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Every virtue needing 5 attacks to trigger is just not good and runs into the same design flaw of Permeating Wrath where its nearly useless in small scale but completely OP in large encounters.  

Offhand Sword needs a functionality rework, not just numbers buff.   For being a fluid duelist, why does every single skill have a clunky aftercast and animation lock? Hell Focus feels more

the willbender feels like a no no go in pvp, even a firebrand is stronger than WB in pvp.  first of all: all the mobility skills feel very underwhelming, harbringer travels more with his 2 leaps in

Skill animations are great, really mobile which means it will probably shine in pvp but I don't see it being that useful in pve(which is a bummer to me)
Restorative virtues seems great on paper when you pair it with Lethal tempo but it feels somewhat bad when you let the stacks drop, and tracking when to use your next virtue so cooldown reset is rolling properly feels bad, really bad. Especially without some bigger icons with cooldowns

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Every virtue needing 5 attacks to trigger is just not good and runs into the same design flaw of Permeating Wrath where its nearly useless in small scale but completely OP in large encounters.

 

Maybe give them once every 2 attack trigger but have an internal ICD per target struck so the gameplay isn't so drastically different depending on how many targets you're attacking.

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19 minutes ago, Darknicrofia.2604 said:

Every virtue needing 5 attacks to trigger is just not good and runs into the same design flaw of Permeating Wrath where its nearly useless in small scale but completely OP in large encounters.

 

Maybe give them once every 2 attack trigger but have an internal ICD per target struck so the gameplay isn't so drastically different depending on how many targets you're attacking.

For a first try, pretty much this. The whole spec feels very strong when tons of enemies are packed because of the amount of "ticks" you get with your flames (even more if you trait for example in larger symbols).

It feels very lackluster when you face less enemies, or when they're very mobile, as they don't stand in your flames, preventing any mechanics tied to your virtues to kick in (like stability, alacrity if traited etc). Moreso if you rely heavily on them to get condition removals and stability. Otherwise, you have to rely on consecrations, which aren't feeling great paired with WB's mobility, or shouts which could be great except you're not a buffing master as other guard specs.

Overall, it feels very clunky. It should be great against mobile enemies and a little weaker against non moving targets. It feels completely the other way around.

Edited by Neva Eilhart.5347
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4 hours ago, Neva Eilhart.5347 said:

For a first try, pretty much this. The whole spec feels very strong when tons of enemies are packed because of the amount of "ticks" you get with your flames (even more if you trait for example in larger symbols).

It feels very lackluster when you face less enemies, or when they're very mobile, as they don't stand in your flames, preventing any mechanics tied to your virtues to kick in (like stability, alacrity if traited etc). Moreso if you rely heavily on them to get condition removals and stability. Otherwise, you have to rely on consecrations, which aren't feeling great paired with WB's mobility, or shouts which could be great except you're not a buffing master as other guard specs.

Overall, it feels very clunky. It should be great against mobile enemies and a little weaker against non moving targets. It feels completely the other way around.


Dont use the offhand sword, play with sword/mace focus or shield and hammer

Hammer FEELLS good with WB, resolved the clunkiness 😐

 

Offhand felt terrible, think wil be a discarded weapon by players like soulbeast dagger... makes the class a bit clunky with it,  offhand sword needs to be offhand defense and counter atack imo, classes already have decent mobility W/O it, and we can also use meditation wich for me was mandatory for condi cleanse and minor heals.

 

EDIT: loved the hammer KB target and persue target to a KD to another KB 😄

Edited by Aeolus.3615
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f1 virtue should  get evade 3/4 and a quickness for 2 sec plus remove swiftness and give superspeed for 3 sec.

sword 5# should also get evade 3/4.

feel so squishy even in marauder gear.

sword 4# should do more 2x dmg (with 2.4k power I do 1.9k non crit dmg which is like auto attack - full marauder build)

edit1:

Buff heal skill "reversal of fortune" to 3 sec. Conceited curate is also bad, you should buff it by 50-100% or give something else. Buff heal to 10-12k if they attack you, it often gets interrupted. 

edit2:

f1 or Rushing justice is not smooth often it stop you from moving after you use it, feels clunky.

edit3:

willbender loses to every condition build out there, I even took CoP and Smite condition, you just melt to condi builds. Its not viable in this condi meta. 

edit4:

willbender need some access to cripple and chill, maybe on f1 skill some quickness, this is assassin not grandma poochie.

edit 5

f2 Flowing resolve should heal 2k not 700 or at least buff its effect to heal 1k+ per hit plus maybe a cripple if you step on the line, every 3 or 5 hit is bad and make it 5 sec duration. 

edit 6

sword skill 3 should change attack to something similar to revenant sword 3# skill if you equip sword offhand.

edit 7

f3 does not give stability on cast and often gets interrupted.

edit 8

I never die to wvw camp mobs when playing with dh and fb, with willbender I just go down so quickly.

 

 

Overall this profession feels like DH in 1st beta, clunky , weak and unfinished. Need some woah effects to be viable in pvp and wvw. Not buying it in this state.

Edited by Ragnarox.9601
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And for a supposed "Quick Execution" class, you really have no means of actually chasing down and finishing off a target that is running away from you that has any sort of active defense and a stunbreak.

 

Resistance on Shadowstep is great for preventing cripples/blinds etc but if they just keep running away and can throw up a block or two you really have no means of getting more than 1 or 2 hits in before they keep running.

 

This spec REALLY needs access to an easy form of cripple, chill or continuous tracking attacks like Rev Sword 3.

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12 minutes ago, Darknicrofia.2604 said:

And for a supposed "Quick Execution" class, you really have no means of actually chasing down and finishing off a target that is running away from you that has any sort of active defense and a stunbreak.

 

Resistance on Shadowstep is great for preventing cripples/blinds etc but if they just keep running away and can throw up a block or two you really have no means of getting more than 1 or 2 hits in before they keep running.

 

This spec REALLY needs access to an easy form of cripple, chill or continuous tracking attacks like Rev Sword 3.

Try to use Glacial Heart and see how it works.
 

 

11 minutes ago, Darknicrofia.2604 said:

The heal skill absolutely needs to be instant cast like the Herald heal skill, otherwise its a joke.

You don't want anymore instant cast heal skills in this game. The cast times on the Herald heal skill need to be flipped between the facet and the consume as it is.

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So many of the baseline Guardian traits have effects that interact with the passive effects of the virtues...which Willbender virtues do not have.

 

So it's very unclear if those traits have any utility at all for Willbender. Removing them really slashes the number of viable trait builds, especially once you remove traits that boost weapons or utility types (e.g. shout, mantra, physical) that aren't used.

 

Needs in-game clarity on if they interact with Willbender virtues.

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1 hour ago, Aeolus.3615 said:


Dont use the offhand sword, play with sword/mace focus or shield and hammer

Hammer FEELLS good with WB, resolved the clunkiness 😐

 

Offhand felt terrible, think wil be a discarded weapon by players like soulbeast dagger... makes the class a bit clunky with it,  offhand sword needs to be offhand defense and counter atack imo, classes already have decent mobility W/O it, and we can also use meditation wich for me was mandatory for condi cleanse and minor heals.

 

EDIT: loved the hammer KB target and persue tardet to a KD 😄

 

The clunkiness I talked about mostly came from that feeling of being overpowered when running in a zerg context with tons of enemies ticking in my flames to boost my virtues (just go F3 -> whatever symbol you have to lay on the ground and enjoy insane damage and stacks of stability / aegis / whatever floats your boat), opposed to when you're not in an aoe situation, where the class feels far more powerless and struggles. Thematically, it should be the other way around : assassins are supposed to be good at picking and chasing down one target, and be just average when in a zerg, right ?

 

I mean, I've gone to the tangled dephts and when you get away from any other player there, you see the limitation caused by the "5 attacks to proc your virtue" mechanic.

 

EDIT : one other problematic thing I've noticed : even when traited properly with virtues GM trait, F3 doesn't grant you stability right off the bat. You have to wait for the shadowstep animation to finish (about 0.5 seconds to 1 sec) before getting it. Which is pretty counter intuitive and flawed.

Edited by Neva Eilhart.5347
F3 virtue
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Bitte Arenanet, sagt mir das die Spezialisierung vom Wächter ein Scherz ist. Ein Wächter soll doch eher der Fels in der Brandung sein und kein Fäuste schwingender Ninja. Gibt die Spezialisierung dem Dieb und denkt euch bitte etwas neues aus! Ich werde definitiv mit meinem Char diese Spezialisierung nicht nutzen, kitten ja nicht mal die Schwerter zu sehen sind. Bitte überdenk das nochmal, ich bin gespannt was die anderen Spieler dazu sagen werden.

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2 minutes ago, Neva Eilhart.5347 said:

 

The clunkiness I talked about mostly came from that feeling of being overpowered when running in a zerg context with tons of enemies ticking in my flames to boost my virtues (just go F3 -> whatever symbol you have to lay on the ground and enjoy insane damage and stacks of stability / aegis / whatever floats your boat), opposed to when you're not in an aoe situation, where the class feels far more powerless and struggles. Thematically, it should be the other way around : assassins are supposed to be good at picking and chasing down one target, and be just average when in a zerg, right ?

 

I mean, I've gone to the tangled dephts and when you get away from any other player there, you see the limitation caused by the "5 attacks to proc your virtue" mechanic.

 

100% this, you should feel stronger fighting 1v1 or 1v2 than being a yolo Dynasty Warriors 1v1000 fodder mob tagging machine with Virtue Procs.

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I was testing mindbender i honestly don't know how aeolus or neve does it, i was running around in pof and  hot areas in groups and when i was able to get kills i was with small amounts but a lot of tougher single ones just completely wrecked me.

I didn't see the kind of numbers cept maybe  that attack aeolus told me about that knocks y ou into the sky does like 6k on Hammer.

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PvE dmg is worse than dragonhunter and core guardian with the rotation being pretty much the same.

In WvW it melts and skills are bad in general for the gamemode, so it's to be expected here.

Problem is it's bad in PvP as well which i suppose is where it was supposed to be good, the dmg is bad and it is squishy, the mobility is on high cds for the distance traveled and mostly on target making it hard to roam as well, virtues passive effects requiring to hit 5 times is bad for the gamemode considering the class has to keep kiting and can't stay on targets hitting them.

The biggest problem though is that all shadowsteps have an animation AFTER the shadowstep, which means that if targets just walk away they don't get hit, like for greatsword 3. Also you are forced to take the meditations for cleansing and virtue reset so you can fit in at most two physical skills other than the heal skill, which also either does not work or is really bad.

Edited by Kanto.2485
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the willbender feels like a no no go in pvp, even a firebrand is stronger than WB in pvp. 
first of all: all the mobility skills feel very underwhelming, harbringer travels more with his 2 leaps in shroud than a WB with all his virtues together. also almost every skill that it has is mobility but nothing else. one cc that does nothing more? harbringer has cc on pistol and does more that WBs cc. Id say any class has a better cc than a guard but thats another thing.  the off hand sword skills are so useless that id rather take a focus with the block thats not so great either. hell even a torch for damage or shield for the one knock (that does nothing more) is better than the off hand skills of the sword.
traits: what game mode did you have in mind while making the first tier of traits for WB? cuz like, for sure a support would not take the concentration or healing, maybe a selfish tank or i dont even know in which game mode any1 would take it becuase tankls are played as a support. the power one is like, sure get more power but lose toughness, kay, now as a guard with 11k base hp you gotta take toughness to compensate cuz im pretty sure no1 in their right mind would take that trait into pvp without taking toughness which will be a must have with that trait otherwise youll just melt like a chocolate in a hot summer day.  for pve okay but for pvp or wvw theres nothing to choose in that first tier.

the second tier feels like the only thing you can take is the CD shortening tho it looks like its bugged or i have no idea how it should work cuz the only think that gets the "faster cd" is f1 skill. the trait with boons on f3 has to be paired with the concentration on cuz otherwise you get 3s of boons that will do basically nothing in pvp compared to an engi and his boon output or a scourge that strips the boons for himself. the healing one might be useful when there are many enemy but otherwise it wont do much. 

for the last tier of traits id say that the last one is so freaking useless, like, kay, cant be downed but hello? ill have 1hp and ill just die cuz literally any class will catch up to me or one condi will kill me after. 

im just so dissapointed by this spec that i just lost all motivation to write anything else :/ 
any willbender i faced with harbringer died horribly. look at twitch, nobody is playing it cuz it just does nothing. in every game the willbender dies fastest if he wants to join fight. he cant even do a decent 1v1 and does nothing in team fights so for pvp im not gonna touch it again until theres something that the spec will be able to do.  cant see a real use for it in wvw either so lets hope it has something to offer in pve but with all the skills being mobility and useless stuff it wont have more dps than a dragonhunter.

 

that being said, i just feel sadness now :( 

 

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8/17/21:

 

Thematically it is goods. Animation wise okay. Combat wise, not great. From PvE it is high risk, low reward. Comparatively DH is much safer to play and does better damage. Also, most of the mobility skills were pretty short distance. It plays much like power rev, but power rev is better in every possible way. I have not tested its condi damage potential, which could work better.

 

From design stand point, it will clearly require virtues. And virtues damage modifiers are heavily reliant on maintaining aegis, which is highly unreliable. And it does not have means of generating aegis.

 

I think much needs buff rework for it to work well in pve. It seems to be ab elite spec that is purely for mobility in pvp and bad everywhere else. 
 

A solution would possible making some modifications to sword MH when speced into Willbender.

 

8/20/21:

 

Okay… with 4 days of testing behind me. Again PvE focus.

 

Pros:

It fulfills an are that guardian is missing.

Thematically it is decent.

 

Cons:

Man… I think this is the laziest elite spec design so far. For OH sword, someone copy+pasted rev of hand sword. Sure… WB is close thematically to power rev, but I was not expecting skills on weapon to be literally the same.

 

The physical utilities are out of place. Why do we have to jam monk skills into an assassin theme? It is so out of place. I guess it is too late to change them now.

 

Mobility… sucks. Ya sure, it is the most mobile guardian spec, but did whoever design it play another mobile class before? 450 distance is not a gap closer. Limited built in tools to maintain swiftness (less charge which should never be used in any game mode, unless you are support). No superspeed. And big part of mobility, in pvp at least, is the ability to disengage. The resolve is a maybe here. But you usually for this to work you need to open 900 plus distance, instantly, or have the ability to use the skill multiple times in a short window. Going back to power rev… again, Shiro shadow steps me to a target, 1,200 away, does damage, provides quickness and highly spammable. This does probably more than half of WB gap closing combined, and instantly. Here is a quick guide for mobility:

1. High distance gap closer.

2. Swiftness and/is superspeed easily accessible and not requiring utility sacrifice.

3. Ability to easily disengage, usually, by creating a distance between you and your target. 

 

In PvE, we need to pivot away from GS. If all power builds use GS, why does WB even exist? I don’t want this to end-up another SB situation, where it still uses axes in PvE. The GS/sword build has been the power build since HoT, 6 years ago. If nothing changes, I guess this is it for guardian. Even if WB ends up doing a bit more damage than DH, it is still essentially the same build.

 

And since we are on the subject of damage, ya… it is not working great. As a veteran spvper who used to main guardian, guardian lacks power damage in pvp. The mobility does not mean much if your damage cannot hit. Again, pve you will just dump GS symbol and spin. That would not work in pvp. Which takes us to sword OH.

 

As I said before, it is copy paste from rev. Skill 4 nuke melee atk, skill 5 a 600 range leap. Though there are differences. Major differences. Like sword 4 having no range and slow animation. Unless I absolutely stand still, it is likely to miss…. in PvE. I am pretty certain there is no way this will hit anything in pvp. Skill 5 is good. Just too long of a CD. I much rather it have 15 sec CD and remove the slow. 
 

Since we are in sword, MH sword 3 does not work on a highly mobile spec. At all. 

Virtues, justice should not have an after cast. After the first cast it should be instance. Resolve, this is the worst in pve. Terrible healing. If you are close to the target will take you out of melee range. Courage though is cool design, animation and strong effect.

 

Utilities, I liked the spin. The drawback one too. The other ones were okayish. The punch one needs more damage in pve. Same for elite. CC is not why you pick a utility in PvE. I am not seeing much reason to use it over FmW. And heal is bad, but I was not expecting it to be more useful than LoR in pve. 

 

———————————————

 

The TL;dr:

1. copy paste from rev.
2. Mobility is not working well.

3. No distinct game play from power DH and core.

4. Too many and too long after casts.

5. Weak burst, thus no reward for higher risk.

 

To keep it constructive, suggestions:

1. Obviously reduce/remove the after casts.

2. Redesign sword OH. 
3. Consider altering sword 3 MH when WB elite is selected.

4. Consider making one of the elite GMs buff power by 300 (pve) when a sword (MH or OH) is equipped. Reduce power by 300 for other weapons. Maybe throw in a ferocity bonus somewhere, for swords. 
5. Consider adding quickness and superspeed to some skills/utilities.

6. Resolve, make it when used when a target selected, go to the target instead of continuing to go through till the end of the range. Instead of the reg, make it heal you for 10% of the damage dealt (pve). much more thematic than reg and works much better.

Edited by otto.5684
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2 minutes ago, otto.5684 said:

Thematically it is goods. Animation wise okay. Combat wise, not great. From PvE it is high risk, low reward. Comparatively DH is much safer to play and does better damage. Also, most of the mobility skills were pretty short distance. It plays much like power rev, but power rev is better in every possible way. I have not tested its condi damage potential, which could work better.

 

From design stand point, it will clearly require virtues. And virtues damage modifiers are heavily reliant on maintaining aegis, which is highly unreliable. And it does not have means of generating aegis.

 

I think much needs buff rework for it to work well in pve. It seems to be ab elite spec that is purely for mobility in pvp and bad everywhere else. 
 

A solution would possible making some modifications to sword MH when speced into Willbender.

 

Its bad in pvp too prob even worst there cuz 5 hits for a virtue passive is almos imposible. 

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3 minutes ago, otto.5684 said:

Thematically it is goods. Animation wise okay. Combat wise, not great. From PvE it is high risk, low reward. Comparatively DH is much safer to play and does better damage. Also, most of the mobility skills were pretty short distance. It plays much like power rev, but power rev is better in every possible way. I have not tested its condi damage potential, which could work better.

 

From design stand point, it will clearly require virtues. And virtues damage modifiers are heavily reliant on maintaining aegis, which is highly unreliable. And it does not have means of generating aegis.

 

I think much needs buff rework for it to work well in pve. It seems to be ab elite spec that is purely for mobility in pvp and bad everywhere else. 
 

A solution would possible making some modifications to sword MH when speced into Willbender.

It doesn't need to be good in PvE, the fact that its better in PvE right now than PvP just highlights how badly designed the Virtue procs are thematically.

 

Right now its a PvP spec that's going to be bad at PvP because of its clunky animations and lackluster traits.

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