Vengeance rework suggestion.

[Teratus.2859]

I don't think I am alone in this but for years I have felt like the Warriors down skills, specifically the base Vengeance are horribly bad compared to some other classes.. if not outright the worst downed skills in the game.
So I'd like to suggest an idea on reworking this skill to make it a bit more reliable and useful.

The first thing I want to do away with is the 25% chance to rally.. this just gone entirely please, it's a horrible restriction to have on a down skill.
Instead I want to see Vengeance always have a 100% chance to rally on kill BUT! as a trade off the amount of health and endurance you get when you rally is dependant on the amount of enemies you kill while you are under the 15 second effect of Vengeance itself.

So this is how it will work. (writing this from a PvE only perspective and numbers are just examples)

You pop Vengeance when you are downed, you get up with either full health, half health or 25% health depending on your death penalty modifier.
For 15 seconds you have the vengeance buff and you have to kill as many enemies as possible, at least 1 enemy to rally after the buff expires.
Killing 1 enemy rallies you with only 10% of your total health and endurance, 2 enemies leaves you with 20% and so on.. the more you kill with vengeance active the more health and endurance you rally with.
If you die however while still under the effects of Vengeance you instant die, and if you fail to kill a single enemy you again die when the buff expires.
So Vengeance puts you in a literal kill or be killed situation where you must survive for 15 seconds and kill as many foes as you can in that same timeframe.

As for Vengeful Return the only real change would be to boost the amount of health and endurance you get for killing enemies while the vengeance buff is active.
Rather than getting 10% health and endurance per kill you could get 20% per kill instead.
There may be some room too for a duration increase or even decrease on the vengeance buff as well but i'll leave that up to minds far better attuned with the balance in this game than my own 🙂 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I think that base it should be a kill counter. You get that many kills then you rally. Make it 4 kills untrained, and one kill while traited. The trait should lessen the CD on vengeance so you can use it sooner, and grant a damage boost during the effect, 25%. Trait should also have an effect outside of downstate, I suggest adding in +10 ferocity per might stack.

 

This way the rng is gone, you get a damage boost to help get the kill(s), and you get an out of downstate benefit.

[alcopaul.2156]

to be true to the word itself, Vengeance should fully rally you after downing and killing your enemy who downed you. the weapon throw should be unblockable/unevade-able..

 

they can do 100% fully rallied and lessen the Vengeance duration..

 

in all game modes..

Edited August 15, 2021 by alcopaul.2156

[Smoosh.2718]

I personally dont have an issue with vengeance, I have more of an issue with Hammer toss, Id rather this was a Knee kick, short launch to target and target immediatly next to them (as in standing in their target box). Hammer toss is one of the easiest to exploit downed attack, blind it, block it, body block it(rangers love this one), LoS it or even to an extent move sideways to evade the projectile tracking.

[Teratus.2859]

Pretty much agree with all of you guys comments too lol

Plenty of different ways to make Vengeance a better down skill and I certainly agree with Hammer Toss also needing improvements Dante.

Warrior deserves a better downstate.

*Edit: Upon thinking about it though the whole rallying on killing the creature that downed you would be potentially great in competitive modes but it would be pretty bad in PvE if something very strong downed you.. specially so if that creature has mechanics that take it off the playing field for a while like Wyverns when they do their flying thing.
 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[Mungrul.9358]

Yeah, I can get behind making Vengeance 100% on any kill. Let's face it, while Warrior's Sprint exists, no-one's going to take Vengeful Return.

And even if Warrior's Sprint gets rolled in to the profession as a base improvement (which it should), Vengeful Return would still be a terrible trait to take.

 

Of course, ANet will probably read this post and see me say "...while Warrior's Sprint exists..." and see it as advice to remove Warrior's Sprint from the game entirely without buffing the profession to account for it's removal 🙄

Edited August 17, 2021 by Mungrul.9358

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Ngl sometimes I do take Vengeful Return. As much as I speak out about downstate in general (it has no place outside of PvE) I've used Vengeance to take out people and stomp them. Always feels bad when the 25% chance doesn't kick in, so VR lets me continue my roaming circuit when that happens.

[The Boz.2038]

Vengeance needs a "back to downed, with penalty", not insta-dead. Otherwise, 90% of the time, it just does nothing.

100% chance default seems.... kinda hella strong.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

100% default is too strong, but a kill counter would be better.

[Teratus.2859]

59 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

100% chance default seems.... kinda hella strong.

With my proposed change they would still have to get a kill first to do it.. and survive for the duration of the vengeance buff before they actually rally.. facing instant death if they are downed during vengeance.
They wouldn't instant rally on the kill itself like they do currently, it would happen at the end of the buff.

How much health and endurance they get when they rally too is dependant on how many things they kill while the vengeance buff is active.
These changes are aimed to balance for the 100% rally.

I don't think it would really be all that strong, specially when compared with the downstates of other classes such as Necro and Ranger which are both capable of literally tanking damage in their downstates lol