Virtuoso Feedback Thread [Merged]

[mortrialus.3062]

It'd be cool if we knew if feedback based changes were going to be made in time for the upcoming beta events or if they're all going to drop right before the expansion.

[Tseison.4659]

6 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

It'd be cool if we knew if feedback based changes were going to be made in time for the upcoming beta events or if they're all going to drop right before the expansion.

Seeing as the Beta Event #4 we’ll get to play all new elite specs + test out the Siege Turtle, I’m going to assume they would have made a few changes to the Virtuoso by now from our feedback and then once the final beta event is finished, they can do the “final touches” since they’ll have until February to do so. 
 

A part of me fears that from now until the fourth beta event, they probably haven’t made any changes and the virtuoso we’ll get to play will be the same one at the first event without the needed changes from our feedback. But who really knows.

[Leonidrex.5649]

8 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

It'd be cool if we knew if feedback based changes were going to be made in time for the upcoming beta events or if they're all going to drop right before the expansion.

they managed to nerf elite " as it did 40k dmg in pve " from panicked pvp feedback.
So I would assume they will be more then happy to nerf some more before release 😄

[Dastion.3106]

Why Is It Called Virtuoso/Bladesong?

ANet, please help me understand why you chose to call this Elite Spec "Virtuoso" and the "new" mechanic "Bladesong".  Other than the spec name and mechanic name there doesn't appear to actually be any music/song theme to their kit.  There isn't even some sort of base or trait support for bladesongs providing "lingering" effects which is the most basic type of music themed mechanic in MMOs there is.  You play against a Chronomancer and see time based magic, you play against a Mirage and see blur/mirage based magic.... you play against a Virtuoso playing his Bladesongs and you get.... mind daggers?

 

This is a first impression you're going to continue to receive a lot and hopefully something you care about design enough to address.

 

Blade'songs' Are Worse Than Original Shatters

All of the Bladesong effects are almost exactly the same as the default Shatter effects.  The only major difference is the resource that fuels the mechanic. You lose the ability to get Shatter effects with 0 resources (daze/distortion), you lose clones taking hits for you, and you lose the excellent low-clone scaling of Shatters.  For example, a 1 clone + Mesmer Mind Wrack deals 71% of a 3 clone Mind Wrack.  But F1 Bladesong deals 20% per blade and based on tooltips you need 3 Blades just to match the 1 Clone + Mesmer Mind Wrack.   And what do you get in exchange?  The ability to stock 5 resources instead of 3 + 1 free?

 

Besides some minor changes to targeting and delivery method this new mechanic just doesn't really deliver anything other than a cloneless version of shatter that scales poorly.

 

The Weapon

And finally, spec theme/mechanic aside... if you wanted to make a Mesmer who was all about daggers/blades everywhere then why didn't you at least let us dual wield them?  That's hardly an unaccepted practice for elite specs and Mesmers have never received 5 skills from one before.   This spec just seems like a handful of ideas glued together with no thought for theme or overall design.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Dastion.3106

[Tseison.4659]

48 minutes ago, Dastion.3106 said:

Why Is It Called Virtuoso/Bladesong?

ANet, please help me understand why you chose to call this Elite Spec "Virtuoso" and the "new"(see below) mechanic "Bladesong".  Other than the spec name and mechanic name there doesn't appear to actually be any music/song theme to their kit.  There isn't even some sort of base or trait support for bladesongs providing "lingering" effects which is the most basic type of music themed mechanic in MMOs there is.  It's like if you called a class "Necromancer" but didn't have any death or undead themed abilities or if the Chronomancer didn't have any time magic themed abilities.

 

The New Shatter Mechanic Seems Lazy

First off all of the Bladesong effects are almost exactly the same as the default Shatter effects.  The only real difference is that In the original shatter you always count as an illusion and can have up to 3 more, so minmum 1 point max 4.  With Bladesongs you now have a minimum of  0 points, a maximum of 5, and lose all of the other potential benefits/drawbacks of using clones to deliver the mechanic - of which I'd argue the benefits far away the drawbacks.

 

Not only is this not a new class mechanic, but you gave the elite spec & mechanic a music/song theme and failed to even bother to deliver anything about the spec that represents that.  You play against a Chronomancer and see time based magic, you play against a Mirage and see blur/mirage based magic.... you play against a Virtuoso playing his Bladesongs and you get.... mind daggers?

 

And finally, spec theme/mechanic aside... if you wanted to make a Mesmer who was all about daggers/blades everywhere then why didn't you at least let us dual wield them?  That's hardly an unaccepted practice for elite specs and Mesmers have never received 5 skills from one before.   This spec just seems like a handful of ideas glued together with no thought for theme or overall design.

 

I was asking the same question in regards to the chosen name and would've preferred it be called Bladedancer or something since the elite is HEAVILY inspired by telekinetically floating blades around the user. Additionally with that said, the Utility "Types" should've been named Blades or something else. Psionics branch off to many different things and don't have a particular focus, which I feel for most if not all of our utilities are mainly just manifesting Telekinetic Blades/Swords. I definitely think that was a missed opportunity to give a variety of psionics that didn't just dealt damage and covered all groups from: DPS/CDPS/SUPPORT/UTILITY/CC etc..

 

Oh well, here's hoping they read our Feedback and deliver something good upon release.

[Levetty.1279]

A thought, I'd argue since the class is only going to get one illuionless spec' that maybe it should be able to have multiple builds (condi, power etc) problem is that it still has phantasms which are a far bigger problem then clones and they already messed up its usefulness in WvW by making it so projectile focused.

[Tseison.4659]

1 hour ago, Levetty.1279 said:

A thought, I'd argue since the class is only going to get one illuionless spec' that maybe it should be able to have multiple builds (condi, power etc) problem is that it still has phantasms which are a far bigger problem then clones and they already messed up its usefulness in WvW by making it so projectile focused.

I wouldn't mind that. I think the entire Mesmer Profession needs to be looked into again, from Core > Virtuoso in terms of identity and what each spec should focus on.

• Personally I think Core Mesmer should not be clone based and have it pay homage to the original Mesmer in Guild Wars 1 OR if that's not the case and if Core is going to be a more dps/burst with the shatters, I'd like the "Time Catches Up" trait to be baseline for clones.
• The Chronomancer should be Support/Boon focused. Wells need to go off at the Mesmers location and F1-F3 should be more supportive/heal/boon based "Shatters"/Skills.
• Mirage can still be the condition focused elite spec and should be the one that's clone focused. However, not necessarily having to shatter them and instead have the F skills be more like attacks that the Mirage can do. "What happens to the clones then if they aren't destroyed via F skills/Shatters?" They would just disappear when they're target dies.
• Then in terms of the Virtuoso, I get where they were going with the cloneless spec but it still feels clunky to me and the added "Psionics" seems out of place if it's mostly manifesting Blades. Stances would've been more fitting but anyways, in terms of what the Virtuosos focus, I'd agree that if it had a more hybrid approach I'd be "okay" with that. However, with that said, just viewing the skills and what's been presented to us, I think it's more meant to be a DPS+CC+Utility elite spec *shrugs*.

It just bothers me how every other profession got something new with their elite specs and then when it comes to us, we just got: A new F4 for Chronomancer, Mirage Cloak for Mirage which got nerfed to a 1 dodge in PvP/WvW while Thieves are running around with 3 endurance bars in DD, and then now with Virtuoso we're cloneless and our F4 is replaced with a block? Because you know, Blade Renewal on F4 would've made more sense but I'm sure we all get what I'm trying to say.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Tseison.4659

[mortrialus.3062]

14 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

A thought, I'd argue since the class is only going to get one illuionless spec' that maybe it should be able to have multiple builds (condi, power etc) problem is that it still has phantasms which are a far bigger problem then clones and they already messed up its usefulness in WvW by making it so projectile focused.

Phantasms are just normal weapon skills with fancy delivery systems.  I can't imagine anyone is still upset with phantasms after 3 years of nerfs.

 

Clones actually do have alot of clutter associated with them by design.

[Levetty.1279]

4 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Phantasms are just normal weapon skills with fancy delivery systems.  I can't imagine anyone is still upset with phantasms after 3 years of nerfs.

 

Clones actually do have alot of clutter associated with them by design.

Somehow I don't think you would be happy if Shades could be killed by auto attack cleave. 

[mortrialus.3062]

1 hour ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Somehow I don't think you would be happy if Shades could be killed by auto attack cleave. 

No idea what you're talking about.  A cloneless mesmer spec makes far more sense than a phantasmlesa spec in every regard.

[Aglaron.5487]

Here is my opinion on Virtuoso:

Blade Renewal
Wish it can add break stun function.

Rain of Swords
It would be better if the portal visual effect is placed higher on the z axis. It caused my fps dropped a bit when it appears.
Since it hits 'large area', I think increase the skill size from 240 to 360 would be more line in its description.

Thousand Cuts
I hope it can auto lock on targets when casts instead of using ground aiming.
And wish the look of summoned blades can be affected by legendary weapons.

Blades
It would be great if the blades from all sources can be affected by legendary weapons, including traits.

Thanks for reading. 🙂

Edited September 11, 2021 by Aglaron.5487

[Nezekan.2671]

On 9/3/2021 at 7:29 PM, Yoci.2481 said:

The shatters should keep their cast time (perhaps a bit shorter) and they should work while moving and perhaps without facing the target. But making them instant would make them too strong in melee because of the lack of counter play opportunity.

The issue is both the cast time and travel time. You don't even need to dodge them. The F1 can be avoided by just walking away. If you are not there when the project reaches its destination, it misses. Cast time is fine, but it needs to move much faster, we are talking bullet speeds, so you should never be able to dodge it by just walking. Regular dodges and similar abilities are fine though and cast time should provide that opportunity. But if you miss dodging during the cast time, it should hit you almost instantly.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Nezekan.2671

[Byaku.8273]

Quite a lot of things have been said already so I will mention only a couple issues regarding the design.

 

Bladesongs being instant, whiffing & to top it off projectiles probably already came up often enough. Dagger projectiles are slow and have no defensive cooldowns (while not even coming close to GS to replace it). The spec being squishy, easy to counterplay & interrupt and having mandatory utilities to pick (while there already are mandatory utilities on the core variant) are all things already addressed by many people. Block instead of distortion and an animation locking distortion as a must have utility skill ...
But the good things about the elite skill are ... nvm

sigh

 

My main issue is (although the other issues also make me not want to play this class): please remove confusion from this class as a whole. I'm pretty sure the initial designers picked confusion on mesmers on purpose, as this class was simply confusing. It was innovative having clones in a game which worked out very well as the core mechanic.

 

Virtuoso is the opposite of confusing. It's obvious, easy to read and simply boring. I mean iirc the new "Sword of Legends" MMORPG which I stumbled accross by accident had a class shooting daggers as well. Very innovative taking away the thing that made mesmer unique and in my opinion fun. Now you have a new Mesmer spec, which is only really useful in PvE (as just another damage dealer) while bringing nothing to the table except for reused animations & pretty purple blades.

 

Most my opinions are based on WvW & PvP. You might say "it's not the purpose of the spec, pick another one for this!" and you have a point. The issue is, the others - while being better - require an insane amount of skill while having little reward (take Condi Scourge or Core Necro: spam all your buttons and win). Power Mirage with 2 dodges was the only one having the capabilities of being dominant in these gamemodes. Even then it required a very high amount of skill to pay of, but at least it did.

 

Many people like the challenge of having to get good to really see results. Of course you still have the "HoT is so hard, make everything as easy as core Tyria again!" type of guys, but it is not all of your player base, so please take also the "tryhards" into consideration. In gamemodes like PvP or WvW you shouldn't have classes dominating purely by their initial design and overtuned stats instead of skill (which Condi Mirage was definitely part of, obnoxiously powerful, which it still kind of is, despite your "balancing").

 

Please make Power Mirage viable in PvP & WvW again by giving it the second dodge. I will have nothing to complain if I would have at least one good Power spec in the gamemodes I enjoy. Please fix the issues with Condi-Mirage's initial issues differently and make Power Mirage rise again. I know it doesn't belong here but still. Check "Jazz X Man" for an indepth analysis of the Spec and balance based on that instead of people crying in forums because they didn't take any time at all into figuring how to fight a Mirage and just spam all their buttons on their overtuned spec and complain afterwards.

 

Thank you!

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

19 hours ago, Byaku.8273 said:

Quite a lot of things have been said already so I will mention only a couple issues regarding the design.

 

Bladesongs being instant, whiffing & to top it off projectiles probably already came up often enough. Dagger projectiles are slow and have no defensive cooldowns (while not even coming close to GS to replace it). The spec being squishy, easy to counterplay & interrupt and having mandatory utilities to pick (while there already are mandatory utilities on the core variant) are all things already addressed by many people. Block instead of distortion and an animation locking distortion as a must have utility skill ...
But the good things about the elite skill are ... nvm

sigh

 

My main issue is (although the other issues also make me not want to play this class): please remove confusion from this class as a whole. I'm pretty sure the initial designers picked confusion on mesmers on purpose, as this class was simply confusing. It was innovative having clones in a game which worked out very well as the core mechanic.

 

Virtuoso is the opposite of confusing. It's obvious, easy to read and simply boring. I mean iirc the new "Sword of Legends" MMORPG which I stumbled accross by accident had a class shooting daggers as well. Very innovative taking away the thing that made mesmer unique and in my opinion fun. Now you have a new Mesmer spec, which is only really useful in PvE (as just another damage dealer) while bringing nothing to the table except for reused animations & pretty purple blades.

 

Most my opinions are based on WvW & PvP. You might say "it's not the purpose of the spec, pick another one for this!" and you have a point. The issue is, the others - while being better - require an insane amount of skill while having little reward (take Condi Scourge or Core Necro: spam all your buttons and win). Power Mirage with 2 dodges was the only one having the capabilities of being dominant in these gamemodes. Even then it required a very high amount of skill to pay of, but at least it did.

 

Many people like the challenge of having to get good to really see results. Of course you still have the "HoT is so hard, make everything as easy as core Tyria again!" type of guys, but it is not all of your player base, so please take also the "tryhards" into consideration. In gamemodes like PvP or WvW you shouldn't have classes dominating purely by their initial design and overtuned stats instead of skill (which Condi Mirage was definitely part of, obnoxiously powerful, which it still kind of is, despite your "balancing").

 

Please make Power Mirage viable in PvP & WvW again by giving it the second dodge. I will have nothing to complain if I would have at least one good Power spec in the gamemodes I enjoy. Please fix the issues with Condi-Mirage's initial issues differently and make Power Mirage rise again. I know it doesn't belong here but still. Check "Jazz X Man" for an indepth analysis of the Spec and balance based on that instead of people crying in forums because they didn't take any time at all into figuring how to fight a Mirage and just spam all their buttons on their overtuned spec and complain afterwards.

 

Thank you!

Buff power core not power mirage

[Ketharius.9018]

To preface I mostly only WvW Roam and Platinum PvP while I do dabble in Raids and Fractals rarely (PvE is too easy in GW2 and it puts me to sleep.) Mesmer is my favorite class and the reason why I keep coming back to GW2 and stay for long periods of time, because there is no other class in any other MMO that's like Mesmer. Chrono and Mirage were phenomenal additions to that fantasy, but unfortunately Virtuoso seems to have thrown away the identity of Mesmer and what makes it unique. Virtuoso was the solution to Mesmer's most glaring issues in Open World and Fractals, their lack of upfront/alpha damage. Though completely butchering the Mesmer fantasy and making Virtuoso feel like any old generic class from every other MMO in existence is NOT the price I wanted to pay as a lover of Mesmer just to fix the issues in Open World and Fractals. Anyone who mains Mesmer will know the pain, inconvenience, and headache that is playing Mesmer in Open World and Fractals with how fast everything dies. Virtuoso felt like I was playing a Warrior from range instead of Mesmer, it felt boring, it felt too basic and simple, it felt unrewarding and mindless to do DPS. Besides the removal of clones (why?????) which can be tolerated if everything else wasn't so poorly woven together, the incredibly long cast times on Virtuoso's Shatters were atrocious, and on top of that the highly telegraphed visuals alongside the cast times made it nearly impossible to hit good players in PvP.

Then you went ahead and made the entire Virtuoso kit be Projectiles??? Slow moving projectiles at that that also have the highly telegraphed visuals. It seems to me that this was an oversight that didn't look at how it would play out in PvP. The damage numbers were overtuned for the shatters and it seemed silly that the trade off for those high damage numbers was all that clunky, annoying, and infuriating to use set of shatters due to the reasons I previously mentioned. I do not want to be mathematically strong by sacrificing fun and enjoyment.

lol the Elite Skill is such a joke I'm not even going to rant about it, everything about it is terrible.

F4 as a block instead of Distortion is upsetting and doesn't make sense in this kit at all. Keep it as Distortion, Mesmer and now Virtuoso relies on it way too much.

Mesmers already don't have proper zerging builds besides being a boonstrip bot or as a zerg Driver/Commader as their only tolerated purposes, and even then you can only bring a 1 or 2 boonstrip Chronos and 1 diver Chrono.

Sword doesn't count as a blade skill? I understand you pigeon-hold yourself with how incredible Mesmer's sword is, but denying BLADE synergy with a bladed one handed sword is such a silly slap in the face to the fantasy of a blade expert Elite Specialization.

For the people who say "if you don't like it then you still have Chrono and Mirarge." Please, that's such an ignorant response given how much has been taken away from those Elite Specializations. Virtuoso gave none of it back, and as it stands there doesn't seem to be any indication that they'll be returning a lot of what they have taken away from Mesmer.

I'll end this with saying that I'm very upset that I will be playing Virtuoso is Open World and Fractals simply due to how convenient it will be, but I loath the idea of using such a sluggish and clunky version of Mesmer. I will not longer feel like a Mesmer if Virtuoso stays close to how it felt in the beta....

.... was Virtuoso designed for people who DON'T play Mesmer, for people who HATE Mesmer, and developed by people who also share those sentiments regarding Mesmer? That's how I feel about it as it is right now, and that's very disheartening. I don't like it, but it can be remedied.

((EDIT) GIVE BACK SECOND DODGE ON MIRAGE JFC, the fact that 1 dodge is still a thing makes me lose so much respect for ArenaNet's balance team.)

Edited September 15, 2021 by Ketharius.9018

[Yoci.2481]

Quote

Then you went ahead and made the entire Virtuoso kit be Projectiles??? Slow moving projectiles at that that also have the highly telegraphed visuals. It seems to me that this was an oversight that didn't look at how it would play out in PvP.

Hehehehe... yes... hehehe an oversight... *giggles madly*

[Levetty.1279]

On 9/11/2021 at 11:16 AM, mortrialus.3062 said:

No idea what you're talking about.  A cloneless mesmer spec makes far more sense than a phantasmlesa spec in every regard.

Virtuoso having no interaction with like half of Mesmer's core traits and a few skills shows how wrong you are.

[Levetty.1279]

8 hours ago, Ketharius.9018 said:

Virtuoso was the solution to Mesmer's most glaring issues in Open World and Fractals, their lack of upfront/alpha damage. Though completely butchering the Mesmer fantasy and making Virtuoso feel like any old generic class from every other MMO in existence is NOT the price I wanted to pay as a lover of Mesmer just to fix the issues in Open World and Fractals.

Mesmer hasn't been painful to play in Open World since the Phantasm rework. 

 

8 hours ago, Ketharius.9018 said:

 Then you went ahead and made the entire Virtuoso kit be Projectiles??? Slow moving projectiles at that that also have the highly telegraphed visuals. It seems to me that this was an oversight that didn't look at how it would play out in PvP. 

The main design focus of the spec was obviously designed to be bad at PvP, instead of other specs which were designed to cover areas the classes weren't good at or just to add fun new mechanics at to them and then seeing how they could fit that in to the different game modes. 

 

8 hours ago, Ketharius.9018 said:

.... was Virtuoso designed for people who DON'T play Mesmer, for people who HATE Mesmer, and developed by people who also share those sentiments regarding Mesmer? That's how I feel about it as it is right now, and that's very disheartening. I don't like it, but it can be remedied.

((EDIT) GIVE BACK SECOND DODGE ON MIRAGE JFC, the fact that 1 dodge is still a thing makes me lose so much respect for ArenaNet's balance team.)

Correct on both points.

[mortrialus.3062]

42 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Virtuoso having no interaction with like half of Mesmer's core traits and a few skills shows how wrong you are.

Dude what in the world are you talking about?  No one here is happy with Virtuoso's performance in the demo but like this is nonsense.   But you really think removing phantasms entirely and making them blades is more viable than reworking clones to do something else?  Because that's what I was responding to.

For starters the weapons that care most about illusions for their own sake are staff and scepter as those the only ones where clones for their own sake are a significant portion of damage.  Clones effectively do zero power damage.  And when spec'd virtuoso, the condition weapons should have their condition damage altered to makeup for not having clones. 

Second Sharper images is really the only trait that is significantly negatively impacted by Virtuoso turning clones into blades, again because of the way condition mesmer works and that should be adjusted.  Most illusions traits are designed around the phantasms.  You think Vicious Expressions 15% illusion bonus damage is designed around the 14 damage clones do?

Traits that spawn clones under conditions spawn blades.  

You seriously think literally half of mesmer traits just are just deactivated when virtuoso because they make clones do things?  Even though virtuoso sucks that is just straight up nonsense. 

I wanted a cloneless mesmer, but I also wanted it to be more sabotage orientated like a throwback to Guild Wars 1's mesmer, I didn't want them to make the most limp and vanilla magic caster ever designed. 

Again, the argument you're responding to is that a phantasmless elite spec would have been better than a clone spec.  And like, no.  A phantasmless spec simply wouldn't work.  For starters phantasms are every weapon's main damage attack.  Second clone skills all have a secondary effect that's the main draw of the skill like phase retreat's port, or decoy's stealth, or scepter block's block and torment counter.

[Levetty.1279]

3 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Dude what in the world are you talking about?  No one here is happy with Virtuoso's performance in the demo but like this is nonsense.   But you really think removing phantasms entirely and making them blades is more viable than reworking clones to do something else?  Because that's what I was responding to.

 

If you took Mesmer and just stopped every Phantasm summoning skill from doing anything  it would be in a better place then Virtuoso.

3 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Second Sharper images is really the only trait that is significantly negatively impacted by Virtuoso turning clones into blades, again because of the way condition mesmer works and that should be adjusted.  Most illusions traits are designed around the phantasms.  You think Vicious Expressions 15% illusion bonus damage is designed around the 14 damage clones do?

Traits that spawn clones under conditions spawn blades.  

How to say you don't actually play Mesmer without saying you don't actually play Mesmer.

Lets just ignore the inspiration trait line, Signet heal passive, ether feast bonus heal, traits that grant an effect on illusion summon not counting blades above 3 or not counting blades at all, blades not replacing themselves once you get to 5 so the traits will stop working even if they could count to 5. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Looking at other class trailers really disheartens me as a Mesmer main. Everyone has a notable dash, leap, or some sort of mobility and some of them are slotted on weapon skills which is much more valuable then on utility skills. Virtuoso literally will only be able to slot one blink as a mobility trait (which EVERY MESMER SPEC USES in competitive play) and no doubt will be a much higher CD then any of those e-specs mentioned above or be forced to play sword for that gimmick leap that was probably not intentional and watch ANET remove or nerf it somehow. 

 

Can we go back to just how much ANET despises Mesmer and giving mobility to so far every E-Spec we have seen a huge slap to the Mesmer community?

Edited September 15, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[mortrialus.3062]

4 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

How to say you don't actually play Mesmer without saying you don't actually play Mesmer.

https://i.imgur.com/B89vQay.png

Yeah ok kid
 

Also typically a plat 1-2 player with Knight of the Arena and Merciless Legend titles playing almost exclusively mesmer.

Edited September 16, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[Lethion.8745]

I don't want to sound too negative but I believe Virtuoso should return to drawing board. Replacing clones with blades is an awesome idea and I totally support that but the execution of ithe dea wasn't great. Elite Specs should come with advantages and disadvantages like Harbinger. Virtuoso's only advantages right now are it eliminates the pathing problem of clones for shatter skills and they have pottentional to burst for more damage if you charge them to full. On the other hand, they bring so many disadvantages that it makes you rather deal with pathing problem and take the less damage shatters. 

• You lose Distortion.
• You can't Shatter without facing the target.
• Cast time of shatters are way too long.
• Shatters can be blocked by projectile blocks.
• You lose access to many abilities and traits because they only work with regular illusions.
• You lose the misdirection from clones. 

 

Another issue is, Virtuoso plays EXACTLY the same as Core Power Shatter. On paper it looks like a lot of change is going on but when you put into practice, it doesn't feel like an Elite Spec because everything about the gameplay is same. Harbinger makes a  unmobile class a mobile one. Same for Willbender. It turns a bruisery class into a assasiny one. Virtuoso is just the same one-trick burster as the Core Shatter, only with handicaps. Someone in the forum shared an idea of Stances for stocked blades and it's a brilliant idea. Illusions were always mainly Shatter ammo and turning them into something else would be a very unique and refreshing playstyle. 

•  

 

[Tseison.4659]

3 hours ago, Lethion.8745 said:

I don't want to sound too negative but I believe Virtuoso should return to drawing board. Replacing clones with blades is an awesome idea and I totally support that but the execution of ithe dea wasn't great. Elite Specs should come with advantages and disadvantages like Harbinger. Virtuoso's only advantages right now are it eliminates the pathing problem of clones for shatter skills and they have pottentional to burst for more damage if you charge them to full. On the other hand, they bring so many disadvantages that it makes you rather deal with pathing problem and take the less damage shatters. 

• You lose Distortion.
• You can't Shatter without facing the target.
• Cast time of shatters are way too long.
• Shatters can be blocked by projectile blocks.
• You lose access to many abilities and traits because they only work with regular illusions.
• You lose the misdirection from clones. 

 

Another issue is, Virtuoso plays EXACTLY the same as Core Power Shatter. On paper it looks like a lot of change is going on but when you put into practice, it doesn't feel like an Elite Spec because everything about the gameplay is same. Harbinger makes a  unmobile class a mobile one. Same for Willbender. It turns a bruisery class into a assasiny one. Virtuoso is just the same one-trick burster as the Core Shatter, only with handicaps. Someone in the forum shared an idea of Stances for stocked blades and it's a brilliant idea. Illusions were always mainly Shatter ammo and turning them into something else would be a very unique and refreshing playstyle. 

•  

 

 

What I had mentioned in one of my feedbacks for the threads in regards to what you've listed off to I guess "change" some of the negatives is as followed:

• You lose Distortion. = Blade Renewal & Bladeturn Requiem should be switched.
• You can't Shatter without facing the target. = That would be an easy fix. If Engineers can throw grenades behind then I'm sure we can throw our bladesongs behind as well.
• Cast time of shatters are way too long. = I thought this would bother me and preferred instant cast, but when playing it more and noticing that you can move while casting them, I think they should be okay as more people get use to using them. However, I still agree that the cast time is slightly punishing.
• Shatters can be blocked by projectile blocks. = Have Bladesongs be unblockable by default or when at max stacks they become unblockable. Regardless, there's too many blocks and reflects out there and because Virtuoso relies heavy on the Bladesongs and stalking blades, they 100% should be unblockable.
• You lose access to many abilities and traits because they only work with regular illusions. = It has been mentioned by a lot of us and we're hoping they look back at core traits that affected illusions and have them work on Blades as well.
• You lose the misdirection from clones.  = As I've mentioned in a previous forum, not EVERY elite spec NEEDS to have clones. I'm still surprised it took this long to get a cloneless elite spec while every other profession had something completely unique/transformed about they're mechanic. Clones also should've been an elite spec mostly tied to the Mirage as thats a heavy misdirection elite spec, then have core be "Hex" / CC+Hybrid focused, Chrono be support focused and then Virtuoso could be the main DPS/Burst focused. Obviously this is subjective but clones have too much pathing issues when enemies die too fast or the clones die before they reach their target which is a dps loss. Atleast virtuoso is fixing that in the sense we get to hold onto our Blades aka "Illusions".

 

Additional notes, during the 1st Beta event when we got to test out the Virtuoso, literary the TWO things I liked about the Virtuoso was that it is Cloneless and the Distortion channel in Blade Renewal. However, I CANNOT justify that skill being a utility as it makes it mandatory and doesn’t leave us with many options left to choose from since in a WvW situation where I mainly did testing in, you NEED Blink and some form or Breakstun.

Other than those mentioned, it’s like you said, it plays essentially the same as a core Mesmer, but not as “bursty” as I have used the same core Mesmer build and rotation with the Virutoso and as always, I’m dropping people faster than I am on a Virtuoso. Though the causes for that were, Bladesongs dealing less damage, the slightest sidestep or moving behind a structure or beyond the skills range causes the Bladesongs to miss. Blocks, reflects, not being able to fire them off if enemy ends up not infront of you etc…

Don’t get me started on the “Psionics” that thematically aren’t Psionics to begin with and are literally just Manifesting the same Telekinetic Blades. Rain of Swords and Sword of Decimation will STILL be the skills that NEED to be combined. This is the second time we are going through this 💩, the first time being with the Mirage Advance and Illusionary Ambush. With those two Virtuoso skills combined since they literally ARE the same, we can get some form of mobility to take its place. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Tseison.4659
Added additional notes.

[tetrodoxin.2134]

2 hours ago, Lethion.8745 said:

I don't want to sound too negative but I believe Virtuoso should return to drawing board. Replacing clones with blades is an awesome idea and I totally support that but the execution of ithe dea wasn't great. Elite Specs should come with advantages and disadvantages like Harbinger. Virtuoso's only advantages right now are it eliminates the pathing problem of clones for shatter skills and they have pottentional to burst for more damage if you charge them to full. On the other hand, they bring so many disadvantages that it makes you rather deal with pathing problem and take the less damage shatters. 

• You lose Distortion.
• You can't Shatter without facing the target.
• Cast time of shatters are way too long.
• Shatters can be blocked by projectile blocks.
• You lose access to many abilities and traits because they only work with regular illusions.
• You lose the misdirection from clones. 

 

Another issue is, Virtuoso plays EXACTLY the same as Core Power Shatter. On paper it looks like a lot of change is going on but when you put into practice, it doesn't feel like an Elite Spec because everything about the gameplay is same. Harbinger makes a  unmobile class a mobile one. Same for Willbender. It turns a bruisery class into a assasiny one. Virtuoso is just the same one-trick burster as the Core Shatter, only with handicaps. Someone in the forum shared an idea of Stances for stocked blades and it's a brilliant idea. Illusions were always mainly Shatter ammo and turning them into something else would be a very unique and refreshing playstyle. 

•  

 

I very much agree with this. 
Was excited about Virtuoso and it had/has potential to dust off my Mesmer, although after the beta weekend my hopes were drastically lowered. The drawbacks (especially losing the misdirection part without any sort of compensation) make the Virtuoso a very slow and clunky class in my eyes.

When you balance a class around having clones for survivability for 9 years, any elite spec without clones will start to fall apart unless you compensate that somehow. Clones not only have a damage component (which got compensated with the blades, obviously), they also covered the survival aspect - especially in PvP/WvW.

The Aegis trait is a nice solution, but it already felt like I was forced to use it. There needs to be much better trait and skill synergy with the base Mesmer stuff to make Virtuoso work/fun to play.  I tried some Virtuoso PvP - any time I tried a (more or less) "full" Virtuoso spec - utilities, elite skill, dagger - I usually felt like a sitting duck without any cover. I'm not sure if that was intended. 

Curious if (and how) Anet reacts to all the feedback.
Virtuoso atm feels like a simplified base Mesmer with more drawbacks than benefits.

As i don't intend to only post negatives, here's what I liked:
- I do like the overall concept and style. The visuals and animations (besides the auto-attack air wiping, please update that) are wonderful. 
- Sword 3 rework for Virtuoso was a great idea. Virtuoso needs more of that!
- It's nice to finally have a proper onehanded power weapon for Mesmer.