Please don't homogenize your mechanics like that!

[WeWantWaffles.2873]

Skill types like elixir, well, physical, gadget, mantra, do not always obey their own rules

What made Guild Wars 1 so easy to understand is that ultimately, every skill type obeyed a description of some kind. Wells could only be made from corpses, shouts were always instant, enchantments/boons could be ripped / converted. These same mechanics exist in Guild Wars 2, but as time goes on and balance updates occur, skill types are losing their identity.

 

Skill types are losing their identity

There are wells that do not act like wells. Scrapper wells are really just auras, not static danger areas.
Also, some shouts do not act like shouts. Reaper shouts have a cast time, but shouts should always be instant cast.
Torment is like bleed, except you can move to help mitigate the damage.

Confusion will become bleed, except it deals damage on skill activation.

 

Which means classes lose their identity

It may seem like nitpicking, but every time these changes happen, the core game mechanics become more bland. Everything starts to become more like everything else and it harms the identity of a class. What defines a well, a mantra, a stance, etc, also defines a class. By breaking the rules of skill types and making conditions more like "it's basically like bleed, but...", classes become less specialized.

 

So basically the recent suggestion to the confusion condition makes me think:

If bosses are killing themselves on confusion, just make them resist confusion damage more. Alternatively, make confusion do something else but avoid making it yet another bleed. Please please! ❤️ This game must be a nightmare to balance, but let's not do it by making mechanics too samey.

 

I love GW2. It's the best MMO in my opinion. I love it so much that I am not afraid to criticize it. Thank you!

Edited August 16, 2021 by WeWantWaffles.2873

[zealex.9410]

I actually dig that torment is the oposite of bleed and i think thematically that it dealing its dmg while you are standing still is neat.

That being said mechanics should be consistent within their category as you said. Regardless of the previous problems of mantras i really disliked the removal of charging mantras as i thought it not only removed counterplay but also removed flavour.

Edited August 16, 2021 by zealex.9410

[Rogue.8235]

5 hours ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

Skill types like elixir, well, physical, gadget, mantra, do not always obey their own rules

What made Guild Wars 1 so easy to understand is that ultimately, every skill type obeyed a description of some kind. Wells could only be made from corpses, shouts were always instant, enchantments/boons could be ripped / converted. These same mechanics exist in Guild Wars 2, but as time goes on and balance updates occur, skill types are losing their identity.

 

So you're arguing for homogenization of skill types despite the title you wrote for the thread? 

Regardless, skill types seem to be keeping their identity.  Wells are persistent AOEs that provide beneficial effects for allies and detrimental effects for enemies.  Signets have a passive component and active component.  Glyphs have slightly different effects based on the state of the profession mechanic.   Physical skills involve CC.  Yeah.... not seeing identity shifts anywhere.

 

5 hours ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

Skill types are losing their identity

There are wells that do not act like wells. Scrapper wells are really just auras, not static danger areas.
Also, some shouts do not act like shouts. Reaper shouts have a cast time, but shouts should always be instant cast.
Torment is like bleed, except you can move to help mitigate the damage.

Confusion will become bleed, except it deals damage on skill activation.

 

Engineer wells are static relative to the engineer.  That's some flavor right there to have general relativity involved with a skill type.  Also, all wells provide beneficial effects and detrimental effects.

 

You just described Torment's identity.... it's damage over time that is mitigated by not moving....

Confusion deals damage on skill activation, and now does minimal damage over time as well.

You're arguing that different types of conditions  need to be different by pointing out how they're different.

 

5 hours ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

Which means classes lose their identity

It may seem like nitpicking, but every time these changes happen, the core game mechanics become more bland. Everything starts to become more like everything else and it harms the identity of a class. What defines a well, a mantra, a stance, etc, also defines a class. By breaking the rules of skill types and making conditions more like "it's basically like bleed, but...", classes become less specialized.

 

You seem to be narrowing the identity of a class to it's skill types, not as a whole.  I re-watched the teaser videos for the professions from before the game launched.  I also looked at the profession pages of the main GW2 website.  The profession identities are all still there.

Necromancer is still based on inflicting suffering in every imaginable way, from directly with their own spells, to using their victim's beneficial effects against them, to throwing detrimental effects back at their targets.

Warrior is still about charging into the middle of the fray and staying there, using brute force to prevail.

Thief is still about in and out bursts of damage and battlefield mobility.

 

The list goes on.  The identities of the professions are not limited to skills alone.

 

 

5 hours ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

So basically the recent suggestion to the confusion condition makes me think:

If bosses are killing themselves on confusion, just make them resist confusion damage more. Alternatively, make confusion do something else but avoid making it yet another bleed. Please please! ❤️ 

 

You're still arguing that confusion is not different by describing how it is different.

When affected by confusion, you still mitigate its damage by not using skills.  

Bleeding has nothing to do with skill activation.

 

If you're attempting to argue that both deal damage over time, then this is a massive stretch of the framing of your argument.  

Damage over time effects will deal damage over time.  You might as well argue that attacks that deal damage with one hit are all the same because they deal damage with a single hit.  I'm not sure if this is the over-simplification you're arguing.  However, I cannot see what you're arguing for as the whole post is self-contradictory.

Also, enemies killing themselves due to confusion is the point of confusion.  Confusion places the target in a bad-worse dilemma.  Do nothing and take the ongoing pressure from the guy who put confusion on you, or do something and take the damage.  Bleeding doesn't do this.

 

5 hours ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

This game must be a nightmare to balance, but let's not do it by making mechanics too samey.

 

I love GW2. It's the best MMO in my opinion. I love it so much that I am not afraid to criticize it. Thank you!

 

Again, there's contradictions here.  The skill types are flavored for their profession but you want them to be the same while arguing for things not to be the same.

 

I'm just trying to figure out what you're actually saying here as it may be a good point.  I just can't tell with you're currently-worded  rationalization.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Rogue.8235

[WeWantWaffles.2873]

4 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

So you're arguing for homogenization of skill types despite the title you wrote for the thread? 

No, I'm arguing for consistency in skill types. Do not twist my words. Limitations create class identity.

 

4 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

Regardless, skill types seem to be keeping their identity.

Clearly this is untrue.

 

4 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

Engineer wells are static relative to the engineer. 

It's called an aura. Wells are static.

 

4 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

You're arguing that different types of conditions  need to be different by pointing out how they're different.

Again, no. Jeez. You go out of your way to misinterpret me. Changing confusion to be "like bleed, but..." is homogenization. It was perfectly unique, now it's one of many damage over time effects with no counterplay.

 

4 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

You seem to be narrowing the identity of a class to it's skill types, not as a whole. 

Not at all. One example: mesmer punishes actions with confusion, now that's slowly fading away because confusion which (let's face it) is only really used by mesmers is having its identity removed. I play mostly open world pve, this is a buff for my favorite class overall. But I don't like it.

 

4 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

The identities of the professions are not limited to skills alone.

But skills, skill types, boons and conditions are a huge factor in determining identity.

 

4 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

Also, enemies killing themselves due to confusion is the point of confusion. 

Thanks for describing why confusion should not be turned into a bleed clone.

 

4 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

You're still arguing that confusion is not different by describing how it is different.

When affected by confusion, you still mitigate its damage by not using skills.  

Bleeding has nothing to do with skill activation.

It's a good thing I never claimed that confusion was identical to bleeding. Whew.

 

4 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

I'm just trying to figure out what you're actually saying here as it may be a good point.  I just can't tell with you're currently-worded  rationalization.

The first step for you, would be to avoid arguing in bad faith. You assumed so many wrong things just to win an argument. Very weird behavior that disrupts honest discourse. Would appreciate it if you read my points. Thanks.

 

5 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

I actually dig that torment is the oposite of bleed and i think thematically that it dealing its dmg while you are standing still is neat.

That being said mechanics should be consistent within their category as you said. Regardless of the previous problems of mantras i really disliked the removal of charging mantras as i thought it not only removed counterplay but also removed flavour.

I'm glad you understood what I was going for with this post 🙂

[Rogue.8235]

1 hour ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

No, I'm arguing for consistency in skill types. Do not twist my words. Limitations create class identity.

But they do seem to be consistent.  Wells are persistent AOEs that periodically pulse an effect and are combo fields.  Auras are not AOE, affect only yourself , and only trigger if you get hit by an enemy.  Auras do not function like wells at all.  Engineer wells are:

1. AOE
2. Persistent (they last over a period of time)
3. Pulse an effect at set intervals
4. are combo fields (allowing for follow-up with combo finishers)

 

yep, seems like a well to me.  You state they're not because they move and are auras.  Contrarily, auras are not combo fields, do not pulse an effect at set intervals, and are not AOEs.  

Also want to add, from the Engineer's perspective, the wells are static.  In other words, the wells are static from the engineer's frame of reference.  

 

1 hour ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

Clearly this is untrue.

 

This is an assertion of a conclusion that has no empirical support, nor does it have a valid set of premises.  

To address your mention of shouts.  Seems to me all shouts have the character shouting an actual piece of dialogue, provides an effect in an AOE, and has varied casting times depending on balance needs.  https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shout  10 shouts have a cast time and 13 shouts have no cast time.    Granted, it appears every shout in GW1 is instant cast; however, that game also has an extremely different combat system.  Everyone had mana bars and autoattack wasn't an actual skill.    To assert a comparison GW2 shout skills and GW1 shout skills is a false equivalency.  They are not the same.

 

1 hour ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

Again, no. Jeez. You go out of your way to misinterpret me. Changing confusion to be "like bleed, but..." is homogenization. It was perfectly unique, now it's one of many damage over time effects with no counterplay.

 

It deals damage over time AND it deals damage on skill use unlike any other effect in the entirety of the game.  Seems like it's different... unless you're saying everything is the same because they deal damage on hit.  Damage over time effects are going to deal damage over time....

 

1 hour ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

Not at all. One example: mesmer punishes actions with confusion, now that's slowly fading away because confusion which (let's face it) is only really used by mesmers is having its identity removed. I play mostly open world pve, this is a buff for my favorite class overall. But I don't like it.

 

Umm, you just narrowed the identity of mesmer to a single condition (confusion).  Yeah, if you do that then everything loses its identity everywhere.  Warriors identity is that they can knock things down, but they lost their identity because other professions can knock things down.  Confusion has been in the game for other professions since the betas.  

 

Mesmer is about misdirection and attacking sideways rather than head on.  They have the combat mobility to attack from different angles, switch up their positions with clones, and can stealth themselves to leave the enemy trying to look for them through all the illusions.  That hasn't changed.  The entire mesmer profession is not a single condition.

 

1 hour ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

But skills, skill types, boons and conditions are a huge factor in determining identity.

 

Interesting.  You are presenting a paradox.  You don't want classes to lose their identity yet you want skills to behave exactly the same across professions.  The two cannot co-exist.  This is per your assertation that skills need to be more consistent with each other, implying that they are not alike enough.

 

Engineer wells:  They are consistent with wells in that they are AOE, persistent, pulse effects, and are combo fields.  The engineer has a different style in using wells.  

 

I also see the professions' use of skills are stylistically different from each other.  I really do not see the degradation of class identity you are claiming.

 

1 hour ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

Thanks for describing why confusion should not be turned into a bleed clone.

 

And it isn't.  

 

1 hour ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

It's a good thing I never claimed that confusion was identical to bleeding. Whew.

 

If you really aren't implying it then you really need to read what you type before publishing.  Please see the following:

11 hours ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

Skill types are losing their identity []  Confusion will become bleed, except it deals damage on skill activation.

[]

... Alternatively, make confusion do something else but avoid making it yet another bleed. Please please... .

1 hour ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

...Changing confusion to be "like bleed, but..." is homogenization. It was perfectly unique, now it's one of many damage over time effects with no counterplay.

1 hour ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

Thanks for describing why confusion should not be turned into a bleed clone.

 

What am I supposed to be inferring from these statements?  Confusion is not bleeding.  Did I miss something where ArenaNet stated that Confusion will deal damage over time with no other effect?

If that is the case, you really need to cite your sources.

 

1 hour ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

The first step for you, would be to avoid arguing in bad faith. You assumed so many wrong things just to win an argument. Very weird behavior that disrupts honest discourse. Would appreciate it if you read my points. Thanks.

 

I never have, nor will I ever, argue in bad faith.  Nor will I ever perjure myself as that is closely related.  Bad faith arguments Intentionally toe the line without crossing

I simply pointed out that you're statements contradict themselves.  That isn't bad faith, that is what you wrote.  We can't read your mind, so we can only go based on the actual words you typed and posted.   

I did identify, at the end, that I'm trying to understand your thesis.   On its face, you want classes to be different but you want skill types to be the same.  Your statement that skill types, skills, boons, and conditions make up a large portion of a profession's identity.  

How can calsses be distinct if they use skill types that are not distinct (per your argument that skill types should be the same).

 

I went deeper than the face value of what you wrote.  I identified that you're arguing for consistency, and pointed out how there is consistency.  It does bring up the question of the earlier contradiction.  If you see consistently themed skills within a skill type category as indistinctive and/or inconsistent, and argue for more similarities, to what extent will skill types be the same?  How does this play into you're assertion that professions are becoming too similar?  If skill types are used among multiple professions, how would the skills being very similar (more so than current) affect profession identity?

 

Your statements seem self-contradictory.

 

7 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

That being said mechanics should be consistent within their category as you said. Regardless of the previous problems of mantras i really disliked the removal of charging mantras as i thought it not only removed counterplay but also removed flavour.

 

1 hour ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

'm glad you understood what I was going for with this post 🙂

 

 

That's not a consistency issue, though.  That's just a change to a skill type that was, notably, applied to all skills of that type consistently.

The flavor of the skill type did change.   That's not a consistency issue.  It's a worthy argument on its own.  

 

If your point is that classes are losing their flavor due to changes, then why are you bringing up consistency and homogenization at all?  The comment you identified as being on the same page as you doesn't address what you actually wrote.  I addressed what you wrote and merely pointed out that it doesn't seem like there is much homogenization going on.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Rogue.8235
spelling *sigh*

[WeWantWaffles.2873]

So yeah anyway, don't touch confusion guys. I know we can make a way better game without pulling everything towards a center point.

[Dante.1763]

8 minutes ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

So yeah anyway, don't touch confusion guys. I know we can make a way better game without pulling everything towards a center point.

Didnt want to counter their points at all? Hmmm

[Katary.7096]

13 minutes ago, WeWantWaffles.2873 said:

So yeah anyway, don't touch confusion guys. I know we can make a way better game without pulling everything towards a center point.

The update which will change the functionality of the confusion condition is going to go live in a few hours. You think they will reverse their decision on it now?

[Dante.1763]

2 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

The update which will change the functionality of the confusion condition is going to go live in a few hours. You think they will reverse their decision on it now?

Because of one persons feedback too xD

[Guirssane.7082]

Sorry but guild wars 1 wasn't easy to understand at all and the number of skills didn't help. Just a small note :D. 

[Nightgunner.2896]

9 hours ago, Guirssane.7082 said:

Sorry but guild wars 1 wasn't easy to understand at all and the number of skills didn't help. Just a small note :D. 

Skills did the same things as each other in GW1 because due to the campaign release structure they ended up with two or three identical copies of each skill with a different name or icon.