My take on the Necro nerfs.

[Genesis.5169]

Necro's weren't op.

No i don't play one don't own one never will play one class is too one dimensional for me (tho i did own one way back in PoF where they were stronger) feel free to ask me to post my characters.

 

It was popular because it was easy to play and required very little brain power to use, it is no more or less tanky then any of the other bunkers out there, and i can confidently say it deals less damage then bunker weaver. Let me add i'm quite sure this isn't a higher difficulty should give more rewards and lesser difficulty should give lesser reawrd as Anet had a stance on this on the old forums which was against that stance and well look at the state of mesmers. This is more of the same from anet, folks want to say devs don't read the forums here's another example right here. Necro's were over-represented yes but so are warriors and rangers, mesmers have been under-represented since this game's inception and have been hit the hardest with nerfs class popularity is an indication of just popularity and that's it.

 

What needs to be address is that bunker busters do not exist in any real meaningful way all your doing is trying to figure a away to bandaid around the issues of tanks (bunkers) existing when you have and entire game mode about capturing points. Half of bunker busting died with the condition nerf due to toughness now being able to cover 90% of damage done in pvp. And no i'm not asking for the removal of bunker's i'm asking for tools to remove them in-game instead slowing down the meta over and over and ruining classes because people are too afraid of dying or what ever excuse it was to nerf damage.

 

Do it anyway you want to :

Give a higher modifier on traits when targets are low hp.

Or bring back condition damage so a toughness isn't the 100% to your needs, its hard  to have toughness and high protection and high conditional removal all at once.

Or don't bring back condition and just buff classes only meant to do damage like thief and mesmers.

Hell you can make it so people standing on point for a long period of time get a stacking vul debuff (Once already capped) till they get off the point for 3 seconds.

Or add more tool's like poison and vul for everyone.

How about we add things to other classes to do things to these issue's instead of deleting content.

 

 

I do not want a pvp game mode where everyone is a varied form of a bruiser and its increasingly looking like that's the direction that you want to go in Anet.

This is another warning in my long line of warnings.

 

This march to homogenization will destroy pvp permanently, as it has many competitive game modes in games.

And yeah Anet looks at the forums, stop trying to deny this.

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Genesis.5169
Some typo's and grammar checks i know its still bad.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Or, they can give hard CC it's damage back, scaled to the relative power of the current meta.

[Leonidrex.5649]

37 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Necro's weren't op.

No i don't play one don't own one never will play one class is too one dimensional for me (tho i did own one way back in PoF where they were stronger) feel free to ask me to post my characters.

 

It was popular because it was easy to play and required very little brain power to use, it is no more or less tanky then any of the other bunkers out there, and i can confidently say it deals less damage then bunker weaver. Let me add i'm quite sure this isn't a higher difficulty should give more rewards and lesser difficulty should give lesser reawrd as Anet had a stance on this on the old forums which was against that stance and well look at the state of mesmers. This is more of the same from anet, folks want to say devs don't read the forums here's another example right here. Necro's were over-represented yes but so are warriors and rangers, mesmers have been under-represented since this game's inception and have been hit the hardest with nerfs class popularity is an indication of just popularity and that's it.

 

What needs to be address is that bunker busters do no exist in any real meaningful way all your doing is trying to figure our away to bandaid around the issues of tanks (bunkers) existing when you have and entire game mode about capturing points. Half of bunker busting died with the condition nerf due to toughness now being able to cover 90% of damage done in pvp. And no i'm not asking for the removal of bunker's i'm asking for tools to remove them in-game instead slowing down the meta over and over and ruining classes because people are too afraid of dying or what ever excuse it was to nerf damage.

 

Do it anyway you want to :

Give a higher modifier on traits when targets are low hp.

Or bring back condition damage so a toughness isn't the 100% to your needs, its hard  to have toughness and high protection and high boon removal all at once.

Or don't bring back condition and just buff classes only meant to do damage like thief and mesmers.

Hell you can make it so people standing on point for a long period of time get a stacking vul debuff (Once already capped) till they get off the point for 3 seconds.

Or add more tool's like poison and vul for everyone.

How about we add things to other classes to do things to these issue's instead of deleting content.

 

 

I do not want a pvp game mode where everyone is a varied form of a bruiser and its increasingly looking like that's the direction that you want to go in Anet.

This is another warning in my long line of warnings.

 

This march to homogenization will destroy pvp permanently, as it has many competitive game modes in games.

And yeah Anet looks at the forums, stop trying to deny this.

 

what you fail to realize is that scourge was not a bunker, scourge role in pvp was a SUPPORT.
A support that happened to be a bunker with decent enough damage to push people off node, and while bunker weaver is tankier then scourge, it did not give those barriers to allies, and thus wasnt such a big problem

[BlackTruth.6813]

Well Ranger, Guardian, Mesmer kinda more braindead than Necro overall because at least Necro only really has "effective HP" and no evades. Necro did have combinations that overall took more skill than Guardian, Mesmer, Ranger builds in general because at least they weren't evade spammers. But Necro did have a lot of obnoxious instant cast BS that heavily punished people the moment stability got corrupted or you ran out of stun breaks. And they were historically tanky while doing it.

 

The damage nerf was an indirect buff to Necro tbh because their effective HP was better than most classes. I'm sure it was a similar case when shoutbreaker was meta, ANET literally forgot to nerf shouts healing after the "across the board damage nerf." This case is probably another one of those "we nerf damage across the board but we forgot to nerf this at the same time" kinda like when ANET nerfed Frenzy back in 2013 and FORGOT TO COMPENSATE because ANET balance team are incompetent brain damage people.

 

History truly repeats itself also TL;DR ANET balance team sucks because when they change something they forget to compensate.

 

[Genesis.5169]

22 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

what you fail to realize is that scourge was not a bunker, scourge role in pvp was a SUPPORT.
A support that happened to be a bunker with decent enough damage to push people off node, and while bunker weaver is tankier then scourge, it did not give those barriers to allies, and thus wasnt such a big problem

 

This is a good point but if your running water and you should as a bunker weaver they bring alot of aoe heal and condition cleanse so they also fulfill the role of support.

 

Tho your point is a good one and honestly i did not factor in aoe shields that allies get, however i still don't agree it made them OP. by the way your a treasure on the forums.

[Leonidrex.5649]

37 minutes ago, BlackTruth.6813 said:

Well Ranger, Guardian, Mesmer kinda more braindead than Necro overall because at least Necro only really has "effective HP" and no evades. Necro did have combinations that overall took more skill than Guardian, Mesmer, Ranger builds in general because at least they weren't evade spammers. But Necro did have a lot of obnoxious instant cast BS that heavily punished people the moment stability got corrupted or you ran out of stun breaks. And they were historically tanky while doing it.

 

The damage nerf was an indirect buff to Necro tbh because their effective HP was better than most classes. I'm sure it was a similar case when shoutbreaker was meta, ANET literally forgot to nerf shouts healing after the "across the board damage nerf." This case is probably another one of those "we nerf damage across the board but we forgot to nerf this at the same time" kinda like when ANET nerfed Frenzy back in 2013 and FORGOT TO COMPENSATE because ANET balance team are incompetent brain damage people.

 

History truly repeats itself also TL;DR ANET balance team sucks because when they change something they forget to compensate.

 

Lol, mesmer takes way more skill then necro, evades/stealth/blocks can be used poorly and punished, there is nothing punishing raw HP. You cant fail to make value of having 3x HP of other people, you just have it and there is that, meanwhile dodges/blocks can be baited and punished

[ArthurDent.9538]

3 hours ago, BlackTruth.6813 said:

Well Ranger, Guardian, Mesmer kinda more braindead than Necro overall because at least Necro only really has "effective HP" and no evades. Necro did have combinations that overall took more skill than Guardian, Mesmer, Ranger builds in general because at least they weren't evade spammers. But Necro did have a lot of obnoxious instant cast BS that heavily punished people the moment stability got corrupted or you ran out of stun breaks. And they were historically tanky while doing it.

 

The damage nerf was an indirect buff to Necro tbh because their effective HP was better than most classes. I'm sure it was a similar case when shoutbreaker was meta, ANET literally forgot to nerf shouts healing after the "across the board damage nerf." This case is probably another one of those "we nerf damage across the board but we forgot to nerf this at the same time" kinda like when ANET nerfed Frenzy back in 2013 and FORGOT TO COMPENSATE because ANET balance team are incompetent brain damage people.

 

History truly repeats itself also TL;DR ANET balance team sucks because when they change something they forget to compensate.

 

Clearly, HP sponge passively soaking damage is skill full while actively avoiding damage is braindead. These forums man.

[Abyssisis.3971]

Gonna be honest, I stopped reading when you said “nerco weren’t OP”

 

 

[Genesis.5169]

5 hours ago, Abyssisis.3971 said:

Gonna be honest, I stopped reading when you said “nerco weren’t OP”

 

 

 

You shoulda also stopped posting then.

[Widmo.3186]

13 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

 

This is a good point but if your running water and you should as a bunker weaver they bring alot of aoe heal and condition cleanse so they also fulfill the role of support.

 

Tho your point is a good one and honestly i did not factor in aoe shields that allies get, however i still don't agree it made them OP. by the way your a treasure on the forums.

Mhm, and what else should weaver run if he wants to be a bunker? Maybe earth with Stone Heart, just like good old days?

"alot of aoe heal and condition cleanse" - you really compare Scourge barrier spam to weaver healing? Lol. Tbh the biggest healing sw/d weaver (because you chose water traitline) provides is from utilizing water field - and that can be done by any class with blast combo finisher. Passive healing is mostly used by weaver himself, and other skills? Cmon, switching to water attun, dodging in water attun and water 5 (+ maybe water 4 if some1 is good enough). Those are barely 3 skills with so low healing that it cant be considered as a support, ofc its a nice addition of few k healing, but thats close to nothing compared to real support/bunker. And condi cleanse? With condi spam it wont save any1 life, especially that you would need to basically stick to some1 with so low radius. 

Weaver healing is decent, but for himself, for others I wouldnt consider it doing more than 4k healing and 3 condi cleanses once in a while (and thats at best, because weaver needs to keep rotating compared to Scourge, thus he has his own things to do to make him useful instead of paying attention who randomly needs to get healing from offhand water attun, lol). Scourge barrier nerfs are well deserved 

[Metzie.3012]

16 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Or, they can give hard CC it's damage back, scaled to the relative power of the current meta.

 

Going backwards again, i.e. giving the damage back to hard control effects, seems to me personally inappropriate. ANet has gone this way, they have also made or announced adjustments (of which one did not really notice much and if so, then rather poorly), then they should maintain this way. So much for that.

 

BUT, what I could personally see ANet doing is adding a secondary mechanic to hard control effects (similar to ranger greatsword 4, counterattack) that unlocks another skill - one that deals damage - if the CC was successful.

 

What about that?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Metzie.3012 said:

 

Going backwards again, i.e. giving the damage back to hard control effects, seems to me personally inappropriate. ANet has gone this way, they have also made or announced adjustments (of which one did not really notice much and if so, then rather poorly), then they should maintain this way. So much for that.

 

BUT, what I could personally see ANet doing is adding a secondary mechanic to hard control effects (similar to ranger greatsword 4, counterattack) that unlocks another skill - one that deals damage - if the CC was successful.

 

What about that?

That would be a lot more work on their part, i.e. will not get done. Giving damage back, but scaled down to the current meta would be a step forward. They could even rework stability to negate the damage from CCs, which would be fair.

[Spellhunter.9675]

On 8/14/2021 at 9:38 PM, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Lol, mesmer takes way more skill then necro, evades/stealth/blocks can be used poorly and punished, there is nothing punishing raw HP.

It takes so much skill to fight enemy who can't fight back because of invulns, dodge-frames, interrupts for about 20 seconds straight. Must have 200 IQ for playing mesmer or smthn.

[Genesis.5169]

On 8/15/2021 at 4:08 AM, Widmo.3186 said:

Mhm, and what else should weaver run if he wants to be a bunker? Maybe earth with Stone Heart, just like good old days?

"alot of aoe heal and condition cleanse" - you really compare Scourge barrier spam to weaver healing? Lol. Tbh the biggest healing sw/d weaver (because you chose water traitline) provides is from utilizing water field - and that can be done by any class with blast combo finisher. Passive healing is mostly used by weaver himself, and other skills? Cmon, switching to water attun, dodging in water attun and water 5 (+ maybe water 4 if some1 is good enough). Those are barely 3 skills with so low healing that it cant be considered as a support, ofc its a nice addition of few k healing, but thats close to nothing compared to real support/bunker. And condi cleanse? With condi spam it wont save any1 life, especially that you would need to basically stick to some1 with so low radius. 

Weaver healing is decent, but for himself, for others I wouldnt consider it doing more than 4k healing and 3 condi cleanses once in a while (and thats at best, because weaver needs to keep rotating compared to Scourge, thus he has his own things to do to make him useful instead of paying attention who randomly needs to get healing from offhand water attun, lol). Scourge barrier nerfs are well deserved 

 

Healing and Barriers do the same thing.

They increase your effective hp for example.

 

If i have a barrier for 3k and get healed for 3k my effective hp in combat is the exact same. scourges are not going to consistently get barriers on everyone in the fight were the heals and condition cleanses will as they are far greater range.

[Leonidrex.5649]

7 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

It takes so much skill to fight enemy who can't fight back because of invulns, dodge-frames, interrupts for about 20 seconds straight. Must have 200 IQ for playing mesmer or smthn.

must have 201 to play necro, to just have more HP then enemy damage and win by default, that is the peak of skill right there.
70k HP necro club, wub wub wub

[mortrialus.3062]

Necros are absurdly overpopulated right now, have been stupid busted ever since the megabalance, and the patch notes didn't go far enough. I only occasionally dip my toes back into PvP to see how bad it is and in the last session I played about 15 games and not one game did necros ever once dip below 40% representation in a match, usually hit 50% per match, and in a few games hit 60-70% representation per match.  Necro's weren't this omnipresent when POF released with Scourge. 

 

Necromantic Corruption should get smiter's booned.  Braindead minionmancer builds are running around with what is effectively a passive condition cleanse ever 2 seconds.  And it can get transferred back to you.  That's just way too much durability towards conditions for any build to have passively rolling on them, that's 30 per minute.  Minionmancers were banished from PvP for a reason.  Like if you compare a similar trait, Wilderness Knowledge (Survival Skills cleanse 2 conditions on use) a ranger with all Survival Skills is still only going to be getting 18 cleanses out of them per minute at most and that is a grandmaster.  Elusive Mind, 2 cleanse on dodge, will get  you 12 cleanses per minute, 18 if you are triggering Sigil of Cleansing every opportunity.  This thing straight up needs a 60% effectiveness reduction. If you bumped the minion transfer cooldown up to 30 seconds, they would still cleanse 10 conditions passively per minute which is still in the ballpark of full on Grand Master traits and it still has the minion damage boosting functionality.

 

Second what they should also really really hit is Spectral Walk and Flesh Wurm.  Spectral Walk was already best in slot when it got the 6 condition cleanse buff to it and it's been absolutely glued to every necromancer build ever since.  And Fleshwurm also really should get hit as well it gets used on kitten near every single build as well that isn't braindead minion mancers.  Between Spectral Walk and Flesh Wurm necromancer's can teleport more units of distance per minute than a Mirage with Blink and Jaunt.  Now granted, Spectral Walk and Flesh Wurm are defensive, but there's no reason for necromancers to be more mobile in any capacity than Mesmers.  They are way too god kitten mobile for the single most durable thing in the game right now.

 

Finally, it's time to look at 50% damage reduction while in shroud.  Necromancers were competitive, top tier and meta frankly, and had plenty of survivability before the megabalance when everyone was doing 30-50% more damage than they're doing now.  And they're always going to be a problem post megablance due to everyone's damage numbers being far lower than what Death Shroud was designed to handle.