It is really hard to get excited about Virtuoso when 2 other elite specs are in an incredibly unhealty situation

[Lethion.8745]

First of all, this is not a complaint about the power level of Chronomancer and Mirage. This is a complaint about their mechanics. 

 

Majority of Mirage traits are so underwhelming that it feels like there is only one way to build Mirage.

Mirage Mirrors feels like a forsaken mechanic since there is just a single viable ability (Heal skill) that summons one. 

One dodge is a okay trade-off for a stronger dodge. But if you are gonna do that, please balance the spec around having 1 dodge. Don't just throw a mechanical nerf for PvP and call it a day. You are better than that ANet. We need you to put more thought into it. If you really want to push that 1 dodge trade-off for Mirage, it should be effective, and well functioning in all game modes. You are doing it for Harbinger. You can do it for Mesmer too. Just take all the condi spam if that's what it takes. I believe many mesmer players will agree that we don't play mesmer for spamming condis. That's Necro's job. We want that evasivenes and combat tricks. 

 

Problems with Chronomancers are a lot bigger than that and unfortunely, I believe only thing that can save that spec is a whole rework.

 

First of all, Chrono doesn't have a elite spec mechanic. I knew Alacrity as a elite spec mechanic wouldn't work since the day one. Everyone who spent some time in MMORPG's would know that if there is a buff that only 1 class can provide, this class will be obligatory in every competitive game mode. So, unlocking Alacrity for other classes was a good move. But, those "chrono shatters" that you gave us in return, are just regular shatters plus 1 effect, which contradicts with your "elite specs shouldn't be just an upgrade to the core class"  philosophy you had for last couple of years. Removal of Illusinary Persona didn't work because those additional effects is not worth losing it at all. Chronomancer already have that theme of playing with ability cooldowns but it's quite immature right now. There is lots of things that you can do with "chrono shatters" like decreasing ability cooldowns, increasing enemy cooldowns, double casting abilities etc. with the trade-off being less base damage on shatters, higher cooldowns on shatters etc.

 

There used to be three different playstyles for Chrono, seperated in three lines. Boon/Damage/CC. It was a great design idea but we are only left with damage now.

 

Starting with boon support, please bring back the Alacrity/Quickness back into the core design of the spec. It's very frustrating that Mirage has better Alacrity uptime than Chrono.  It used to be OP and meta stable because no one else could do Chrono's job. Now there are lots of classes can apply Quickness and Alacrity with other things that Chrono can't provide. Those boon application nerfs were justified for their time, but now they are outdated. Chrono already has little to no heal so even if you bring back their Alacrity/Quickness aplication to what it used to be, people will still require other heal heavy supports in their team. Also there are other classes that can take Chrono's place as a Alacrity or Quickness provider with other tools that Chrono doesn't have. (hello Scrapper)

 

For the CC playstyle. Slowterrupt was such a fun build until you tried to make it meta and then removed it from the existence when it did become meta. No one was complaining about it being too strong or too weak until you added unnecessary amount of damage to the build. That kind of build was never supposed to deal huge amounts of damage. As the name suggests, it was meant to slow and interrupt opponents. Since Danger time is also nerfed to the ground now, I see ne problem with bringing back Slowterrupt Chrono.

 

Lastly, wells. Honestly, I think wells being the utility type for Chrono was not fit from the begining but if we are sticking to original, please make them pulse boon instead of condition. AoEs should punish enemies for staying in it, that's how it works in the entire gaming world. But Chrono wells punishes allies for not staying in it. In such a movement focused game, there is no way for such mechanic to work outside of well-organized teams. They also have pretty underwhelming affect for the waiting and mobility they cost but that's a balancing issue which is not my concern for this topic. 

 

As I said, all these problems can't be solved with some balance changes and requires a big rework. I know even if you want to, it will take a lot of time and work to fix these issues. Especially all the work you have in your hands with upcoming expansion. All I am asking is, please, I am begging you, acknowledge the problems of Mesmer elites, put effort bringing it to your standart with elite specs instead of pulling out short-term solutions and inform us that you are listening to us and working for us. We Mesmer mains suffered a lot from drastic changes, more than any clas. We endured type of nerfs that no other class have or will ever have. Please give us something to enjoy. Personally, I really want to get excited about Virtuoso but I can't. I just can't because I know it will either throw Chrono and Mirage out of the window or will be just another addition to collection of underwhelming elite specs of mesmer. I love your game ANet. I love your work and I still have faith in you.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Lethion.8745

[Alpha.1308]

19 minutes ago, Lethion.8745 said:

Mirage Mirrors feels like a forsaken mechanic

who the butts decided pick-up mechanics were healthy to have in this game after everyone complained about how bad rev/guard pickup mechanics were in HoT

 

like, please, fire them

 

 

19 minutes ago, Lethion.8745 said:

First of all, Chrono doesn't have a elite spec mechanic.

i mean, it's Continuum Split 

i don't like this answer, myself, but it IS a "mechanic" that is honestly pretty massive 

 

19 minutes ago, Lethion.8745 said:

Starting with boon support, please bring back the Alacrity/Quickness back into the core design of the spec. It's very frustrating that Mirage has better Alacrity uptime than Chrono. 

 

 

seriously

see the ending to comment #1

 

who

the

flippity 

quaggan

thought

this

garbage

through 

 

19 minutes ago, Lethion.8745 said:

there is no way for such mechanic to work outside of well-organized teams.

 

*well organized PEE VEEE EEEEE teams

 

literally this concept has absolutely no place in pvp settings anywhere ever 

 

even in pve, i don't even think wells get much value, because they're so lackluster even at full final pulse effect (ignoring grav well) 

 

they literally are just used because they don't need another, useful skill, because mesmer has none for the most part, unless it's a very niche utility, which would have been fine, if the alternatives were actually even valued to begin with, so you'd have to give up something of value for something else of value

 

19 minutes ago, Lethion.8745 said:

I still have faith in you.

i lost what shred i had left the minute they said they were removing (some?? phantasms still not guardian spirit weapons???) NPC mechanics that can be killed/CC'd for projectiles that can be destroyed/reflected/whiff entirely with this games disgusting projectile tracking 

 

  

 

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Alpha.1308

[Levetty.1279]

Stronger Dodge? How is shorter evade frames and lack of movement a stronger dodge?

[Curunen.8729]

Given the design of virtuoso (a lot of plain modifiers and straightforward damage etc), I'm doubtful on chrono and mirage getting some deeper review any time soon - ie as long as their relative power level for whatever fotm build functions in relevant game modes, the mechanics seem to be an afterthought not necessary for consideration.

 

Eg regarding mirage - one dodge is not a tradeoff, it is a skill split that is placeholder for reviewing the funciton of mirage cloak, access to it, ambushes, shatters, mirrors etc. A tradeoff should be a global design across all game modes central to how the spec functions.

 

Of course there's always hope. Maybe after EoD comes out, but nothing seems to change in terms of rate and nature of balance patches, so it seems best to just enjoy stuff in whatever fashion it works now and save oneself the headache. At least the art and audio is always nice.

[AXLIB.8425]

 

Virtuoso is not just underwhelming when compared to Mesmer's own elite spec, it is underwhelming compared with literality everything else. Lets compare them to other "just dps" spec.

 

Berserker: 2 new weapon skills, added unique burst for every single main hand weapon, as well as utility that interact very well with their berserk mode, simple traits but at least they are not reused core effect. 

 

Dragon hunter: 5 new weapon skills, added new virtues that are very different then the old one, and much more useful. simple utility but very effective, same goes for trait.

 

Reaper: 5 new weapon skills, added new shroud that completely changed how necro is played, a very easy dps rotation with very decent damage. interesting utility, tho not all are effective. strong traits with some interesting options.

 

deadeye: 10 new weapon skills, new stolen skill have all have stealth and don't teleport you. a new system that increase your damage based on skill use. some interesting and powerful utility, and a standard trait line with an option to support other(even tho the boons are very common)

 

soulbeast: 3 new weapon skills, the ability to get rid of your pet, which also grand you new skill that is based on your pet's family and type for a total of 30+ new skill from that alone, merging also interact with existing traits wonderfully. you get stance with all having unique effect, and a standard trait line allowing you to share your stances.

 

holosmith: 3 new weapon skills, a build in transformation that gives 5 new skills, if not managed well the transformation can hurt you, but very powerful. good utility and a very interesting trait line that is able to alter many aspect of your transformation.

 

weaver: 12 new weapon skills, ability to weave two element together, giving you 30+ skills for all of your weapon. some unique and useful utility, and an okay trait line

 

mirage: 3 new weapon skills, unique dodge that gives you new auto attack during it, questionable utility but has a very good elite, mirage mirror with nice concept but could use some rework. truly not a great trait line with IH being the only useable grandmaster, and there is barely any choice with the rest either.

 

virtuoso: 3 new weapon skills, your clones are now blades and you get access you "new" shatter, tho the "new" shatter have the same effect and role as the core mesmer shatter. some good utilty, and some utility that could've be just one, but Anet need to come up with 5 new utility, so we get two utility that feel very similar. very basic trait line with the majority of the trait being reused core Mesmer ability and trait, or gets invalided due to core Mesmer trait, a third of the trait line dictated to condi without much presence of condi on the rest of the class.

 

3 hours ago, Lethion.8745 said:

Starting with boon support, please bring back the Alacrity/Quickness back into the core design of the spec. It's very frustrating that Mirage has better Alacrity uptime than Chrono.  It used to be OP and meta stable because no one else could do Chrono's job. Now there are lots of classes can apply Quickness and Alacrity with other things that Chrono can't provide. Those boon application nerfs were justified for their time, but now they are outdated. Chrono already has little to no heal so even if you bring back their Alacrity/Quickness aplication to what it used to be, people will still require other heal heavy supports in their team. Also there are other classes that can take Chrono's place as a Alacrity or Quickness provider with other tools that Chrono doesn't have. (hello Scrapper)

 

I do not find "chrono not being able to heal due to it gives quickness and some alacrity" a very kitten argument especially given the harbinger being the not able to heal and gives every single boon in the game, it is literately our old chaos chrono. but as the current state of chrono's ability to give boon it really should be allowed to heal like other support in the game, that all gives some boons and good healing. 

[Nezekan.2671]

What Chronomancer has gone through since start of HoT until now is closest equivalent to abuse a class in an MMO can go through.

[Lethion.8745]

14 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Stronger Dodge? How is shorter evade frames and lack of movement a stronger dodge?

 

I meant as a concept, losing one dodge for a stronger one is an okay concept. But as I said, the spec needs to be balanced around having one dodge which is not at the moment. As you mentioned, either it really needs to be strong dodge or the spec should be able to make up for it with Mirage Mirrors or Endurance generation.  

 

12 hours ago, Curunen.8729 said:

Given the design of virtuoso (a lot of plain modifiers and straightforward damage etc), I'm doubtful on chrono and mirage getting some deeper review any time soon - ie as long as their relative power level for whatever fotm build functions in relevant game modes, the mechanics seem to be an afterthought not necessary for consideration.

 

Eg regarding mirage - one dodge is not a tradeoff, it is a skill split that is placeholder for reviewing the funciton of mirage cloak, access to it, ambushes, shatters, mirrors etc. A tradeoff should be a global design across all game modes central to how the spec functions.

 

Of course there's always hope. Maybe after EoD comes out, but nothing seems to change in terms of rate and nature of balance patches, so it seems best to just enjoy stuff in whatever fashion it works now and save oneself the headache. At least the art and audio is always nice.

 

I agree with your Mirage argument. But I am not sure that's what ANet thinks. I fear that they see one dodge as an permanent solution instead of a placeholder.

 

11 hours ago, AXLIB.8425 said:

 

Virtuoso is not just underwhelming when compared to Mesmer's own elite spec, it is underwhelming compared with literality everything else. Lets compare them to other "just dps" spec.

 

Berserker: 2 new weapon skills, added unique burst for every single main hand weapon, as well as utility that interact very well with their berserk mode, simple traits but at least they are not reused core effect. 

 

Dragon hunter: 5 new weapon skills, added new virtues that are very different then the old one, and much more useful. simple utility but very effective, same goes for trait.

 

Reaper: 5 new weapon skills, added new shroud that completely changed how necro is played, a very easy dps rotation with very decent damage. interesting utility, tho not all are effective. strong traits with some interesting options.

 

deadeye: 10 new weapon skills, new stolen skill have all have stealth and don't teleport you. a new system that increase your damage based on skill use. some interesting and powerful utility, and a standard trait line with an option to support other(even tho the boons are very common)

 

soulbeast: 3 new weapon skills, the ability to get rid of your pet, which also grand you new skill that is based on your pet's family and type for a total of 30+ new skill from that alone, merging also interact with existing traits wonderfully. you get stance with all having unique effect, and a standard trait line allowing you to share your stances.

 

holosmith: 3 new weapon skills, a build in transformation that gives 5 new skills, if not managed well the transformation can hurt you, but very powerful. good utility and a very interesting trait line that is able to alter many aspect of your transformation.

 

weaver: 12 new weapon skills, ability to weave two element together, giving you 30+ skills for all of your weapon. some unique and useful utility, and an okay trait line

 

mirage: 3 new weapon skills, unique dodge that gives you new auto attack during it, questionable utility but has a very good elite, mirage mirror with nice concept but could use some rework. truly not a great trait line with IH being the only useable grandmaster, and there is barely any choice with the rest either.

 

virtuoso: 3 new weapon skills, your clones are now blades and you get access you "new" shatter, tho the "new" shatter have the same effect and role as the core mesmer shatter. some good utilty, and some utility that could've be just one, but Anet need to come up with 5 new utility, so we get two utility that feel very similar. very basic trait line with the majority of the trait being reused core Mesmer ability and trait, or gets invalided due to core Mesmer trait, a third of the trait line dictated to condi without much presence of condi on the rest of the class.

 

I do not find "chrono not being able to heal due to it gives quickness and some alacrity" a very kitten argument especially given the harbinger being the not able to heal and gives every single boon in the game, it is literately our old chaos chrono. but as the current state of chrono's ability to give boon it really should be allowed to heal like other support in the game, that all gives some boons and good healing. 

 

As I said, I am not asking for specs to be stronger. I just want them to be meaningful and fun to play. Since current supports either have quickness or alacrity, having both of them might need to come with a trade off and lack of defensive options like healing and barrier seems fitting thematically and mechanically IMO. Also, I agree that Virtuoso seems like another underwhelming spec with very plain traits but since it's not in beta yet, I don't want to complain too much.

 

6 hours ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

What Chronomancer has gone through since start of HoT until now is closest equivalent to abuse a class in an MMO can go through.

 

I agree. Maybe we should sue Anet. 😛 (just joking)

[Lethion.8745]

15 hours ago, Lethion.8745 said:

First of all, this is not a complaint about the power level of Chronomancer and Mirage. This is a complaint about their mechanics. 

 

Majority of Mirage traits are so underwhelming that it feels like there is only one way to build Mirage.

Mirage Mirrors feels like a forsaken mechanic since there is just a single viable ability (Heal skill) that summons one. 

One dodge is a okay trade-off for a stronger dodge. But if you are gonna do that, please balance the spec around having 1 dodge. Don't just throw a mechanical nerf for PvP and call it a day. You are better than that ANet. We need you to put more thought into it. If you really want to push that 1 dodge trade-off for Mirage, it should be effective, and well functioning in all game modes. You are doing it for Harbinger. You can do it for Mesmer too. Just take all the condi spam if that's what it takes. I believe many mesmer players will agree that we don't play mesmer for spamming condis. That's Necro's job. We want that evasivenes and combat tricks. 

 

Problems with Chronomancers are a lot bigger than that and unfortunely, I believe only thing that can save that spec is a whole rework.

 

First of all, Chrono doesn't have a elite spec mechanic. I knew Alacrity as a elite spec mechanic wouldn't work since the day one. Everyone who spent some time in MMORPG's would know that if there is a buff that only 1 class can provide, this class will be obligatory in every competitive game mode. So, unlocking Alacrity for other classes was a good move. But, those "chrono shatters" that you gave us in return, are just regular shatters plus 1 effect, which contradicts with your "elite specs shouldn't be just an upgrade to the core class"  philosophy you had for last couple of years. Removal of Illusinary Persona didn't work because those additional effects is not worth losing it at all. Chronomancer already have that theme of playing with ability cooldowns but it's quite immature right now. There is lots of things that you can do with "chrono shatters" like decreasing ability cooldowns, increasing enemy cooldowns, double casting abilities etc. with the trade-off being less base damage on shatters, higher cooldowns on shatters etc.

 

There used to be three different playstyles for Chrono, seperated in three lines. Boon/Damage/CC. It was a great design idea but we are only left with damage now.

 

Starting with boon support, please bring back the Alacrity/Quickness back into the core design of the spec. It's very frustrating that Mirage has better Alacrity uptime than Chrono.  It used to be OP and meta stable because no one else could do Chrono's job. Now there are lots of classes can apply Quickness and Alacrity with other things that Chrono can't provide. Those boon application nerfs were justified for their time, but now they are outdated. Chrono already has little to no heal so even if you bring back their Alacrity/Quickness aplication to what it used to be, people will still require other heal heavy supports in their team. Also there are other classes that can take Chrono's place as a Alacrity or Quickness provider with other tools that Chrono doesn't have. (hello Scrapper)

 

For the CC playstyle. Slowterrupt was such a fun build until you tried to make it meta and then removed it from the existence when it did become meta. No one was complaining about it being too strong or too weak until you added unnecessary amount of damage to the build. That kind of build was never supposed to deal huge amounts of damage. As the name suggests, it was meant to slow and interrupt opponents. Since Danger time is also nerfed to the ground now, I see ne problem with bringing back Slowterrupt Chrono.

 

Lastly, wells. Honestly, I think wells being the utility type for Chrono was not fit from the begining but if we are sticking to original, please make them pulse boon instead of condition. AoEs should punish enemies for staying in it, that's how it works in the entire gaming world. But Chrono wells punishes allies for not staying in it. In such a movement focused game, there is no way for such mechanic to work outside of well-organized teams. They also have pretty underwhelming affect for the waiting and mobility they cost but that's a balancing issue which is not my concern for this topic. 

 

As I said, all these problems can't be solved with some balance changes and requires a big rework. I know even if you want to, it will take a lot of time and work to fix these issues. Especially all the work you have in your hands with upcoming expansion. All I am asking is, please, I am begging you, acknowledge the problems of Mesmer elites, put effort bringing it to your standart with elite specs instead of pulling out short-term solutions and inform us that you are listening to us and working for us. We Mesmer mains suffered a lot from drastic changes, more than any clas. We endured type of nerfs that no other class have or will ever have. Please give us something to enjoy. Personally, I really want to get excited about Virtuoso but I can't. I just can't because I know it will either throw Chrono and Mirage out of the window or will be just another addition to collection of underwhelming elite specs of mesmer. I love your game ANet. I love your work and I still have faith in you.

 

 

 

Let's tone down the agression. I know we are all frustrated but it being constructive is always more resultful. 

 

Continuum Split is a great skill but it alone not enough to define a elite spec with 105 seconds cooldown. I believe it should be the base for designing other shatters as well. Let me give you a quick example for what can be done with other shatters; Rewinder can reduce remaining cooldown of utility skills for certain amount for each clone shattered instead of reducing it's own cooldown, with trade-off being losing AoE damage. Time Sink can completely lose Daze for a lot shorter cooldown (like 10-15 seconds) so you consistently apply slow if you want to play around that. There is just so much room for improvement.

 

[Junkpile.7439]

No idea, but my core mesmer will one hit these new elite specs. 😎

[Alpha.1308]

21 hours ago, AXLIB.8425 said:

some good utilty, and some utility that could've be just one, but Anet need to come up with 5 new utility, so we get two utility that feel very similar.

wait, stop that, you take that back

 

i want more well-like skills to put on my bar, not less 

ground-targets are the only reliable thing in this game 

 

and chrono wells are one of the biggest disappointments in any e-spec 

i mean, they should still fix chrono wells

 

then just do whatever to these ones, i don't really care, tbh, but this will be the go-to ground target build for me as long as they continue to deal damage

 

despite how absolutely disgusting F3 is going to be, considering it's gonna get hit with that band-aid CC damage reduction 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Alpha.1308

[Leonidrex.5649]

elite specs are supposed to bring us new cool things.
virtuoso brings nothing new, cool or interesting, it mechanically downgrades our class mechanic and its all it does.
all shatters do the exact same thing, and here I was getting excited for no clone spec.
They could do legit ANYTHING with our F skills, they could easy turn them into their own unique skills, that do something utterly different, but they do the EXACT same thing, but in a WORSE way. YiKeS

[draxynnic.3719]

On 8/14/2021 at 12:22 PM, Curunen.8729 said:

Eg regarding mirage - one dodge is not a tradeoff, it is a skill split that is placeholder for reviewing the funciton of mirage cloak, access to it, ambushes, shatters, mirrors etc. A tradeoff should be a global design across all game modes central to how the spec functions.

This is pretty much my thinking. One dodge felt like a boonsmiting - there wasn't anything else they could implement but they felt the need to do something now, so that's what they did.

 

Personally, I think giving mirage its own shatters would work well. F4 could get Distortion reduced to just one second, but the mirror generation traits could be made baseline - that way, you still get roughly the same number of hard-to-hit frames, but you're trading potentially getting 4s of Distortion right away with getting ambush procs if you run around picking up all the mirrors. At the moment, F4 is potentially 4s of Distortion PLUS mirrors, which is probably a bit too much defence off one skill.

 

As part of this, they could also get their other shatters adjusted. Given that Mirage gets extra 'sustained' DPS off ambush skills from clones, it'd probably make sense to tone down their shatters a little to compensate. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

This is pretty much my thinking. One dodge felt like a boonsmiting - there wasn't anything else they could implement but they felt the need to do something now, so that's what they did.

 

Personally, I think giving mirage its own shatters would work well. F4 could get Distortion reduced to just one second, but the mirror generation traits could be made baseline - that way, you still get roughly the same number of hard-to-hit frames, but you're trading potentially getting 4s of Distortion right away with getting ambush procs if you run around picking up all the mirrors. At the moment, F4 is potentially 4s of Distortion PLUS mirrors, which is probably a bit too much defence off one skill.

 

As part of this, they could also get their other shatters adjusted. Given that Mirage gets extra 'sustained' DPS off ambush skills from clones, it'd probably make sense to tone down their shatters a little to compensate. 

I dont fcking understand why people think Mirage is like your traditional shatter mesmer , in reality mirage is made for more of a passive gameplay having clone uptime rather then shattering it for downtime and this isn't even because IH. Deceptive evasion one of the best skill Mirage has in the game has the detargetting mechanic which calls for having clones up so there is something for people to ALT TAB and not instantly tab back to you. 

 

Stop having this "mirage should have unique shatter" kitten because the whole e-spec itself wasnt made for that. Its shatter on demand rather then active shatter like chrono where you get alacrity back from shattering.

[draxynnic.3719]

43 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I dont fcking understand why people think Mirage is like your traditional shatter mesmer , in reality mirage is made for more of a passive gameplay having clone uptime rather then shattering it for downtime and this isn't even because IH. Deceptive evasion one of the best skill Mirage has in the game has the detargetting mechanic which calls for having clones up so there is something for people to ALT TAB and not instantly tab back to you. 

 

Stop having this "mirage should have unique shatter" kitten because the whole e-spec itself wasnt made for that. Its shatter on demand rather then active shatter like chrono where you get alacrity back from shattering.

That's kinda the point. At the moment, mirage gets all the benefits from mirage stuff, and, apart from the core traitline they give up to have Mirage, they still have the same shatter spike potential as core mesmers. They have more sustained damage potential than a core mesmer, but also have the potential to build to spike just as hard as a core mesmer - potentially protected by mirage cloak and augmented by an ambush, what's more. Plus, speaking from experience, even when not specifically setting up a spike, it's usually convenient enough to use a shatter just before you're about to renew your clones anyway.

 

I think it's reasonable to say that Distortion on Mirage is possibly a little too good - it's potentially 7s of you-can't-hit-me, which can be interwoven with regular Mirage Cloak while also generating additional ambushes. Toning that down could mean that Mirage could get its second dodge in competitive back (and I'd certainly rather have an additional dodge in hand for a build that relies on dodging for damage over a longer F4). It also makes sense in that circumstance to tone down some of the other shatters as well - not to say "Mirage shatters are awesome, you should be taking mirage for awesome shatters" - but actually the opposite, to reinforce that Mirage relies more on sustained damage sources rather than the spikes from shatters. If the potential to spike with a shatter is reduced, than having higher defences (including that second dodge) as part of a more sustain-oriented playstyle may be a little more balanceable.

 

The point of having unique shatters is that it allows for Mirage to be balanced such that shatters are a less important part of their powerset. While core mesmer, or possibly chrono, gets to have the "build power and down you from stealth in about a second, but little or no follow-through if the spike fails" approach.

[Salt Mode.3780]

13 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

That's kinda the point. At the moment, mirage gets all the benefits from mirage stuff, and, apart from the core traitline they give up to have Mirage, they still have the same shatter spike potential as core mesmers. They have more sustained damage potential than a core mesmer, but also have the potential to build to spike just as hard as a core mesmer - potentially protected by mirage cloak and augmented by an ambush, what's more. Plus, speaking from experience, even when not specifically setting up a spike, it's usually convenient enough to use a shatter just before you're about to renew your clones anyway.

 

I think it's reasonable to say that Distortion on Mirage is possibly a little too good - it's potentially 7s of you-can't-hit-me, which can be interwoven with regular Mirage Cloak while also generating additional ambushes. Toning that down could mean that Mirage could get its second dodge in competitive back (and I'd certainly rather have an additional dodge in hand for a build that relies on dodging for damage over a longer F4). It also makes sense in that circumstance to tone down some of the other shatters as well - not to say "Mirage shatters are awesome, you should be taking mirage for awesome shatters" - but actually the opposite, to reinforce that Mirage relies more on sustained damage sources rather than the spikes from shatters. If the potential to spike with a shatter is reduced, than having higher defences (including that second dodge) as part of a more sustain-oriented playstyle may be a little more balanceable.

 

The point of having unique shatters is that it allows for Mirage to be balanced such that shatters are a less important part of their powerset. While core mesmer, or possibly chrono, gets to have the "build power and down you from stealth in about a second, but little or no follow-through if the spike fails" approach.

Lol this shows how little knowledge you have towards mesmer as a "mesmer player". Nothing said here made any lick of sense but hey I dont think I'm the only one that also feels this way.

 

I love how people who cry E-specs should change the playstyle of core yet comments like this would want specs like a passive gameplay NON shatter mirage to use shatter more actively like CORE or CHRONO and perhaps the new VIRTUOSO. 

 

I dont know how much you read or skim through my comment before rushing to make a long essay of I dont know what actually, but again ill state MIRAGE DOES NOT BENEFIT FROM SHATTERING imagine having no clones using a detargetting skill.... Everything about it's kit is revolved on having clones up at all times and only ever using shatters as an emergency rather then ACTIVE shatter like Chrono who BENEFITS from shattering or even CORE because CORE has the HIGHEST burst potential of the current 3 specs due to it not being locked onto a e-spec trait and taking up ALL the damage traits.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[draxynnic.3719]

Riiiiiight. I've played mesmer enough, including mirage, and have the title for it, although I haven't been playing it in competitive lately because I've been chasing the titles on the professions I haven't played so much in the past. They absolutely do benefit from a well-timed shatter, although obviously not as much as others do - you have to think about the cost-benefit of shattering.

 

It's amusing that you accuse me of skimming when it's pretty sure you're completely missing the intent of what I'm saying. I'm saying that giving them "unique" shatters could be used to give them weaker shatters, to emphasise that more of their strength comes from other sources. If you genuinely think that MIRAGE DOES NOT BENEFIT FROM SHATTERING then you shouldn't be bothered by such a suggestion and should welcome a suggestion that allows more of the power budget to be concentrated in the way you think it should be played.

 

But at this point, it seems like you're more interested in throwing salt and insults around than having a rational discussion.

[Salt Mode.3780]

13 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Riiiiiight. I've played mesmer enough, including mirage, and have the title for it, although I haven't been playing it in competitive lately because I've been chasing the titles on the professions I haven't played so much in the past. They absolutely do benefit from a well-timed shatter, although obviously not as much as others do - you have to think about the cost-benefit of shattering.

 

It's amusing that you accuse me of skimming when it's pretty sure you're completely missing the intent of what I'm saying. I'm saying that giving them "unique" shatters could be used to give them weaker shatters, to emphasise that more of their strength comes from other sources. If you genuinely think that MIRAGE DOES NOT BENEFIT FROM SHATTERING then you shouldn't be bothered by such a suggestion and should welcome a suggestion that allows more of the power budget to be concentrated in the way you think it should be played.

 

But at this point, it seems like you're more interested in throwing salt and insults around than having a rational discussion.

Again I said from my original post and I cant believe I have to quote myself because some people can't read clearly,  I said " Its shatter on demand rather then active shatter like chrono where you get alacrity back from shattering." The saddest part is this was at the END of the post so it shouldn't be too hard to find but this time I put it in bold for you to see it more clearly. The only reason why I made the bold statement for Mirage not benefitting from shattering is because the whole toolkit of mirage is a PASSIVE GAMEPLAY which means there is NO NEED TO GIVE MIRAGE UNIQUE SHATTERS. 

 

Even in a PvE standpoint there is absolutely no reason for a mirage to be shattering clones for dps cuz you are actively losing dps by not having clone uptime and losing 3 clone IH procs unlike a I dont know a chrono that NEEDS to be actively shattering and not waste clone resource for dps and boon uptime. 

 

"Riiiiiiight. I've played mesmer enough." Clearly not....

Edited August 15, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

On 8/13/2021 at 8:42 PM, Lethion.8745 said:

But, those "chrono shatters" that you gave us in return, are just regular shatters plus 1 effect, which contradicts with your "elite specs shouldn't be just an upgrade to the core class"  philosophy you had for last couple of years.

 

Honestly, in my opinion chrono and mirage shouldn't have shatters at all. They should keep shatters as a core mesmer mechanic, mirage could have something different such as clone commands that leave them alive instead of shattering them, or perhaps your skills that create clones create mirrors instead, and your shatters turn mirrors into clones, so you can choose between walking through the mirrors to gain an evade or use them to make some clones, and chrono loses clones but instead creates time anomalies that they can use to speed (F1) slow (F2) stop (F3) and reverse (Continuum Split) time. Virtuoso still gets his blades instead of clones, but instead of just shooting them, each F skill gives him a wieldable illusionary weapon that fullfills a different role (power, condi, CC, defense), with number of charges/duration/skills available based on the number of blades stocked.

 

This is obviously just an example of what could've been done, made out of the top of my head rather than an actual specific suggestion, but it's what I'm talking about when I say that chrono's and virtuoso's shatters are completely uninspired and dull, and the especs feel extremely similar to one another.

 

The way I see it, as it stands, necromancer is the holy grail of espec design. Each of necro's especs change the main mechanic of the class (the shroud) greatly, with both upgrades and drawbacks, considerably different gameplay, and varying roles. Seeing the Virtuoso reveal made me feel underwhelmed, but seeing the Harbinger reveal right after felt just insulting. All classes, but mesmer in particular, could stand to gain from necro's espec design.

[Heinel.6548]

The only way I see virtuoso being a worthwhile thing at all is if it's going to take over the DPS role so that chronos can be reworked to a full on support espec. Let's hope it comes to pass.

[Curunen.8729]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

This is pretty much my thinking. One dodge felt like a boonsmiting - there wasn't anything else they could implement but they felt the need to do something now, so that's what they did.

 

Personally, I think giving mirage its own shatters would work well. F4 could get Distortion reduced to just one second, but the mirror generation traits could be made baseline - that way, you still get roughly the same number of hard-to-hit frames, but you're trading potentially getting 4s of Distortion right away with getting ambush procs if you run around picking up all the mirrors. At the moment, F4 is potentially 4s of Distortion PLUS mirrors, which is probably a bit too much defence off one skill.

 

As part of this, they could also get their other shatters adjusted. Given that Mirage gets extra 'sustained' DPS off ambush skills from clones, it'd probably make sense to tone down their shatters a little to compensate. 

 

Yes I agree regarding shatters. Particularly F4 as I believe the current state and in particular the almost gimmick invuln chain potential together with Desert Distortion and signets restricts the space for allowing access to 2 dodges. I believe it would be healthier for mirage to have 2 dodges but have F4 be just 1s distortion and all clones become mirrors - and possibly be on a lower cooldown to compensate in this case, eg ~45s base.

 

And also with F1-3, I don't mind if it's simply minor modification as how they did with chrono - but something which incentivises the unique nature of the spec - ie how Riddle of Sand gives a bonus to subsequent ambush, all of them could enhance subsequent ambushes in different ways - but reduce the upfront burst potential. Not talking massive changes (eg maybe +25%/-25% or similar), but something to differentiate further from core which should be the go to for old school max burst shatter playstyle, whether power or condi shatter.

F3 could give an effect that adds 1/2s daze to your next ambush or something, F1 could give bonus damage to next ambush.

 

  

4 hours ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

 

Honestly, in my opinion chrono and mirage shouldn't have shatters at all. They should keep shatters as a core mesmer mechanic, mirage could have something different such as clone commands that leave them alive instead of shattering them, or perhaps your skills that create clones create mirrors instead, and your shatters turn mirrors into clones, so you can choose between walking through the mirrors to gain an evade or use them to make some clones, and chrono loses clones but instead creates time anomalies that they can use to speed (F1) slow (F2) stop (F3) and reverse (Continuum Split) time. Virtuoso still gets his blades instead of clones, but instead of just shooting them, each F skill gives him a wieldable illusionary weapon that fullfills a different role (power, condi, CC, defense), with number of charges/duration/skills available based on the number of blades stocked.

 

This is obviously just an example of what could've been done, made out of the top of my head rather than an actual specific suggestion, but it's what I'm talking about when I say that chrono's and virtuoso's shatters are completely uninspired and dull, and the especs feel extremely similar to one another.

 

The way I see it, as it stands, necromancer is the holy grail of espec design. Each of necro's especs change the main mechanic of the class (the shroud) greatly, with both upgrades and drawbacks, considerably different gameplay, and varying roles. Seeing the Virtuoso reveal made me feel underwhelmed, but seeing the Harbinger reveal right after felt just insulting. All classes, but mesmer in particular, could stand to gain from necro's espec design.

Yeah agreed, it would be great if they could revisit both chrono and mirage F skills among other things, taking notes from how necro specs changed the mechanic. May be unlikely given patch history, but maybe now that virtuoso has provided some kind of proof of concept for making slightly bigger changes, it could be possible that the other especs are reviewed in the future.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Curunen.8729

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

11 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

elite specs are supposed to bring us new cool things.
virtuoso brings nothing new, cool or interesting, it mechanically downgrades our class mechanic and its all it does.
all shatters do the exact same thing, and here I was getting excited for no clone spec.
They could do legit ANYTHING with our F skills, they could easy turn them into their own unique skills, that do something utterly different, but they do the EXACT same thing, but in a WORSE way. YiKeS

Exactly.
They changed completly virtues and couldn't do the same with our F skills? Either laziness or they just don't care.
I mean you don't even have to think about cool mechanics, there are tons of elite specs ideas over the forums (some of them use the same cheap way of doing F skills tho).
 

[Levetty.1279]

1 hour ago, Heinel.6548 said:

The only way I see virtuoso being a worthwhile thing at all is if it's going to take over the DPS role so that chronos can be reworked to a full on support espec. Let's hope it comes to pass.

I hope not. Chrono DPS builds will be far more fun then Virtuoso DPS builds just because Chrono has actually interesting trait, skill and mechanics design.

[Tseison.4659]

Just to give some positivity, I'm pretty happy with the cloneless aspect of Virtuoso and I'd look at it as a great thing only because you won't have to worry about clones dying before they reach their target, any sort of pathing issues for them, clones not being able to shatter their full damage due to enemy stealthing or simply dying before they get there and the list goes. 

 

Yes a bunch of traits for the Virutoso are pretty basic, lazy and it's almost guaranteed that the next batch of elite specs will likely have better kits and traits than we will which is something that we as a Mesmer Community just have to accept. There will always be "suffering" and nerfs that come with our profession and if Anet doesn't want show any sort of enthusiasm towards Mesmers then that's something we have to cope with because clearly our problems are not theirs.

 

⭐There's just a few more days left until BETA so I strongly suggest everyone provide feedback and 🤞 that Anet listens, polishes and delivers upon release because a part of me feels this will be the last expansion and then going forward they'll just come out with small/big patches.

 

At the end of the day for those who've been a Mesmer main for a long time will make the Virtuoso work for US and not the other way around because in a PvP/WvW situation and I guess you can say PvE as well, The Mesmer/Virtuoso in the most skilled hands is a bigger threat than whatever new elite specs get announced. We're adaptable.🔮

Edited August 15, 2021 by Tseison.4659

[Nezekan.2671]

5 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

I hope not. Chrono DPS builds will be far more fun then Virtuoso DPS builds just because Chrono has actually interesting trait, skill and mechanics design.

Really? 2 out of 3 traits on every column are support oriented and pretty much all of its utility skills area support too. If you take away Continium Split, it becomes one of the most boring and passive builds out there. If a class is already 75% support and a power oriented elite spec is coming, might as well make wells affect 10 people and make it full support or even tank in PvE. Its not like its killing the Chrono DPS, since you have to give up some dps to support anyway. 

[Leonidrex.5649]

THB sorry for you all but virtuoso was not made for mesmer players, it was made for non-mesmer players to try it once or twice and move on. Those players dont know that half the traits of virtuoso we get from core, carbon copies. And as they dont play the class for them F skills are fresh and new, not for us.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Leonidrex.5649