Harbinger - new trait idea

[Inexplicable.4165]

I don't post much on the official forums but I was hoping that some dev would read this topic and consider my idea. So here it goes.
 

Doom Approaches (new Grandmaster trait) isn't particularly interesting as it stands. It's basically the condi version of Cascading Corruption. It's also very passive which I think isn't particularly fun. Finally, it's extremely similar to Embrace The Darkness (revenant elite skill). I'd replace it with another trait:

Venomous Dread

Your condition damage is increased. Vital Draw becomes Noxious Doom. Whenever you inflict fear, you also inflict poison and cripple. The number of poison stacks scales with Blight.

 

0-10 stacks of Blight  - 1 stack of poison (2 sec), cripple (2 sec)

11-20 stacks - 2 stacks of poison (2 sec), cripple (2 sec)

21-25 stacks - 3 stacks of poison (2 sec), cripple (2 sec)

 

 

Noxious Doom 
 

Damage 4x 

Life force 3%

Fear 2 seconds

Number of targets 5

Radius 240
 

Why do you think this trait is more interesting? 

It works well with other necromancer traits e.g. Fear of Death and Terror. It also interacts with Blight and isn't passive like Doom Approaches. Traits that change how some skills work are some of the most interesting ones.

Why poison and cripple?  

 

I decided to go with poison because torment doesn't work well with fear. Bleed/burn are used on Reaper and scourge respectively. Poison works well with the harbinger spec I think. 
I added cripple as Harbinger shroud is mostly melee/short range so I wouldn't want mobs/players to run away too far. However, it's just an idea.

 

It's too OP / too weak

 

I tried to make it reasonable but of course it's just a general concept. The names and numbers could be easily adjusted. 

 

 

I hope you enjoyed reading this. Let me know your thoughts, any feedback is appreciated 🙂

Edited August 15, 2021 by Inexplicable.4165

[Infusion.7149]

I'm not a dev but your suggestion is weaker in practice than the proposed condi trait. Being able to apply weakness is a damage  mitigation that will not matter if you get boon ripped ; torment is exceedingly strong in PVE to the point that is roughly on par with burning now.

In addition, since weavers benefit from weakness due to Superior Elements and fear is a short duration CC condition, it has better synergy with other builds.

As a harbinger you would likely run pistol + dagger and scepter + warhorn or something akin to that. I don't think you would be running staff so you would not have any fear off weaponsets. Top DPS for condition builds would still use signet of undeath, blood is power , and probably shadow fiend as well. That means you have no room for a fear utility and Harbinger shroud does not fear people, it only dazes and floats people.

The only time your suggestion would be better is if you are running Death Magic and are trying to gain carapace stacks. That means you would not benefit from the power bonus of carapace stacks as it is a condi trait ; 15% bonus on poison damage from Putrid Defense is still nowhere near torment in typical scenarios. Poison is (0.06 * Condition Damage) + 33.5 damage per stack per second at level 80. Torment is (0.09 * Condition Damage) + 31.8 damage per stack per second at level 80 vs stationary enemies and (0.06 * Condition Damage) + 22 damage per stack per second against moving enemies in PVE.

Also you're forgetting about rune of tormenting.

For WVW it would be marginally stronger to have poison pulses but you're suggesting trading off a pulsing PBAOE for something that can be used every 20s (Vital Draw is 20s CD). I for one would never go for a fear on 20s cooldown only accessible in shroud when you have a 12s CD CC on pistol, 10s CD daze in shroud from Voracious Arc, and a 30s CD daze on warhorn.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Sigmoid.7082]

I like the fact that Harb has no fear and instead has proper hard CC.  I personally dislike fear because it is a condition. Makes it the most counterable form of hard CC because it can be cleansed. There is so much cleanse running around in competitive modes that this makes its the skill much weaker than having the float.

 

I also dislike the suggestion since I'm not a fan of conditions causing other conditions and like that Harb, again, does't have any of it unlike reaper and scourge. 

[Inexplicable.4165]

Thanks for your feedback! 

 

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I'm not a dev but your suggestion is weaker in practice than the proposed condi trait. Being able to apply weakness is a damage  mitigation that will not matter if you get boon ripped ; torment is exceedingly strong in PVE to the point that is roughly on par with burning now.

 

I'm not saying it'd necessarily be stronger. I think as it stands it could possibly weaker but numbers could be adjusted. 

 

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 That means you have no room for a fear utility and Harbinger shroud does not fear people, it only dazes and floats people.

If you have a look at my trait again, I'm actually changing shroud so that it inflicts fear instead of float. This is because it interacts with other traits such as Terror or Fear of Death. So you would definitely inflict fear 🙂

 

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The only time your suggestion would be better is if you are running Death Magic and are trying to gain carapace stacks. That means you would not benefit from the power bonus of carapace stacks as it is a condi trait ; 15% bonus on poison damage from Putrid Defense is still nowhere near torment in typical scenarios. Poison is (0.06 * Condition Damage) + 33.5 damage per stack per second at level 80. Torment is (0.09 * Condition Damage) + 31.8 damage per stack per second at level 80 vs stationary enemies and (0.06 * Condition Damage) + 22 damage per stack per second against moving enemies in PVE.

That's an interesting observation. But I like the fact that it'd work with Death Magic. Ofc you could change it a bit. Perhaps torment and weakness would be better than poison and cripple but it was just my initial idea.

 

 

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Also you're forgetting about rune of tormenting.

I'm not forgetting about them - I like that interaction but Doom Approaches just seems really boring for all the reasons I mentioned. I think it'd be very effective but also very boring.

 

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I personally dislike fear because it is a condition. Makes it the most counterable form of hard CC because it can be cleansed. There is so much cleanse running around in competitive modes that this makes its the skill much weaker than having the float.

 I think that's what makes me trait more balanced tbh. You can still have float if you're using a power build.

 

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I also dislike the suggestion since I'm not a fan of conditions causing other conditions and like that Harb, again, does't have any of it unlike reaper and scourge. 

I fully understand that, it comes down to what you like. Personally I really like interactions like that. 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Inexplicable.4165

[Infusion.7149]

17 minutes ago, Inexplicable.4165 said:

Thanks for your feedback! 

 

 

I'm not saying it'd necessarily be stronger. I think as it stands it could possibly weaker but numbers could be adjusted. 

 

If you have a look at my trait again, I'm actually changing shroud so that it inflicts fear instead of float. This is because it interacts with other traits such as Terror or Fear of Death. So you would definitely inflict fear 🙂

 

That's an interesting observation. But I like the fact that it'd work with Death Magic. Ofc you could change it a bit. Perhaps torment and weakness would be better than poison and cripple but it was just my initial idea.

 

 

I'm not forgetting about them - I like that interaction but Doom Approaches just seems really boring for all the reasons I mentioned. I think it'd be very effective but also very boring.

 

 I think that's what makes me trait more balanced tbh. You can still have float if you're using a power build.

 

I fully understand that, it comes down to what you like. Personally I really like interactions like that. 

So as I mentioned you get a fear instead of float (so trading soft CC instead of a hard CC) at most every 20s before alacrity and only when in shroud. How is that better than 3 stacks of torment every 3s in shroud?

3s float is 300 defiance bar damage. Fear is 100 per second , it's a net nerf if it is 2s of fear and also soft CC takes longer to break a defiance bar. Terror is usually very weak and mostly not taken (it's 500/s damage with 3K power and in curses line which is condi focused); Fear of Death has a huge tradeoff on it especially if you are talking about PVP where it is a mere 7% life force in exchange for losing 10% shroud damage.
 

[Inexplicable.4165]

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So as I mentioned you get a fear instead of float (so trading soft CC instead of a hard CC) at most every 20s before alacrity and only when in shroud. How is that better than 3 stacks of torment every 3s in shroud?

My focus wasn't really on making it 'better' but rather more interesting. Specifically, I wanted my trait synergise with other trait lines and interact with Blight. Ofc you could adjust the numbers to make it more potent. With Fear of Death and Terror you could inflict 4 seconds of damaging fear every 20 seconds and also up to 3 stacks of poison and cripple. I think overall it's pretty decent. I didn't want to create a trait that's obviously OP.

 

 

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Terror is usually very weak and mostly not taken (it's 500/s damage with 3K power and in curses line which is condi focused); 

I know Terror is mostly not taken even though it's actually a really fun trait. This is why I'd like to incentivise taking it. Realistically, I think this trait should be improved but that's another matter. 

[Infusion.7149]

17 minutes ago, Inexplicable.4165 said:

My focus wasn't really on making it 'better' but rather more interesting. Specifically, I wanted my trait synergise with other trait lines and interact with Blight. Ofc you could adjust the numbers to make it more potent. With Fear of Death and Terror you could inflict 4 seconds of damaging fear every 20 seconds and also up to 3 stacks of poison and cripple. I think overall it's pretty decent. I didn't want to create a trait that's obviously OP.

 

 

I know Terror is mostly not taken even though it's actually a really fun trait. This is why I'd like to incentivise taking it. Realistically, I think this trait should be improved but that's another matter. 

Don't forget you're accumulating blight which cuts your HP every second. Harbinger Shroud needs a large payoff, 3 stacks of poison with 2s duration every 20s instead of 3 stacks of torment every 3s with ~6s duration is a huge nerf. 20s cooldown is longer than most cleanses in competitive and in harbinger shroud you can be focused and have no stunbreaks or shroud healthbar. Classes with poor cleanses such as shiro renegade run cleansing sigil which removes a condition every weapons swap and every 10s on hit with sigil of purging. That's not even counting something like a trooper (soldier rune in PVP) rune core guardian , prot holo, core condi necro, or scourge.

 

Even in competitive modes torment is (0.045 * Condition Damage) + 15.9 per stack per second so the net damage pressure is drastically lowered with your suggestion. If you use your "Noxious Doom" CC skill into a full counter on spellbreaker , into a blind from d/p daredevil, or an aegis on guardians for example you do literally nothing. Fear does nothing if someone has resistance as well.

With the amount of cleanses in WVW it wouldn't even be playable at all so you're basically talking about only PVE/PVP.

If your suggestion requires reworking a few other core traits that haven't been touched since Feb 2020 balance update hit then it probably isn't worthwhile at all.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[anduriell.6280]

why not first check the spec out during the beta and then come out with new ideas? the spec may play completely different on how you imagine it would be anyway...

 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

I would like to see more interaction with blight. Right now its just passive damage effects and %damage, so you will probably always want to be at max stacks in pve, and in pvp you will likely want to keep as few stacks as possible. At the very least i think the heal skill should probably remove stacks, and maybe the utility effects could scale up depending on how many stacks you have.

 

 

[Inexplicable.4165]

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why not first check the spec out during the beta and then come out with new ideas? the spec may play completely different on how you imagine it would be anyway...

Of course I will but that doesn't mean I can't provide any feedback now. I personally think that Doom Approaches should be reworked and I don't believe playing the spec will change my mind. It's just a very boring trait that's a lot like Embrace the Darkness on rev. It's my idea and I wanted to discuss it with other people 🙂

 

•  

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Don't forget you're accumulating blight which cuts your HP every second. Harbinger Shroud needs a large payoff, 3 stacks of poison with 2s duration every 20s instead of 3 stacks of torment every 3s with ~6s duration is a huge nerf. 20s cooldown is longer than most cleanses in competitive and in harbinger shroud you can be focused and have no stunbreaks or shroud healthbar. Classes with poor cleanses such as shiro renegade run cleansing sigil which removes a condition every weapons swap and every 10s on hit with sigil of purging. That's not even counting something like a trooper (soldier rune in PVP) rune core guardian , prot holo, core condi necro, or scourge.

 

Even in competitive modes torment is (0.045 * Condition Damage) + 15.9 per stack per second so the net damage pressure is drastically lowered with your suggestion. If you use your "Noxious Doom" CC skill into a full counter on spellbreaker , into a blind from d/p daredevil, or an aegis on guardians for example you do literally nothing. Fear does nothing if someone has resistance as well.

 

Yeah but don't forget that because fear is a condition it'll be affected by things like expertise as well. There are pros and cons. A 6s fear would be pretty insane in sPvP if you couldn't cleanse it... As for other points, you could make the trait much better e.g.

 

0-10 stacks of Blight  - 2 stacks of poison (4 sec), cripple (3 sec)

11-20 stacks - 4 stacks of poison (4 sec), cripple (3 sec)

21-25 stacks - 6 stacks of poison (4 sec), cripple (3 sec)

 

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If your suggestion requires reworking a few other core traits that haven't been touched since Feb 2020 balance update hit then it probably isn't worthwhile at all.

I wouldn't say it 'requires' it but of course it would help. Acting like some traits don't exist because they're not used as much as they could be at the moment isn't a good design policy in my view. If a trait isn't used much, it should be buffed or reworked. However, I think my solution can easily work without Terror, perhaps with a few tweaks. 

[Infusion.7149]

3 minutes ago, Inexplicable.4165 said:

Of course I will but that doesn't mean I can't provide any feedback now. I personally think that Doom Approaches should be reworked and I don't believe playing the spec will change my mind. It's just a very boring trait that's a lot like Embrace the Darkness on rev. It's my idea and I wanted to discuss it with other people 🙂

 

 

•  

Yeah but don't forget that because fear is a condition it'll be affected by things like expertise as well. There are pros and cons. A 6s fear would be pretty insane in sPvP if you couldn't cleanse it... As for other points, you could make the trait much better e.g.

 

0-10 stacks of Blight  - 2 stacks of poison (4 sec), cripple (3 sec)

11-20 stacks - 4 stacks of poison (4 sec), cripple (3 sec)

21-25 stacks - 6 stacks of poison (4 sec), cripple (3 sec)

 

I wouldn't say it 'requires' it but of course it would help. Acting like some traits don't exist because they're not used as much as they could be at the moment isn't a good design policy in my view. If a trait isn't used much, it should be buffed or reworked. However, I think my solution can easily work without Terror, perhaps with a few tweaks. 

There's no viper amulet in PVP. Nightmare rune in PVP is 13% duration for fear , Necromancer rune is 10% fear duration.

Core terrormancer was running traveler runes for ~8% condition duration. The duration of fear is ~3 seconds on Doom.

[Inexplicable.4165]

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There's no viper amulet in PVP. Nightmare rune in PVP is 13% duration for fear , Necromancer rune is 10% fear duration.

Core terrormancer was running traveler runes for ~8% condition duration. The duration of fear is ~3 seconds on Doom.

True, I forgot about that actually.

You could make it 3s by default and see how it goes. There could also be two versions of this trait for PvP and PvE. But I don't think I'll be able to come up with the perfect numbers here. I'd need to test this trait or at the very least calculate how much damage it can deal in different scenarios. But as I said, it's just a general idea, it's possible that I was a bit too conservative with fear and poison.