Willbender Feedback Thread

[Yngvi.3452]

finding it rather weak especially reversal of fortune... even getting attacked by groups no measurable heal.  Damage seems okay but sustain is really weak.  The kicks look cool but hard to pull off because of no cc abilities in the new stuff. Crashing Courage takes way to long to come back. 

[Sonork.2916]

WB flames don't do anything and may as well not exist as they currently are.  Even if they followed the player you're looking at 4-5 ticks of 15o-300(crit) dmg, which is so low it does not matter.  Sigil of Air has more of an impact than WB flames in terms of accomplishing anything.  Imagine having a sigil of air-like proc on every 5th attack.  It would be like 10x better than WB flames... Maybe more than 10 times cause the proc would just hit and not need to be stood in for all of the ticks. 

Anyways, my point is, WB flames are 100% worthless to the class.

[Puck.3697]

8 hours ago, Cynova.1236 said:

Anet should feel deeply ashamed and embarrassed by ever releasing or even thinking this travesty was anywhere near a good idea for an elite spec. Plenty more disappointment to come in EoD. This spec is the embodiment of what EoD has to offer. Just ridiculous.

Tbh.. every expansion has Winners and Losers where Elites are concerned.

This elite is effectively Herald.. a very successful Elite, the problem is its core functionality conflicts with it, the problem isnt the Elite. the problem is the Core needs work for this sorta elite to mesh realistically.

the specc is a LARGE amount better then what it was.

[Shin Ryu.5802]

As one of the many who tested willbender during the first beta, I agonized over it and really wanted it to work despite all its flaws and built-in contradictions.  I am pleased to say the biggest issues have been addressed:  The "highly mobile" guardian elite actually IS highly mobile; it is now possible to cancel out of just about every skill execution both by dodge-canceling or by activating a different skill, which just makes it play and feel sooo much better!  Being stuck in a committed skill animation and not even being able to dodge cancel to avoid getting a meteor to the face from a Veteran Fire Hydra wasn't a good feeling, but now it's possible to remain constantly in motion AND still apply constant pressure to enemies.  Willbender now actually feels like it's gained something in exchange for the virtue passives that it had to give up.  And it was actually fun!  For the first time since the August beta, I'm actually looking forward to running willbender builds on my guardian.

Looking at lingering complaints, some are still valid:  willbender isn't a heavy hitter, willbender flames are more ornamental than effective, virtues could stand to be a bit more accessible to offset their lost passives, etc.  I'm not particularly worried though.  Willbender was a clunky, depressing mess during its first beta outing, and now it's just plain stupid fun to play.  Yeah, it might benefit from a damage number or cooldown tweak here or there, but otherwise, slap a bow on it and call it good.

I'm actually impressed that Heaven's Palm is now a reasonably functional part of the willbender skillset.  It still has a long cast time that interrupts the rapid attack flow, but it's now much easier to pull off somehow.  That's good, as willbender is a bit light on cc.

Anything substantial to improve upon willbender without upsetting game balance?  Maybe give willbender the ability to strip or steal boons.  Guardians have never had that ability, but it would fit neatly within the willbender lore concept of relentless pursuit and takedown.

[flowdragon.8635]

Willbender is an excellent concept, I'm really hoping we can get it to a great state by the time End of Dragons rolls around. To me Willbender feels like it should be able to run circles around its opponents, but when I play with it, almost all of the attacks stop right at the opponent. F2 gives some of what I'm looking for, but it feels a little short range. Basically it feels really nice at chasing, skritt burglars for instance, but that's where most of the mobility is. It doesn't feel as smooth and fluid and mobile as dual dagger Elementalist, for example.. Dual dagger Elementalist has Fire 3 and Earth 3 for dashing through enemies, Air 4 for moving up to them and stopping at melee range, and on weaver it has Mudslide and Steam Surge too, both which can go through or to the opponent. Being able to get through and behind the opponent allows for smoother gameplay. Willbender currently feels like it chases down the opponent very well but then clunks into a relatively stationary stance. Sword 3 has a lot to do with this, I think it would function much better if you altered Sword 3 to allow movement as a Willbender at least, even if just being able to strafe. I'm aware the shield acts as a block and lessens the need for movement, but it stalls the flow of the Willbender's mobility. If you considered altering sword 2,4,5, f1, or flash combo to give some option for movement past the target like dual dagger elementalist, it will feel more like i think you are going for with a highly mobile character that can really move around the battlefield rather than 5 ways to get right up to the target that don't give much option for movement elsewhere. Another good function would be the ability to press one of the turn keys to do a 180 degree turn when using F2, that is one of the most effective methods of staying locked onto your opponent when moving through them (currently on dual dagger elementalist but not willbender).

 

With some added mobility beyond the target, like the fluidity of the dual dagger elementalist, it will be perfect. 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by flowdragon.8635
typo

[DoctorOverlord.8620]

I just tried the latest iteration of the Willbender in PvE and I like the changes.  The greater movement in combat makes it is much more fun to play.  Nicely done!  I was wondering if the F/Virtue keys would be difficult to use with the added movement, but it didn't take long to get used to incorporating them.  I was playing with another Willbender and we doing well enough staying up and killing mobs.

I'll try some solo play to see how the survivability is. I can't speak to PvP or WvW use of the profession - all I can say is that I think this is a big improvement from the prior version and enjoyable enough that I would like to keep playing it.  

 

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by DoctorOverlord.8620

[GuriGashi.5617]

Willbender from the PvP Perspective - 4th Beta
 

Virtues need to change completely. 

They need their passives back, as it creates insanely bad synergy with the core traits. Secondly they should no longer trigger on hits, but instead please make them trigger each tick. Losing instant cast and them effecting only you personally instead of 5 people is trade-off enough. Virtues right now have sadly 0 impact.

• F1 should do Strike Damage around you each tick (Similar to Vengeful Hammers in Dwarf Stance for Revenants).
• F2 should heal each tick, increase range slightly.
• F3 should grant its boons each tick.

 

The Grandmaster traits are sadly still extremely crippling instead of extremely rewarding.

• Deathless Courage needs to grant effects such as healing/damage on port skills, which would also have synergy with the Master trait Vanguard Tactics. Please expand on that „effect-on-ports“-idea (!). I believe it would also be easy to programm and in the best case the entire bottom line of traits within Willbender could have strong effects on ports. That alone could make the spec more impactful and survive longer. Minor trait could do strike damage and give quickness on port, Master is Vanguard Tacticts (please include Resistance to it‘s port effect, because the condition Weakness hits Willbender very hard) and Grandmaster could heal and grant Aegis on port.
• Tyrants Momentum doesn‘t offer any benefit with Lethal Tempo, if it lasts only 6 seconds. The trait requires longer Lethal Tempo duration for it to be benefitial.
• Phoenix Protocol is not viable in competitive play. Willbender would profit more from Quickness than Alacrity in general, since alot of Guardian skills such as Whirling Wrath (Greatsword 2) or Zealots Defense (Sword 3) are extremely clunky and have been for years. However trading off your Resolve heal for some boon wouldn’t ever be worth it.

 

Willbender needs alot more sustain - Physical Block Skill?

Daredevils have Shadow Arts/Stealth and 3 dodges, Heralds have 2 Heals, Staff as insanely defensive weapon & skills like Infuse Light. The spec dies insanely fast, because Willbender doesn‘t really have any high-value defensive traits/skills. One Physical Utility Skill (cough Repose) should for sure be a 3 second block that still allowes to attack while blocking. Allowing to continue being offensive also would mean you wouldn‘t need to program a new block animation.

 

Please rework Willbender Flame mechanic - turn them all into circles and increase their damage. Maybe make them follow your character.

I am really not sure who except NPC‘s would stand in that F2 Willbender Flame. I think this is self-explanatory. We need circles please.

 

Please turn the 5s Swiftness on Righteous Sprint into 3s of Superspeed.

It would be a great way to introduce Superspeed to Guardians without exploiting Rune of the Trapper, since it is the Guardian mobility spec after all. Swiftness really doesn‘t add anything to Willbender that Core Guardians don‘t already have in a Shout like „Advance“. Please give Willbenders access to some new Nike boots.

 

Heal Skill Reveral of Fortune feels very clunky - turn it into an 2 ammunition Evade instead.

Keep the 2 ammunitions, cooldown and healing modifiers, but remove the block requirement for the big heal and make it a 0,75s backwards dodge like Withdraw on Thief.

 

Conclusion.

Playing a spec that does barely 150K to 200K damage in a match when Heralds get somewhere between 350K and 500K per game, while they manage to actully survive won‘t make any PvP Player pick up Willbender after EoD releases. Not sure how the class plays in PvE, but I can say that for PvP Willbender is even a tier below Firebrand. I can’t see how this elite spec is supposed to compete with Heralds/Daredevils/Renegades/Nade Holos/Reapers or alot of the other new elite specs - there is not a single viable reason why anyone would pick Willbender over the other mentioned specs.

Every beta felt bad as a Guard main, not really feeling very hyped anymore.

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by GuriGashi.5617

[Pleione.2160]

Willbender is the most fun i have had playing pvp. It has above average mobility that can stick even to the more slippery daredevil and having a good burst that can down an enemy with a good rotation. I really like the ability to disengage a fight you may be losing and then easily reengage when getting aid.

So far willbender for my experience has been improved from the first beta.

The only cons i can see atm is that sword 4 feels slow for a finisher it would benefit from a faster animation or just make it a one big damage strike. Second is that the flames needs more significant damage.

Overall im enjoy playing willbender in pvp right now and with a few more adjustments can be an amazing elite spec.

[VergilDeZaniah.3295]

Just a quick remark right at the beginning of the beta.

 

Quick Retribution still feels terrible distance-wise: if I "dodge" 300 units back and the target moves, QR is totally useless as I will simply lunge in the air without touching anything.. Imho, the distance should be at least 450 to overcome the potential escape of the target.

 

Flowing Resolve now doesn't feel like movement. The range is barely longer than a dodge, and it feels slow.

 

Still not convinced that Zealot's Defense should stay that way when being a Willbender: it's supposed to be a moving spec, rooting yourself in place isn't really sticking to the concept. It should be like thief: the 3rd weapon skill should change according to the off-hand. If the Willbender has only one sword, make it Zealot's Defense, if they have two swords, make it a moving skill... maybe taking inspiration from Almora's skills?

[Exile.8160]

Still not there sadly. My take from a pvp view point.

Virtues:

Virtues need to be reworked. The synergy with non willbender traits is bad some dont even work (or update the tooltip proprely). Hitting 5 times in a 8 to 6 second span time (specially in pvp) feel really unrewarding theres bearly time to activate it once (since in pvp everyone is always moving) so the payoff is extremely unbalance.

The willbender flames struggle to hit anything always they basically do nothing. Tiny aoe with weak effects as a class feature is not great. 

 

Physical skills:

They are plane and weak sadly. Theres no reason to play the over Meditation skills. They offer no support or ways to keep you alive.

They despreadly need a trait just like the meditation skills have to even be consider over a meditations.

Also the heal skill doesnt work sometime again.

 

Traits:

Still need a lot of work specially the onces that have to do with the virtues the offer low payoff for activating a virtue passive ( since most of the time youll proc it once during a fight ) .

We also need a trait for physical skills!! And maybe sword offhand.

 

Damage:

Willbender doesnt have it. Off hand lacks it also.

Sustain:

It also has non.

Idk why an elite spec that was strip of all that made guard tanky still has to run around with 11k health, no dmg and low ways to heal themselves.

 

Animations:

A lot better than from beta 1 feels a bit more fluid. With a bit more polish they will be perfect. 

 

Conclusion:

Willbender needs more work on it than what it was done from beta 1 to 4.

 

Edit:

I would love to see a change to main hand sword #3 skill to better match the feel of willbender because for a mobile class to get rooted in place for that long is kinda counter productive.

Would also like to add that WB isnt all that mobile either. Waisting virtues for mobility is a lost of cooldown when you get to a fight.

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Exile.8160

[ollbirtan.2915]

Seems like anet again didn't listen to 1st beta feedback ----- willbender has ZERO synergy with core guardian traits. Z E R O. The "mobile assassin" concept is on paper only - You have no hit-disengage-hit potential, your chase potential is very limited (fun fact -  a harbringer will outrun you).
Also, the whole 'mobility' concept has NO practical application hence ALL of the guardian and WB skills are stationary AOE (symbols, wb flames etc). How are you supposed to do damage to a moving target? Whoever came up with the design idea of this spec succeeded in one thing - to completely bend my will in playing EOD as a guardian main. 

[DarkLancer.1902]

(beta 4 feedback)

Wow.  I was on the fence about this one, but playing it changed my mind.  It was obviously meant to be a strike damage beast, and it is, but it gets even more damage out of condi without even really trying.  Recovery is crap, but who needs it with sustain as good as this? 

[Kuya.6495]

So let's start with general impressions.

I liked the quality of life fixes to mobility as far as removing aftecasts go. The f1 skill now provides a lot of mobility and you can cancel the end animation with a weapon swap. It's now the main mobility skill in the whole spec. The teleport on the elite is also appreciated and the sword 5 now works smoothly when used for mobility. Thank you! In PVE specifically it seems that it's easy to upkeep 5 man alacrity if you use diviners which is nice. 

Now for the critiques: in general, i still have a hard time enjoying this elite spec. The impression I got was that this elite is meant to give the joy of movement akin to what thf and rev enjoys to guardians and I still feel it hasn't met that goal. Sure if I use up all my f3, f1, sword 5, and the elite all in a row, there is some mobility which... amounts to just using one 1200 range teleport. You seem to be scared of giving similar mobility to this spec for fear that it will displace thf in pvp and i feel this caution is making the spec suffer because you just can't do an elite spec as "thf or rev but worse".

Now for specifics.

In PVE:

1. You can give alacrity thanks to Phoenix protocol and battle presence but maintaining this and also doing respectable dps is such a massive chore it makes you not want to bother at all with the alacrity. Rev can provide alacrity with just the tap of a button and then just focus on the dps. Firebrand needs only but to tap the elite and the mantras to upkeep 100% quickness with practically no boon duration and full vipers. For this spec you NEED at least diviner trinkets and you NEED to hit the enemy and you NEED to NOT use other virtues otherwise you cancel out the alacrity effect. 

This is a problem because I think the idea is for willbenders to have fun using their virtues actively. And indeed, willbender is most fun when you use your virtues back to back. This is also why you gave us the restorative virtues trait. But if you use f3 to proc aegis to proc unscathed contender, you ruin the alacrity for the entire squad. If you weave in f1 for some dps, once again you ruin your alacrity uptime. If you have enough Boon duration you can use f2 until it fades and then quickly use f3 to proc aegis and then dip into f1 but then you have few precious seconds to use f2 again (good idea with the two charges btw) otherwise you spoil alacrity uptime. All of this is just taking into consideration the virtues. You ALSO need to think about weapon skills and utilities in between all of this. Honestly after a while I just wanted to be playing firebrand again. 

Suggestions: there's a number of things you can do here. You can make it so activating virtues no longer cancels the other virtues effects. This makes it so you no longer feel punished for using virtues but also makes it so you can provide alacrity in endgame content without feeling like you have to camp f2 the whole fight. This also has the effect of helping proc willbender flames more often which, so far, is hard to do in competitive environments because the flames cover such a small area that you usually don't even think or care about the flames. Alternatively, you could make Phoenix protocol give alacrity on any virtue instead of just resolve to solve this issue. You would have to modify battle presence to specifically allow alacrity on any virtue though and I don't know how complicated that might be.

2. The utilities. It still feels like you're better off taking signet, feel my wrath, spirit sword and MAYBE a physical skill. In PVE, in terms of dps builds it seems if you want a guardian to actually take anything other than the usual suspects you really need to make the physical utilities do more damage. They look great and are fun to use but the damage they do doesn't justify taking them and it seems like damage is supposed to be their main purpose. 

 

PVP:

General impression: I had such a hard time making this work in pvp.  Thanks to the damage increase on sword 4, you have more bite when you actually land it and thanks to the quality improvements on mobility it feels more fluid to play but it still plays like rev but bad. By that I mean you have a harder time catching up to enemies than a rev does and you have less sustain than a power rev does.  Let's take it step by step.

1. Physical skills: once again, they look nice but there's just no reason to take these over say meditations. And why would you? Meditations when traited do damage, healing and condi cleanse. Physical skills? They do damage and not very much of it. I'm not asking you to make Physical skills meditations 2.0 but if I want to consider not using meditations the Physical skills need to do a lot more damage to be worth taking. Especially flash combo and whirling light.  I ended up only using the rolling light for the stun break and cc.

  I tried to use the elite heaven's palm and after a while I just gave up and went back to using renewed focus. The elite just doesn't land because it's highly telegraphed. Back in beta 1 I used to use it with judge's intervention and I had success using it but I had to blow a utility to make it work but it worked because the 1200 range from judge's intervention allowed me to use it out of the enemy's line of sight. This time you gave it a port which is nice but at 600 range you still literally have to use it right on the enemies face. Now I feel bad about using it with judge's intervention since the skill already has a port. The damage on the elite, like the other physical skills isn't very good, you could at least raise the range on the port now to make it more impactful. Oh and the heal physical skill? I don't understand why it's so bad. It feels like bad shelter. Sometimes it doesn't seem to activate and the feedback you get so you can tell you're still blocking or not isn't there. I imagine your enemy also can't tell if you've used it. 

Suggestion: please consider raising damage on physical skills all across the board, especially whirling light and flash combo. Please raise the range on heaven's palm to say about 900. I don't think we need more damage on sword off hand if you raise damage on at least some physical skills to be able to put down a good damage spike similar to what power rev can do. Additionally consider adding cc on flash combo and whirling light. Perhaps immobilize on flash combo and cripple on whirling light. The idea is that you can use these skills to set up sword 4 as well in addition to doing some respectable damage on their own. Imagine how fun it would be to use flash combo>repose>sword 5>sword 4. 

Also, I'm not sure what to do with the heal skill. You're trying to make it a reactive heal that rewards you for using it right before an enemy attacks but it doesn't seem to work like that right now. Maybe instead of an actual block, just make it so you take 0 damage from all sources and if you are attacked the heal activates (but make sure the "invulnerability" lasts until they heal actually finishes). In fact, get rid of the two charges if you want. I'll settle for single use if it actually worked and you raise the healing on it. The idea is that shelter blocks but can be prevented with unblockable attacks but heals regardless and reversal of fortune only heals if you are attacked but makes you immune to damage during its duration regardless of whether the enemy uses unblockables or not.

2. The mobility. It feels like you don't want to give this spec comparable mobility to thf and rev because you're afraid of how overpowered a thf with basically the innate defensive kit of guardian would be. Unfortunately what happens is that willbenders end up having to take meditations for sustain because they can't use their mobility defensively. You could raise mobility and worry willbenders will still use meditations but honestly that's an issue with meditations and not willbender. You just need to make Physical skills combo better with what willbender can do. Willbender needs damage and cc so the physical skills should complement that. The lack of real mobility on willbender just makes it not very fun to play. If you want willbender that works, just play power rev. It has more damage, more mobility and more sustain. 

The f1 range is fine now. Thank you for that. I can tolerate the range on f3 since it's purpose is more about crashing courage than anything else (but I would still appreciate you bumping it up to 900 so you can use it to disengage better). But the range on f2? Why? If the issue is worrying that giving too much range to f2 will make it hard for willbenders in pve to keep up alacrity since they need to hit the target, just make f2 stop at the target and keep running when no target is selected. Please put this back at 450 range like before. It honestly feels terrible to use in pvp right now. 

Again judge's intervention has 1200 range on a port. Why does willbender need short range on its ports and dashes when it's The Mobility Elite spec for guardian? Core guardian has longer range on its ports. Right now what little mobility you have is directed at catching your target (but you still lack enough means of keeping them from running away) but your mobility as it stands isn't good for disengaging. I've tried. It doesn't work. So since you can't disengage successfully on willbender you HAVE to take meditations or you are a goner. With mobility that can be used to disengage perhaps we can finally see a day when guardian isn't shoe horned into meditations (we've been at this since core).

Suggestion: please put flowing resolve back on 450 range. Raise range on heaven's palm and please raise range on either the dash from sword 5 or raise the range on the port at the end of sword 5. Even better! Do both! Right now it's a dash of 500 with a port of 100. Can we get a 600 dash with a 300 range port at the end?

Edit: also, can you change one of the utilities to be a ground target shadowstep? A good 1200 range shadowstep, even just one, would be enough to add massive sustain to willbender. Don't know what utility you can change to add this. If you can't modify any of them to add a 1200 port perhaps just give it to f3.

3. Sustain. This is related to everything else. To sustain you need meditations and you need meditations because you can't use your mobility to sustain (you surprisingly lack access to targeted ports with enough range to allow escape). Additionally the trait conceited curate runs into the same problem all willbender traits have in pvp: the willbender flames are easy to avoid because they are small, don't last very long, are removed when you use another virtue. This trait would make sense if it relied on symbols which you have plenty of access to on guardians, cover enough space and last long enough to help. I honestly wish you would get rid of willbender flames completely because I honestly don't see the point. Symbols are superior in every way and willbender flames are just bad symbols. And despite all this lack of sustain, you still don't do enough damage to match what a thf or a rev can do. And you might say "well we gave you flames so you can activate the virtue effects easier". We don't need the flames for that. All guardian weapons have symbols. And symbols actually synergize with other guardian traits and give boons. Willbender flames are unnecessary. 

Suggestions: if you increase range on f2, f3, sword 5 and maybe even raise the range on heaven's palm and make it targetable, you could conceivably use these skills to get away from the enemy focusing you down in pvp. Please consider reworking the willbender flames mechanic or just remove it and do something else with the minor traits. I would honestly prefer a trait that heals you as you do damage, heals you on shadowstep or heals you on physical utility skill activation. If you do the latter, it's just a matter of searing impact making physical skills inflict burning (now you got a reason to use them for burn builds beyond just whirling light) and power for power makes physical skills do more damage (this answers my previous suggestion of making physical skills do more damage).

Anyway, thank you for making the changes you've made thus far. The elite feels better this time even though it still falls short of expectations. Hopefully some of this feedback will be useful to you. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Kuya.6495

[TrOtskY.5927]

11 hours ago, Shin Ryu.5802 said:

I'm actually impressed that Heaven's Palm is now a reasonably functional part of the willbender skillset.  It still has a long cast time that interrupts the rapid attack flow, but it's now much easier to pull off somehow.  That's good, as willbender is a bit light on cc.

 

The problem with Heavens palm is that it totally misses on enemies that are walking away from you even without swiftness/superspeed. Its TERRIBLE in its current state.

 

TBH this beta has been REALLY disappointing for me having attempted tonnes of duels in the usual WvW spot, I was really hoping Willbender would get some chunky improvements but its barely feel much different from before, still has a useless elite skill, still has awful sustain,. F1 and Sword 4 are still terribly awful, you still cant lock people down and you have arguably the worst heal skill in the game that certainly doesnt reverse the fortune of interrupts.

If Willbender doesnt get significant improvements and DH continues to be the only (barely)viable form of power guardian out there where you still need to outplay your enemies like crazy to win while they just spam skills in your face.

 

Give more damage, give FASTER if not IMMEDIATE animations on the skills and stop kittening around and making this class feel like kitten to play. People told you what to fix but you left it almost the same as before. Get someone who knows how to play the game and especially pvp players to give you proper feedback and instructions here before you release to next beta cos it feels like none of the devs are good enough or experienced enough in PvP to develop PvP classes which WB is CLEARLY meant to be but utterly fails at!

Edited December 1, 2021 by TrOtskY.5927

[Shin Ryu.5802]

8 minutes ago, TrOtskY.5927 said:

The problem with Heavens palm is that it totally misses on enemies that are walking away from you even without swiftness/superspeed. Its TERRIBLE in its current state.

That's fair.  I'm just saying Heaven's Palm (and just about everything else about willbender) was actually a lot WORSE before.  Individual skills and certainly the virtues still need some tuning, but the overall feel of the willbender is much improved.  They're certainly on the right track, and I want to let them know I appreciate the progress that has been made.

I'll admit I'm primarily a PvE player, and willbender did a much better job of wrecking Veteran Fire Hydras and mobs of Forged than it did on the first outing.  It is now much more responsive to player control input, and chaining skills is much more fluid.  At this stage over two months out from release, I'm willing to settle for "huge step in the right direction."  It's definitely not perfect, but it's at least at a point where it can be fun to play.  It's  a huge step up from August's beta outing, where my response was, "what did guardian players ever do to deserve this?"  If it's at this stage in the development trajectory relative to where it started, I'm willing to have a little faith.

[Unicorn Luna.5204]

Well it's looking even better than before, definitely many steps in the right direction.

However there are some issues I wanted to point out:

Tooltip issue:
1) With enough traits regarding F2 I actually can't read the name of the F2 skill as it's stretched tall off screen and I don't appear to have any easy fix for this. Similarly the bottom end of the tooltip is cut off too but that's less of concern and is only slight. This is the build I'm using that's caused this:[&DQEQPy4qQRYmDwMBSAEAANgaAADhGgAAiRIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=]

Absolute resolve interactions:
1) When "absolute resolve" is traited the tooltip renames this effect to "absolute resolution" which is a slight inconsistency.

2) "Absolute resolution" in the F2 tooltip has a radius of 240 while "absolute resolve" has a radius of 600 - it is unclear as to why the Willbender loses 360 radius on this.

4) It's unclear if Absolute Resolve's "passive effect is stronger" positively effects Willbender F2 or if it affects Restorative Virtues or Phoenix Protocol traits.

5) With "absolute resolve" and "phoenix protocol" traited this includes "+25% healing" (on resolves passive) and "but you no longer heal" on willbenders resolve skill. Which means absolute resolve's healing boost isn't boosting anything - except for the core resolve that appears to remain shared by battle presence which is confusing. It would be nice if the 25% healing boost synergised with phoenix protocol in some way., for instance: Negating the "but you do not heal" aspect of phoenix protocol.

Battle Presence interactions
1) Despite F2 no longer having a passive heal the "Battle presence" trait still appears to share the passive heal of core resolve at least as far as buff icons are concerned. I've no idea if that's intended it's just unclear as to why this happens or if it's supposed to or what is the extent of that resolve icon on other players is, because:

2) The willbender tooltip for battle presence displays "Heal allies when your Resolve effect triggers" but it also displays the duration and healing effect of core resolve - which isn't active on willbender. It's unclear which is true, I'm guessing it's to do with the duration/heal being included because battle presence appears to still share the core resolve buff to other players.

3) Battle presence works with phoenix protocol - But there is no indication of this in the tooltips for either trait. Since we know virtues don't have passive effects and can generally translate passive effects to trigger effects, battle presence's effect can be assumed. It's just not, in my opinion, user friendly to have it presented like this.

Restorative Virtues
1) The alacrity on resolve activation is not displayed in the tooltip for resolve/F2.

Phoenix Protocol
1) The way this trait is written I found a little confusing. I'd recommend it reads more like: "When resolve triggers you no longer heal but instead gain regeneration and alacrity. Resolve has an increased duration." Just simply because "but you no longer heal." afterwards had me asking questions such as "If i no longer heal why does it give me regen?" until I remembered this has a heal on trigger without this trait.

Changes I love:
1) Love the removal of +- traits.
2) Love the changes to virtues movement. They all seem much more fluid and in terms of distance travelled: more even.
3) Love that the willbender flames damage is almost pointless, just need them for the triggers. Considering 2 virtues did no damage at all they've got a significant damage buff for willbender. =D
4) Love to zoom around on foot AS A GUARDIAN!!!!
5) Love that guardian can now do just about everything possible except for portals and minions.
6) Love dual wield swords even though I was hoping for dual wield shields somehow. 
7) Love that offhand sword seems more powerful than before - I've no idea if it actually is but it just feels it.
8 ) Love the changes to skills that previously locked me into animations.

Changes I'm indifferent to:
1) I'll probably still use stand your ground as a stun breaker but I will play around with the new one some more, it does look like a nice bit of damage to add on. I'm not fussed about the movement on this since I have terrible luck with skills that launch me backwards.

2) I'll probably still use the meditation heal. Reversal of fortunes heal is still too low even with the gamble heal going off and the damage negated - we can tank through so much damage with litany of wrath while attacking still and the only gamble is if you can reach a target before you go down.

3) Sword of justice will be used over willbender dps utilities however whirling light feels more practical to use than in the first beta.

4) I notice flash combo has comparable damage to sword of justice and whirling light. The benefit of flash combo being the secondary return shadowstep with blast finisher but I'm not keen to take a single target attack skill that's comparable in damage to aoe skills. If this was just a straight up shadowstep I'd probably make more use of it.

5) Still won't be using the elite anywhere I can think of.

Changes I hate:
1) I wanted more long hair options! Not saying the new hair options aren't cool. Just that I hate them. No jk, I don't have any changes I hate thus far. Thanks for giving us new hairs =D

Thanks Anet!

Edited December 2, 2021 by Nayaru.4716
corrections

[Clockless.2503]

It's definitely much-improved.  The virtue uptime is high enough that I don't feel the loss of passives, the offhand sword is a little better (though I have a lot more success with Scepter/Torch somehow, even on power builds).  I like having the choice to make a condi build even if the damage is quite a bit lower than I'd want.  You basically have options now, which feels a lot better even though everyone is going to end up doing the same things anyway.

The UI flames are great, I'd like it if they were a little more visible though, or maybe if they went *poof* a little when they ended.  I wanted to reduce the virtueless periods as much as possible, and between the faded effect and the flickering it was hard to see when one was ending.

Reversal of Fortune... works.  The utilities are okay, it's not like you are forced to use them all, they're just more options, and, except for Heel Crack, I think they all have their uses.

Flowing Resolve is an awkward little scoot.  I think it would work a lot better if it were a straight-up disengage like Roiling Light (double-tap to reengage?).  I never wanted to use it at all (and if I did I regretted it).   Swapping back-and-forth between Justice and Courage is all you really want to do right now.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Clockless.2503

[Tachenon.5270]

The more I played Willbender today, the more I kept switching things around until I very nearly had a plain old core Guardian. Couldn't keep it alive otherwise. I can't do a play by play scientific analysis, but as a mediocre non-competitive open world/story/jump in on events kind of PVE player, uh, I had more fun with the allegedly 'awful' Catalyst, which was not only more of a survivor, but actually managed to kill things while surviving. Even though I only half understood what the heck it was supposed to be doing most of the time. Clearly it needs to be nerfed! (That was a joke, devs, in case you're reading.) See also: Gunblade. I had fun playing it today, too. /e shocked face

 

Willbender, though... Aiee! Frustrating, aggravating, 'Oh, come on!' and an assortment of colorful metaphors which provided a great deal of amusement for my cat, but she's not the one who will be forking over the cash for EoD, so her opinion isn't, you know, valid. Or whatever. /e confused face

 

Thanks for reading!

[Kilandros.2098]

PvE Perspective:

 

Willbender is improved, but ultimately suffers because a mobile class cannot keep Willbender flames on a mobile target in any meaningful way.  Willbender flames need to be changed to be a simple proc condition on your character when the virtues are active; the small passive damage can exist as follow-up attacks akin to a watered down One Wolf Pack while the on-hit conditions just proc off your character from weapon and skill attacks.  You can keep a ground-based AoE for some type of aesthetic, but functionally the need to keep enemies in the small ground AoEs creates poor gameplay.

 

Here are my suggestions:

 

1: Willbender flames changed to be an on character proc condition rather than ground AoE.  This change by itself would improve the gameplay feel of the spec significantly.

 

2: Lean into the Shadowstep/Teleport aesthetic on our new movement abilities, particular F1.  Not only are teleports visually consistent with core guardian, but this would allow new Vanguard tactics to really run something other than Virtues to maintain Resolution. 

 

3: Reduce cast times/aftercasts of OF Sword.  OF Sword gameplay feels very clunky.  Sword 5 should be instant and 4 near instant.

 

4: Normalize ranges on Shadowsteps: They're all over the place.  Not everything needs to be 900 range, but certainly F1 and F3 could be.  Currently ranges are all over the place:

   

F1 = 800 / Change to 900

F2 = 450 / Fine

F3 = 600 / Change to 900

Sword 5 = 500 / Change to 600

 

[Makion.3457]

Anyone else thinks the healing animation on Charrs is uterly KITTEN? I hate that Charrs look like they are cowering in fear when they block instead of using a martial block for the healing animation, they could fix this just by placing both arms in a straight line like in the boxing defense instead of them crossing their arms. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Altion.9576

[Caid.4932]

I like the virtues. Absolute Resolve is very nice now. Animations are all in a much better place. Utilities are much improved though need more.

Think Rolling Light and Whirling Light are both pretty good primarily due to cooldown. Heal still feels undertuned, a trait that lowered its cooldown by 20% or whatever might push it back above other heals but otherwise cant see myself using it. Flash Combo doesn't offer enough over virtues to be worth taking. Elites kind of ok i guess. Heel Crack is pretty terrible.

Still think theres changes needed between resistance / cripple / chill access. The number of hits needed to proc virtues vs single targets and the remaining static damage stuff like sword 3 and willbender flames needs some attention too.

[Bosc.9452]

Still lacking and cannot compare to any of the other specs guardian has access to.
And still hate the name, willbreaker sounds much better.

General thoughts/fixes

WillBreaker Flames - Needs to attach to targets, stationary fields on a class thats meant to be mobile make no sense, standing in the flames should also benefit the guardian aswell such as clearing conditions and or applying vigor.

Rushing Justice - Does not apply "light Aura" from justice is blind

Radiance: Right-Hand Strength - Rename to Dual-Weilding strength and have the 20% recharge effect both main and offhand swords
Radiance: Lesser Signet of Wrath - internal cooldown on this should be reduced to 10secs to match Rushing Justice when spec'd willbreaker

Honor: Purity of Body -  Passive effect does not apply, needs to be changed to trigger on f2 and increased to 33%

Dodging - should apply the rolling light blind effect on start of a dodge

Sword 3 - needs to be changed when spec'd willbreaker at least, rooting a "mobile" class to the spot just doesnt work, should be able to move when using it

Utilites

Healing Skill - makes no sense if this spec is meant to be an offensive/always on the attack. would swap this to an instant heal/barrier. It seems if a stun/pull/daze is used that deals damage the heal does not go off, this makes the skill even more useless compared to shelter.
All the new utiltiy skills need to apply slow/cripple/chill.
Heel Crack - needs a to use the ammo system with 2 or 3 charges (and even so would probably still never trait it)
Rolling Light - this should be a disengage skill, increase the roll to 500 or add 2 charges to it and swap switfness to super speed, remove 2 conditions would help this alot, remove the followup attack.
Whirling Light - should break stuns and apply blind to targets or light aura to the guard
Heaven's Palm - Needs to be faster, when used on someone running they just move out of range, could do with applying a lesser version of the f3 crashing courage. Wouldn't might seeing it finish downed enemies or at least do 50% more damage to downed foes

Sword Offhand

Sword 4 - both initial attack and followup need to be sped up and initial attack should apply cripple

Sword 5 - The dash needs an evade added to it. the shadow step doesnt activate if there is nothing targeted or the target is out of range, it should activate anyway. Tooltip needs updating seems to be 500 (dash) + 100 (shadowstep), but the skill has the not inrange red line over 500 and between 600 while the target is in range.

[otto.5684]

PvE:

It ran much smoother this time. The changes to justice had huge impact on the experience. 

 

Off hand sword, still copy paste from rev off hand. Still a downgrade. It is still extremely disappointing. 

 

Again, was hoping WB encourages us not to run GS. To an extend running S/F + S/S worked much better, still no there. 

 

Virtues, I like justice, but no one is standing in this in pvp. I see what resolve is trying to do, but the evade window is way too small for any realistic counter-play. adding quarter second would make it far more useful. Courage is good, but CD in PvP is way too long, especially that it has no passive. This aint DH shield or FB tome. It should not have 50 sec CD. @Kilandros.2098had some really good suggestions for virtues.

 

Utilities, mostly the same. Whirling light seems to be the the trait to run + SoJ + Bane Signet. So... no change. Ohh, elite. Ya.. I think Rangar said it best, when he mentioned that Signet of Bane has 30 sec CD, 3 sec knockdown and 1,200 and yet no one uses it in PvP, and it is NOT AN ELITE SKILL. Again, this is mostly copy pasted of rev skill Call to Anguish, with 45 secs CD. Do you think I will give up on FmW in PvE or RF in PvP for this?!

 

Traits, I have no idea why the upper trait line has alacrity. Alacrity is PvE sustained dps boon. WB is an assassin archetype. Quickness makes sense. Alacrity does not, at all. Heck, if you give me 5 might that will be better. searing pact... look, the off hand sword has no condi application and we cannot even utilize the passive justice proc... so how about we remove this trait in favor of something that adds sustain? Vanguard tactics is more of PvP utility. It is just redundant with Indomitable courage. Deathless courage is a downgrade, even in PvP. 

 

Again, I strongly suggest adding bonus to swords damage, somewhere, to encourage running swords over GS. This at least could gives some diversity. It will be extremely disappointing if the PvE meta build ends up the same as DH, with the difference of one utility (WL instead of PB).

 

PvP:

We are still homeless rev. Theoretically, you do not want to run WB with valor/mediations. It just does not work, as WB provides no effective sustain or damage to compete with virtues, radiance or valor. So presumably we should go Radiance/virtues/WB, which emphasis WB strengths. However, there are tons of issues here.

 

Okay... OH sword. Look Anet, if you will stick with copy pasting rev off sword, can we do a full copy paste? We have been through this dance with rev, there is no need for repeating the same mistakes. Skill 4 still cannot hit kitten, cuz it has no range. Give it range. Skill 5, used to be 20 sec for rev too, then the chill was removed and CD reduced to 15 sec. Same here. Remove the slow and give it 15 secs CD. If you cannot be creative, at least copy what works.

 

With OH sword behind, the biggest issue is we cannot disengage. Courage has very limited range. Resolve is more of an in combat evade. We have no way to play hit and run like thief, rev, mesmer or ranger. Even engi can play hit and run better. Something has to change. Either give courage 1,200 range, or make one of the utilities long range disengage.

 

I think if you do that and fix OH sword, WB should be okayish in PvP. We still will have design conflict issues between ground AoE and mobility, but at least we have the mobility part working.

Overall, still not able to be a high mobility spec in PvP. Still highly redundant in PvE. Sadly, not much has changed since the first beta. At least, it  is fun to play in PvE now, primarily due to removal of justice after cast and increasing its range. 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by otto.5684

[Mervil.7461]

I'm still trying to figure this one out. I see potential here, but I have to agree that the Willbender Flames mechanic is much too weak, and pointless as is. I like the idea of having the Willbender Flames surround the player, doing damage/burning to foes nearby, in keeping with the mobility and "Imma gitchu" theme. I also agree there needs to be a bit more cc, and there REALLY ought to be access to cripple.

As I play with Willbender, I feel like Flash Combo could be utilized here. I shadowstep to a foe, and they get crippled with the attack. Then with Repose, I don't like the teleporting away from the fight. I'm in there to strike the foe down! What if Repose teleported you to a nearby foe to unleash the same fury as Flash Combo, and crippled them as well? Or gave you access to an AoE cripple? And then BAM Whirling Light! or Executioner's Calling!

Speaking of Whirling Light... where is that "lunge" that the skill says should happen?

But in addition to what has been said, I actually want to point out 2 nit-picky things that have really been bothering me:
How the heck does Absolute Resolve work with Phoenix Protocol? The tooltips show no boost to Flowing Resolve's regen or alacrity when Phoenix Protocol is traited with Absolute Resolve.

And then the sword 5 skill: I dash forward, and then shadowstep. I like the mechanic, but the red line under the skill that indicates when you're within range should be accurate! I am hitting targets even when the red line says i'm too far away.

That is all.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Mervil.7461

[kroof.5468]

Hey team - lots of feedback to go through, so my wishes are with you! 
Here is my overall reaction with Beta 4, followed by more detailed ideas/thoughts: [PVE]

General:   I really enjoy the improvements to the movement with the F skills, while still thinking that F2 could use just a bit more distance. The visual effects added to show off which Virtue passive you are currently using is a lovely touch. The Physical skills largely feel better to use. Though, I agree with many posts that the Heal is just not the best.  I also enjoy the Willbender flames as they are not meant to be big damage, but more so a vehicle to proc the passives.

                I enjoy most of the kit, however I find the trait changes to be unfortunate. As a Guardian of almost 10 years, I loved the idea of the Adept traits focusing the guardian into a specialized form of selfish play. From the years of slotting into the best-in-slot Firebrand, I was THRILLED to see some interesting design with the Adepts. I just felt they needed to be slightly stronger. The current changes, now, feel much weaker as the numerical increase has been reduced, and there are secondary affects that fall flat. I also highly recommend BURNING the "Searing Pact" trait and revert it back to the boon trait. Willbender is not conveying any sense of needing to be a condition spec -- Firebrand exists, and Willbender is just a candle in comparison to the bonfire of the previous POF Elite Spec. 

               As a whole -- good progress, but the traits need a bit more of a consistent idea. 

 

Specifics:  F1  "Rushing Justice" - Instead of Burn on first punch, apply Cripple (1s). 

                   F2 "Flowing Resolve" - Range increased from 450 ->500

                   F3 "Crashing Courage" - This was not applying the initial impact for me. [BUG]

Utilities 

                  "Reversal of Fortune" - Flip a condition into might... quickness? 

                  "Whirling Light" - Remove Weakness. Increase damage to compensate?  

                   "Heel Crack" - Add 4 or 5 second Weakness.  (Just an idea to make H.C more interesting)

Traits 

"Searing Pact" -> "Boon Pact" - Gain 300 Concentration. -50% Boon application to allies. Gain stacks of Unblockable when activating a Virtue. (2 stacks)
 

"Power for Power" - Gain +250 Power at cost of -200 Toughness. Gain Fury upon activating Rushing Justice. 

"Conceited Curate" - Gain 300(or more) Healing Power. -50% Ally Healing. Willbender Flames heal you. 

 

"Restorative Virtues"  - Return to "While a virtue is active, activating another virtue decreases the initial virtue's cooldown" while adding to it the new weapon cooldown aspect. 

Ex. "While a virtue is active, activating another virtue decreases the initial virtue's cooldown. Triggering a Virtue's passive effect reduces weapon ability cooldowns."

"Holy Reckoning" - Triggered Virtue passive effects grant might (12s) and quickness (2s) in addition to their bonuses. Willbender flames deal more damage. (+35%)

 

"Phoenix Protocol" - Willbender Flames & Flowing Resolve's passive effect grants you Alacrity. (1/2s W.F & 2s on Flowing Resolve).  The drawback of regen is not needed, as it's pretty weak. Tradeoffs would already be on Adept traits.

"Tyrant's Momentum" - Get rid of Lethal Tempo Duration Reduction. 

"Deathless Courage" - Get rid of Courage Duration Decrease (PvE/PvP). Maybe keep in WvW? 

Then, I would add it to where activating Crashing Courage would grant you 10 stacks of Unblockable. 

 

Top Line: Selfish boon uptime. Taking advantage of that "bodyguard" type selfishness. Granting some alacrity and cooldown reduction to trigger skills more often.

Middle Line: Assassin/Fighter line of dealing strong flat damage, while keeping strikes quick. 

Bottom Line: More self-sustain focus with healing, boons on shadowsteps, and of course the invuln on the F3. 

 

Hope this finds you all well, and once again -- good progress with beta 4. Might see me in other forums. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by kroof.5468