Willbender Feedback Thread

[Matt H.6142]

I like the the heavy uppercut on justice but I’ve cancel cast it a couple times with weapon swap.  As this doesn’t require a weapon, this should finish casting. 

[Archwizard.1603]

Virtues:

F1 feels too short ranged and is clunky in use. Animation of fist could be quicker and 600 range would make it feel much better.

Willbender Flames, idk I feels like they could be combo fields the f2 flames looks like ele dagger 3 or staff 4 on fire, seeing it on ground makes me think they are fire fields even though they aren't.

Indomitable Courage should grant the stability with the stun break at the start of skill use. I use F3 and got stunned before it landed I feel it having the stability at start would make it better. 

 

Healing:

Reversal of Fortune needs work. You can get CC'ed out and get none of the heal making it useless cause do will be taking damage. It does not work if Aegis is up cause it just blocks. Protector's Restoration Trait only works if skill goes through full cast time if you are attacked it does not spawn a symbol even though the skill is used. Because Guardian has quite of few blind and aegis application don't get much out of this skill especially in open world PvE.

 

Utility:

Roiling Light is good but Quick Retribution is clunky, does not always go where you want to go and short range.

 

It appears there is some core traits that don't interact to well with Willbender which I think are virtues like the grandmaster virtue traits and healing causes many traits interact with those mechanics.

 

Overall I had fun testing it out, but it needs a little more TLC.

 

[Sonork.2916]

I like the idea behind Willbender but right now it doesn't feel good to play.  It feels clunky and offers no high impact abilities or unique playstyle to the guardian's default kit.

 

It's mechanic of triggering effects while under a virtue buff is incredibly underwhelming.  Since there are no passive effects the buffs when you activate a virtue should be per hit, which would then offer some spike damage, healing and utility from their respective virtues during their short windows of activation.

 

The movement offered by the virtues is also very underwhelming. The dashes are all so short and have delays attached that really make them feel bad to use, you could blow all 3 virtues to get as far as GS 5 on warrior... None of the new movement options WB adds feel good to use and the core guardian utility skill: Judges intervention, is still the best catchup skill available to the guardian... even after adding an entire kit based around increased movement.

 

If the Willbender is suppose to be a fast moving assassin type spec it should offer direct damage abilities and not bother putting more aoes on the ground that no one but PvE mobs will stand in.

 

The new physical skills are bare bones and offer very little in terms of usable abilities when you can only have 3 utilities total. I'd love to see some other effects added to them to make them more useful.

 

The new elite skill Heaven's Palm is a worse Bane Signet, a utility skill which is never used.

 

The heal feels odd but with some tweaks could be fine. It can get interrupted too easily during it's channel.

 

Other than increased mobility, which seems to be the aim of this spec, I think Willbender needs another "thing" to lean into. The name sounds like someone that would bend the will of it's enemies to give themselves an advantage, but not a single skill does something like that.

 

Here are some ideas of effects that could be added to skills the WB uses to play into the "Willbender" angle.

- Fear Effects - Break their will to fight.

- Taunt Effects - You Bend their will so they cannot run.

- Boon stealing - You turn their strengths into your own.

- Boon copying - Copy boons from your enemy to yourself.

- Boon/condi switching - Swap boons and conditions with a target

- Condi reflecting - You reverse incoming conditions and toss them back at your enemy.

- Unblockable attacks that deal more damage if opponent is blocking.

- Basic monk stuff like attacks that destroy/reflect/dodge projectiles

- Burn Damage that cripples/slow/chill enemies so you can land melee attacks on them.

 

The traits could use a rework, simply reducing cool downs and adding stats is not a fun or interesting way to make traits. I'd like to see additional effects added to things, to make choosing traits actually change stuff up.  Right now, picking nothing but a Master trait is actually a good choice for the Willbender...

 

Synergy with other guardian trait-lines is really bad considering a lot of traits effect passives that no longer exist for the WB. Which really limit what you can pick form other trait lines.

 

I know the spec will be tuned up between now and release and I'm looking forward to see what changes.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Sonork.2916

[Arken.3725]

After Beta Review:

 

This is an updated review after playing the beta for a few days.  

 

Virtue's:

All of the virtue's cd's are way too long given what you lose.  As purely selfish skills, these should be much stronger for the user than any of the current specializations but....they're not.  You lose your passives as well as the necessary hits to land for trigger effects are too many.  F1's after-cast needs to be removed, F2 and F3 are very smooth otherwise.  I also believe the idea of losing a virtue's effects after activating another really hinders the flow.  It's NEVER a good idea to spam your virtue's but if someone wants to do it, why not?

 

Off-hand Sword:

Executioners calling hits like a wet-noodle, even when fully specced into dps.  It's also WAY too difficult to land and clunky to boot.  If this ability is to maintain its difficulty, the benefits(dmg) need to reflect that.

 

Advancing Strike is really nice, maybe just increase the range a little.

 

Utilities:

Reversal of Fortune:  Completely broken and buggy.  If this works as a true full-counter skill, it would be amazing.

Flash Combo:  It's a fun ability to use just incredibly difficult to land the 5-hits needed for repose, even if the target is just moving.  Cooldown could be slightly lowered as well.

Whirling Light:  This ability feels the most complete.  Granted, it only works well within melee range, it still does good dmg with decent condition application.  I'd put a reflect on this or MAYBE an evasion to make it perfect.  It's almost there.

Heel Crack:  This is the first stun given to Guardian but you need significant follow-up to make this work.  Without that, it's just a waste of a slot.  This one feels like it needs the most work.

Roiling Light:  This stun-break is arguably one of the weakest currently available to Guardian across all specs.  This does almost nothing to sustain you after the initial break.  This needs more cleanse and a far shorter-cd to be viable.

Heaven's Palm:  This feels like an incredibly weak version of Jade Winds, Chill to the Bone, Prime Light Beam, ect.  It's too hard to setup.  This, just like Heel Crack probably need an overhaul.

 

Traits:

 

Minors: 

Righteous Sprint:  Finally, a movement speed trait but the added swiftness feels redundant, maybe superspeed or quickness?

Lethal Tempo:  This is too difficult to upkeep the stacks given how many hits needed from virtue's.  Reduce the necessary hits needed.

 

Majors:

 

Adepts:

I'm all for trade-off's but these are taken way too far.  You're not getting NEARLY as much as you have to give.

 

Boon Pact:  If you want to keep this as is, at least make it equal.  15% does not equate to losing 50%.

Power for Power:  Again, another boring trait.  This one is at least closer to being equal.  Maybe change this into something that gives you a benefit for having one or more swords equipped?

Conceited Curate:  See Boon Pact.

 

Masters:

 

Restorative Virtue's:  This trait heavily encourages you to spam your virtue's which is NEVER a good idea.  Rework this into something else.

Holy Reckoning:  The damage bonus to Willbender flames is tacked on for no reason.  Not to mention, this requires you to keep an enemy within the small circle(just like symbols) to benefit.  Stop giving static mechanics to an obviously dynamic specialization.

Vanguard Tactics:  I like this one, probably doesn't need changing.

 

Grand Masters:

 

Phoenix Protocol:  Too much of a trade-off with the amount of hits to trigger any given effect.  Again, not even close to equal.

Tyrant's Momentum:  This is a little bit easier to access given it works on all virtue procs/activations but It's still VERY difficult to keep those stacks going given how many hits is required in combination with the reduced duration.

Deathless Courage:  Needs a complete overhaul.

 

This overview is STRICTLY for spvp.

[ReaverKane.7598]

Going into this elite spec i was expecting to be disappointed, and it disappointed that expectation. I built it for power dps and i had a blast with it. I didn't experiment in pvp modes, since i haven't done much of any of those, and i feel i wouldn't do it justice. So i stuck to what i do the most and that is fractals.

First impressions:
The elite spec is a ton of fun, and that mobility might actually make me want to go back to doing spvp on guardian, because its enhancing the playstyle i enjoyed of ambushing and chasing down enemies with sword and judges intervention.

 

Weapon Skills:

The sword offhand is fun, but honestly it feels a bit out-shined by focus. That said, on PvP it might actually be awesome.
 

Physical skills
The physical skills are a barrel of fun. Flash combo and Whirling light feel awesome to use, the later always giving me a flashback to street fighter matches ^_^. The selection of skills feels well balanced and i can see myself using them all in different circumstances.

The exception was the elite... Even though it is probably the strongest cc available to Guardian, i don't know it feels a bit weak, visually.  Which is a bit of a theme with Willbender...

The healing skill, however is a bit of a bust. First, it lacks a bit of visual feedback. While other blocking skills in guardian all have bubbles or light barriers in front of you this one is just your character going into a boxing guard for a second. In the middle of a fight its almost impossible to tell if it went off or not.
The duration is shallow to say the least. And what's worse it can be ccd. I got knocked back a dozen times when using it. Its a joke.
The healing should be proportional to damage avoided, not flat values, because its not great in flat values.
I mean 90% of the time, i'm better off just taking Shelter instead.
 

Virtues

The new virtues are fun. It felt a bit off at first waiting for 5 strikes, but usually it works well enough, especially with greatsword.
I still have feedback issues with it. Like "game giving me feedback" issues, not me giving you:

Its very hard to tell when the virtue effect is up without having to glance down to the boon bar, and its also very hard to tell when it triggered. There's basically NO visual feedback on the effects.
When they're up you have these tiny flames on your hands, which are barely noticeable.
My suggestion would be to extend the flames down the weapon(s) or up the arms, and have it pulse out when you manage an activation, for visual feedback to the player.
 

Traits
The grandmaster traits on willbender are probably the best ones on this beta, because they do what a grandmaster trait should, they change the way things work and define your gameplay. They're pretty fun and honestly i'd like to use them all, which is good.
Master Traits also give you choices and flexibility.

Adept traits are a bit less so. I mean selfish boons and heals are nice, if you have a good source for those... Which you don't, I mean only decent thing you could want is alac from Phoenix Protocol, but its not worth losing those 240 power over it. Basically the top and bottom adept are filler. for pve at least. You might use one just to avoid losing the toughness in PvP or WvW, i guess, but still, personally they don't do anything much.
I mean the concept of them is awesome, i love the give something, get something in return, but giving away healing power or outgoing boons in this spec doesn't do much, and neither does getting extra self boon duration or healing. I mean, on Firebrand? On Firebrand those would be amazing traits, because there's an actual sacrifice and a choice.

My other issue is core traits that interact with "Virtue Passives". For the most part, they kinda work, but the one that would make things the most interesting, Battle Presence, that doesn't do anything, and i'm not sure if its a bug or by design.

 

TLDR
Willbender was the dark horse on this race for me. It seemed to be a gimmicky PvP-centric spec, but it actually performs pretty well in PVE as well, and is quite fun to play, and seems to have plenty of room to be mastered into higher values.
Its a bit lacking in the visual effects department, especially in terms of Reversal of Fortune and the Virtues lacking a visual confirmation of activation and effect. I mean, sure there's a boon icon in the boon bar, but a more diagetic approach, like the blight "meter" of harbinger being the green effect covering more and more of its body would enhance the gameplay.
 It did pretty well in Fractals, losing only to CFB in terms of boss DPS and topping off high in trash mob mopping.
It seems that it will be competing for a space in PVE with Dragonhunter, so it might be interesting to give it something extra to differentiate between the two (maybe the lethal tempo effect will be enough to make it stand out, but it also might need a higher stack count).

Edited August 22, 2021 by ReaverKane.7598

[Ezrael.6859]

After playing WvW all weekend solo roaming and with small groups vs Mag and JQ and it's just been horrible trying to play an all melee Willbender.

Going into fights you get utterly torn up, Crashing Courage doesn't offer enough sustain, if you're managing to attack 5 targets with GS or Whirling Light then you're dead shortly after to big close range bursts or long range bursts.

Outside of 5 golem demo videos, this skill doesn't work against good players.

 

The roaming scene is still dominated by Grenade Scrapper / Sic'Em Soulbeast / DP Staff Daredevil.

 

Grenade Scrapper especially destroys Willbender. Hammer and Gyro offer lots of reflects against your GS2, GS5, SW3. Going into melee just makes it easier for all 3 grenades to hit instantly.

 

Willbender doesn't have enough evades, reflects or ranged defense in general for this attempt at a melee bruiser.

 

Warrior in melee has blocks and also evades tied into damage. Thief has evades and stealth.

Core Guard at least has on demand instant AoE blind, Aegis Protection and Stab.

Other good melee bruisers have a lot of reflects, evades, protection up-time and constant self healing for sustain like Weaver.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Ezrael.6859

[Poledra Val.1490]

Many people have already spoken on other issues Willbender has but i will focus on just the ones that come to mind at the moment since the beta is almost finished.

 

A quick afterthought as I forgot to mention it in my previous post but why doesent Willbender not have a trait that reduces cooldowns on there 4 new utilities?

 

Irrespective with the possible exception of Whirling light and even that is just about a pass for me the utilities are abysmally inadequate and underwelming in every respect of the game.

 

In addition the new Willbender elite skill and im sorry to say this is an absolute embaressement, the elite is just a giant copy paste from the Super Adventure Box elite......a little imagination here would not go astray because once again the elite everyone will use by a country mile will still be Renewed Focus (an elite created almost 9 years ago).

 

Please Anet try to redesign this so we could at least have 2 good elites on this profession.

 

The traits on Willbender is arguably one of the most unimaginative I have seen. 90% of them are basically a carbon copy of other traits renamed and rehashed for willbender. The minor traits are so woeful, far to much take and so little give. This is a great opportunity to make something unique so i am glad this is just the beta iteration at least.

 

All in all Willbender is arguably the worst new spec I have seen in 9 years playing guild wars 2 for Guardian. It needs a major overhaul in every respect accross the board, damage/sustain/traits for it to be remotely relevant in any part of the game, PvP/PvE/WvW respectively.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Poledra Val.1490

[Ezrael.6859]

Lethal Tempo is such a poor trait and poorly balanced compared to what other specs have available, even worse when those specs are ranged.

 

5 hits needed to gain one stack during short duration 6s Virtue stance uptime windows.

To gain 15% (6s) to 25% (4s) damage bonuses...

All in the danger of melee if you want any chance as a Guardian to make 5 hits frequently.

 

Compared to say, DH getting +5-15% just for being at the safety of range... you get more bonus for being further away and safer!

+15% for 10 seconds from F1 while applying Burn and Cripple every second, having someone tethered for a pull if needed.

+10% you can take against those Crippled enemies or passively cripple Passive Justice.

Plus you take can Unscathed Contender an open a fight with +20% damage bonus because you always have Aegis passive ready.

Radiance gives +10% for having Resolution. And if you took it, Inspiring Virtue is another +10%.

 

All of this comes together to mean a DH with Radiance, Virtues, Dragonhunter can push F1 and gain +80% damage bonus and +35% crit chance at 1200 range for True Shot... and hit standard heavy armour for 15k in 1.5 seconds using two skills.

Oh, and F1 is unblockable and reveals your target for 6s.

 

Even worse if you add in Trapper Runes and consider this could all come out of stealth.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Ezrael.6859

[UncleSwag.7930]

I've been a guardian main for over 7 years now, so I'm always hyped to get a new elite spec, but this one was really a let down, to put it nicely... I know it's in beta so I want to hold judgment, but I didn't think the other guardian specializations were this terrible in the previous betas. It seems to lack the fundamental consideration of core guardian traits and specializations entirely. I'll try to keep my review from being too bias since I know I really wanted synergy for burn guardian, but I know that's not always going to be a focus from the crew working on these...

~~ Virtues...

I have a bigger problem with how it's proc'd. The fact that the passives require activation ruins many mechanics in multiple specializations and makes them... well... not passives... The fact that they're gated behind animations exacerbates this issue by making it harder to maintain uptime of the passive in combat. I would ignore that fact as I can see why activating virtues for mobility is fun, but the fact that only a single passive can be proc'd at once is a big problem. It means you fundamentally cannot make a viable burn guardian build out of this elite spec due to how dependent on consistent passive procs it is (however, in concept, it would great for this spec since it's also focused on procing the passive burns from Virtue of Justice through hits per second.). The only reason I bring up burn guardian is due to how many traits bolster Virtue of Justice and cater towards burn based dps builds, but this change ruins those. 

 

~~ Traits...

Another thing I don't like is the negative effects of the first major traits in Willbender. While I don't mind the concept of a give-take trait, what they give is so underwhelming that it leaves the player with little reason to take them at all.

-Boon Pact gives +16% boon duration at the expense of outgoing boons reduced by 50%, but it's too steep for anyone outside of pvp to ever want to take. It's the "i'm not a team player trait" that really doesn't serve as much of a boon for the player considering the consequence. It kinda spits in the face of the concept of a Guardian, but I'll assume that It's meant to be a selfish specialization since the rest of it also reads that way (this also means that anyone running this cannot run a support build; we're down two playstyle options now with this spec!). 

-Power for Power reads more like how I would expect both of the others, I can't complain about it. When you build for dps, you're always doing it at the consequence of sustain, so this just exaggerates that with a nice power buff (I like it).

-Conceited Curate is also kinda bad. Most people who build their guardian for healing will not want it for greedy reasons and if they do, they won't want a selfish elite dps specialization. This must be another PvP trait?

 

-The passive movement speed from Righteous Sprint is a welcome sight to guardian since they've never had a trait or signet that offered this. The fact that it's a minor that forces it on you while offer so little else is a bit disappointing, though. I would rather see it offer something like "removes movement impairing conditions when activating a virtue" to promote mobility instead of the additional swiftness that's really a mild concern when you have that extra 25% move speed from the trait already... 

 

The second row of major traits offer, what seemed to me at least, a more sensible selection than the first majors did. However...

-Restorative Virtues seems like something that's a need for this specialization considering the passives durations are nerfed into the ground. This is the only trait that makes any of the passive altering traits remotely redeemable.

-Holy Reckoning was very weak in practice (especially considering this is a selfish specialization). The healing is minimal considering the uptime on these virtues and the fact that we lost our permanent passive Virtue of Resolve. 

-Vanguard Tactics reads as is... It's really underwhelming in PVE like most of this specialization but it offers some fun consideration of shadow stepping, even if there are very few shadow steps worth taking in a single build of guardian even in pvp. 

 

-Lethal Tempo. I like it. I like that lethal tempo procs when the passives proc, this would've been fun synergy with a burn guardian using Permeating Wrath and Zealous Scepter (even if it does give bonus damage exclusively to power as most dps builds are somewhat hybridized with some physical damage). My problem with it is the fact that it's so easy to stack that it's completely ignorable for the most part. It also does the same thing as Inspiring Virtue (10% damage increase after activating a virtue, 6s). Seems kind of unfortunate to have a dps selling point of an elite specialization doing the same thing as another trait already. 

 

Onto the grandmaster traits... 

-Phoenix Protocol was really fun to play with. It was fun to go to the pvp lobby and hit all the golems and watch me get a lot of alacrity even with such low duration. The fact that it's selfish and only gives it to the guardian is really unfortunate. Especially considering that most dps builds would rather proc burns when wasting their burst skills to really make use of those hit-per-second scenarios in pve, I suppose this is also meant for pvp? However jumping into a group of enemies to try to get alacrity sounds very self destructive and not a good idea... I don't see anyone taking this trait ever to be honest. Selfish alacrity is a weird concept...

-Tyrant's Momentum almost redeemed this spec for burn guardian, but not quite. It still leaves an empty section in a rotation that leaves too much down time considering the low damage output when trying to burst enemies down while you have Justice's buff. This was the only clear choice for these in my opinion, even for power dps due to the obvious buff to Lethal Tempo. 

-Deathless Courage (I read this and cried because I knew it would be so fun to do with a lot of enemies in a dungeon on a burn guardian, but it can't be used while Justice is active...) is only useful when you know something will die, be it you or an enemy to allow you to proc boons. This looks like it was meant as measure to blast people in downstate in pvp, because it wouldn't see much use anywhere else. I would've liked to see this buff applied to allies, but I understand that could break WvW. 

 

~~ Sword Skills...

The skills on sword are just terrible. I see no reason to take sword offhand unless you're going full dps glass cannon and just want an offhand that isn't torch... neither skills seem to really give any character to the offhand. I couldn't be more disappointed unless they literally did only damage.

 

~~ Utility Skills...

The utility skills are SOOOO boring. I really felt like the decision of whether or not to run these was made up for me. They look like they would have good synergy with the high hit-per-second nature of the current state of the Virtue passives, but in light of the functionality and inherently selfish nature of the virtues, that's really easy to overlook. Also, I like CC, but this is a LOT of CC (haha). I feel like something more original could have been done and it was a lost opportunity. I did enjoy Reversal of Fortune, though. It reminds me of A.E.D. on engineer, but with charges. I could see potentially using this in hard-hitting boss fights in a lot of places in the game. 

 

~~ My Recommendation(s)...

To be honest, I don't like making recommendations on specific changes because I feel like there are a million ways to go about making a fun specialization that just works, so I'll spare details. Although, I do feel the need to say that the passive effects being removed from the virtues needs has to be changed. It ruins too many traits and over complicates a lot of details regarding how the player should expect the abilities to function. I would recommend splitting the current virtue buffs that are acting as the passives from the old passives. Give the guardian the old passives as they used to function and make the specialization's virtue actives just a buff that does the same thing. A perk to the specialization could even be "maintain your virtue passives even after activating the virtue." 

~~ Tidbits

I would kind of like to know who designed this spec. It doesn't at all feel like the rest of guardian, nor the other specializations. The amount of care and attention to detail is so far beyond par that I really felt like typing this much. I wouldn't type something like this for any of the other classes. This one just felt so bad in it's current state. I really hope some big changes are done to it before End of Dragons' release because it's seriously put to shame on multiple fronts when compared to previous releases. In it's current state, I would recommend core guardian way before this to just about anyone wanting any type of build. I would hate to see this specialization being regarded as someone you'd want to kick from a group. I would rather see the team put more care and attention to detail into the specs even if it means delaying a release. I love the previous specs in their own way so much, I'd like to love this one just as much. I can't wait to see how it gets finalized! Take your time!!

 

~ Hopefully my wording gets my point across and isn't too vague, I feel like I could've written a book. Thanks for reading! :)

[Ellsy.6780]

From another Guard main & lover of all things Justice, Courage, & Resolve.

I want to start off with a few things I liked:

The amount of mobility skills is insane. I like the animation for Courage. I also like the idea of the elite. I like the martial arts animations... I want more please and thank you.

I like the idea of having the option of being the opposite of my usual self as the altruistic healer and supportive boon giver.


However,
I felt let down. I was hyped and then I actually was really bummed by what I found WB to be. I almost didn't log back onto one after the first day.

I found it to be lacking in its overall kit. With everything it has, it still just feels unrewarding to play. I can chase down targets. that's it...

This is supposed to change it up and feel like a new exciting class to play. I found that the core guard was just stronger.. In fact, the medi guard does just this with a few less gap closers and chases. Most of the traits that I used to get what I could out of it came from core guardian traitlines.

Here's what I'd like to see off the top of my head:
Most of my time on WB was spent in SPvP.

Damage
The damage is just not there like you'd expect for what this class is supposed to be. It needs some number adjustment.

Profession Mechanics
The action of throwing flames at the end of justice shouldn't be a cast time, or should at least be GREATLY reduced. In fact, I found a lot of the skills felt clunky because of the cast times. Resolve... I didn't really use it that much other than for movement.

Utilities
I ended up using the utilities one at a time while testing. However, I think with some reworks of traits/cast times/ damage, I might have used more of them. Rolling Light and Flash Combo were quite useful. Heel Crack was okay, but even as a stun I didn't feel it was as useful as the others due to the rest of the class's issues. Whirling Light was interesting, I think it needs a damage boost and to be a bit faster, but a good gap closer with some damage overall. I'd like to see a knockback utility.

I'd also like to see the elite have a tp... or something, but reduce the KD time, or maybe just a KB with a radius change or something. I like that can TP in with justice on it, but it's still SOOOO slow. It's an elite, make it niftier >.<


Traits
Damage:
I'm gonna say it. Someone's gonna get mad, but I'm doing it. I want more burns. Where are my burns? [Holy Reckoning: Willbender Flames inflict increased damage and heal you when they hit an enemy.] This is not enough. I'm selfish? Let the world burn... I don't wanna do it with a silly bow and traps, let me just lay flames at my feet and let my enemies suffer.

Support:
If I can't have a supportive role... I'd like to see some work on these traits. My beloved FB is gone from SPvP and I'm still stuck playing Core. It's been a REALLY long time. If I can't have support that's not core I'd at least like to see this thing have the option of becoming a disruptive brawler rather than a wannabe thief. I can see how just a few adjustments to some of the existing traits and utilities could allow that with some smashy smash and bashy bash and jumpy jumps.

I had more thoughts throughout the week, but honestly, I forgot to write it down.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Ellsy.6780
I fixed a typo.

[cat.8975]

9 hours ago, UncleSwag.7930 said:

It means you fundamentally cannot make a viable burn guardian build out of this elite spec due to how dependent on consistent passive procs it is (however, in concept, it would great for this spec since it's also focused on procing the passive burns from Virtue of Justice through hits per second.). The only reason I bring up burn guardian is due to how many traits bolster Virtue of Justice and cater towards burn based dps builds, but this change ruins those. 

This isn't true. With alacrity and the 15% cd reduction from the virtues line, you can maintain nearly 100% uptime on Justice. These more "active" passives are an interesting new approach to how the traits that boost them play out.

[UncleSwag.7930]

1 hour ago, cat.8975 said:

This isn't true. With alacrity and the 15% cd reduction from the virtues line, you can maintain nearly 100% uptime on Justice. These more "active" passives are an interesting new approach to how the traits that boost them play out.

In order to have high uptime of justice, it's required that you activate virtue of resolve. Only one virtue's passive can be activated at once in this specialization. Meaning no burns will be proc'd during your accumulation of alacrity, but you will lose hit/second skills and dps while trying to do so. It's not like you can't play burn guard, it just ends up sucking really bad (just like most builds that aren't power dps based in this spec). 

[cat.8975]

21 minutes ago, UncleSwag.7930 said:

In order to have high uptime of justice, it's required that you activate virtue of resolve. Only one virtue's passive can be activated at once in this specialization. Meaning no burns will be proc'd during your accumulation of alacrity, but you will lose hit/second skills and dps while trying to do so. It's not like you can't play burn guard, it just ends up sucking really bad (just like most builds that aren't power dps based in this spec). 

 I was referring to group content where someone else provides the alacrity. You definitely want to take the 2nd GM trait if you're running any sort of burn build in PvE for the extra Justice duration. In solo open world, most mobs will die quickly enough that it doesn't matter, but if you want to take on champs by yourself then you should probably gear up in full Cele.

[UncleSwag.7930]

1 hour ago, cat.8975 said:

 I was referring to group content where someone else provides the alacrity. You definitely want to take the 2nd GM trait if you're running any sort of burn build in PvE for the extra Justice duration. In solo open world, most mobs will die quickly enough that it doesn't matter, but if you want to take on champs by yourself then you should probably gear up in full Cele.

I've never heard of a build that doesn't function standalone... but even if you were to make a burn build that was only viable in party content with an alacrity source, you're still not going to be able to use your other virtues at all unless you're willing to have a dps drop like no other. None of this changes the fact that only one virtue can be active at a time and the huge consequences that has on all the traits regarding their passive effects. I can see this not being a gripe for someone who just likes open world casual content, but I don't think that's a valid target audience for an entire spec. 

Edited August 22, 2021 by UncleSwag.7930
Better wording

[Shin Ryu.5802]

tl;dr:  Improve the actual freedom of movement and action and allow skills to chain and flow more smoothly; it's the 20% of invested effort that will provide 80% of  results in improving willbender and addressing players' concerns.

The idea behind willbender is pretty solid:  A sort of relentless holy avenger who would have fit right in with the elite imperial punitive squad that hunted down and brought justice the forsworn elite imperial bodyguard Shiro Tagachi.  Which kinda begs the question, why not just call this elite spec, "avenger?"  But I digress...

Most of the complaints about this spec focus on how it feels underpowered and has low sustain except against weak trash mobs where outstanding performance actually matters the least.  Frankly, this would be forgivable in my eyes if willbender was just plain stupid fun to play, so what things in particular just aren't fun?

For the most part, it's the frustration of trying to play a high mobility spec based on rapid attacking that is frequently and inexplicably immobile and/or unable to attack.  It's cool that it can shadow step and otherwise rapidly advance upon an enemy in a variety of ways, but it's not fun to either be unable to move or unable to change up one's actions until the skill animation finishes channeling or the enemy interrupts it.  See the fire hydra about to drop a meteor on your head and you want to sidestep that?  Well, if you've committed to Whirling Light or Flash Combo and you've already used up your dodges evading its breath attack and trample while finding an opening, you'll just have to stand there and eat it.  And despite being an ostensibly high mobility spec, it really isn't any better than average at flanking or getting behind an enemy. 

So how can this basic shortcoming be improved?  Generally, remove or reconsider any mechanic that locks up the willbender's freedom of movement or action, such as long channel times or being fixed in place for the duration of a skill animation.  Since this is a variety of guardian that has given up its ability to simply stand still and take hits, the most sensible way to get around that would be to give it the option of not having to stand still and take hits. 

Specifically, first remove the awkward pause that occurs between shadowsteps and built-in attacks.  Rushing Justice already provides a pretty good telegraph that an attack is incoming; the character doesn't have to stop right in front of the target and shout, "♫ta-daaa~!" for a hot second to make it fair and balanced.  This also applies to unnecessarily awkward combos, like off hand sword skill Executioner's Calling (aka, "Stand Stand Still And Don't Do Anything So I Can Hit You Again Just a Little Bit Harder").

Second, allow skills to be more freely cancelled out of to allow more freedom of movement or for different skills to be activated.  Alternatively, this increased freedom of action and movement could be built into the skills themselves:  for example, Flash Combo could become Flash Retreat for the duration of its animation, allowing for a more fluid "hit and run" type of play.  Connecting with the first hit of off hand sword skill Executioner's Calling could trigger a shadowstep behind the target before immediately  chaining into the dual attack so they're not just standing in place asking to be smacked before the second attack goes off.  Having skills automatically move the character behind or around a target would also open up a world of opportunities beyond "crash into target, stand still and unleash a fixed combo."

Third, shorten up channeling times and time spent locked into a skill animation.  Heaven's Palm is perhaps the worst offender.  It's a highly situational cc skill with very low utility, but still requires placing a lock on both movement and action for over a full second.  During that time, there is an animation that openly advertises the character is completely open to attacks and interrupts, or that the tiny area of effect should be evacuated to avoid the minor inconvenience Heaven's Palm is about to inflict.  The Reversal of Fortune heal skill offends to a lesser degree; unlike the revenant's Consume Facet of Light or the warrior's Defiant Stance, willbender can't use any skills while this one channels--and it's not even as powerful as those other roughly analogous healing skills.

Finally, don't force the willbender to be locked standing still in one place while an attack skill is channeling; allow the player to still move freely.  Someone suggested allowing the course of Whirling Light to be controlled, and that's actually pretty brilliant.  Being able to walk around an enemy while performing Flash Combo might provide a decent situational alternative to having to cancel out of it entirely.  Even allowing the player to move while channeling Heaven's Palm would make that elite skill just a little bit more useful.

Sure, there are plenty of other much finer details and tweaks that could be made, and many people have already made a pretty compelling case for them.  However, I think the issue of being able to freely move and rapidly chain combos is a core component of this reimagining of guardian, it's the 20% of invested effort that will give them 80% of improvement results.  It'll help mitigate such common complaints as "too fragile" (allow it to move and avoid taking as much damage), "too underpowered" (shorten or eliminate pauses and gaps between skill execution so it hits more often, effectively increasing dps), and "feels too clunky" (eliminate barriers to being able to freely move and act at will).

Edited August 22, 2021 by Shin Ryu.5802

[cat.8975]

1 minute ago, UncleSwag.7930 said:

you're still not going to be able to use your other virtues at all unless you're willing to have a dps drop like no other.

That's part of what made it so unique to play though. You can choose to give up some of your burning output for a little bit if you need the f2/f3 survival, and you can still freely use the f2/f3 in conjunction with f1 for the mobility/boons they provide. All of those times in 100 CM where Ai would dash across the arena, I could just f2 + sword 2 + f1 and get right back to business. It felt great.

[UncleSwag.7930]

1 minute ago, cat.8975 said:

That's part of what made it so unique to play though. You can choose to give up some of your burning output for a little bit if you need the f2/f3 survival, and you can still freely use the f2/f3 in conjunction with f1 for the mobility/boons they provide.

That's why I say this is only viable as a power spec. Burn guardian is dependent on high attacks per second due to the nature of Justice's passive. What they've done is make all of the other virtues function the same way (give boons and activate when you strike a lot), but since there are a limited number of skills that allow you to get a lot of procs off like that, you would lose a substantial amount of dps when wasting high hit/second abilities (like whirling wrath and symbols) on your own sustain. This in addition to the fact that it requires activation that's gated by an animation that has inherently low hit per second just makes the rotations worse. Power builds are different since they can do the DPS without the justice passive being active, so it's a non-issue. However that's all this spec can do viably in it's current state. So what we've ended with is a selfish boon build for a power dps guardian... I think that's simply bad design, but again, that's just my opinion. I would kick anyone running this in a raid unless they outputted some nutty dps in its current state (which again, would only be if they were running power). 

[cat.8975]

5 minutes ago, UncleSwag.7930 said:

That's why I say this is only viable as a power spec. Burn guardian is dependent on high attacks per second due to the nature of Justice's passive. What they've done is make all of the other virtues function the same way (give boons and activate when you strike a lot), but since there are a limited number of skills that allow you to get a lot of procs off like that, you would lose a substantial amount of dps when wasting high hit/second abilities (like whirling wrath and symbols) on your own sustain. This in addition to the fact that it requires activation that's gated by an animation that has inherently low hit per second just makes the rotations worse. Power builds are different since they can do the DPS without the justice passive being active, so it's a non-issue. However that's all this spec can do viably in it's current state. So what we've ended with is a selfish boon build for a power dps guardian... I think that's simply bad design, but again, that's just my opinion. I would kick anyone running this in a raid unless they outputted some nutty dps in its current state (which again, would only be if they were running power). 

Is this kind of performance not good enough for you?
https://dps.report/OULn-20210820-204423_arriv
Also I didn't mean to press f2/f3 and stay in them for the full duration, I just meant that you can freely use them when F1 is off cd if you need to top yourself off or need some quick stability/aegis before using F1 again. It's a very minor dps loss when used that way, but if it's keeping you from downing, it's a dps gain.

[UncleSwag.7930]

11 minutes ago, cat.8975 said:

Is this kind of performance not good enough for you?
https://dps.report/OULn-20210820-204423_arriv
Also I didn't mean to press f2/f3 and stay in them for the full duration, I just meant that you can freely use them when F1 is off cd if you need to top yourself off or need some quick stability/aegis before using F1 again. It's a very minor dps loss when used that way, but if it's keeping you from downing, it's a dps gain.

Fair enough. I feel like that particular encounter is a best case scenario due to adds and the ability to time the break bars and encounters being as short as they are. I would be interested to see it in the final fight of shattered obsv as well. I would only say that the net dps gain is due to the outsourced alacrity. If you lose that, it's bad. Most people don't want a build that's dependent on others that much. 

[cat.8975]

6 minutes ago, UncleSwag.7930 said:

Fair enough. I feel like that particular encounter is a best case scenario due to adds and the ability to time the break bars and encounters being as short as they are. I would be interested to see it in the final fight of shattered obsv as well. I would only say that the net dps gain is due to the outsourced alacrity. If you lose that, it's bad. Most people don't want a build that's dependent on others that much. 

https://dps.report/oLnD-20210820-204819_arkk
https://dps.report/3sri-20210821-130353_arkk
https://dps.report/08Kh-20210820-172646_arkk
https://dps.report/6s5m-20210820-085640_arkk
https://dps.report/mxwg-20210819-225641_arkk
https://dps.report/ztVk-20210819-210234_arkk
https://dps.report/w3An-20210819-175630_arkk
https://dps.report/3frD-20210819-110525_arkk
https://dps.report/kMDv-20210819-034716_arkk
https://dps.report/e7RQ-20210818-093958_arkk
Can definitely do better than these too, as it takes a while (more than 4 days, at least) to master these fights on any given class. Fractals have an abundance of micro-optimization opportunities.

As far as dependency on others, it's really not that bad if alac drops here or there. Sure, it'll hurt a little more than other classes, but it's also not as if the Justice burns are your only source of damage in this build.

[Axl.8924]

Thats kinda disappointing didn't get any legit answers .

[Shin Ryu.5802]

tl;dr:  A few specific ideas for mitigating willbender's "clunkiness," and an invitation for others to propose their own.

I've mentioned before that a movement-based elite specialization really should have greater freedom of movement.  For a guardian that gave up most of its ability to stand still and take hits, this one spends a lot of time getting rooted in place when pressing an attack either channeling skills or waiting for a skill animation to run its course.  That's a common thread in many of these comments (including my previous observations); movements feel "clunky" and the option of not standing in place and taking hits while attacking doesn't seem to be adequately available.

One of the ideas I've previously offered is that of reworking skills to allow for faster channeling, easier cancelling into other skills, and fewer awkward pauses between them.  Here are another few specific ways to keep willbender from feeling like it's being pinned in place or committed to an action railroad:

Flash Combo:  Have it mechanically function more or less like the revenant's sword skill Relentless Assault, OR allow Repose to become available as a skill cancel rather than something which only becomes available when the condition of "if all attacks hit" is met.

Executioner's Calling:  Instead of having the character stand in place and hope the second much slower dual attack hits, have the first hit trigger a shadowstep behind the target for immediate delivery of the second attack.

Heaven's Palm:  Heaven forbid the brief and minor inconvenience that Heaven's Palm inflicts not be ostentatiously telegraphed for over a full second, during which the willbender can neither move nor act!  But seriously, at least allow this skill to chase the targeted foe.  It should also have a much shorter channeling time given how incredibly underpowered this is for an elite skill. 

There are plenty more ideas out there for adding more freedom of movement and de-clunkifying willbender.  For example, someone proposed being able to control the path of Whirling Light, which is beautifully simple and brilliant.  I honestly believe ideas along these lines are what will go the farthest toward mitigating willbender's current issues and making it more enjoyable to play, so I invite others to suggest their own so the devs will have the largest possible pool of ideas to draw from. 

[oscuro.9720]

On 8/20/2021 at 11:21 PM, Ghostkat.9580 said:

Wholeheartedly incorrect. That's not what the elite specializations are for.

The professions are like broad umbrella categories, within which there are different styles and subsets of play. You can think of them as "families,".

All Guardian specs should still play like they're part of the Guardian family, and just provide different options and flavours for how a Guardian can play. Therefore, it's important that no matter the elite spec, it still maintains a sense of class identity. It's not about being different for the sake of being different, it's about providing more options for that general category of play. There's no reason that we couldn't get another set of Guardian-like skills or a different elite skill. They could have been more fitting for the class identity. I don't see anyone whining that Firebrand's utility and elite skills are redundant to existing Core Guardian utility and elite skills, nor have I ever seen anyone say when Firebrand was introduced that if they wanted something that felt relevant to Guardian gameplay, they should just use Core Guardian skills instead. What an asinine thing to say...

You completely miss the point to Guardian's flames. Guardian is the "holy knight" that uses righteous magical flame to burn away the impure. It's thematically relevant to that. Flames on the martial arts moves, on the other hand, are more fitting for Elementalist the same way as in the video I posted, Xuan uses what is essentially a fire aura (or Focus 5 on Ele, "Fire Shield"). The Judgment move with its flaming uppercut is not the blue holy flame Guardian usually uses, but is a standard orange flame and is similar to a Shoryuken from Street Fighter much like how the Tatsumaki Senpukyaku (tornado kick) was also slapped on Guardian.

Nobody in their right mind would look at footage of Ken here with his flaming fists and feet and went "yeah that'd totally work on a Guardian, it's just non-standard holy fire,". People would look at that and, in the context of all the element-wielding that goes on in martial arts classes in MMORPGs and shounen anime, and would immediately see why Elementalist would be the better pick.

So just because Guardian uses flame moves doesn't automatically mean ALL flame-themed moves are appropriate for Guardian. Moves that fit the theme of a holy knight, and burn with some sort of righteous religious flame, and flames that resemble what you see in more shounen action stuff and fighting game archetypes, are mutually-exclusive concepts and aren't in the least bit interchangeable. You need to understand where the separation between the two is. Not all flames are equal.
 

 

You just called an opinion incorrect, and then said it’s incorrect because you have a different opinion that doesn’t even contradict my own, you just disagree on minor technicalities for reasons I cannot understand, since nothing you said is different from what I said. 
 

You say the e-spec design should fall under the broad category of “guardian”. You then suggest that elementalists should get martial arts style abilities and themes, which is not the theme elementalist has had throughout the entire game or in the in-game lore. Elementalists is a more traditional mage class that has glyphs and spells. It’s a caster. Distinctly not martial arts. Guardian in GW2 lore is defined as a soldier class that fights “wielding their magic in a more immediate, pragmatic manner than spellcasters.” (The wiki lore). The guardian uses magic in a melee fashion, much more befitting martial arts, etc. The elementalist is, again, a caster class. It is not a melee oriented class. It doesn’t have a single standard physical based auto attack (dagger is still using magic, just at a shorter range). 

 

Your preconceptions of what should be are based on anime you’ve watched and you want replicated in a game. They have no basing in the actual lore of the game (or are even contradictory to the lore). That does not mean you are right or wrong, but you act as if what you are saying is the word of god. You can, and I would heavily suggest you do, voice your opinion without providing feedback that is basically just “give this to ele instead” and calling everyone’s opinions wrong. If you want to have a discussion on why elementalist should have martial arts skills and willbender flames instead of guardian, I suggest you do so in a post because you are distracting from the point of this thread; gameplay feedback on the Willbender to help Anet improve the spec for launch. 

[Ragnarox.9601]

2 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

https://dps.report/oLnD-20210820-204819_arkk
https://dps.report/3sri-20210821-130353_arkk
https://dps.report/08Kh-20210820-172646_arkk
https://dps.report/6s5m-20210820-085640_arkk
https://dps.report/mxwg-20210819-225641_arkk
https://dps.report/ztVk-20210819-210234_arkk
https://dps.report/w3An-20210819-175630_arkk
https://dps.report/3frD-20210819-110525_arkk
https://dps.report/kMDv-20210819-034716_arkk
https://dps.report/e7RQ-20210818-093958_arkk
Can definitely do better than these too, as it takes a while (more than 4 days, at least) to master these fights on any given class. Fractals have an abundance of micro-optimization opportunities.

As far as dependency on others, it's really not that bad if alac drops here or there. Sure, it'll hurt a little more than other classes, but it's also not as if the Justice burns are your only source of damage in this build.

who cares about pve, every spec can be top in pve, this one sucks badly in wvw and pvp. 

[Heinel.6548]

Some people need their weeb cards revoked. 

 

In East Asian culture, flames aren't all necessarily tied to the elements. Flames can also be visualization of "Qi" which is spiritual energy, which guardians do command (ie. Spirit weapons). The flames Ken and Ryu use isn't elemental in nature. Neither of them are elementalists. The flame is their spirit. So both  Shoryuken and Tatsumaki Senpukyaku fits guardians just fine. Stop making a big deal out of nothing.

 

Some additional notes:

The guardians wielding holy flames is mostly a western construct, because of their religion. In East Asia, aside from having imported said religion, there isn't a concept of this God's fury holy flame. The willbender is actually very on point and consistent in its portrayal of the "spiritual flame." You can see this as when their virtues are active, they gain the aura on the hands. This is the same aura that revenants get when they channel a legend (obviously different color), which is also a spiritual echo. 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Heinel.6548