Why is there little, to no variety with Engineers?

[Ragebru.1397]

I'm kind of fed up with engineer. Why does this class feel more like a chemist, than an engineer? Elixers are pretty much in every build. Gadgets, turrets, and most of the weapon kits have like 1 useful skill... Of course, not the chemist's gun. Sorry, elixer gun.

[Stalima.5490]

You could always use a Bomb kit scrapper with gyros and pretend you are a budget scourge.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

For PVP?  Well, our utilities are in high competition with each other, due to kits being a big part of our builds.  They need to fulfill certain niche functions necessary for PVP, which is why you'll see a lot of the same.

 

It's not all bad.  In WvW I've run Drunk Scrapper, Gyro Quickness Scrapper, and a mostly pure damage Holo with exceeds.  They did fine.  It's not always going to be kit + 2 elixirs.  

[Ragebru.1397]

37 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

For PVP?  Well, our utilities are in high competition with each other, due to kits being a big part of our builds.  They need to fulfill certain niche functions necessary for PVP, which is why you'll see a lot of the same.

 

It's not all bad.  In WvW I've run Drunk Scrapper, Gyro Quickness Scrapper, and a mostly pure damage Holo with exceeds.  They did fine.  It's not always going to be kit + 2 elixirs.  

More often then not, the kits are just used for the toolbelt. Scrapper gets away with not having to rely on elixer, but that's because elixers do almost the same thing boon wise. 

I've been trying to make a rifle build that relies on quickness and Aim-assisted rocket, and while the concept is pretty awesome- it's execution is terrible. Takes way too long to get the orbital strike, making it unreliable in PvP and PvE. 

I specifically brought up the Aim-assisted rocket, because there are a lot of talents and utilities that are exactly as you stated.. "niche".. they don't stand out or exceed in anything because they are either way too long to proc, or have too many conditions to be met. 

[Dawdler.8521]

There is lots of variety. Its called playing other classes >_<

 

Most only have a limited number of usefull skills anyway.

[The Fear.3865]

Dont worry, soon, you gonna equip the HARBINGER rune to boost your ELIXIR build 🙈

[bethekey.8314]

It's true that a number of our skills are genuinely in need of updates and this reduces variety.

 

Another reason is that most people are meta-slaves or simply not creative. I've played engineer since launch in probably the most restrictive game mode (sPVP) and have found success with many unique builds. Here's a recent video I made on this exact topic:

 

 

Optimal builds only really matter for people playing optimally. These E-sports level people are rare in Guild Wars 2 because Guild Wars 2 isn't an E-sport. That opens up a lot of build variety.

Edited August 17, 2021 by bethekey.8314

[Ragebru.1397]

9 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

There is lots of variety. Its called playing other classes >_<

 

Most only have a limited number of usefull skills anyway.

I find that when I play thief, I use nearly all the utilities for different situations. I use most of them among my 4 pvp builds with the exclusion on like 4 or 5 utilities. Same with my ele, I've mained ele for the majority of my PvE, and was able to climb to g1 just using tempest support. I've even got an elemental summon spam build that really does well. The point being that most classes utilize a large percentage of their utility options.. Engi, does not. 

 

[Laughing Bat.1570]

Kinda sad to see so many feeling this way. Engineer has felt like it has the most variety of all the classes for me. Granted I mostly ignore meta. I mainly play a scrapper build that I focused around exploiting combo fields and a holosmith build that is really just about smashing things in photon forge. Whenever I get bored of one build or another I just play around with stuff until I find something new that works.

 

That being said, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a major overhaul of gadgets and turrets.

[Barquiel.5610]

This is the build I run and I have a blast using it.

I know its not meta or super optimized but I don't really care about that.

I mostly play sPvP and it gets the job done at least for me.

Anyway feel free to try it if you like.

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PegAoqlZw+YhsLWJWcPvrbA-zZRsM6tAiPB8ZA

[Nero.7369]

I think theres a good mix atm and every utility skill has its place and can be used. (Well okay I dont use Turrets except the rifle /heal turret sometimes), but yea often serveral elexiers are taken in competitive. But i guess thats because they have most value to cd specially for stunbreaks, and is the only stability source when not running scrapper or juggernaut.

 

Here are a few other builds you might take a look at that dont run elexiers or only 1:
- Condi Interupt Scrapper using a lot of gadget skills

- Static Discharge (kinda nerved to death now tho but i still run it sometimes), used only the elexier gun, else a mix

- Heal Scrapper, using only elexier gun

In PvE elexiers are rarely taken tho
 

-

[Amadeus.5687]

49 minutes ago, NeroBoron.7285 said:

I think theres a good mix atm and every utility skill has its place and can be used. (Well okay I dont use Turrets except the rifle /heal turret sometimes), but yea often serveral elexiers are taken in competitive. But i guess thats because they have most value to cd specially for stunbreaks, and is the only stability source when not running scrapper or juggernaut.

 

Here are a few other builds you might take a look at that dont run elexiers or only 1:
- Condi Interupt Scrapper using a lot of gadget skills

- Static Discharge (kinda nerved to death now tho but i still run it sometimes), used only the elexier gun, else a mix

- Heal Scrapper, using only elexier gun

In PvE elexiers are rarely taken tho
 

-

While I really love your Condi Interrupt Scrapper build, it's more an example of some of the utility balance issues we have currently, then it's nice build variety; You have 0 Stunbreaks (beside reactive lense trait which you can't control when to use)  and 0 condi removal, because none of the fun utility skills you use comes with it. (Beside A.E.D, which is a complicated skill in of itself).
It's pure High Risk for decent rewards and while it looks hella fun and I'm loving it, I would say it more showcases all we miss out of when not running Alchemy and elixirs.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Amadeus.5687

[Nero.7369]

Well I loved the old static discharge with healing turret, rifle turret and photon wall. It was also kinda round and still had room for one stability/stunbreak slot. But yea u have o give up sth for a gain.

Dont get me wrong, im absolutely in that other skill types need some love. Turrets should be reworked, and gadgets buffed. For example the utility goggles are nice on 30sec cd for a stunbreak and traited those are only 24sec and give resistance, protection that isnt bad add resolution to it and it would great. The issue is the other gadgets are to situational and not allround skills to pick the trait line and cd reduction also their toolbelt skills are usually not really great and arent gadget skill types. If some kit skills like the toolkit would also benefit from having skills from the gadget skill type, like there are elexiers on kits it would look way better.

 

I just wanted to point out that there is variety. Those are usually not the allrounder builds, but pushing in a more concrete direction.

 

 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

What will be the runes of Harbinger ?

[Amadeus.5687]

2 hours ago, NeroBoron.7285 said:

Well I loved the old static discharge with healing turret, rifle turret and photon wall. It was also kinda round and still had room for one stability/stunbreak slot. But yea u have o give up sth for a gain.

Dont get me wrong, im absolutely in that other skill types need some love. Turrets should be reworked, and gadgets buffed. For example the utility goggles are nice on 30sec cd for a stunbreak and traited those are only 24sec and give resistance, protection that isnt bad add resolution to it and it would great. The issue is the other gadgets are to situational and not allround skills to pick the trait line and cd reduction also their toolbelt skills are usually not really great and arent gadget skill types. If some kit skills like the toolkit would also benefit from having skills from the gadget skill type, like there are elexiers on kits it would look way better.

 

I just wanted to point out that there is variety. Those are usually not the allrounder builds, but pushing in a more concrete direction.

 

 

I agree 100% with you! I have also for a long kitten time wished for many of the Tool Kit skills to count as gadget types so it actually would interact better with the Tools traitline. Also some minor buffs and twerks with it to bring it's power up on par with the current state of the game.
Toolbelt skills is another place that Anet could lift core engineer utility skills up by a lot, Gadgets and most weapon kits toolbelt skills in special. 
Tool kit would go a long way if it had a toolbelt skill that were a stunbreak or condi removal.
 

[jaif.3518]

There are more varieties of engineers than chemical, but there are too many weak spots.  Until those are buffed, people will follow familiar patterns and you'll see many similar engies.

 

Turrets - need a rework for each game mode.

Gadgets - Find me someone who uses battering ram. :-)  Seriously, they just should look at the underused ones and buff or replace them.  Give each one a support side; taking up slot skills for attacks is expensive.  

Bomb talent?  I think Juggernaut should apply to bombs and flamethrower.

 

 

 

[Bunny.9834]

You need to try the Gadgeteer Scrapper. It's fun in PvP. CC during team fights and superspeed galore for decapping. 

[Daddy.8125]

On 8/17/2021 at 7:10 PM, jwhite.7012 said:

I find that when I play thief, I use nearly all the utilities for different situations. I use most of them among my 4 pvp builds with the exclusion on like 4 or 5 utilities. Same with my ele, I've mained ele for the majority of my PvE, and was able to climb to g1 just using tempest support. I've even got an elemental summon spam build that really does well. The point being that most classes utilize a large percentage of their utility options.. Engi, does not. 

 

 

But engi has more builds then thief Meta wise?. 

 

I play thief too and I've basically used D/P daredevil for the entire time of using it. Even in the highest gameplay thief set up is identical every time. 

 

There is no variety if you play thief meta wise so it's not really fair to compare that to engineers meta only choices. 

 

It's the same for basically every proffession. No matter how close things are there is a definitive correct choice. You will never get everything even. 

 

So everyone plays the meta builds and then your out classed because your not. Which makes the non-meta build simply look weaker. 

 

 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

In PvE, I find a bit sad both condi and power dps build use almost same build, skills and traits.

They started to lighten some specs like guard or mesmer with virtues, zeal... ; I hope we'll get a rework for example to make explosives the condi  focused spec, firearms the power one,  and tool the hybrid/enhance one, etc.

 

Otherwise in pvp / wvw; this isn't true; I see a lot of variety. Of course there are the "standard" and "common" builds, like prot holo but you can easily trade specs and skills for others and still doing great, surprise people ... while thief or elem have one or two real viable builds,  they are reliant to several traits and skills and they can't really dispose without.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

1 hour ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

I hope we'll get a rework for example to make explosives the condi  focused spec, firearms the power one,  and tool the hybrid/enhance one, etc.

I know that was just an example, but firearms is in a much better position to become a condi-oriented traitline than explosives (6 condi damage traits and 4 power traits on firearms versus 7 power traits and 1 condi trait on explosives, I'm not counting traits here that could be used for both or have some other benefit like vitality).

 

Thing is though, the two guardian traitlines you listed (zeal and virtues) aren't examples of traitlines that fulfill a specific purpose - it's the complete opposite. Zeal is viable for condition builds and power builds, and virtues is viable for literally any build, be it power, condi, healing, or boon support.These traitlines don't have specific roles that they adhere to, rather they provide you with several viable options by making full use of the traits, giving you a choice power, condi, and survivability traits in the same column to provide a range of playstyles. This is the rework that engineer traitlines need (especially tools and inventions). Delete the traits that are useless (things like Automated Medical Response and Autodefense Bomb Dispenser) and move around traits to different columns that overlap too much (Pinpoint Distribution and Thermal Vision). Then replace the gaps with new traits that fill slightly different niches, such that a single traitline has 2 or 3 potential ways of utilising it.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

27 minutes ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

I know that was just an example, but firearms is in a much better position to become a condi-oriented traitline than explosives (6 condi damage traits and 4 power traits on firearms versus 7 power traits and 1 condi trait on explosives, I'm not counting traits here that could be used for both or have some other benefit like vitality).

 

Thing is though, the two guardian traitlines you listed (zeal and virtues) aren't examples of traitlines that fulfill a specific purpose - it's the complete opposite. Zeal is viable for condition builds and power builds, and virtues is viable for literally any build, be it power, condi, healing, or boon support.These traitlines don't have specific roles that they adhere to, rather they provide you with several viable options by making full use of the traits, giving you a choice power, condi, and survivability traits in the same column to provide a range of playstyles. This is the rework that engineer traitlines need (especially tools and inventions). Delete the traits that are useless (things like Automated Medical Response and Autodefense Bomb Dispenser) and move around traits to different columns that overlap too much (Pinpoint Distribution and Thermal Vision). Then replace the gaps with new traits that fill slightly different niches, such that a single traitline has 2 or 3 potential ways of utilising it.

 

May be I explained it the wrong way, but precisely before this rework guardian used the same specs for condi and power in practice (we could argue about virtues with UC for power and permetaing wrath for condi; but Radiance+zeal already offered better results in situation). Now in PvE if you want to optimize in one way you have one more gainfull spec than the others.

 

Of course you still have have options in traits for power, condi, sustain, control, zones, etc; it allows variety in pvp modes and may be in differents situations, encounters in pve; and that's great, but it emerges a slightly clearer roles for each specs; enough to make them overriding in a way if you want to optimize.

 

If you look at engie / holo in pve; as you said you have traits that work a bit for everything and  obliterate may be more focused traits (like the trait on pistols and the +15% precision); and anyway if you want dps you need firearms+explosives no matter you're condi, power,  kit, no kit, one boss or a lot of adds, reliant to other members or not ...

[ThrakathNar.4537]

3 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

May be I explained it the wrong way, but precisely before this rework guardian used the same specs for condi and power in practice (we could argue about virtues with UC for power and permetaing wrath for condi; but Radiance+zeal already offered better results in situation). Now in PvE if you want to optimize in one way you have one more gainfull spec than the others.

 

Of course you still have have options in traits for power, condi, sustain, control, zones, etc; it allows variety in pvp modes and may be in differents situations, encounters in pve; and that's great, but it emerges a slightly clearer roles for each specs; enough to make them overriding in a way if you want to optimize.

 

If you look at engie / holo in pve; as you said you have traits that work a bit for everything and  obliterate may be more focused traits (like the trait on pistols and the +15% precision); and anyway if you want dps you need firearms+explosives no matter you're condi, power,  kit, no kit, one boss or a lot of adds, reliant to other members or not ...

Then perhaps it's better not to touch either firearms or explosives themselves, but instead give the other traitlines options for power and condi, particularly for different niches (like the hybrid damage boon support role that cqfb has). Maybe giving alchemy some condi traits that allow for a hybrid condi boon playstyle, adding a trait in the tools grandmaster slot that affects power damage (probably replacing the one that gives increased endurance regen), or maybe even swap out some of the dead traits in inventions for damage. If there was a second dedicated traitline (maybe Tools) that focused on condi, condi engineer builds would probably always take it instead of explosives, because there's only actually one condi trait there.

 

It is worth noting though, that even though both power and condi use the same traitlines they don't necessarily use the same traits. Power Firearms is 332, Condi is 123. So even though the traitline is the same, the actual traits (and therefore the gameplay, to an extent) is quite different. Also if the new espec has a focus on condi (which I hope it does) it will probably replace holo in that role, as holo is very much a power oriented spec.

 

Although it could just be that we agree but have had some sort of miscommunication lol.

[Daddy.8125]

I think this is just another casulty in the Options V modern gaming mentality realistically. The conceptual idea of options simply cannot exist for aslong as minmaxing and thoerycrafting exists. 

 

For example. If we compare WoW vanilla 2004 and WoW Classic remade. You can see how the "options" we saw in 2004 did not exist in classic. 

 

This is because. Once upon a time in our mmorpg world information wasn't as easily found. There weren't as many people talking about these things and the spread of information was among guilds and not the entire world effectively. 

 

Because every person witn the ability to use a Google search can immediately find the meta build it creates a hole where other builds become obsolete, we no longer test things. We no longer have to base builds on how it feels... We just look at what the pros run realistically. 

 

Ironically in both WoW and FFXIV there's been several periods of time the entire playerbase were running suboptimal traits because a theorycrafter got some part of the math wrong and no one tested anything else to know any different 🤣

 

Today's mentality killed options and variety. Because anything but the best build is considered terrible.. you could be looking at a 2% loss in performance and the community will consider it trash. 

 

There's no realistic way to go back from this now. Unless they manage to make several builds identical in power. Which is on a realistic level impossible. 

[RobinotX.1604]

On 8/31/2021 at 10:14 PM, jaif.3518 said:

There are more varieties of engineers than chemical, but there are too many weak spots.  Until those are buffed, people will follow familiar patterns and you'll see many similar engies.

 

Turrets - need a rework for each game mode.

Gadgets - Find me someone who uses battering ram. 🙂 Seriously, they just should look at the underused ones and buff or replace them.  Give each one a support side; taking up slot skills for attacks is expensive.  

Bomb talent?  I think Juggernaut should apply to bombs and flamethrower.

 

 

 

 

I used Battering Ram for a while in my openworld build. Have to check again what my build was, but it was quite fun. But I am thinking of a new one soon as well cause I have been locked in some of my builds.

[Bomboed.5697]

On 9/7/2021 at 1:47 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

I think this is just another casulty in the Options V modern gaming mentality realistically. The conceptual idea of options simply cannot exist for aslong as minmaxing and thoerycrafting exists. 

 

For example. If we compare WoW vanilla 2004 and WoW Classic remade. You can see how the "options" we saw in 2004 did not exist in classic. 

 

This is because. Once upon a time in our mmorpg world information wasn't as easily found. There weren't as many people talking about these things and the spread of information was among guilds and not the entire world effectively. 

 

Because every person witn the ability to use a Google search can immediately find the meta build it creates a hole where other builds become obsolete, we no longer test things. We no longer have to base builds on how it feels... We just look at what the pros run realistically. 

 

Ironically in both WoW and FFXIV there's been several periods of time the entire playerbase were running suboptimal traits because a theorycrafter got some part of the math wrong and no one tested anything else to know any different 🤣

 

Today's mentality killed options and variety. Because anything but the best build is considered terrible.. you could be looking at a 2% loss in performance and the community will consider it trash. 

 

There's no realistic way to go back from this now. Unless they manage to make several builds identical in power. Which is on a realistic level impossible. 

This.
And solution is simple: if you want variety - make it by yourself. Never ever look and guides. Make builds by yourself, use your brain and imagination, experiment.
Guides are an easy and lazy way. Ignore them. And avoid people who try to force you  to play "optimal" way.