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WvW Alliances confirmed information


Telgum.6071

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Competitive Population Balancing is an oxymoron.

 

Alliances will make ANet into a Cat Herder for WvW.

 

Game mode will never truly be competitive & players will never be satisfied with the Teams ANet cherry picks.

 

The "Alliances" that's designed & planned by ANet will only encourage a toxic game mode when Guilds are given a greater authority regarding this cornerstone of WvW.

 

Guilds & Alliances are subject to internal political power struggles between players in the long-term.

 

Told you so before it happens.

 

Game mode needs to be re-designed to allow players to stack.

 

Example Base Match-Up model that allows stacking, but fair competition...imho

 

1)  Pure King of Hill Match-Up with1 Server at the Top for each Region.

2)  Assign each Server one Map.  Expandable to accommodate player volume. 

3)  Allow players to choose 1 Home Server.

4)  Allow players to attack any Server.

5)  Only Let players to weekly pick 2 Enemy Servers to fight against.

6)  Only Reward players to attack any Higher ranked Server than Home Server.

7)  Use map capacity & queue size to control players entering a Server map.

 

Pure King of the Hill solution provides a Healthy Competitive game mode that allows Server stacking & Lets players play together with all their friends & family against a chosen shared enemy.

 

Eternal Home Servers which provide an identity foundation to the game mode need to be able to naturally evolve over time as their long-term communities rise & fall with the political crash & burning of player controlled Guilds & Alliances.

 

Yours truly,
Diku

 

Credibility requires critical insight & time.

Edited by Diku.2546
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On 8/17/2021 at 8:33 AM, Telgum.6071 said:

Once we've reached the point where we have more balanced worlds and given a reason to win, then we can look at core systems (this was in response to ppt being boring and Grouch agreeing)

So just going to have 50 person PvP squad and rely on PPK, if that is the case then bring in the old Guild Wars Hall of Heroes or make Guild Hall battle live.

PPT is a great function for off hours on the server

Edited by Biermeister.4678
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On 8/17/2021 at 4:12 PM, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

alliances are just worlds right? guild can't choose to remain in them?

The easiest way to put it is like this:

 

Alliance = Guild

It is just an alternative to recruiting players to the cap of your own guild. Think of an alliance as a guild of guilds.

 

World = Server

The difference in the systems is that all servers are broken up at every "relink".

 

Relinks:

  • In the old system the relinks would pair server A with server B to create world A (server + server = world)
  • In the new system guild A will be paired with guild B and player C etc., to create world A (guild+guild+player+player = world)
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47 minutes ago, vilkanor.3072 said:

uhm so, solo players are screwed?

No.  But if running with certain people you have become trusting of us important to you, then you should join their guild.

 

if not, then you have the flexibility of experiencing multiple alliances over a period of time.  Maybe one will be to your liking.

 

but if you prefer to stay solo, then, you don’t have to worry about which guilds you get.

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9 hours ago, vilkanor.3072 said:

uhm so, solo players are screwed?

 

Hmmm...WvW is going to be a lot more lonely for solo players that choose that option.

 

This is what we have now:

Imagine your favorite local bar = World Server = Membership based on Home Server

 

Solo players can visit their local bar & just hang out without the need to be part of clique.  Solo players will get to see other regulars to the local bar.

 

This is what we're going to get:

Imagine your favorite local bar = Alliance = Membership based on Guild & ANet's Schedule of Population Reshuffling

 

Solo players can visit their local bar, but a bouncer will place you in the local bar that needs to be filled because that's their job to balance the population.  Solo players may or may not see other regulars to the new local bars that get created every reshuffle.

 

-----

 

Potential for solo players to be discriminated against because they're not part of a Guild clique, or it's just un-welcoming until some bunny loves you.

 

Solo players need to join a Guild to get that bunny love.

 

However, players will be required to prove that they're the right stuff for the Guild....well at least for any self respecting Elite Guild.

 

Don't forget...Elite Guilds will need to join an Elite Alliance to distill this Right Stuff bunny love.

 

Elite Alliances will only want the Best of the Best Guilds to dominate & suppress all other Non-Elite Guilds. 

 

Just drink that Kool-aid already...why do you want to be solo?

 

-----

 

Last line I was joking, but Seriously....

 

Friendly reminder:

 

Guilds & Alliances are subject to internal political power struggles between players in the long-term.

 

Game mode will never truly be competitive & players will never be satisfied with the Teams ANet cherry picks.

 

-----


Once again...

 

Told you so before things burn down to the ground due to emotionally upset Guild Officers...that are in charge of Juggernaut Guilds within a Constantly Changing & Cherry Picked Alliance.

 

-----

 

On Finding Comfort in fighting all these Pointless battles that we'll be having due to the new Alliance design that constantly needs to create new local bars & is systematically bouncing solo players & all guilds to create the perfect balance of population based on ______ criteria:

 

Let me quote a Swahili Saying...

 

Life has meaning only in the struggle.
Triumph or defeat is in the hands of the Gods.
So let us celebrate the struggle!

 

Please note:

Battles are Not Pointless & will be Totally Fun...IF...you're in an Elite Guild & Elite Alliance.  Potential for encouraging long-term toxic behavior among players very high...imho

 

Population balance will only be a never ending illusion created & maintained by ANet...as we celebrate the struggle!

 

-----

 

Opps....😆

 

Ok...it's time to quietly step back from this huge abyss that came out of nowhere...in regards to the meaning of life.

 

Please carry on & enjoy the rest of this discussion.

 

Yours truly,
Diku

 

Credibility requires critical insight & time.

Edited by Diku.2546
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2 hours ago, vilkanor.3072 said:

uhm so, solo players are screwed?

  • It really depends on what you mean by that.
  • I think the new system does a better job at giving people a situation befitting the choices they make and things they do.
  • It makes solo people ... solo. Is that unfair? It's a choice those players make, it is what they want to do/be.
  • The current system keeps people who wants to play with friends separated from friends. I find that worse.
  • Whatever additional perks a solo player has under the current system comes at the expense of other players.
  • For a long time that wasn't an issue but in later years it has begun taxing more and more expense.
  • That has to do with those other players becomming relatively fewer, and fewer. More relying on fewer = competition.
  • In fact, in the video that this thread got started to share, the streamer, Indomir, talks about that very thing.
  • He talks about pugmanders or content creators/sharers becomming a dying breed. That is a big factor for Alliances.

 

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
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37 minutes ago, displayname.8315 said:

We'll probably be seeing the spreadsheets posted soon.  Is there no recruitment subforum anymore I don't see one.

 

Wonder what guilds will do the beta, hope its the WvW guilds we see tagging and recruiting currently.

I presume everyone will do the beta, just like the elite specialisation beta. If I understood Colin and Grouch right in the past streams, they intend to ship Alliances the way Steam handles "early access". It will be released with the caveat of being unfinished, so they call it a beta, and it will be heavily iterated on but not pulled and rolled in and out beyond planned downtimes. So it's not a sample, it's a beta release that will carry into a finished state. Like MMO's are usually developed, iteratively. It's more language to set expectations and to ship a larger design in a modular coded and piecemeal way. For example, Grouch mentions in the video at the top of this thread that actual Alliances won't be in beta stage 1, only Guilds.

 

In fact, if the 2018 announcement post didn't exist, they would probably not even have called this a beta. They would just have released each module at a time.

 

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
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2 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

Grouch mentions in the video at the top of this thread that actual Alliances won't be in beta stage 1, only Guilds.

Yeah just guilds first he said.  If its like the HoT beta they selected certain guilds to participate.  I remember their being some hubbub about them picking PvE guilds.  But the feedback threads they opened for it were pretty spot on with what should have gotten changed. 

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2 hours ago, displayname.8315 said:

Yeah just guilds first he said.  If its like the HoT beta they selected certain guilds to participate.  I remember their being some hubbub about them picking PvE guilds.  But the feedback threads they opened for it were pretty spot on with what should have gotten changed. 

highly doubt that. The beta for alliances will probably be... live. Straight and simple. Why? Because its meaningless to have it like the elite betas or "select" guilds. It doesnt do anything except basic functionality test - something Anet themselves can do with dummy players. You cant beta test weeks and weeks of an entire matchup system with a tiny fraction of the community - especially not without progress where no one will want to do it after an hour, lol.

 

It will most likely be a monitored "live beta" just like the skirmish system was. They had to change that quite a bit to make it work.

 

But it would be sad if the matchup system go live only with guilds, without the alliance creation system being released weeks before they actually use them to matchup. That would force a breakdown of all servers unless players quickly create temporary WvW "alliance guilds" just for the sake of leaving them later and join the actual alliances. Players need time to organize. I have a hard time imagining Anet being so evil they drop it without the core feature players will need to group up. That would be like releasing a new and improved WvW - its the same as the old, but the commander feature has been deleted.

Edited by Dawdler.8521
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Matchmaking will still be 1 up 1 down but every time a matchup ends, worlds will be remade based on activity.

Of all the info, this one is the most arrgghh.. when you do 1 up 1 down match making, people will throw match.  Just like FA is throwing match right now because they do not want to match against Mag next week. 

You need the "world" WvW to be active 24/7  only than can it be perfect. 1 up 1 down match making has loopholes

Edited by SweetPotato.7456
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11 hours ago, vilkanor.3072 said:

uhm so, solo players are screwed?

 

how are you screwed? because you no longer get carried by guilds you are not a part of and do nothing to contribute to?

 

homes, if you like having a server community so much and playing with the same people you have grown to rely on- join one of their guilds. stop being a solo player if you want to have reliable teammates, otherwise just accept being solo means you are solo and live with your decision.

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6 minutes ago, choovanski.5462 said:

 

how are you screwed? because you no longer get carried by guilds you are not a part of and do nothing to contribute to?

 

homes, if you like having a server community so much and playing with the same people you have grown to rely on- join one of their guilds. stop being a solo player if you want to have reliable teammates, otherwise just accept being solo means you are solo and live with your decision.

So if there was a world today with 2500+ solo/random pugs and a single 20 man guild, are you going to argue the 20 man guild is carrying them? Just wondering. All about perspectives. A guild isnt all that matter.

 

I dont think this will be any major issue though. We already know the monolithic worlds have to become smaller chunks and people will have to move. But small guilds will be just as "screwed" since they will be the first to get shuffled after solo players. And even 100+ man standalone guild will be "screwed" compared to a 500 man guild/alliance. So everybody is basicly just as "screwed".

 

As long as the alliance creation system is good that part should be fine. Still wonder if its restricted though or if alliances can for example invite single player guilds.

 

I have a creeping suspicion it will be restricted in ways we wont like, such as only 5 guilds per alliance (ie 100 peeps each) or something like that.

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8 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

So if there was a world today with 2500+ solo/random pugs and a single 20 man guild, are you going to argue the 20 man guild is carrying them? Just wondering. All about perspectives. A guild isnt all that matter.

 

I dont think this will be any major issue though. We already know the monolithic worlds have to become smaller chunks and people will have to move. But small guilds will be just as "screwed" since they will be the first to get shuffled after solo players. And even 100+ man standalone guild will be "screwed" compared to a 500 man guild/alliance. So everybody is basicly just as "screwed".

 

As long as the alliance creation system is good that part should be fine. Still wonder if its restricted though or if alliances can for example invite single player guilds.

 

I have a creeping suspicion it will be restricted in ways we wont like, such as only 5 guilds per alliance (ie 100 peeps each) or something like that.

firstly, that's a ridiculous scenario. but hey, let's say it's happening. let's say there are 2500 pugs and a single guild. if you are one of those 2500 pugs and you are crying that you are now screwed with alliances because you now won't be able to play with those same pugs every week- but you aren't making a guild with them you are a fool.

 

if you somehow are a solo player who wants to play with the same pugs every week, but you refuse to join a guild with them so you can play together every week you are insane. you are literally creating your own problem and complaining about it.

 

people are only 'screwed' if they want something, but are either too lazy or too in denial to go and get it. if you are in a small guild, but you want to have the same big guilds every week- you need to join an alliance guild for WvW and rep another one. if you are a solo player who wants to play with the same community every week, you need to admit you actually are not a solo player and join a community guild.

 

the only reason you will be shuffled every match up and alone with alliances is because you choose to be. so if you choose to be alone and have no community, and to do nothing about it, don't complain.

Edited by choovanski.5462
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10 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:
  • Whatever additional perks a solo player has under the current system comes at the expense of other players.

there are none, we can't even claim camps, I can't use guild siege, heck even when I tag up I don't get any benefit.

 

So basically I will be forced into a guild in one way or another, unless I want to have a subpar WvW experience...

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28 minutes ago, vilkanor.3072 said:

you mean those 50 guys afkin' in the lobby while I cap stuff?

the 50 guys draining keep's supply, who were too lazy to get from camp and top up 5 in keep, leaving the solo players to defend the already half dead map, while they say : so many bags and log out.

 

Edited by SweetPotato.7456
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2 hours ago, vilkanor.3072 said:

there are none, we can't even claim camps, I can't use guild siege, heck even when I tag up I don't get any benefit.

 

So basically I will be forced into a guild in one way or another, unless I want to have a subpar WvW experience...

Those things do not really relate to what you cited. However, you can make or buy your own guild. Others have.

1 hour ago, vilkanor.3072 said:

you mean those 50 guys afkin' in the lobby while I cap stuff?

Then you would be glad to be rid of them, no? See, Alliances is a good thing for you 🤣.

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4 hours ago, vilkanor.3072 said:

there are none, we can't even claim camps, I can't use guild siege, heck even when I tag up I don't get any benefit.

 

Anyone can buy guild siege from the TP.  Don’t have to be in a guild to use it.

 

4 hours ago, vilkanor.3072 said:

So basically I will be forced into a guild in one way or another, unless I want to have a subpar WvW experience...

 Nothing will change for you with the exception of which guilds AFK at spawn during your matchups.

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WvW should be all about creating & maintaining positive stable long-term virtual communities...imho

 

Guilds & Alliances should be supporting pillars, but not be the primary identity that's the bedrock to providing a shelter for all to huddle under.

 

A World Server's identity Should Be decided by those that freely choose to form under its banner & not arbitrarily assigned by a 3rd party bent on balancing things like a soccer mom.  Where do intangible rewards like honor & dignity find a home when title is given out this way? 

 

A banner created using these mechanics becomes meaningless & followers will only look out for their own self interests.

 

Players will not be allowed to bond with an Eternal Identity that would provide a universal place to call Home that's beyond the control of a Guild or Alliance.

 

Currently = Home Server picked by Players

Vs

Alliances = Home Server systematically reshuffled by ANet

 

Guilds & Alliances will come & go over time due to internal power politics, but a Home Server that can be chosen by Players themselves should be Eternal...imho

 

-----

 

To a majority of you...WvW...is just a game...which is true.  However, there's a chance that WvW has a deeper social meaning that the majority may not comprehend.  You'll know if this is you...when you experience those moments without realizing it's upon you.

 

The design of this game mode is serious, but the discussions & resulting re-coding do not reflect what is sometimes at stake.  ANet has a huge financial stake, however,  players can have a huge emotional stake in it without really recognizing it for what it is...imho

 

What do you want WvW to be for you & are you asking for it here in the forum?

 

Or, are you a Forum Expert that's more interested in perpetuating the gab?

 

Yours truly,
Diku

 

Credibility requires critical insight & time.

Edited by Diku.2546
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Well at least they're doing somethin'.


Still would prefer they spent a few weeks to fix the numbers of some core systems, like SM upgrade time and powercrept siege system, instead of only working on 6 year projects. And metas pretty dull too. Pillbender and badbinger won't fix it.

Alliances don't sound too great but anything is better than the system atm

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22 hours ago, displayname.8315 said:

Yeah just guilds first he said.  If its like the HoT beta they selected certain guilds to participate.  I remember their being some hubbub about them picking PvE guilds.  But the feedback threads they opened for it were pretty spot on with what should have gotten changed. 

 

It could be shortened matchups during the betas, since the first beta is going to be Guilds only, the first beta will test the initial systems and then the second will be open to others they invite?

 

Then we might see a proper rollout next year? Will wait and see some proper confirmation from them soon though, because not everything is clear, especially since there is "no timeframe" tied with the release of the expansion.

Edited by CrimsonNeonite.1048
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8 hours ago, displayname.8315 said:

Form the Globes alliance it will be the foundation of WvW.  I will join even if it's across the pond.

Please dont use the term globe for WvW. It doesnt exist and it never will. Its like saying flat earth.

Edited by Dawdler.8521
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