Harbringer Doesn't have fear.

[Lily.1935]

This is a bit strange, but I didn't see a means to apply fear. If anything really breaks the rules of necromancer its this. I don't personally mind not having fear, but it would be nice to gain it someplace else. Like on Warhorn. Its just strange the only access they have to fear is Spectral ring and Mark of fear.

[InsaneQR.7412]

Yeah i think fear on the elixir trait could be really thematic.

Although borderline broken tbh.

[Lily.1935]

2 minutes ago, InsaneQR.7412 said:

Yeah i think fear on the elixir trait could be really thematic.

Although borderline broken tbh.

I think its fine without. Its got a lot of stuns and dazes and a float already. Which is more powerful generally, but we have so many traits which trigger off of fear its another case of lost synergy which limits the trait selection a bit more.

[InsaneQR.7412]

1 minute ago, Lily.1935 said:

I think its fine without. Its got a lot of stuns and dazes and a float already. Which is more powerful generally, but we have so many traits which trigger off of fear its another case of lost synergy which limits the trait selection a bit more.

 

Yeah generally i agree with that.

I would like that they would change the engage skill on shroud 3 into a disengage instead that fears opponents an lets you roll backwards.

I think that would mesh better with ranged gameplay.

 

[Lily.1935]

2 minutes ago, InsaneQR.7412 said:

 

Yeah generally i agree with that.

I would like that they would change the engage skill on shroud 3 into a disengage instead that fears opponents an lets you roll backwards.

I think that would mesh better with ranged gameplay.

 

I kinda want to see how it plays first before I make judgement on that. The biggest concern I see right now is that Harbringer shroud is a weapon swap that locks you out of your utility skills which i think is a major mistake for the spec.

[Anchoku.8142]

Arenanet should have something to trigger Dread, Terror and Fear of Death on. Three traits without the usual shroud Fear seems like too much. Even if 'Binger does not have a Fear on an F-skill, I feel like the traits would do something else.

[KrHome.1920]

30 minutes ago, InsaneQR.7412 said:

Although borderline broken tbh.

 

Did you watch the guardian (willybender) presentation? That spec will faceroll harbinger with its 2 million leaps and shadowsteps while spamming stability and aegis. If all new specs are that strong, then harbinger will actually have a hard time.

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by KrHome.1920

[InsaneQR.7412]

37 minutes ago, Lily.1935 said:

I kinda want to see how it plays first before I make judgement on that. The biggest concern I see right now is that Harbringer shroud is a weapon swap that locks you out of your utility skills which i think is a major mistake for the spec.

Yeah i think that would redeem the spec a bit for me. 

[Rym.1469]

It does have two other CC effects in Shroud though, so removing Fear was probably a wise choice.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

8 minutes ago, Rym.1469 said:

It does have two other CC effects in Shroud though, so removing Fear was probably a wise choice.

If we're looking at direct skill effects, I agree.  But Harbinger now has no reason to equip Terror, Dread, or master of Terror.

[Rym.1469]

13 minutes ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

If we're looking at direct skill effects, I agree.  But Harbinger now has no reason to equip Terror, Dread, or master of Terror.

Technically it still has some access to Fear in utility skills and corrupts so I guess that's why ANet hasn't included any in Shroud, but yeah, these traits realistically won't be used.

 

Changing the Pistol's Daze to Fear or Shroud #4 daze to Fear could be alternatives.

[Xaylin.1860]

It does feel weird. Then again, since we're getting the 3rd e-spec per class, maybe not everything has to work with everything anymore. It's not like Harbinger won't have any alternatives on those trait tiers.

[Caid.4932]

Make the traits effect floats too? Wont be particularly desirable without Staff or utilities but will stop them being completely redundant

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

3 minutes ago, Caid.4932 said:

Make the traits effect floats too? Wont be particularly desirable without Staff or utilities but will stop them being completely redundant

Not a bad idea.  Doesn't interfere with anything, since Necro currently has no floats anywhere else.

Except Master of Terror.  Definitely would be busted to have that apply to floats as well as Fear.

[Sobx.1758]

5 hours ago, Lily.1935 said:

This is a bit strange, but I didn't see a means to apply fear. If anything really breaks the rules of necromancer its this. I don't personally mind not having fear, but it would be nice to gain it someplace else. Like on Warhorn. Its just strange the only access they have to fear is Spectral ring and Mark of fear.

...this again? I fail to see how a new espec suddenly is supposed to justify adding another way to apply fear from core weapon. And that's because it doesn't.

 

[Aktium.9506]

Add a 0.5 base duration Fear to Devouring Cut.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing the 1 second Stun on Vile Blast changed to a 2 second Fear instead as well.

[Pooh.6897]

7 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

...this again? I fail to see how a new espec suddenly is supposed to justify adding another way to apply fear from core weapon. And that's because it doesn't.

 

I'm going to assume you didn't intend to ping me to this topic but while I'm here I might as well give my opinion anyway. Yes I did notice that the fear on shroud 3 is missing. At this point I'm getting more and more convinced that Fear is just inherently difficult to balance between PvE and PvP/WvW, because its effects are very strong in PvP/WvW, but in PvE you don't want enemies to run away. You want them stacked and as closely bundled together as they can get. Back when I made that post, I didn't specifically care for the effect that Fear gives, namely foes running away. I mainly cared about weaponizing Fear, turning it into something that could give a necromancer a number of strong boons. While the idea sounds fun, it's absolutely impossible to make a viable build for PvE with this in mind. I continue to find it rather odd how many traits necro has for enhancing Fear. What I do not find surprising is why necro has such few ways to apply Fear, and that is because Fear should be a rare condition. Fear takes control away from the receiver in a way that could be actively dangerous. Especially when it comes down to Spectral Ring and Mark 5 on the Staff (and also Reaper shroud 3), you're not Fearing a single person, you're fearing entire groups. If you play it smart in WvW you can stack up on necromancers that all run maximum amounts of applying Fear and literally force the enemy zerg off a cliff. These builds do/did in fact exist and they are disliked by receivers for a big reason. So no, I do not think Necro should have more ways to apply Fear. What I do think is that either Fear should be changed in PvE, or the large amounts of traits that enhance/weaponize Fear should be changed.

 

The harbinger is much more effective in gaining and sharing boons. This is what I've been waiting for, for such a long time. A quickness-based build with Dread is just not a good idea. The way harbinger does it instead makes me very excited to try out all the new options. I rather have a daze than Fear, and that is exactly what Harbinger has.

Edited August 14, 2021 by jiggle puff.9347
grammar is hard

[Asum.4960]

Having only two niche sources of Fear on Staff and Spectral Ring for Harbinger (and technically Lich), while having three Traits that do exclusively interact with/proc on Fear does feel really strange. 

The discussion of if Harbinger should have or needs Fear aside, it's been a staple on Shroud for a reason, to give any Necro spec at least a single access to Utilise those aspects, regardless of weapons and utilities. 

Fear on Shroud related skills is a core mechanic in a sense. 

 

With minions being largely worthless and 3 whole Traits wholly centered around them, Fear access shrinking with 3 whole Traits around that, it just seems a bit odd to have viable Trait choices and Theorycraft shrinking and shrinking, even if it is just for niche/fun builds (like a Dread + Deathly Haste low BD solo build). 

 

Again, I'm not directly arguing for the Fear on Harbinger or that it needs it, especially with it's high Torment focus, Fear has become a fairly anti-synergistic mechanic with that anyway since the Torment rework, while always having been problematic for the stack and burst/cleave gameplay of PvE - but a Fear on Shroud just feels like a cornerstone of Necro which is odd to see missing.

[lodjur.1284]

Fear doesn't play nice with torment, which is common on harbinger. 

 

Also not every spec needs synergy with every trait. Especially when the fear traits compete with some of the better traits necro got. 

[Sobx.1758]

On 8/14/2021 at 12:11 PM, jiggle puff.9347 said:

I'm going to assume you didn't intend to ping me to this topic

Yeah, sorry, I've linked to the last page of that thread, but it still embedded the whole thread and apparently pinged you. It wasn't directed at you, but rather at the initial posters in this thread. For example OP was in that linked thread, read the posts, probably understood the issues with that idea, but still -for some reason- tries to use lack of fear in new espec as a springboard to give CORE necro more access to fear. Seems unreasonable to me (but again, to be clear, that's not on you ;p).

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Sobx.1758
incidental double negative

[Fueki.4753]

Harbinger doesn't need Fear.

There's already enough Fear in the game.

[Nimon.7840]

On 8/13/2021 at 11:59 PM, KrHome.1920 said:

 

Did you watch the guardian (willybender) presentation? That spec will faceroll harbinger with its 2 million leaps and shadowsteps while spamming stability and aegis. If all new specs are that strong, then harbinger will actually have a hard time.

 

Exactly my thoughts. Willbender is the definition of powercreep. Might not be damage powercreep, but definitely mobility powercreep. And the spec doesn't really loose something.

 

Yes it looses the passives from virtues, but imo they get way stronger versions on activation.

 

While willbender doesn't really loose survivability compared to core,dh, firebrand. It's a different story for harbinger. You loose shroud HP sponge and you loose max health, but what does harbinger get for it?

 

The DMG numbers better be insane cause I don't see much defense in this kit.

 

 

[Lily.1935]

On 8/13/2021 at 5:52 PM, Anchoku.8142 said:

Arenanet should have something to trigger Dread, Terror and Fear of Death on. Three traits without the usual shroud Fear seems like too much. Even if 'Binger does not have a Fear on an F-skill, I feel like the traits would do something else.

I would like if those traits were changed to trigger on CC in general like Insidious Disruption was, but then we get into 2 major questions of the class identity. Such as Is the necromancer the crowd control class and should these be toned down because they will now have more general use?
Like if fear of death was for all hard CC a 15% would be too high. A 5% for PvP and WvW would be fine and a 2-3% would be fine for PvP since that's more common.
Dread is a whole other story to think about as well on how that would have to be handled.
Terror might be fine just to leave alone. I have my own issues with terror, but its not a big enough gripe to really rally around.

[Shroud.2307]

3 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

You loose shroud HP sponge and you loose max health, but what does harbinger get for it?

 

The DMG numbers better be insane cause I don't see much defense in this kit.

 

 

My feelings as well.

Having low health is perfectly fine if you can protect that health. Scrapper and Dragonhunter are good examples of that.

Scrapper can self-apply absolutely enormous amounts of Barrier and has very good Condition mitigation, and Dragonhunter has high block uptime potential, essentially two heals with Wings of Resolve, very good cleanse, and effective area denial.
Scourge is a bit like the two combined. It can apply significant Barrier, has good Condition control, and effective area denial. 

Necro has always been about offense as a form of defense. It doesn't have; block, invulnerability, extra evades, etc. It defends itself by being punishing to approach at the wrong time. And while Harbinger continues to follow that philosophy, it does it at the cost of health instead of as a way to protect it.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Shroud.2307