here, Jaunt there,  crystal sands,  scepter's ambush, axes of symmetry followed by lingering thoughts, etc.  Is like shot and forget granting you enough burst.   Next week it's to be seen how much you lose doing that as the more stacks the more you lose in the short time, 50% burst nerf to get only half of a bleed DOT... lol   If you must continue attacking the same mobs to get the full credit it will be a big loss.

 

As the simulations show and i expect watch and confirm next week, in the best cases, even in a long interval, you will be end doing a similar damage , but the reality is that in the majority of cases you lose dps,  and depending the enemy even A LOT.

 

SO yes,  i would have preferred them to say ok,  this is too much and  we are nerfing it  instead of: 

"In this update, we're making adjustments to the confusion condition in PvE. Currently, it's not strongly relevant in most gameplay, as few enemies attack rapidly enough for it to be a significant damage source. However, it's also exceedingly powerful on a few specific boss fights in raids and elsewhere, which happen to have attack patterns that trigger confusion often. This has been a problem to balance around; it's not much fun if being very good in specific raid fights means that confusion-heavy specializations like mirage aren't up to par elsewhere."

 

And the question is... Where is the improvement they claim when we watch in the simulations that you end doing from similar damage to a lot less one along the time with the "change" (nerf)? Because if currently is not strongly relevant in most gameplay.  Next week will be even less relevant!!!

[Infusion.7149]

3 minutes ago, Heika.5403 said:

My complain is against those that try to sell this change as a something positive and that we win in someway with the change.  It's what they always do, instead of recognize that is a flagrant nerf, they lie and try to fool players and convice that is the best thing for you.

 

There is a thing that some players don't know.  For receive full credit of a kill  you need to do between the 5% and 10% damage of the enemy's health.  And one of the beautiful thing that the actual confusion does until it will be nerfed next week is  that have a good burst when the enemy use its skills.  As  in the mayority of cases, those enemies perform at least one attack before die, even if it is a single one.  Stacking few stacks of confusion that last enough basically grants you the full reward without be there attacking until your enemies die.  Jaunt here, Jaunt there,  crystal sands,  scepter's ambush, axes of symmetry followed by lingering thoughts, etc.  Is like shot and forget granting you enough burst.   Next week it's to be seen how much you lose doing that as the more stacks the more you lose in the short time, 50% burst nerf to get only half of a bleed DOT... lol   If you must continue attacking the same mobs to get the full credit it will be a big loss.

 

As the simulations show and i expect watch and confirm next week, in the best cases, even in a long interval, you will be end doing a similar damage , but the reality is that in the majority of cases you lose dps,  and depending the enemy even A LOT.

 

SO yes,  i would have preferred them to say ok,  this is too much and  we are nerfing it  instead of: 

"In this update, we're making adjustments to the confusion condition in PvE. Currently, it's not strongly relevant in most gameplay, as few enemies attack rapidly enough for it to be a significant damage source. However, it's also exceedingly powerful on a few specific boss fights in raids and elsewhere, which happen to have attack patterns that trigger confusion often. This has been a problem to balance around; it's not much fun if being very good in specific raid fights means that confusion-heavy specializations like mirage aren't up to par elsewhere."

 

And the question is... Where is the improvement they claim when we watch in the simulations that you end doing from similar damage to a lot less one along the time with the "change" (nerf)? Because if currently is not strongly relevant in most gameplay.  Next week will be even less relevant!!!

Are you complaining because of openworld?
How are you not doing 5-10% of boss HP ?

It is not a simulation that snowcrows posted, it's a projection. Note the difference. Snowcrows' own calculators don't even have condition damage. You can check yourself. Discretize's site is better in this regard.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Junkpile.7439]

I never understand why people care about dps. You all try to do some speed runs or something?

[Heika.5403]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Are you complaining because of openworld?
How are you not doing 5-10% of boss HP ?

It is not a simulation that snowcrows posted, it's a projection. Note the difference. Snowcrows' own calculators don't even have condition damage. You can check yourself. Discretize's site is better in this regard.

My complain is that each time they do a change independiently of if it makes you lose performance, utility, whatever thing...  They have the ugly habit of wanting to hide it with an explanation that makes the change seem like something positive and that benefits us and we always win even if it is a blatant lie. It seems that instead the balance team, the balance patch notes are written by the marketing team in fear of losing sales.

 

I do not remember exactly the cases, but I do remember that in the past we already discussed the same thing in the forum after doing tests and seeing that all the verbiage that had been invented in those cases were lies and that what was behind it was nerf and nothing more . It seems they have not lost that habit. I prefer the truth even if it is negative than discovering a lie.

 

Nerfs are often necessary,  but the lies not.  And nerf + lies to justity them too much for my taste.  😤😆   

[Infusion.7149]

20 minutes ago, Heika.5403 said:

My complain is that each time they do a change independiently of if it makes you lose performance, utility, whatever thing...  They have the ugly habit of wanting to hide it with an explanation that makes the change seem like something positive and that benefits us and we always win even if it is a blatant lie. It seems that instead the balance team, the balance patch notes are written by the marketing team in fear of losing sales.

 

I do not remember exactly the cases, but I do remember that in the past we already discussed the same thing in the forum after doing tests and seeing that all the verbiage that had been invented in those cases were lies and that what was behind it was nerf and nothing more . It seems they have not lost that habit. I prefer the truth even if it is negative than discovering a lie.

 

Nerfs are often necessary,  but the lies not.  And nerf + lies to justity them too much for my taste.  😤😆   

Have you done SH/TL? People ask for "purple dps" almost exclusively. There's a clear problem.

This is unlike when they nerfed staff eles pulling 45K DPS on massive hitboxes if they even get all the hits in, which is irrelevant for most cases.

That's why when you write it lost 2K DPS on things it was doing over 40K DPS on it is clearly sensationalized , same thing for if it loses 7K on something it was pulling 50-54K.

This change makes it a bit more normalized to other specs even if staff mirage still is higher by ~ 4K vs even top DPS specs per table you posted while putting out might + alac.

Baseline DPS is going up (to 31625 for staff) due to the confusion change for when you have a breakbar for example. This means that it is at least on par with condi cele alac renegade or power diviner alac (both ~28-30K) in terms of sustained DPS.

Before staff was buffed axe mirage was the dominant confusion build besides condi chrono which is mostly used for tanking to provide quickness.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Zoser.7245]

44 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Have you done SH/TL? People ask for "purple dps" almost exclusively. There's a clear problem.

This is unlike when they nerfed staff eles pulling 45K DPS on massive hitboxes if they even get all the hits in, which is irrelevant for most cases.

That's why when you write it lost 2K DPS on things it was doing over 40K DPS on it is clearly sensationalized , same thing for if it loses 7K on something it was pulling 50-54K.

This change makes it a bit more normalized to other specs even if staff mirage still is higher by ~ 4K vs even top DPS specs per table you posted while putting out might + alac.

Baseline DPS is going up (to 31625 for staff) due to the confusion change for when you have a breakbar for example. This means that it is at least on par with condi cele alac renegade or power diviner alac (both ~28-30K) in terms of sustained DPS.

Before staff was buffed axe mirage was the dominant confusion build besides condi chrono which is mostly used for tanking to provide quickness.

There was also a time when "purple dps" wasn't a thing, and nobody cared.

 

Those problems are easily solved as they did with the repeater deadeye and the chronomancer. We also have a single dodge man for a reason...  There are, at least, two reworks upcoming and the Mirage  has enough ballots to be one of them.  So 🤞  To know how everything will end, and with the new specializations on the way, let's see who wins the lottery... the one that nobody wants.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Zoser.7245

[Infusion.7149]

5 minutes ago, Zoser.7245 said:

There was also a time when "purple dps" wasn't a thing, and nobody cared.

 

Those problems are easily solved as they did with the repeater deadeye and the chronomancer. We also have a single dodge man for a reason...  There are, at least, two reworks upcoming and the Mirage  has enough ballots to be one of them.  So 🤞  To know how everything will end, and with the new specializations on the way, let's see who wins the lottery... the one that nobody wants.

It's been a thing ever since the confusion output was increased heavily along with torment changes.

One dodge is a legit complaint, one that I have as well but it was a PvE change : the WVW/PVP version of confusion isn't touched and mirages have two dodges in PVE. IH could have been tweaked but instead ambushes in competitive were cut for example. Mirage was seen in last mAT for PVP and in WVW chrono is always going to be dominant over mirage because conditions aren't great in large scale.

 

I've been playing mesmer since pre-launch but I play all 9 classes so I don't have the same bias as some people here.

 

If you read writings by respected mesmer players (i.e. the one the do the benchmarks and have skill by skill breakdowns) they would tell you confusion is broken on a few select bosses. The solution chosen by Arenanet actually buffs confusion in scenarios when the boss is not attacking (such as a broken defiance bar). For example, if someone decides to be creative and run alac staff mirage and the CC bar is broken they can do more damage because 11+0.03 * condition damage is going to be about 70 damage per tick instead of 10 , though alac renegade will still be superior due to burst and CC , mirage puts out much more might and fury.

[superkaratemonkey.7408]

15 hours ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

I never understand why people care about dps. You all try to do some speed runs or something?

for fractal cms its super efficient, obviously for raids... its just about time efficiency, but i think if youre starting either you shouldnt worry about dps, but mechanics then focus on dps

[Me Games Ma.3024]

https://imgur.com/a/usEQRcz

This is my result on the confusion calculations to make it more understandable:

All this shows is damage per stack over Attacks/second.

 

The result: All mobs that attack faster than the breakpoint (in endgame PvE ~0.27 attacks/s meaning 1 attack all ~3.7s) take less confusion damage than before the "balance patch"

[Infusion.7149]

The places where people use Mirage (TL+SH) predominantly the bosses have attack every ~1.3-1.4s ; Cairn is 1.77s and mostly everything else is every 2s or more which I presume is 0.5 on the graph you posted. On the graph that would be ~0.7 for the ones that are confusion heavy. There's no reason to have 1.0 as the maximum because there's more or less nothing worth noting over 0.8.

[Me Games Ma.3024]

I didn't really think about the top end of the curve I just thought 1/s is a good default to end on. :)

 

Add:

The main goal with the graphs is to show ppl that confusion just took a huge hit that becomes worse the more the bosses attack :c

Edited August 15, 2021 by Me Games Ma.3024

[Heika.5403]

17 hours ago, Zoser.7245 said:

There was also a time when "purple dps" wasn't a thing, and nobody cared.

 

Those problems are easily solved as they did with the repeater deadeye and the chronomancer. We also have a single dodge man for a reason...  There are, at least, two reworks upcoming and the Mirage  has enough ballots to be one of them.  So 🤞  To know how everything will end, and with the new specializations on the way, let's see who wins the lottery... the one that nobody wants.

If they rework the Mirage with the same success as Chronomancer watching the 💩 that the Virtuoso is for now, even conceptually as its shatter skills does not offer nothing exciting or new... Aside be a dps bot the Virtuoso is a weaker specialization.  So if they also ruin the Mirage like they did with the Chronomancer,  i'm pretty sure that i will not play mesmer until, at least, the 4th expansion depending what they release for mesmer in that one, that's if they ever release a fourth expansion. 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Heika.5403

[Roda.7468]

Honestly, I'd prefer to see a trait changed in a traitline commonly used with condition builds to be "make confusion more like bleed/more like confusion" (whichever) and have the default behavior be the opposite of that across the board.  That way we could see at least some kind of build/performance consistency without Anet having to go all flip-floppety every 9 months or so and jerk us around like this.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Considering bleed is one of the weakest dmging condis I dont know how this is going to play out. It pales to compare against burn, torment, and even the changed confusion (at least there is an active part to it still.)

 

Maybe behind bleed is poison but poison has the added utility of reduce healing (sPvP, WvW).

Edited August 15, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780