I don't feel bad for necromancers

[Rouien.5234]

A lot of my friends were talking about how they were upset that necros take full damage in life shroud with the new spec and how they lose max HP to do their stuff and like- Boo hooo cry me a river.

LIKE /Bruh/, yall been raidbosses for like 8 years now. I feel no empathy. Welcome to half the problems thief deal with, kid.

But on a serious note, I hope the gameplay is rewarding and fun in general! I hear a lot of theory crafting about it being super powerful and I hope that there is something good that comes out of it because, it's not right for any class to be given any type of unplayable spec.

[SeTect.5918]

I am Weaver and feel bad for them.

Depending on current numbers and facts, thats really going to be glassier than ele. If this will be like this...good luck...
11k hp in full vipers with no barrier, no 2nd healthbar, no good sustain in traits and whatever.
Adding self-conditions. But ayyy, good luck in fractals.

All talking about high risk high reward but will it really be like this?
Scourges current benchmark is extremely high atm. They took away 50% hp + barrier/shroud hp. Thats massive. If thats not going to be 46k+ benchmark (what it wont be), they have to buff sustain FOR SURE.
We ll see on tuesday but...if i am right here....better add some new downstate skills, going to need them. 😂

Edited August 14, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[LucianDK.8615]

19 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

I am Weaver and feel bad for them.

Depending on current numbers and facts, thats really going to be glassier than ele. If this will be like this...good luck...
11k hp in full vipers with no barrier, no 2nd healthbar, no good sustain in traits and whatever.
Adding self-conditions. But ayyy, good luck in fractals.

All talking about high risk high reward but will it really be like this?
Scourges current benchmark is extremely high atm. They took away 50% hp + barrier/shroud hp. Thats massive. If thats not going to be 46k+ benchmark (what it wont be), they have to buff sustain FOR SURE.
We ll see on tuesday but...if i am right here....better add some new downstate skills, going to need them. 😂

How high is Scourges currently doing?

[SeTect.5918]

2 minutes ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

How high is Scourges currently doing?

depending on snowcrows benchmark: 36k dps which is rly op for that amount of sustain that it has imo

Thats why i said that harbinger having like 38-40k dps for that hard nerf would be stupid af. Hope they get some sustain boost.

Edited August 14, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[Infusion.7149]

Well scourge is sort of busted sustain-wise (considering ranged and 37Kish) but harbinger will provide quickness to others when traited as well as a short duration of all boons (with elite elixir). It could very well be a high DPS quickness share build like 34K or something while sharing quickness but 40-42K without any boons going out.

Current quickness builds are all 27-31K with allies.

 

Harbinger has the vitality trait +360 as a minor so I don't think the health will be as huge a problem as you make it since they can be healed in shroud. Blight will only be a problem in competitive modes if you aren't running vitality (such as lich rune , trailblazer/marauder stat).

Blight could very well be changed from 2% per stack to less by the way. Right now it's capped at 25 stacks for a total -50% health but it could be 1.5% or 1% per stack in the future. It was stated in the stream they are going to keep an eye on how effective blight is.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[SeTect.5918]

14 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Well scourge is sort of busted sustain-wise (considering ranged and 37Kish) but harbinger will provide quickness to others when traited as well as a short duration of all boons (with elite elixir). It could very well be a high DPS quickness share build like 34K or something while sharing quickness but 40-42K without any boons going out.

Current quickness builds are all 27-31K with allies.

 

Harbinger has the vitality trait +360 as a minor so I don't think the health will be as huge a problem as you make it since they can be healed in shroud. Blight will only be a problem in competitive modes if you aren't running vitality (such as lich rune , trailblazer/marauder stat).

Blight could very well be changed from 2% per stack to less by the way. Right now it's capped at 25 stacks for a total -50% health but it could be 1.5% or 1% per stack in the future. It was stated in the stream they are going to keep an eye on how effective blight is.

Exactly what i basically mean. Tbh even if i look at reaper, that spec should better do a heck of a dps with that sustain.

My only problem is the hp ofc. The healing and so on is totally fine ofc, u can also use tormenting runes.

But as power build with berserker to put max dmg or vipers with self-condis to deal max dmg, u ll rly have problems with that health.
11k hp without vit stats (but with trait of harbinger) to and no defensive traits is really too easy to get a 1shot. Ofc its ranged with pistol but in shroud u also have close range skills.

The last point you said is exactly what i would like to see. I dont wanna make some previous discussions about: oooh nooo we re getting 1shots everywhere. Because i didnt play it yet, but I really got fears coming up when i saw the hp and traits. This is not going to work in fractals even if @Cal Cohen.2358@Cal Cohen.3527says that we have to deal with it that we need a support. A support cant heal 1hits to make that clear 😂

Its either getting 45k+ dps with the current hp or getting some blight reduces. I saw lots of people talking about blight and so on.
Being afraid putting up blight because of that health and no defense. Reducing to 1% or sth would rly help. Or maybe more synergy with blight by a minor trait like: While having over 15 blight: Reducing the hp loss by blight from 2% to 1% and gaining maybe 1 bonus reward like or sth like that. Would make people trying to reach over 15 blight all the time and not being afraid of it.

Or maybe something else, just ideas.

But as i said, this are just fears coming up and we ll see on tuesday.

[Infusion.7149]

48 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Exactly what i basically mean. Tbh even if i look at reaper, that spec should better do a heck of a dps with that sustain.

My only problem is the hp ofc. The healing and so on is totally fine ofc, u can also use tormenting runes.

But as power build with berserker to put max dmg or vipers with self-condis to deal max dmg, u ll rly have problems with that health.
11k hp without vit stats (but with trait of harbinger) to and no defensive traits is really too easy to get a 1shot. Ofc its ranged with pistol but in shroud u also have close range skills.

The last point you said is exactly what i would like to see. I dont wanna make some previous discussions about: oooh nooo we re getting 1shots everywhere. Because i didnt play it yet, but I really got fears coming up when i saw the hp and traits. This is not going to work in fractals even if @Cal Cohen.2358@Cal Cohen.3527says that we have to deal with it that we need a support. A support cant heal 1hits to make that clear 😂

Its either getting 45k+ dps with the current hp or getting some blight reduces. I saw lots of people talking about blight and so on.
Being afraid putting up blight because of that health and no defense. Reducing to 1% or sth would rly help. Or maybe more synergy with blight by a minor trait like: While having over 15 blight: Reducing the hp loss by blight from 2% to 1% and gaining maybe 1 bonus reward like or sth like that. Would make people trying to reach over 15 blight all the time and not being afraid of it.

Or maybe something else, just ideas.

But as i said, this are just fears coming up and we ll see on tuesday.

Too early to say , for me I will be testing it on condi first. I wouldn't bother with power spec since you can't get massive boon duration on power without running diviner really , pistol is mostly condition damage, and if you are pure pDPS the shroud would have to outdo reaper shroud which is something akin to 25K auto attack. The Twisted Medicine trait is vitality to concentration (see https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Harbinger) , we recently had it up to date (some other editors helped put the templates and editing). MajesticNoodle also posted all of them on https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/p3uhim/all_harbinger_skilltrait_tooltips/

If going power you'd probably run double wells (well of suffering, well of darkness) plus signet of spite for power bonus. You would not use elixirs because none of them have damage. Wicked Corruption gives you a damage bonus per stack of blight which makes it extremely clunky for power builds as all utility elixirs give 5 stacks (elite elixir is 10 stacks) and you need to build blight per second in shroud. Cascading Corruption on the other hand is +180 power. Soul Eater for Reapers is a flat 10% and Cold Shoulder is 15% , even before accounting for +300 ferocity in reaper shroud (+20% crit). For me it is rather clear I'd rather play reaper for power.

To me it seems the optimal use of the spec is condi DPS or condi boon similar to scourge but offensive boons such as quickness rather than defensive barriers. 3 stacks of torment (1.7-2.5K Damage) along with weakness with Doom Approaches seems stronger than the power equivalent trait Cascading Corruption which is 538 damage tooltip every 3s. In addition, weakness is damage mitigation. If not running Twisted Medicine for Elixir sharing then you can run the condi oriented Dark Gunslinger which gives expertise from vitality and reduces pistol recharge. Condition damage should excel over scourge if using pistol + warhorn for CC with scepter + dagger for DPS as you have a larger skillpool ; Blood is Power + Signet of Undeath are both core necro skills and Punishment skills as a skill type aren't particularly strong in PVE. I'm not sure how Dhuumfire will be balanced for Harbinger Shroud but you should be able to proc it more than on scourge. The blight mechanic is far more conducive to conditions that need time to ramp since while you're in Harbinger Shroud you accumulate blight.
 

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[LucianDK.8615]

From looking at https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Harbinger  It indeed seems that condi is the way to go. I will definitely agree that scepter on offhand swap is a good idea to have for access to Devouring Darkness.  Though it sure will be interesting to see what you will be expected to run in groups as a Harbinger. Flaskbot or condidps.

 

But I definitely want to see how Harbinger flask support stacks up vs Scourge barriers and being far less squishy.

Edited August 15, 2021 by LucianDK.8615

[Aeolus.3615]

15 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

depending on snowcrows benchmark: 36k dps which is rly op for that amount of sustain that it has imo

Thats why i said that harbinger having like 38-40k dps for that hard nerf would be stupid af. Hope they get some sustain boost.

 

it will be the orther way arorund, scourge is not a tank, scourge will have to choose from sturdiness or damage cant have both, soon or later this patch will hit, ANet said some time  ago they are wayting for EoD release to see what they can do to scourge.

Scourge was a bad design for gw2 gameplay.

[LucianDK.8615]

15 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

it will be the orther way arorund, scourge is not a tank, scourge will have to choose from sturdiness or damage cant have both, soon or later this patch will hit, ANet said some time  ago they are wayting for EoD release to see what they can do to scourge.

Scourge was a bad design for gw2 gameplay.

As I wholly expected, the Scourge nerfed into oblivion to make Harbingers the new hotness.  The same happened to Reaper when Scourge came out.

[Aeolus.3615]

5 minutes ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

As I wholly expected, the Scourge nerfed into oblivion to make Harbingers the new hotness.  The same happened to Reaper when Scourge came out.

 

Yet Reaper is still one of the best classes in all game modes..

Edited August 15, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[LucianDK.8615]

5 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

Yet Reaper is still one of the best classes in all game modes..

 

Best? In unorganized stuff and overworld, anywhere else? Definitely not.

[Aeolus.3615]

8 minutes ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

 

Best? In unorganized stuff and overworld, anywhere else? Definitely not.

 

In wvw u see more reapers than warriors wonder why, even some groups stack scourges and reapers.

 

Just because isnt broken like in the past that doesnt means its not strong..... remember the perma chill builds damage ouput???

It had to be toned down, its still a viable dps class, with secondary life bar(altough i dont agree much how it works).

Edited August 15, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Asum.4960]

55 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

Yet Reaper is still one of the best classes in all game modes..

These perspectives on class power are always so situational, esp. for Necro. 

 

If you don't "main" Necro in PvE, you probably remember recent stark increases in popularity with buffs very strongly, while glossing over it largely being trash the ~8 years before that which players had to endure. 

If you play WvW, you probably think Scourge is and always was god Tier, while as PvE endgame player, you recall being straight up asked to switch or kicked from groups for 95% of it's lifetime because it wasn't performing. 

Reaper finally got pretty good one year ago, while largely being bottom tier and unwanted for 5 years before that. 

Even in PvP, Scourge was far from a constant powerhouse with long stretches of being pretty much completely unplayable, with short bursts of being pretty much brokenly strong.

Core Necro has been a staple for PvP for a while now, being at least decent for a few years, sometimes even slightly overperforming, while being an absolute all around joke in PvE.

 

Necro, probably more than any other class, due to it's super hard to balance and poorly designed mechanics (combining almost all defense and offense of the class into one single mechanic and resource) has always been prone to extreme flip flopping with the half a year flavour of balance - and by nature of it's mechanics performs vastly differently between gamemodes. 

 

Unless game mode and time talked about as well as time spent with the profession is specifically stated for Necro, you'll receive some drastically different and conflicting perceptions of it's performance throughout the time.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Asum.4960

[LucianDK.8615]

19 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

These perspectives on class power are always so situational, esp. for Necro. 

 

If you don't "main" Necro in PvE, you probably remember recent stark increases in popularity with buffs very strongly, while glossing over it largely being trash the ~8 years before that which players had to endure. 

If you play WvW, you probably think Scourge is and always was god Tier, while as PvE endgame player, you recall being straight up asked to switch or kicked from groups for 95% of it's lifetime because it wasn't performing. 

Reaper finally got pretty good one year ago, while largely being bottom tier and unwanted for 5 years before that. 

Even in PvP, Scourge was far from a constant powerhouse with long stretches of being pretty much completely unplayable, with short bursts of being pretty much brokenly strong.

Core Necro has been a staple for PvP for a while now, being at least decent for a few years, sometimes even slightly overperforming, while being an absolute all around joke in PvE.

 

Necro, probably more than any other class, due to it's super hard to balance and poorly designed mechanics (combining almost all defense and offense of the class into one single mechanic and resource) has always been prone to extreme flip flopping with the half a year flavour of balance - and by nature of it's mechanics performs vastly differently between gamemodes. 

 

Unless game mode and time talked about as well as time spent with the profession is specifically stated for Necro, you'll receive some drastically different and conflicting perceptions of it's performance throughout the time.

 

Well said, Necromancers have desperately needed their offense decoupled from their defense to allow both to be balanced individually. Scourge did a great job with the redesign of the shroud. But where Scourge dropped the ball was super overcompensating with barrier together with strong area denial. Both got axe-downsized over the years, but still hampered by the shades doing too many things.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

as someone who started playing necro in the last 2 years, it's never broken or anything. people just don't understand its mechanics and its wheelchairmode, then cry about how absurdly bulky it is.

 

maybe at its release and the few years after, scourge was broken. in the later years? absolutely not.

 

that's why harbinger also looks a bit disappointing, while we gotta wait how it really plays out. might have similar issues like power hammer rev in Wvw, simply too slow for ideal sginificant impact against anything that moves faster than a dolly.

 

and for me personally, pvE balancings don't matter at all. who outside of some pvE elitists does care if u kill some 50 billion HP raid boss in 15 min or 20min? i don't have the patience for afking next to it either way, while my script does the dmg routine onto it ...

(wouldn't, i never done a raid sofar, i die of boredom yet at the dragonstorm meta)

[Asum.4960]

1 hour ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

and for me personally, pvE balancings don't matter at all. who outside of some pvE elitists does care if u kill some 50 billion HP raid boss in 15 min or 20min? i don't have the patience for afking next to it either way, while my script does the dmg routine onto it ...

(wouldn't, i never done a raid sofar, i die of boredom yet at the dragonstorm meta)

Standing afk next to a Raidboss for 20 minutes with a script playing for you? Comparison to an OW Meta? Yea, you didn't have to mention that you never done a Raid, because you don't have a single idea of what Raids are in this game^^

[Rukia.4802]

I'll never understand the design of gw2 Necro or WoW warlock. It's a crime that these are tankier than any plate wearing class and makes no sense. Necro can cry me a river , the sooner that noob crutch class dies the better lul no mad pls

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@Asum.4960 i know enough people who do it and watched some on streams. really low apm necessary. just to boring for me personally. if u know the mechanics, i see nothing challenging in a raid anymore, correct me if there is, but with argumentation, not plain boasting.

@Rukia.4802 nice post, or would be if u had any constructive criticism in it. your main complaint is: it's tanky. yet it can be spiked by three dps classes pretty easily, unless minstrels (which it rarely runs).

[Asum.4960]

12 minutes ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

@Asum.4960 i know enough people who do it and watched some on streams. really low apm necessary. just to boring for me personally. if u know the mechanics, i see nothing challenging in a raid anymore, correct me if there is, but with argumentation, not plain boasting.

I don't want to get into a whole off-topic discussion, but sure, once you have done that content hundreds of times, know all the mechanics, all the foreseeable points of player failures, etc., it's mostly fairly relaxed - although ofc there are plenty of opportunities for unforeseen issues requiring quick adaptation depending on your group even still. 

But as you mentioned WvW, a gamemode which I mained for years as well in my 9 years of GW2, after a hundred zerg clashes or duels etc., you are really just going through the motions too, unless for those panic moments where something unforeseeable goes wrong and you don't. 

 

I think that applies to all things.

 

Actions per minute seems like a silly measurement tbh, but while it varies drastically per build, you sure as hell do more sustained, but maybe more importantly more deliberate, apm during raiding than WvW'ing. 

Linking Raiding to automated gameplay, comparing it to press 1 at 10 FPS OW Meta's or painting a picture of it as just afk wailing on a golem for 20 minutes is just downright silly in it's dismissiveness though. 

GW2 isn't a global cooldown tab target holy trinity game, Raids in GW2 imo are actually incredibly designed content (for the most part), and easily the best work Anet has ever done (along with Fractal CM's) - from the view point of a player who's been with the franchise since Prophecies 16 years ago, having gone from hyper casual OW player to hardcore to semi-casual, from living in WvW, to from barely clearing to speedrunning Fractals and Raids to placing on the PvP leaderboards and back.

Taking this first random video on YT I found searching for one of my favourite Bosses, that's certainly more frantic, engaging and high skill then any even most organised Guild WvW Raid I've been part of in years of binging that mode daily at least (although a good commander frantically screaming basic commands sure can make it exciting). 

Not to say that it can't still be super fun as well, but your utter ignorance and dismissiveness wasn't a good look.