Legendary armor by pve exploration [Merged]

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

42 minutes ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

On Pve side, You have to do hardest content and group up with 10 people that berates you and ridicule you. I don't think people should be forced to put up with toxic people week in and out for armor. I remember this very vividly when I started raiding.

Once, you know Boss strategy, it becomes little better but there are still some players that are toxic toward others if they pull little less dps than expected.

I made more enemies playing this game(raid) than any other event combine game or real life.

toxic people are everywhere ... 

possible options and ideas to reduce toxic encounters and bad experience:

1. group with friends and raid
2. raid with your guildies
3. choose a low kp, low li group maybe 50li - 100li if you feel that u need a successful kill with good experience dont ever choose 500+ li group... most ugly minded(not everyone but afaik) ppl would be waiting in that li range to kill other's game experience and also they wont be good in raiding either .. they greed dps and blow bombs on their team mates in sabetha and drop poison in slothasor, drop big aoe on the dead center platform in matthias and 500li groups would mostly be a clown fiesta and group would disband very quickly on a single failure/wipe blame everyone and leave and FC group would disband in first boss encounter.

also my suggestion(not pointing at anyone), don't also delude yourself  by thinking you're a good person and justify your toxicity. also be responsible. if u have 2li and don't demand to join 100+ li groups and don't call them toxic if they kick you.. but be grateful if they did allow you to join them and give you a chance.

 

maybe if anet introduces some kind of lp system like in League of Legends for every encounter in raids, (keeping the current lfg intact as another way to group ppl) and automatically place ppl based on their lp and roles and put them in for an encounter, most toxicity would be reduced I guess. or not.. who knows

Edited August 16, 2021 by Crystal Paladin.3871

[Turin.6921]

Just for open world exploration? For the QoL the armor provides its a bit like a hand out (and i think we can all agree that handing out the most valuable gear in a game makes a game less healthy). The most aspiring PvE gear in game needs to require the toughest PvE content in game. Otherwise it becomes meaningless as an accomplishment. The reward needs to match the accomplishment. Endless open world grind does not seem like enough. And if it was  long enough to justify it does not sound like a fun process. But they could diversify the requirement and lighten up the raid reqs for a potential new set.  Like require a bit fewer raids tokens than 150 (at least for the first set) and add reqs for some Strikes CMs or Fractal CMs and then an open world process similar to the current Armor in HoT. That would be a good balance without making the prestige of having it meaningless. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Turin.6921

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

1 hour ago, Dante.1763 said:

Sure, ignoring all the reasons they dont want to do raids maybe. But theres reasons they dont do raids in the first place that arent just "cuz hard."

 

Raiders dont like being called toxic, but looking at this thread is hilarious.

 

...Ignoring it?  What exactly am I ignoring?  

[Dante.1763]

8 minutes ago, Turin.6921 said:

Just for open world exploration? For the QoL the armor provides its a bit like a hand out. The most aspiring PvE gear in game needs to require the toughest PvE content in game. Otherwise it becomes meaningless as an accomplishment. The reward needs to match the accomplishment. Endless open world grind does not seem like enough. And if it was that grind was long enough to justify it does not sound like a fun process. But they could diversify the requirement and lighten up the raid reqs.  Like require a few raids token and not 150 (at least for the first set) and add reqs for some Strikes CMs or Fractal CMs and then an open world process similar to the current Armor in HoT. That would be a good balance without making the prestige of having it meaningless. 

It really doesnt.

A collection at the length and cost of a gen 2 weapon collection, per armor piece(6 pieces, with the recipes to craft the other two armor weights being unlocked after) would be more than enough.

 

Note: gen 2 weapons do require fractals, but not fractal cms and i dont see why the armor would differ in that regard, ecspecially if it wasnt given a unique skin.(current ascended skin + some glow)

Edited August 16, 2021 by Dante.1763

[Turin.6921]

12 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

It really doesnt.

A collection at the length and cost of a gen 2 weapon collection, per armor piece(6 pieces, with the recipes to craft the other two armor weights being unlocked after) would be more than enough.

It is not enough. The per piece value is now close to a gen1 legendary weapon + plus raid clears and there is a reason for it. An armor piece is more valuable than a single weapon. Its literally the last piece you will ever make for that type of armor ever again. Best PvE gear without needed at least a bit of the hardest PvE content in the game is a hand out. It cheapens the game. Many people think that the Envoy armor is raid armor. But it is not true. If you actually make it Envoy Armor is All-PvE-Armor and requires both raids and a good deal of open world and gold farming. And that is what the most aspiring PvE reward should be. Encompassing both a variety of the hard instanced stuff and open world PvE. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Turin.6921

[Dante.1763]

7 minutes ago, Turin.6921 said:

It is not enough. The per piece value is now close to a gen1 legendary weapon + plus raid clears and there is a reason for it. An armor piece is more valuable than a single weapon. Best PvE hear without needed at least a bit of the hardest PvE content in the game is a hand out. It cheapens the game. Many people think that the Envoy armor is raid armor. But it is not true. If you actally make it Envoy Armor is All-PvE-Armor and requires both raids and a good deal of open world and gold farming. And that is what the most aspiring PvE reward be. Encompassing both the hard stuff and open world PvE. 

Hi i do raids, envoy armor is raid armor due to the LI requirement. If one could earn LI elsewhere it would cease to be raid armor.

Having to devote my entire playtime to raids also makes it raid armor. I cannot do open world pve and raids at the same time, which means i must chose between playing a mode i enjoy(pve), and one i dont(raids).

 

And i think what i listed would be enough, for the bare minimum, anet would mke it balanced to whatever cost they wish. Its still going to cost as much as a gen 2 weapon(minimum price), per armor piece, vastly more expensive than current Envoy armor.

 

Further: you can get wvw and pvp armor by just playing the mode. You dont have to do special content(as you do with pves current set), you get it for playing(granted playing alot, as in one would have to main those game modes for a good chunk of time.) In the mode you enioy.

 

You and i will never agree though.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Dante.1763

[Dante.1763]

18 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

 

...Ignoring it?  What exactly am I ignoring?  

The other reasons that players have given for not wanting to do raids that doesnt come down to it "being to hard."

[Turin.6921]

7 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

Further: you can get wvw and pvp armor by just playing the mode. You dont have to do special content(as you do with pves current set), you get it for playing(granted playing alot, as in one would have to main those game modes for a good chunk of time.) In the mode you enioy.

WvW and PvP are asking you to play the mode. PvE is the game mode. Raid and open world are not different modes even though they might be in the mind of some. It is one mode and you need to do most of it to get the best rewards.  What you are asking for PvE armor would be the equivalent of asking to get the armor in PvP just by playing unranked.

[Dante.1763]

2 minutes ago, Turin.6921 said:

WvW and PvP are asking you to play the mode. PvE is the game mode. Raid and open world are not different modes even though they might be in the mind of some. It is one mode and you need to do most of it to get the best rewards.  What you are asking for PvE armor would be the equivalent of asking to get the armor in PvP just by playing unranked.

As i said, we wont ever agree on this.

[Turin.6921]

36 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

As i said, we wont ever agree on this.

We will not since you cannot accept the idea of not getting a reward of a mode you do not enjoy. But you need to understand how nonconstructive this idea is of having all rewards not matter what i play and no matter the skill.

I never play WvW. The WvW back-piece is forever out of my reach. But i do not care and i should not be asking for that back-piece to find itself in a mode i play. It would trivialize the effort dedicated players in WvW did and it would remove a bit of the satisfaction for dedicated WvW play and for new people motive to play the mode. Flattening the reqs for every reward in a game makes the game less healthy and less existing to play.  

Edited August 16, 2021 by Turin.6921

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

23 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

The other reasons that players have given for not wanting to do raids that doesnt come down to it "being to hard."

And those reasons would be?  And your evidence that I am ignoring them is?  

[Dante.1763]

1 minute ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

And those reasons would be?  And your evidence that I am ignoring them is?  

Just off your comment i first qouted. Might have read it wrong of course and if i did apologies. But how it read to me was that if players who dont enjoy raids grouped up they would enjoy raids. Which..isnt true at all.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

4 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

Just off your comment i first qouted. Might have read it wrong of course and if i did apologies. But how it read to me was that if players who dont enjoy raids grouped up they would enjoy raids. Which..isnt true at all.

But it is true, which is why I said it.  

[Dante.1763]

5 minutes ago, Turin.6921 said:

We will not since you cannot accept the idea of not getting a reward of a mode you do not enjoy. But you need to understand how nonconstructive this idea is of having all rewards not matter what i play and no matter the skill.

I never play WvW. The WvW back-piece is forever out of my reach. But i do not care and i should not be asking for that back-piece to find itself in a mode i play. It would trivialize the effort dedicated players in WvW did and it would remove a bit of the satisfaction for dedicated WvW play and for new people to play the mode. Flattening the reqs for every reward in a game makes the game less healthy and less existing to play.  

Ah but see, i do raids, and i will be getting the one set of envoy armor i want. The other two weights have such awful skins(imo) and i wont be going for them, and the ring will have to wait until(or even if) anet introduces a non effect version of it.

 

Not everyone who thinks pve(non raid armor) is a good idea cant do raids.

 

And, a pve legendary armor(with no unique skin, that is available to every player), is not a bad thing, but rather the opposite in my mind. That is why we will never agree, on a fundamental level we cannot agree.

 

I believe every mode should have a full set of gear. Let players get bis gear from the content they enjoy.

 

Instanced content(raids/fractals/strikes/dungeons) Give it a full set of jewlery.(it already has a backpack from fractals, and armor from raids.)

 

Open world? Give it an armor set and a full set of jewlery.

Pvp? Same thing.

 

Wvw? Same thing.

 

leave weapons as a bridge between all content modes.

 

let the content live or die on its own merits, and yes i think raids should have gotten more development too.

[Dante.1763]

2 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

But it is true, which is why I said it.  

It isnt though. I do raids, and i dont enioy it at all, and im in a friendly fun group. They are fun. The content isnt. Even with them i dont have fun or enjoy my time spent in raids.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Dante.1763

[Noir.8561]

Why are we arguing ?

If the next expansion , will  not include HoT in the package and the existing community won't participate , then none will get the Set of buy Runs ,in the nearest future .

Whoever enjoys them , they can still play it :)

[Cyninja.2954]

19 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

It isnt though. I do raids, and i dont enioy it at all, and im in a friendly fun group. They are fun. The content isnt. Even with them i dont have fun or enjoy my time spent in raids.

 

Which is part of the reason why the developers WANT players to raid or engage in group content:

enjoy the presence of other players, potentially creating social bonds within the game.

 

The question you should be asking yourself is not if you enjoy raids per se, but rather:"would I have met this group of people I enjoy spending time with over other content?" Then extrapolate that answer to the game as a whole and consider how many players could be missing out on finding others to engage and play with, beyond running around together in the open world with near 0 interaction and ultimately what this means for player retention.

 

Most content in this game is fun because of the other players in it, especially once "farmed" for hundreds or more hours.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[yann.1946]

6 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Which is part of the reason why the developers WANT players to raid or engage in group content:

enjoy the presence of other players, potentially creating social bonds within the game.

 

The question you should be asking yourself is not if you enjoy raids per se, but rather:"would I have met this group of people I enjoy spending time with over other content?" Then extrapolate that answer to the game as a whole and consider how many players could be missing out on finding others to engage and play with, beyond running around together in the open world with near 0 interaction.

 

Most content in this game is fun because of the other players in it, especially once "farmed" for hundreds or more hours.

I agree, that is the most important thing. An mmo is only as good as its community.

 

People look at the question of whether the addition of a piece of content adds fun for then and think it's equivalent to the content being fun. But these atmre indeed not the same thing. 

 

For example, some people lost fun in the game when raids where added not because any interaction they had with raids in this game but because of the idea of their addition. 

 

And on the other side, I can guarantee that jps added lots of enjoyment to the game for me even though I don't like them

[Dante.1763]

19 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Which is part of the reason why the developers WANT players to raid or engage in group content:

enjoy the presence of other players, potentially creating social bonds within the game.

 

The question you should be asking yourself is not if you enjoy raids per se, but rather:"would I have met this group of people I enjoy spending time with over other content?" Then extrapolate that answer to the game as a whole and consider how many players could be missing out on finding others to engage and play with, beyond running around together in the open world with near 0 interaction and ultimately what this means for player retention.

 

Most content in this game is fun because of the other players in it, especially once "farmed" for hundreds or more hours.

Ah, but see, once i get my li for my one set armor, i wont be engaging with those players again, and so, the content still wont be fun, and those players and i wont interact anymore. 

 

Unlike doing fractals, the content is so not enjoyable that i wont be running it after i get what i want from it, as most people who engage with raids do.(and this is also clearly seen if you look at LI cutoffs on websites that track such things.) I still run fractals despite getting what i wanted out of it years ago.(still need backpack, but im not actively working on it.), and i dont have a dedicated group for it.

 

If anet truly wants players to engage in raids, they are going to have to make changes to raids that the more dedicated raiders wont like. They will have to make the content fun and doable for the average player.

 

Even if anet wanted to expand the popularity of raids to the top 30% of players in the game they would have to make changes, changes raiders do not want. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Dante.1763

[mtpelion.4562]

The first generation of Legendary Weapons got it right. Everything afterwards had the blight of "Account Bound" which prevents players who enjoy a certain type of content from being able to monetize their gameplay by selling the things they make to other players who don't like it.

 

If Envoy armor could be sold on the TP, then those of us who don't raid (for all of the dozens of legitimate reasons) could simply "play how we want" and eventually buy Legendary armor from other people who "play how they want". 

[The Fear.3865]

20 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Which is part of the reason why the developers WANT players to raid or engage in group content:

enjoy the presence of other players, potentially creating social bonds within the game.

 

The question you should be asking yourself is not if you enjoy raids per se, but rather:"would I have met this group of people I enjoy spending time with over other content?" Then extrapolate that answer to the game as a whole and consider how many players could be missing out on finding others to engage and play with, beyond running around together in the open world with near 0 interaction and ultimately what this means for player retention.

 

Most content in this game is fun because of the other players in it, especially once "farmed" for hundreds or more hours.

 

Thank you. 

[Cyninja.2954]

17 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

Ah, but see, once i get my li for my one set armor, i wont be engaging with those players again, and so, the content still wont be fun, and those players and i wont interact anymore. 

You can lead a horse to water...

 

If you spend as much time with others without making a connection or not wanting to stay in contact, that is every ones own prerogative.

 

Me for example, I got to know a player via fractals years ago. He introduced me years later to a group of other players, after I returned from a GW2 break, which form one of the guilds I am in right now. Over time we started running dungeons, fractals, story missions, strikes, DRMs, etc.

 

I met my current raid static (and static for now over 2.5 years), via the LFG and my former raid lead. I raid with this group ever since and have gotten to know dozens of players over the months/years. Which in turn helps when I need help with something, say when needing a replacement while helping out other raid statics.

 

No one says you have to continue playing with the players you met over challenging content just like no ones says you have to only play raids with them.

Quote

Unlike doing fractals, the content is so not enjoyable that i wont be running it after i get what i want from it, as most people who engage with raids do.(and this is also clearly seen if you look at LI cutoffs on websites that track such things.) I still run fractals despite getting what i wanted out of it years ago.(still need backpack, but im not actively working on it.), and i dont have a dedicated group for it.

Sure, fractals are an easier content organization wise to complete.

Quote

 

If anet truly wants players to engage in raids, they are going to have to make changes to raids that the more dedicated raiders wont like. They will have to make the content fun and doable for the average player.

 

Even if anet wanted to expand the popularity of raiders to the top 30% of players in the game they would have to make changes, changes raiders do not want. 

 

Anet wants players to stick with the game. The best way to do so is create opportunities for players to create different types of bonds over content in this game. It's players that break this down to only wanting specific shinies out of specific content.

 

One way of approaching this is to force cooperation between players for success. The open world content does this in some ways (group events for example), challenging instanced content does this in different ways.

Case in point: the shift to strikes and strike CMs (which we will have to wait and see how they turn out). Just another approach in trying to encourage players in this MORPG to cooperate and interact with others.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Astralporing.1957]

50 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

But it is true, which is why I said it.  

You mean, just the fact of grouping would suddenly make them enjoy the content they did not enjoy beforehand? Is there some magical mind-influencing component to grouping i haven't noticed that you are aware of, that make people do 180 degrees flips on their likes and dislikes? If so, i'd really like to hear a more in-depths explanation from you about it.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Teratus.2859]

22 hours ago, The Fear.3865 said:

Raids is endgame content avalable for every gw2 players.

Available to and catered too are very different things 🙂 

Raids as they are currently in Gw2 only appeal to a small minority of players, even Anet admits this fact.
This is the whole reason why Strike Missions exist too.. they're supposed to be a bridge to get more people playing raids but a lot would argue that they failed in this regard as well.

[Dante.1763]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You can lead a horse to water...

 

If you spend as much time with others without making a connection or not wanting to stay in contact, that is every ones own prerogative.

 

Me for example, I got to know a player via fractals years ago. He introduced me years later to a group of other players, after I returned from a GW2 break, which form one of the guilds I am in right now. Over time we started running dungeons, fractals, story missions, strikes, DRMs, etc.

 

I met my current raid static (and static for now over 2.5 years), via the LFG and my formed raid lead.

 

No one says you have to continue playing with the players you met over challenging content just like no ones says you have to only play raids with them.

Correct, and its not that i havent made connections, its that the connection ends when my involvement with raids ends. They dont spend time in open world unless forced to, so i dont get to play with them in open world. They stick usually to pvp/wvw, or go play other games when not doing raids.

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Quote

 

Sure, fractals are an easier content organization wise to complete.

Thats one reason i enjoy fractals yes. Just one though.

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Anet wants players to stick with the game. The best way to do so is create opportunities for players to create different types of bonds over content in this game. It's players that break this down to only wanting specific shinies out of specific content.

Case in point: the shift to strikes and strike CMs (which we will have to wait and see how they turn out). Just another approach in trying to encourage players in this MORPG to cooperate and interact with others.

Correct, however, anets constant pushing of players to want to do harder content hasnt worked so far. Stikes were meant to bridge the gap...which they also said about fractals..didnt work either. Instead of trying to force players to change, or enjoy content they know they wont enjoy, the content should be molded to the players.

 

Forcing players to do content they dont enjoy does harm their ability to stay in game, and for players who also dont enjoy pvp or wvw they are currently forced into raids for legendary armor, something i hope changes.

 

I will probably go on a decent break after i get my one set of envoy armor because of how damaging doing raids is to my enjoyment of the game as a whole, im not sure how Astral forced himself through 700 raids.