Virtuoso pre-beta poll

[Quadox.7834]

Polling the mesmer forums about Virtuoso. These questions are about design/concepts rather than how strong you think it will be, seeing as numbers are likely to change.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Satisfied about some of the utilities and heal (SoD).

Rest is disappointing. 

Same resource different name, same f skills different name, dagger skills are boring and slow. Dagger is supposed to be a quick weapon. Plus only one dagger... 

 

Concept has I said in the other thread is a mess. 

At the current state I think it will be weaker than even core mesmer. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Genesis.5169]

I don't expect any long time mesmer players to like virtuoso honestly, Anet already knows what we like and went out of the way to not do it.

 

Perhaps this build is to get people who don't play mesmers for what ever reason whether its difficulty, or aesthetics as it is the 3rd least played class in the game thieves are seconds engineers are 1st.

[Levetty.1279]

I dislike both. Shatters are worse then core shatters in every way. Only interesting trait is bloodsong but why would you go condi on Virtuoso? Sharpening sorrow is a slap in the face since that is what Sharper Images should be if blades really were a clone replacement. The fact they couldn't see the massive flaw in Infinite Forge's design is worrying or maybe they just didn't care.

 

Satisfied with the design of dagger. Unless the speed of skill 3 falls under design instead of numbers. Don't actually think they will ever give it the damage buffs it needs and a new melee weapon would have made more sense for a DPS spec.

 

Utilities are just meh. Elite and Rain of swords are nice for some aoe damage but nothing about any of them particularly excite me. Probably because of the lack of mechanic or interesting traits to synergise with them.

[Me Games Ma.3024]

What I dislike:

 

• Bladesongs being shatters in projectile form is just uninspiring they could've done much more with these. The only one that's somewhat original is F4.
• Traits seem to be effective but unfun. The whole bleeding line is completely wasted. On Virtuoso we have 3 ways to apply bleeding, Jagged Mind, Sharper Images (which is less effective due to missing clones) and Duelist's Discipline. I especially dislike that Jagged Mind only works on Virtuoso abilities, which means it almost forces us into dagger. 
• Dagger Skills are all just plain damage abilities. There's no utility and no condition support in these. I don't really like that. However I like the way they "move" and the fact that they're 1200 units.

 

What I like:

• Heal, Utility and Elite. I like these. They also could use some condition support but I like how they're designed.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

I'm not satisfied with the design itself but as parts of this very specific design, none of the elements of the e-spec are disappointing.

[Curunen.8729]

I'm satisfied with the dagger skills aside from minor animation preferences (should ranged dagger be reverse grip?)

 

Satisfied with audio/visuals of F skills and utilities, though overall a bit one dimensional. I can appreciate core shatter traits limit the possibilities for F skill design somewhat, though perhaps there could have been some bigger changes.

 

The two aoe utilities are like mirage advance/illusionary ambush and really should be one merged ability, giving space for a new telekinetic utility.

 

The only interesting traits are the aegis and quickness - the rest are either almost duplicates of core traits (which is concerning because if core traits get hit due to modifier stacking that would be sad), or quite dull - which way do you want your blades, and do you want more crit with your crit (/s).

 

The main issue I have with the class though is the floating blade visual - these kind of things matter most to me otherwise may as well just play spreadsheets with stickmen - unfortunately I'm not fond of how they stay static while the player moves about/dodges.

 

Overall probably going to test it, almost certainly power variant with aegis and quickness (as mirage does condi well anyway), but will probably just have one equipment tenplate for it as a novelty to mess around on every now and then though probably not planning to eg solo roam with it in wvw as I reckon it's going to need some serious support to not be eaten alive by thieves etc.

[Fueki.4753]

Aside from the cast time on the Bladesongs and ground-targetting on the utility skills, I like the design Virtuoso more than Willbender and Harbinger.

But how good it's going to actually feel, will depend on the number tuning.

I hope they let us hide the Blades when we sheath our weapons though.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

From what I can get, mesmer mains are disappointed with at least one of the designs and non-mesmer mains like everything about it. (probably people that don't even have a mesmer like everything too because free kill xD )

[Lethion.8745]

Weapon skills are fine. I don't expect anything grounbreaking there. But traits and utility skills are too basic. 

[Xaylin.1860]

MH Dagger skills are fine. So is the F-mechanic (phrasing it this way because F2 is a nono to me...). Psionics are a mixed bag but I can at least see niche uses for all of them.

 

The e-spec falls short on the traits for me. Without context they overall seem fine. But the redundancy with especially Dueling is kinda aggrevating. Additionally, the traits don't seem to alter how you'd play Virtuoso. It's mostly a stat question - wether you prefer power or condi. I'm fine with Virtuoso being more straightforward. But there still could be versatility in that. 

 

A big question mark on "Blades" atm. If they interact with baseline Illusion traits I might get on board. If they don't they just become yet another gimmicky feature that isn't properly fleshed out like Mirage Mirrors and Mirage Cloak for the sake of a theme.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Xaylin.1860

[Zoser.7245]

2 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

From what I can get, mesmer mains are disappointed with at least one of the designs and non-mesmer mains like everything about it. (probably people that don't even have a mesmer like everything too because free kill xD )

Yes, i was thinking the same, lol.  And between the mesmers, i can also watch a clear division between those that only play PVE and those that play in competitive modes, PvP and WvW, or all modes.

 

It is a bad joke to see the non-mesmers come to vote that everything is wonderful to try to prevent the Virtuoso from being revised and improved. Above all when it's clear that the Virtuoso has several flaws in design and lacks key utilities to become useful for team play and also for be competive. But very typical in gw2 forum. Soon wee will watch topics asking for nerfs... the Willbender already has at least two, 😆,  and it would not be a surprise some against the Virtuoso too. 😅 Buy some popcorn that the movie starts tomorrow. 🤣

Edited August 16, 2021 by Zoser.7245

[Curunen.8729]

5 minutes ago, Zoser.7245 said:

Yes, i was thinking the same lol.  And between the mesmers i can also watch a clear division between those that only play PVE and those that play in competitive modes, PvP and WvW, or all modes.

I think that any spec ideally ought to offer solutions for players in all modes, whether a pathway for sustained dps/support/etc in instanced pve (raids/fractals/strikes..), roles in conquest, self sufficiency in 1v1/1vX (pvp or wvw equipment), scalability in 2+v2+ (interplay with allies/enemies from small-scale to large-scale), with the only part of the game having least priority on balance being open world pve for obvious reasons. Sure specs would have different strengths/weaknesses but in a broad sense the player should be able to take any spec, fit it in any part of the game and be able to have some success.

 

On this note I should qualify my current position for any kind of class balance primarily viewing from 1+v1+ small/medium scale in wvw (even though currently spending any game time on the mind numbing marathon of living world achievements to finish aurora/vision/LWamulet before EoD, while waiting for alliances because two guys I used to roam with are on another server...), having given up on spvp some time ago - though think it's fair to say I've got enough experience there over the years that even if not understanding the current meta, given how the nature of the game has barely changed reckon can still weigh in on spec design in a general sense.

 

Tbh the most fun pvp time was the specialisation patch pre HoT. Only reason I'd come back is if they made eg a ~20v20 multiple objective "wvw-lite" mode with a reasonable sized map that encouraged small skirmishes here and there and incentivised splitting up into multiple sub groups. And they made a hotjoin version for messing around no strings attached.

 

And I feel it important to comment on aesthetic preferences because a significant draw of the game are the visuals and audio - more fun than going to an art gallery for example. Sometimes it's nice just to log on in the home instance for 10 mins and mess around with some skills - kind of therapeutic after a long day.

[SkyCake.4216]

I think that mechanically, it'll be one of the most basic and simple e-specs in the game. As Mesmer being in my top three, I'm surprised that so many people wanted to take what I thought was one of the more interesting classes in an MMO and reduce it down to a basic caster. 

 

It'll be kind of funny though if Cantha adds more reflect mobs/mechanics in a similar way that PoF made more use of boons on basic enemies in an attempt to make them more interesting or different than previous expansion mobs. 

 

Edit: I want to pre-emptively concede that I could change my opinion after the beta or as we near closer to launch. Would genuinely enjoy if my initial feeling was wrong. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by SkyCakeLight.3750

[mortrialus.3062]

Traits are really basic.  Even the good ones like Quickness on Evade and Bladesongs granting Aegis aren't like these really interesting things that lets you theory craft combos with the rest of the profession or really change how you play entirely

[Axl.8924]

There are a few things that kinda bother me.

1: Aren't usually F buttons reserved for utility to survive? in this one 4 is a good block yeah i like But 1 has a cd that seems kinda longish.

 

I do see what mortriatus says about basic, but i like the throwing daggers animation showing how much ammo you have.

[Dekron.9458]

utility and traits seems ok for me.

the F  i think that must have some more diffrence with the base normal F. 

for example bladesong sorrow should do bleed instead of confusion.

 

for weapont skill they are ok, i think i will add 1 stack of bleed on the flurry of blade end combo.

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

Dagger skills are alright, design wise. In terms of strength I do wish they did more than just flat damage, and I do think they have very little blade creation built into them, especially considering Virtuoso needs to stock 5 blades instead of the usual 3 clones, and having a melee weapon would've been nice since by far most weapons we have are ranged. Also not getting an off-hand dagger to go with is a slap in the face but we're used to it by now.

 

Some of the traits are nice, I really like the inclusion of aegis since outside traits virtuoso has next to zero survivability, and the inclusion of condition as an option is a cool idea by design, although done very poorly in execution since the baseline skills for virtuoso apply zero condis, and the traits absolutely do not make up for that. The grandmaster traits being focused on blade generation is a relief, it was a big concern of mine that virtuoso would struggle to produce blades since there isn't much in the way of that on its baseline kit; although infinite forge is quite flawed, the other two traits are nice, psychic riposte needs to have the internal cooldown removed though.

That being said, the other traits range from bad to useless, and the fact some of them are literally copy-pasted from other mesmer traitlines is downright insulting, I just took it as an announcement that Anet officially does not care about mesmer anymore. Among the non-copied traits, Mental Focus is my biggest gripe. Seriously? Everything about the e-spec is ranged, it has zero mobility and very little survivability, even the shatters have their range as one of the few upgrades over core shatters, and you put this as a trait? Traits are supposed to either enhance or complement the playstyle of the class, not directly conflict with it.

 

The utility skills are meh. They look fine, they perform fine, and straightforward aoe damage is something mesmer was missing, but they are just so bland and uninspired, they bring nothing interesting to the table. I wouldn't say I'm properly dissapointed or angry about them, but I do kinda wished for more, if anything to compensate for the lackluster state of the rest of the espec.

 

Finally, the Bladesong skills, are the biggest dissapointment in the whole thing. They are functionally exactly the same as core mesmer shatters. Absolutely not a single thought was put into creating them. The only unique part about it is that we don't have clones anymore, which means the "class mechanic change" that virtuoso is getting is that it had a mechanic removed, and nothing added in return. I don't even know why they're called "bladesongs" when nothing about them involves songs at all, it was probably named this way cuz bards and minstrels have been frequent suggestions for a mesmer e-spec, so they just named it this way and thought "good enough, ship it". Both Harbinger and Willbender that were announced together with Virtuoso got much more interesting class mechanic changes, while we're just sitting here with straight downgrades.

 

[Hot Boy.7138]

I've been playing mesmer for 9 years. This is the first time I've ever felt like there's too much pink. In the virtuoso demo, it was just way too pink and bloomy. The effects weren't attractive at all to me. It didn't look detailed at all. It was ugly to me. Maybe if they update the effects i'll be more into it. But as of right now, aesthetically, virtuoso doesn't look good to me.

[mortrialus.3062]

Overall my feeling after seeing the whole thing is this reeks of CMC not wanting Mesmer to be good at PvP and thus making a spec that is deliberately worse than Core Mesmer with very little gained, especially after how ambitious the Harbinger and Willbreaker are in comparison.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Can't understand why some mesmers like the new F skills. What's there to like? They're the same except with cast time.

 

This elite spec is just ANerf caving in to people that qq about mesmer through the years and made it to please them and not mesmer players.

People complained about clones because couldn't find the real mesmer, ANerf made a cloneless spec that is exactly the same mechanic wise.

People complained forever about shatters being instant, so they now have a cast time.

 

Good luck landing F1 3/4 cast time...oh you landed it, no biggie it's just 6k damage.

Meanwhile I press 2 skills and deal 20k damage.

[Exciton.8942]

I like most of the traits. I think it should be just number tweaking for them.

F1-3 are fine but I really dislike F4. I just don't see how F4 is useful. It does a little bit of damage but the drawback is too large compared to distortion.

Dagger skills are all damage focused, which is probably fine since it is 1200 range.

 

I think I will probably run a PU power build given how little defense options the spec has.

[Xaylin.1860]

11 hours ago, Curunen.8729 said:

I think that any spec ideally ought to offer solutions for players in all modes, whether a pathway for sustained dps/support/etc in instanced pve (raids/fractals/strikes..), roles in conquest, self sufficiency in 1v1/1vX (pvp or wvw equipment), scalability in 2+v2+ (interplay with allies/enemies from small-scale to large-scale), with the only part of the game having least priority on balance being open world pve for obvious reasons. Sure specs would have different strengths/weaknesses but in a broad sense the player should be able to take any spec, fit it in any part of the game and be able to have some success.

I got a somewhat different opinion on this topic. Yes, specs should offer a variety of builds. However, some mechanics and designs simply favor one game mode over the other. With the 3rd e-spec on the horizon I feel way more comfortable with specs clearly leaning into one direction even if they don't hit the sweet spot for me personally. Because I got alternatives. Serving too many expectations at once usually either ends in something being overpowered or in concepts being watered down.

 

A very easy example: Mobility is mostly irrelevant in PvE. A spec captitalizing on movement through their class mechanic, like Willbender, will innately be less appealing in those scenarios (unless it's just an add on to base). No reasonable way around that unless you inflate numbers somewhere.

 

Back to Mesmer: While I multiclass a lot, Mesmer remains my main. And it has been very discouraging how the class developed from an interruptiv trickster with unique support abilities into this dumpster fire. Both, Chronomancer and Mirage were conceptually appealing but don't really come with a new class mechanic (or a new mechanic that isn't properly integrated). Virtuoso on the other hand is a huge mess conceptually and I'm afraid it will end up even worse than the other to specs. I do greatly appretiate that we finally get new Shatters and the cloneless playstyle keeps me interested. But that's about it. Why does it have to compete with pChrono (here I'd say rework Chrono)? And why does it have to compete with cMirage while being a copy of Duelling (here I'd say work on base Mesmer and don't push Virtuoso into a condi or hybrid role). In the end, it doesn't really provide a new playstyle as far as we can see. It's mostly quality of life.

 

Still looking forward to the beta today 🥳🥳🥳

[Bobajob.7136]

Hey, I love mostly everything about the spec. I just find the dagger spells and auto attacks a bit lackluster. Cosmetically a bit boring, imagine duel wield dagger with the auto attack? Left, right and both hands. Would look awesome!!

I don't want to say to much untill I play it later but I just find the dagger attacks a bit slow.

[Bobajob.7136]

17 hours ago, Curunen.8729 said:

I'm satisfied with the dagger skills aside from minor animation preferences (should ranged dagger be reverse grip?)

 

Satisfied with audio/visuals of F skills and utilities, though overall a bit one dimensional. I can appreciate core shatter traits limit the possibilities for F skill design somewhat, though perhaps there could have been some bigger changes.

 

The two aoe utilities are like mirage advance/illusionary ambush and really should be one merged ability, giving space for a new telekinetic utility.

 

The only interesting traits are the aegis and quickness - the rest are either almost duplicates of core traits (which is concerning because if core traits get hit due to modifier stacking that would be sad), or quite dull - which way do you want your blades, and do you want more crit with your crit (/s).

 

The main issue I have with the class though is the floating blade visual - these kind of things matter most to me otherwise may as well just play spreadsheets with stickmen - unfortunately I'm not fond of how they stay static while the player moves about/dodges.

 

Overall probably going to test it, almost certainly power variant with aegis and quickness (as mirage does condi well anyway), but will probably just have one equipment tenplate for it as a novelty to mess around on every now and then though probably not planning to eg solo roam with it in wvw as I reckon it's going to need some serious support to not be eaten alive by thieves etc.

I agree apart from I like the reverse grip. Makes me feel like a ninja, it's just a bit slowwwwww