[UPDATED from BETA] Arken's brief overview of the WillBender

[Arken.3725]

Hey guys, hope you're all doing well. I did a short stream earlier today to go over my thoughts on the WillBender. This is strictly from an spvp point-of-view.  It's very difficult to give an accurate overview without playing it firsthand but I tried with what we had to work with. 

 

Let me know what you guys think. 

 

https://www.twitch.tv/crusaedir/v/1117565703?sr=a&t=0s

 

Brief TLDR for those who don't plan on watching it.  

 

Traits:  

 

Minors - Righteous Sprint:  Awesome, it's about time Guardian got a minor speed trait  Grade: A.  Lethal Tempo:  Pretty solid way of increasing damage output, fits the theme  Grade: A.

 

Majors-

 

Adept:  Boon Pact:  Very boring and relatively useless to the overall kit.  The amount of self-duration gained isn't worth the massive loss to your teammates, assuming you take utilities outside of WB Grade: F.  Power for Power:  It's a massive loss of toughness for incredible power gains.  This one, just like Boon Pact is very boring in its design but serves a purpose of the whole "assassin" archetype Grade: C+.  Conceited Curate:  Just like Boon Pact, very useless given how selfish WB is going to be.  The amount gained vs what's lost doesn't even come close to being equal Grade F.

 

Master:  Restorative Virtues:  This one has a very unique interaction which I find pretty cool but it feels like it promotes spamming your virtues which is NEVER a good ideaGrade: C-.  Holy Reckoning:  The damage increase on this skill feels like it was tacked on for no apparent reason.  The healing can be significant in a sizeable team-fight but if anything, the dmg increase should be removed and maybe a pulsing condition.  Grade: C+  Vanguard Tactics:  Easily the best of the three.  Guardian has issues sticking to their targets due to the sheer volume of soft-cc to which this helps to resolve with the many ports WB will have access to. Grade: A  

 

Grand Master:  Phoenix Protocol:  This is an interesting trade-off for faster cooldowns to which I'm all for.  You're not losing all your sustain with this trait but until I try it out, it looks relatively weak on paper Grade: B.  Tyrant's Momentum:  Fits the assassin theme WB is going for here.  It seems relatively easy to keep any number of stacks going in any given fight so this increase could provide value Grade: B.  Deathless Courage:  This one sounds incredible.  While technically not an invulnerability since you'll be stuck at 1hp, the increased length of staying alive could make the difference between victory or defeat.  Grade: A - S

 

New Virtues:

 

General:  I feel the need to land 5-hits to get any effect off on all of the new virtues might be a tad too high.  We'll see how it plays live.

 

Rushing Justice:  Cool gap-closer, easily the weakest of the three when it comes to the procs given.  Grade: C-

Flowing Resolve:  Arguably the strongest of the three since it's an evade and provides decent healing.  Again, requiring 5 hits to land for 700 health seems a bit much.  The removal of soft-cc is amazing. Grade: B+

Crashing Courage: Provides decent sustain but again, the number of hits required to keep that sustain feel a tiny bit too high, especially since there's no protection attached. Grade: B+

 

Off-hand Sword:

 

Executioner's Calling:  Amazing damage, going to be difficult to land.  Why you may ask?  It's essentially Death Strike for Revenant without the port attached.  Granted this does seem like it hits harder but it should given how close you have to be and the necessity to use a 2nd skill to even get close to landing it. Grade: B-

Advancing Strike:  Looks amazing, solid damage with a relatively short cd.  Great skill for setting up burst.   Grade: A+

 

Utilities:

 

Reversal of Fortune:  This is easily the best Guardian has ever gotten in terms of a heal.  High reward given for appropriate play with a relatively short cd.  Grade: S

Flash Combo:  A short cd shadow-step with the stipulation of landing all strikes for a return actually sounds great.  It's another skill that grants a decent reward for pulling off what's on the tooltip.  Grade: B+

Whirling Light: Solid damage but with a HEAVILY obvious animation and the fact that you need to be in melee to get the full effect really shortens this skills potential.  The short cd helps quite a bit but given how easily it'll be to interrupt/avoid, I don't see much use out of this.  Grade: C-

Heel Crack:  A short cast-time hard CC, this is the first Stun Guardian will have access too.  However, given the fact that hard-cc's do no damage AND you'll need to be within a decent range to pull it off, this takes up an important slot for survivability.  Grade: D

Roiling Light:  A short cd stun-break with an evade, blind and daze attached.  Actually sounds quite good.  However, when you look at current stun-breaks, they all usually offer some significant sustain benefit after the actual breakage.  This one doesn't.  Say you're full of condi's and get cced, this will do NOTHING for you to sustain.  Even afterwards from a power perspective, this doesn't provide any longer-lasting benefit that say Contemplation of Purity provides.  Grade: B-

Heaven's Palm:  A melee-focused Hard-cc that provides no actual benefit to the WB with something that's heavily telegraphed?  Yeah, this won't see the light of day in any serious, competitive scene.  Grade: D

 

 

 

After Beta Review:

 

This is an updated review after playing the beta for a few days.  

 

Virtue's:

All of the virtue's cd's are way too long given what you lose.  As purely selfish skills, these should be much stronger for the user than any of the current specializations but....they're not.  You lose your passives as well as the necessary hits to land for trigger effects are too many.  F1's after-cast needs to be removed, F2 and F3 are very smooth otherwise.

 

Off-hand Sword:

Executioners calling hits like a wet-noodle, even when fully specced into dps.  It's also WAY too difficult to land and clunky to boot.  If this ability is to maintain its difficulty, the benefits(dmg) need to reflect that.

 

Advancing Strike is really nice, maybe just increase the range a little.

 

Utilities:

Reversal of Fortune:  Completely broken and buggy.  If this works as a true full-counter skill, it would be amazing.

Flash Combo:  It's a fun ability to use just incredibly difficult to land the 5-hits needed for repose, even if the target is just moving.  Cooldown could be slightly lowered as well.

Whirling Light:  This ability feels the most complete.  Granted, it only works well within melee range, it still does good dmg with decent condition application.  I'd put a reflect on this or MAYBE an evasion to make it perfect.  It's almost there.

Heel Crack:  This is the first stun given to Guardian but you need significant follow-up to make this work.  Without that, it's just a waste of a slot.  This one feels like it needs the most work.

Roiling Light:  This stun-break is arguably one of the weakest currently available to Guardian across all specs.  This does almost nothing to sustain you after the initial break.  This needs more cleanse and a far shorter-cd to be viable.

Heaven's Palm:  This feels like an incredibly weak version of Jade Winds, Chill to the Bone, Prime Light Beam, ect.  It's too hard to setup.  This, just like Heel Crack probably need an overhaul.

 

Traits:

 

Minors: 

Righteous Sprint:  Finally, a movement speed trait but the added swiftness feels redundant, maybe superspeed or quickness?

Lethal Tempo:  This is too difficult to upkeep the stacks given how many hits needed from virtue's.  Reduce the necessary hits needed.

 

Majors:

 

Adepts:

I'm all for trade-off's but these are taken way too far.  You're not getting NEARLY as much as you have to give.

 

Boon Pact:  If you want to keep this as is, at least make it equal.  15% does not equate to losing 50%.

Power for Power:  Again, another boring trait.  This one is at least closer to being equal.  Maybe change this into something that gives you a benefit for having one or more swords equipped?

Conceited Curate:  See Boon Pact.

 

Masters:

 

Restorative Virtue's:  This trait heavily encourages you to spam your virtue's which is NEVER a good idea.  Rework this into something else.

Holy Reckoning:  The damage bonus to Willbender flames is tacked on for no reason.  Not to mention, this requires you to keep an enemy within the small circle(just like symbols) to benefit.  Stop giving static mechanics to an obviously dynamic specialization.

Vanguard Tactics:  I like this one, probably doesn't need changing.

 

Grand Masters:

 

Phoenix Protocol:  Too much of a trade-off with the amount of hits to trigger any given effect.  Again, not even close to equal.

Tyrant's Momentum:  This is a little bit easier to access given it works on all virtue procs/activations but It's still VERY difficult to keep those stacks going given how many hits is required in combination with the reduced duration.

Deathless Courage:  Needs a complete overhaul.

 

This overview is STRICTLY for spvp.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Arken.3725
TLDR

[Arken.3725]

Wanted to bump this since I attached some text providing BOTH a grade and my thoughts on the current spec.

[otto.5684]

Thanks 😊

 

I wanna test to see if playing this as power build in pve, with using GS is viable. Considering what the virtues do, not running RF in pvp will be an absolute must. Though, I have have a hunch that RF will not reset the Willbender virtues. Will see.

[Arken.3725]

Anytime. I have an idea of what I'll run so we'll see. Another key reminder is this specialization still doesn't offer soft- cc and no super speed. Granted you have a good amount ports to help. 

 

Also, you gain very little extra mitigation in melee as well. Almost no protection access. 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Seems like a pretty good analysis, i agree that many of the traits look uninspired but we will see when testing starts. I think the main concern for willbender in pvp is the cd reduction trait on virtues + the 5 hit requirement to get active benefits. I would much rather see the hit requirement reduced in exchange for the virtues not being too spammy. With the virtues traitline, restorative virtues, and maybe phoenix protocol you could probably have all 3 active in every fight.

 

Also maybe its just me but the stun break seems really strong. We dont know the pvp splits yet but 15s cooldown with a blind, evade, and 2nd attack with a 3s daze sounds overpowered. Everything else sounds pretty fun.

[Exile.8160]

20 hours ago, Arken.3725 said:

Hey guys, hope you're all doing well. I did a short stream earlier today to go over my thoughts on the WillBender. This is strictly from an spvp point-of-view.  It's very difficult to give an accurate overview without playing it firsthand but I tried with what we had to work with. 

 

Let me know what you guys think. 

 

https://www.twitch.tv/crusaedir/v/1117565703?sr=a&t=0s

 

Brief TLDR for those who don't plan on watching it.  

 

Traits:  

 

Minors - Righteous Sprint:  Awesome, it's about time Guardian got a minor speed trait  Grade: A.  Lethal Tempo:  Pretty solid way of increasing damage output, fits the theme  Grade: A.

 

Majors-

 

Adept:  Boon Pact:  Very boring and relatively useless to the overall kit.  The amount of self-duration gained isn't worth the massive loss to your teammates, assuming you take utilities outside of WB Grade: F.  Power for Power:  It's a massive loss of toughness for incredible power gains.  This one, just like Boon Pact is very boring in its design but serves a purpose of the whole "assassin" archetype Grade: C+.  Conceited Curate:  Just like Boon Pact, very useless given how selfish WB is going to be.  The amount gained vs what's lost doesn't even come close to being equal Grade F.

 

Master:  Restorative Virtues:  This one has a very unique interaction which I find pretty cool but it feels like it promotes spamming your virtues which is NEVER a good ideaGrade: C-.  Holy Reckoning:  The damage increase on this skill feels like it was tacked on for no apparent reason.  The healing can be significant in a sizeable team-fight but if anything, the dmg increase should be removed and maybe a pulsing condition.  Grade: C+  Vanguard Tactics:  Easily the best of the three.  Guardian has issues sticking to their targets due to the sheer volume of soft-cc to which this helps to resolve with the many ports WB will have access to. Grade: A  

 

Grand Master:  Phoenix Protocol:  This is an interesting trade-off for faster cooldowns to which I'm all for.  You're not losing all your sustain with this trait but until I try it out, it looks relatively weak on paper Grade: B.  Tyrant's Momentum:  Fits the assassin theme WB is going for here.  It seems relatively easy to keep any number of stacks going in any given fight so this increase could provide value Grade: B.  Deathless Courage:  This one sounds incredible.  While technically not an invulnerability since you'll be stuck at 1hp, the increased length of staying alive could make the difference between victory or defeat.  Grade: A - S

 

New Virtues:

 

General:  I feel the need to land 5-hits to get any effect off on all of the new virtues might be a tad too high.  We'll see how it plays live.

 

Rushing Justice:  Cool gap-closer, easily the weakest of the three when it comes to the procs given.  Grade: C-

Flowing Resolve:  Arguably the strongest of the three since it's an evade and provides decent healing.  Again, requiring 5 hits to land for 700 health seems a bit much.  The removal of soft-cc is amazing. Grade: B+

Crashing Courage: Provides decent sustain but again, the number of hits required to keep that sustain feel a tiny bit too high, especially since there's no protection attached. Grade: B+

 

Off-hand Sword:

 

Executioner's Calling:  Amazing damage, going to be difficult to land.  Why you may ask?  It's essentially Death Strike for Revenant without the port attached.  Granted this does seem like it hits harder but it should given how close you have to be and the necessity to use a 2nd skill to even get close to landing it. Grade: B-

Advancing Strike:  Looks amazing, solid damage with a relatively short cd.  Great skill for setting up burst.   Grade: A+

 

Utilities:

 

Reversal of Fortune:  This is easily the best Guardian has ever gotten in terms of a heal.  High reward given for appropriate play with a relatively short cd.  Grade: S

Flash Combo:  A short cd shadow-step with the stipulation of landing all strikes for a return actually sounds great.  It's another skill that grants a decent reward for pulling off what's on the tooltip.  Grade: B+

Whirling Light: Solid damage but with a HEAVILY obvious animation and the fact that you need to be in melee to get the full effect really shortens this skills potential.  The short cd helps quite a bit but given how easily it'll be to interrupt/avoid, I don't see much use out of this.  Grade: C-

Heel Crack:  A short cast-time hard CC, this is the first Stun Guardian will have access too.  However, given the fact that hard-cc's do no damage AND you'll need to be within a decent range to pull it off, this takes up an important slot for survivability.  Grade: D

Roiling Light:  A short cd stun-break with an evade, blind and daze attached.  Actually sounds quite good.  However, when you look at current stun-breaks, they all usually offer some significant sustain benefit after the actual breakage.  This one doesn't.  Say you're full of condi's and get cced, this will do NOTHING for you to sustain.  Even afterwards from a power perspective, this doesn't provide any longer-lasting benefit that say Contemplation of Purity provides.  Grade: B-

Heaven's Palm:  A melee-focused Hard-cc that provides no actual benefit to the WB with something that's heavily telegraphed?  Yeah, this won't see the light of day in any serious, competitive scene.  Grade: D

 

 

I would give deathless courage an F for pvp atleast way too situational with the killing an enemy condition and if you have any and I mean even 1 stack of bleed when it end you will go down 

 

And seeing the really low condi cleanse on the new skills its a waste of a grand master trait a lot of the time.

 

I honestly thing the meditation line will make WB viable on (on pvp atleast)  ut we have to wait and see. 

 

Also this E spec might be good for hammer and glaciar heart trait to slow/lock enemies in place. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Exile.8160

[Arken.3725]

You're more or less not hinging Deathless courage for kills but rather the 4 seconds of initial invulnerability.  I put it between A and S because 4 seconds is a long time especially given how short of a cd Crashing Courage has.  

 

Also, during that time your skills are coming off cd and potentially may trigger another heal.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Arken.3725

[otto.5684]

41 minutes ago, Arken.3725 said:

Anytime. I have an idea of what I'll run so we'll see. Another key reminder is this specialization still doesn't offer soft- cc and no super speed. Granted you have a good amount ports to help. 

 

Also, you gain very little extra mitigation in melee as well. Almost no protection access. 

Yup and no hard CC either, except the elite which seems questionable. Similar high mobility builds are thief sword, dagger or staff and power rev. Both have a significant amount of CC. I think one of the utilities had daze. It seems much will be riding on the elite skill. Cuz, even pre the terrible Feb 2020, downing highly skilled opponents, without CC or coordinated damage, was pretty hard. In the current meta it is an exercise in futility. 

[Exile.8160]

2 minutes ago, Arken.3725 said:

You're more or less not hinging Deathless courage for kills but rather the 4 seconds of initial invulnerability.  I put it between A and S because 4 seconds is a long time especially given how short of a cd Crashing Courage has.  

 

Also, during that time your skills are coming off cd and potentially may trigger another heal.

Thats the thing its not invulnerability you can still get hit by strike dmg and condies you just dont go belove 1 health.

 

Yeah if you heal that may help but again its too situational youve have to hope a heal skill is up in those 4 sec not imposible but not guarantee either.

[Arken.3725]

To the both of you:

 

@otto.5684

 

It's true, you'll not have as much mitigation when actually in melee compared to both core and even dh.  Core at least offers instant virtues for mitigation and dh offers durational-frontal blocks to continue fighting.

 

@Exile.8160  It's technically not an invuln but if used at an opportune moment, it could pay off.  It's essentially this:  Pop it and don't dodge, just mess stuff up.  

[Ragnar.4257]

My take on the virtues is that being tied to the "on-hit" mechanic means this spec will be doomed to be nerfed into oblivion soon after release. Let me explain why.

 

Hit 5 times -> get effect (burning, healing, aegis/stab)

 

This mechanic means it has the potential to be ludicrously strong in large fights, where it is very easy to get multiple strikes per second. But it also means it is alot weaker in 1v1 scenario, where you are unlikely to be racking up 20+ hits in a short space of time.

 

This makes it basically impossible to balance. If you tune the numbers for 1v1, it'll be absurdly broken in large fights. If you tune the numbers for large fights, it'll be useless in 1v1. 

 

Given that this is being pushed as more of a skirmishing type build, you'd expect it to be tuned more for 1v1. So what will happen on release is people will use it in large fights where it'll be ludicrously effective, so it'll have to be nerfed, and therefore goodbye smallscale 1v1 spec.

 

We already saw this happen with Permeating Wrath. Now the same mechanic is being extended to the F2/3.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Downstate.4697]

Give the heal an icd per target. Fixed it.

[Arken.3725]

It's very possible for the on-hit virtue's to be nerfed but as it stands(for spvp specifically), i don't feel like it'll be incredibly powerful.  WvW?  Absolutely due to the sheer volume of players.  

[Dahkeus.8243]

21 hours ago, Arken.3725 said:

Heaven's Palm:  A melee-focused Hard-cc that provides no actual benefit to the WB with something that's heavily telegraphed?  Yeah, this won't see the light of day in any serious, competitive scene.  Grade: D

 

 

I think this is being heavily underestimated.  The telegraph is obvious, yes, but it's something to be used in combo with shadow steps, like JI.  This is something with some amazing potential at spiking targets in the middle of team fights since it's a short cd that separates support from the target and heavily punishes anyone without a stunbreak available.

[Arken.3725]

8 minutes ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

I think this is being heavily underestimated.  The telegraph is obvious, yes, but it's something to be used in combo with shadow steps, like JI.  This is something with some amazing potential at spiking targets in the middle of team fights since it's a short cd that separates support from the target and heavily punishes anyone without a stunbreak available.

That's the only way to use it and EVEN then, good luck landing it.  This is essentially a weaker version of Prime Light Beam.  It's not unblockable and requires melee range for it to work.

[Math.5123]

10 minutes ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

I think this is being heavily underestimated.  The telegraph is obvious, yes, but it's something to be used in combo with shadow steps, like JI.  This is something with some amazing potential at spiking targets in the middle of team fights since it's a short cd that separates support from the target and heavily punishes anyone without a stunbreak available.

It gets blocked by a single aegis.

It won't see the light of day. I would honestly run Signet of courage over this kitten.

[Ragnar.4257]

Given that its right in melee range, it's more comparable to the Daredevil elite. Things like PLB, Jade Winds, Chilled to the Bone, all have the advantage of being cast from safety.

[Arken.3725]

My picks for traits are going to be as follows(assuming they stay the way they are):

 

Adept:  Power for Power

Master:  Vanguard Tactics

Grand Master: Phoenix Protocol

 

The GM's are relatively close together in terms of POSSIBLE effectiveness.  

[Tulkas.2576]

I think the elite could be decent when combined with judges intervention. If it’s a 4 second knockdown in pvp that’s a kittenin death sentence, plus the knock back on other enemies. 
That does require two long cool downs and 2 slots to pull off though, so probably won’t get used much as is. 
 

I think the interactions with virtues trait line will actually be really good, inspiring virtues was the main one I question.

 

radiance traitline with the sword trait will be amazing if it applies to off hand sword. 
 

 

[Tulkas.2576]

3 hours ago, Math.5123 said:

It gets blocked by a single aegis.

It won't see the light of day. I would honestly run Signet of courage over this kitten.

I actually forgot about signet of courage. With the low cds of the new F skills, renewed focus might not be as valuable. Signet of courage combined with Deathless Courage could actually be really awesome. 

[Arcaedus.7290]

@Arken.3725

Yo! I listened to your hour n a half vod there. This is a pretty good analysis.

I agree with your ratings of each of the utilities and skills. Only two disagreements I have:

1. I feel like the only reason Deathless Courage is going to be is good as it will be, is that glass canon WBs are going to be able to lay out some serious hurt and get away with it thanks to this trait. I'd give it a grade of B+. Solid, extremely useful for some builds (and likely useful for what will be the meta WB build), but the other two GMs offer very stiff competition.

2. I think Roiling Light is really good. It's true that it doesn't offer some of the recovery/sustain that our other stun breaks do, but it has such as low cooldown and offers such amazing economy for a single skill. I'd give it a B+ as a skill.

Question for you: Why Zeal? I think for Willbender/Radiance, you get more out of Virtues as your 3rd traitline - 3 condis cleansed/20s, additional protection uptime, excellent resolution access, and an additional stunbreak. Zeal gives you a bump in damage, but between Destroyer ammy/Radiance/Willbender, you probably have more than enough damage

Edited August 15, 2021 by Arcaedus.7290

[Downstate.4697]

15 minutes ago, Arcaedus.7290 said:

@Arken.3725

Yo! I listened to your hour n a half vod there. This is a pretty good analysis.

I agree with your ratings of each of the utilities and skills. Only two disagreements I have:

1. I feel like the only reason Deathless Courage is going to be is good as it will be, is that glass canon WBs are going to be able to lay out some serious hurt and get away with it thanks to this trait. I'd give it a grade of B+. Solid, extremely useful for some builds (and likely useful for what will be the meta WB build), but the other two GMs offer very stiff competition.

2. I think Roiling Light is really good. It's true that it doesn't offer some of the recovery/sustain that our other stun breaks do, but it has such as low cooldown and offers such amazing economy for a single skill. I'd give it a B+ as a skill.

Question for you: Are there any builds you plan on trying during the beta that DON'T involve meditations or the valor trait line?

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWABw2l7lFwuYZMMGJW8TZA-zVRYgRDGOiZngFnFBNjA-w

 

I wanna try something like this. 

[The Boz.2038]

On 8/14/2021 at 3:24 AM, Arken.3725 said:

very useless given how selfish WB is going to be

Your understanding of the espec is impressive and your logic impeccable.

"This trait reduces the team utility of a 0-team-utility selfish build, in return for selfish gains. Obviously useless."
Masterful deduction.

[Hogwarts Zebra.8597]

I doubt deathless courage would see much play. You're literally guaranteed to die the instant the 4 seconds are up unless u chain RF into the end of it. You'll have accumulated quite a few condis during the 4 seconds of facetanking and even if you cleanse at the end, ur still at 1 health from all that facetanking so if anyone looks at u u just die. 

The DPS trait looks alot more promising--in fact it's the only GM trait that actually looks useful for pvp. 

 

Flash Combo's viability would depend on how exactly the 5 strikes are executed. If you're forced to stand still (like a mini hundred blades or blurred frenzy) then it'd be garbage--nobody's gonna get hit by all 5 strikes. But if you can actually move during the cast then it'd probably be pretty widely used. 

[Arken.3725]

@Arcaedus.7290

 

At first I was thinking Zeal to feed fury/resolution for maximum crit-chance but now that I think of it more, Virtue's maybe the better choice for overall sustain and a tiny bit of Resolution access.  

 

IF things remain the way they are, Virtue's will provide SIGNIFICANT sustain given the short cd's of each new virtue.  If you spec into both indomitable courage AND absolute resolution, you'll maintain a serious amount of both protection AND condition clear. 

 

However, given the low access to Aegis now, unscathed contender might never see the light of day for effectiveness.

 

@The Boz.2038

 

Thanks brother, lol.

 

@Hogwarts Zebra.8597

 

Here's more input as I think on it a bit more.

 

Tyrant's Momentum can be a serious competitor because it applies to ANY virtue proc whereas Phoenix Protocol only works with Resolve and Deathless Courage only works with.....Courage.

 

Flash's combo to me, is more useful just for the initial port which is BOTH instant and guaranteed.  The return is just icing on top of the cake.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Arken.3725