Virtuoso Feedback Thread [Merged]

[Artyport.2084]

6 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

So far with virtuoso they took away something with super inferior replacement which is kind of  like just taking away. Your armor idea is interesting, but it’s kind of like chaos armor no?

Omg I’d love it if they got chaos armor while doing the skills. 
then a trait that gave toughness while chaos armor up

[Levetty.1279]

1 hour ago, Mik.3401 said:

Don’t give them ideas with taking away the phantasms lol 

At this point, how much worse could it really be?

[Artyport.2084]

5 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

At this point, how much worse could it really be?

Maybe this spec isn’t for you and you can keep your unconstructive negativity to yourself 

[Leonidrex.5649]

7 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

At this point, how much worse could it really be?

do you really wanna ask ?
My prediction, aegis trait and qickness on dodge will get nerfed ( hurr durr pvp hurr durr )
nothing new will be added
numbers will be changes so the dps is ~40k on a golem as thats what the spec is made for.
no other changes

[Kirrund.2654]

Please allow Bladesongs to be used without a target, and for untargetted Bladesongs to go their max distance in a straight line out of the character, instead of into the ground at your feat. This way, there is some counterplay to stealth and also you can aim them.

[VaileCearo.3819]

On 9/21/2021 at 1:39 PM, VaileCearo.3819 said:

So technically the virtuoso's trial period expired a while ago now but due to a bug in the launching of today's beta event for other elite specs I was able to play around with it again for about an hour before I was forced to re-update my client.

I just wanted to say that the trait lines though seem a little bit underwhelming despite the fact that they work. I feel like they don't do a lot to really push the theme of the spec which I think is kind of a missed opportunity. I prefer playing condi mesmer builds no matter what spec I'm using and the virtuoso seems to handle itself okay with that but not as well as I think it should. We've got bleed from the blade skills through the trait lines but since it is daggers we're using here I just can't help but feel that poison should also be an available condition for them and I really hope that's something that gets considered before the live release of EoD.

Additionally, while I appreciate the thematics of the Virtuoso being maintained in it's heal skill I just can't imagine why anyone would want to take that heal skill over something like Ether Feast since that one heals you per active clone and Virtuoso is able to have 5 active blades (which count as clones) as compared to all other mesmer specs being capped at a maximum of 3 clones which means it is capable of providing a very significant heal compared to other heal skills.

Over all, I'm happy to finally have a ranged elite spec for the Mesmer since I've always preferred playing it like a mage or a caster and generally since release have avoided playing mesmer in melee range as much as I possibly could. Even now I play a double staff mirage because to me that's more enjoyable than axe or sword, I like kiting enemies and killing them from afar rather than being up close and personal with them. That said though I feel like the Virtuoso is just missing that flavor that it's name and insinuated presentation otherwise seems to be advertising. I think it needs more mobility, at least just a little, and that it's traits could do more to push the theme instead of letting the skills carry it's theme all by themselves. 

EDIT:

I forgot to add that I also hope the fine folks at ArenaNet might be able to still go back and add dagger as an offhand option as well for the Virtuoso. I know that's kind of not the precedent set for adding one handed weapons to classes with elite specs however with everything else getting 2 handed weapons and major mechanic re-structures I still stand by the Virtuoso feeling a bit underwhelming. On top of that, the core thematic of the Virtuoso being a dagger wielding mesmer just feels like it needs dagger/dagger to be an option. Not having dagger/dagger as a gearing option for something like the Virtuoso just feels very wrong to me.

The hotfix for today's beta event didn't delete the Virtuoso I made earlier this morning though so I'm going to continue to play around with it and come up with more feedback I can then come back and provide. That said, I really hope ArenaNet sees and considers some of the feedback this spec has received. I know there's a lot of negativity here on this thread about it but there is a lot of valid feedback here all the same and I'd really hate to see End of Dragons launch with Virtuoso remaining what it is now, a missed opportunity.

So I'm trying the power variant of the spec now after trying several different things to try and make the condi variant feel good, spoiler alert, nothing I tried made condi virtuoso feel good. Condi Virtuoso is just straight up terrible, it's unusable. I'm one of those players who does all content solo and so I tend to judge a build by its ability to solo every single story element, group event, champion, and challenge without ever getting downed and as far as I can tell, that's just not possible with the condi Virtuoso. You'd have better results soloing everything with a core mesmer using absolutely no utilities it's so bad at it.

So what about the power variant? Well, it's a lot better than condi, I'll give it that. In fact I think power Virtuoso might actually be able to solo the entire story anyway but it doesn't excel at it. My double staff condi mirage kills things far faster than even the power virtuoso is able to and it kills mobs even faster thanks to my ability to spread condi's around multiple targets with ease. You would think that with all of the AoE available in the Virtuoso's kit that killing mobs wouldn't be an issue but apparently it is. I was doing a lot of my testing on the all veteran mobs that you can find in Drizzlewood where it's like 4-6 veterans all grouped together. For my mirage these mobs melt like ice cream in a hot tub and I'm able to take virtually no damage from them, for the virtuoso however, these mobs are an absolute struggle. The power version can actually kill these mobs without dying... usually, the condi version though just flops around like a wet noodle until it inevitably gets stuck on the bottom of a Dominion Charr's boot and repeatedly walked all over. Even still though, the power virtuoso still takes forever to take out the entire mob and regularly comes really close to getting downed due to the lack of self-peel to keep enemies off you while fighting from range, illusions to help manage agro, and the mobility needed to maintain distance from enemies. This combination of factors in my opinion either needs to be compensated somehow or they need to be mitigated or resolved. As the Virtuoso is right now, I can't see myself ever playing it at all. It's just not particularly good at anything whatsoever and it feels like it's lacking an identity even.

Anyway, that's my final bit of input for this spec. I still think it's a cool concept but it fails to be anything more than that in my opinion. I hope it receives a lot more love, development, and even change before EoD releases because I want so badly to love this spec, I want to want to main it. I want to be a Virtuoso main so badly but it's currently not even close to being good enough to make me actually care that it exists when I can just play my mirage and have a whole lot more fun and success.

Edited September 24, 2021 by VaileCearo.3819

[mortrialus.3062]

Virtuoso feels way more like what Eles wanted and were asking for for years, especially in PvP, than a mesmer spec. 

For years and years, Eles wanted a viable pure ranged DPS spec, something that could be a team fight carry in SPvP with it's damage after a the entire lifespan of the game's worth of their only truly great builds they have being either these hybrid things or support.

While the vibe on the forum was that mesmers either wanted a healer/bard spec, or a cloneless throwback to GW1's version of mesmer with heavy control and sabotage and mind games beyond just clones.

And then here comes Virtuoso that is like the very vanilla pure magical DPS class that Eles have wanted for PvP since the beginning of the game, that has none of the elements of sabotage and control that make mesmer mesmer, clones or not.  It's also not a bard or healer that was something a lot of mesmers also really wanted on this forum. 

[VaileCearo.3819]

4 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Virtuoso feels way more like what Eles wanted and were asking for for years, especially in PvP, than a mesmer spec. 

For years and years, Eles wanted a viable pure ranged DPS spec, something that could be a team fight carry in SPvP with it's damage after a the entire lifespan of the game's worth of their only truly great builds they have being either these hybrid things or support.

While the vibe on the forum was that mesmers either wanted a healer/bard spec, or a cloneless throwback to GW1's version of mesmer with heavy control and sabotage and mind games beyond just clones.

And then here comes Virtuoso that is like the very vanilla pure magical DPS class that Eles have wanted for PvP since the beginning of the game, that has none of the elements of sabotage and control that make mesmer mesmer, clones or not.  It's also not a bard or healer that was something a lot of mesmers also really wanted on this forum. 

I mean, there was a want for a ranged based spec for mesmer to bring it back in line with feeling like a mage and Virtuoso does do that but otherwise yeah, I completely agree. I like having illusions on mesmer personally but this spec doesn't seem to properly compensate their removal. I think the idea for this spec is to feel like a mesmer/thief cross class deal but I don't think it's properly delivering on that even.

[Leonidrex.5649]

6 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Virtuoso feels way more like what Eles wanted and were asking for for years, especially in PvP, than a mesmer spec. 

For years and years, Eles wanted a viable pure ranged DPS spec, something that could be a team fight carry in SPvP with it's damage after a the entire lifespan of the game's worth of their only truly great builds they have being either these hybrid things or support.

While the vibe on the forum was that mesmers either wanted a healer/bard spec, or a cloneless throwback to GW1's version of mesmer with heavy control and sabotage and mind games beyond just clones.

And then here comes Virtuoso that is like the very vanilla pure magical DPS class that Eles have wanted for PvP since the beginning of the game, that has none of the elements of sabotage and control that make mesmer mesmer, clones or not.  It's also not a bard or healer that was something a lot of mesmers also really wanted on this forum. 

honestly I just wanted something creative, for all I give a kitten it can be a clown throwing knives, as long as its well developed with cool ideas.

I would be down for bruiser that covers itself with phantasmal protection
With firebrand-esque bard spec
With curse focused gw1 mesmer or anything really
but what we have is just sad to look at, its like craving a burger and getting kitten mcdonaled cheese thats all squished and pathetic to look at.

[The Specimen.8973]

Virtuoso Feedback/Suggestions:

Overall I love the concept of this spec, the idea of being a cloneless mesmer has been really intriguing and this eSpec has so much potential, it just needs some more impact and identity to really feel unique and not just a meh core mesmer shatter spec that doesn't always match up to the core shatter builds we have as of present day. So here are my suggestions for improvement, I'm a mesmer main that plays power builds so I want this spec to really succeed in an area that I've wanted to be focused on in a mesmer eSpec for a long time.

Bladesongs (Shatters):
For the bladesongs as shown in first beta, here are my thoughts and suggestions for improvement:

• All Bladesongs:
- Need the cast times lowered to ¼ or at the most ½ second

- The bladesongs need to be quicker once fired and maybe have some better missile-lock I guess, cos they can be easy for enemy players to dodge or just strafe walk to avoid being hit by them. When shattering is so integral to the specs identity, they need to feel more rewarding, at least more rewarding than core mesmer shatter builds, which currently they do not.

- Need some sort of unblockable or need to no longer be classed as projectiles to help reduce the absolute ease of counter play against virtuoso (as us mesmer mains are already losing a lot with this specs ie. non-instantaeous shatters and no non-illusion shattering for f3 and f4 anymore)

- Bladesongs need to be able to be activated without a target.

• Bladesong Harmony:
- Needs more damage to feel more impactful, especially since the shatters have cast times now.

• Bladesong Sorrow:
- Honestly I think this Bladesong needs to be reworked to feel different especially since this is clearly a power heavy spec, so confusion doesn't exactly feel natural to this spec, I'd rather this not even be condi but maybe more damage scaled by how many boons a target has or at the very least go from confusion to bleeding damage, to try and synergise with what the condi trait line is trying to do.

• Bladesong Dissonance:
- This really could use being turned into a ½ sec stun per blade rather than a daze, which I feel is warranted when the bladesongs have cast times as well as needing time to actually travel and hit the target. Again, the player needs to feel rewarded for stocking blades and expending them with these channeled shatters, and when this spec lacks movement and really values targets being locked down for most of the current utilities, a stun f3 would synergise far more with the utilities this way.

• Bladesong Requiem:
- I don't love it nor do I hate it. The damage is a bit measly but that shouldn't be the focus anyway. The desire for f4 is a good defence shatter, and losing distortion hurts. But I do like how the Aegis is to synergise with the block traits so I'm a bit confused on how to feel about it. Honestly I love other people's suggestion to make blade renewal the f4 ability because its a distortion AND the blade stocking is integral to the spec, I feel like most people will almost feel forced to put blade renewal on their utilities bar because its so desirable however we also want to utilise our utils for condition cleanse/movement/stun breaks that we lack from this spec.

Drastic Suggestions for Bladesongs:
So here I want to include suggestions to give the virtuoso more of an identity that's a bit more game-changing for mesmer I guess, but maybe aren't feasible.

• All Bladesongs:
- Honestly the points from above still apply here.

- So I saw a suggestion on the forum which was making the bladesongs ground targets (this is a more drastic suggestion so maybe take it with a pinch of salt; but, it would create an even more definitive class identity for sure). Initially, I was like noooo, then after thinking about it I thought that it could actually bring a really unique playstyle to mesmer. The bladesongs would now shoot the stocked blades at a ground targeted location and burst in an explosion of AoE damage, which in turn could make them no longer count as piercing projectiles and more of an AoE explosion. Also, something like this would justify the current cast times and quite slow travel speed of the blades, while also feeling rewarding as long as you ground target correctly. It would obviously detract from the possible duelist role that anet were going for with virt but it would definitely be unique. Now each bladesong would then need the explosions to produce different effects whether that's cc or something a bit more creative for each. However, I have also tried to convert this into a possible grandmaster replacement for bloodsong, so you'll hear about that when I speak on the traits.

• Bladesong Harmony:
- Maybe rather than pure damage, give it an interesting mechanic that I've heard talked about where damage scales not only for how many blades are stocked up, but also by the amount of boons on the target, or just give them a bit of boon rip maybe. The bladesongs need something more because we no longer have illusions to distract enemies, no insta shatters, and others as previously mentioned, so there needs to be extra compensation for said losses to feel worth it.

• Bladesong Sorrow:
- Honestly, I would love to see this be turned into Bladesong Jeté or something like that. Jeté would become a 400-600 range ballet leap in a direction you choose (using a ground target similar to the one currently used with Thousand Cuts). As you move, the blades would be fired at your target or multiple targets (less damage than Harmony obviously). This would give us a bit of movement for gap closes, and if bladesongs become able to be used without a target (which they should) you can use it as movement to escape a lil bit. Just a bit of something that's more distinguishable for the Virt, rather than the usual confusion shatter. However, I've converted this suggestion into a possible utility replacement, which I feel would work far better than an f2 replacement.

- Or turn Sorrow into the boon scaled damage shatter/boon rip shatter, rather than the confusion. Condi shouldn't really be a thing in this spec, considering the general power feel everything else gives in this eSpec.

• Bladesong Dissonance:
- Honestly I really like the idea of stun on this, some harder cc would feel better for virt, seeing that it lacks the movement, it would need to be able to lock enemies down as much as possible to keep consistent damage. The spec is clearly a very selfish spec, quite similar to bladesworn, but bladesworn actually gives substantial reward so the selfishness is warranted, the virt needs to feel the same, otherwise bladesworn is just gonna do the selfish dps role better than virt and therefore leave virt to be abandoned as people would prefer a bladesworn dps.

• Bladesworn Requiem:
- Preferably, this could just be turned into Blade Renewal and I think everyone would love it so much more. Blades are so important to the specs identity so making the util that creates blades while also being a great defence skill, would be perfect for the f4 profession mechanic. It genuinely feels like it should be integrated into the class' primary mechanics.

- Or seeing that it's been reduced from the amazing distortion to now just an Aegis block, maybe make it so you and a number of allies within 300/600 range equal to the amount of stocked blades used, gain bladesong requiem's effects too. Just to maybe reduce the complete selfishness of the class a little bit, this would feel like a nice trade off for the loss of distortion.

Dagger:
Apart from already being annoyed cos the dual daggers opportunity has been missed (yet another eSpec where mesmer doesn't get a 5-skill weapon - should've gone with ranged spear used as a javelin, that would've provided such amazing class identity and remained thematic to the Virtuoso's concept), I am underwhelmed by dagger as a whole. Its a 1200 range power weapon that's trying to compete with 1200 range greatsword, when really it probs should've just been 600/900 range with a damage increase. But here's my thoughts:

• Flying Cutter:
- Excluding all the bugs like not working on downed people etc, this skill needs a damage boost, and the flurry mechanic needs to be consistent. Personally, I really liked another player's suggestion for the flurry to stock a blade. This is the virt's preferred weapon, then surely it should be the most adept at stocking blades. Again, I've tried to convert this extra feature into a trait, detailed upon in the traits section.

• Bladecall:
- It's a bit hard to hit from range cos of the projectiles' small size and the gap that forms between the daggers as they spread, so maybe tightening the spread would be good or increasing hitboxes of each dagger, but also needs a speed increase on the projectiles as right now they don't feel 'thrown' but just 'released', a dagger throw needs to feel impactful. Also, I feel like the returning blades should not get stuck before they return, but just quickly bounce back, as well as produce an additional effect like cripple/weakness/stock an additional blade on a hit as they return.

• Bladestorm:
- I do believe that Bladestorm needs to not count as a projectile and just a moving AoE, as well as being able to bounce off walls like Bladecall. As a whole I do like it though, maybe if the storm caused some cripple or weakness to enemies it would feel much better, especially to help reduce the punishment of a lack of movement in this spec when chasing or being chased.

As a whole the dagger just needs more buffs and a lower range to about 600/900, I especially would like the suggestions of more blade generation (but can be integrated by way of a trait as detailed further down). As I've said, the Virtuoso's preferred and exclusive weapon should feel more integral to the specs theme and playstyle, which very much focuses on these psionic blades. More blade generation and more damage would make the dagger feel more viable of a choice when competing against m-h sword and greatsword for power builds.

Psionics:
Okay so I understand the concept of psionics as the virt using psionic blades, however these psionics could've felt so much more telekinetic/psychokinetic than what they currently are. My suggestions are as follows:

• Twin Blade Restoration:
- This should be able to be used without a target, used to hit target behind you, and needs more condition cleanse otherwise it's useless. This could be the condition cleanse skill virt needs, it just needs the buffs. However if the whole throwing dagger damage aspect is not really needed, then I would honestly make it just stock 2 more blades, nice and simple but useful. The psionics don't all have to do damage, psychokinesis is so much more than damage, so utilise it. Make this heal more, condition cleanse more and stock blades/actually able to target and hit foes.

• Blade Renewal:
- Like I've mentioned, this is awesome, but feels like it could be a profession mechanic. This as the f4 would wow us mesmers, it's distortion and a generator of the spec's priority resource. It's a much better fit for the defensive f4 shatter.

- Or maybe make it the elite like what has been suggested as the utilities could be much better utilised for stun break, movement, condition cleanse etc. that this spec doesn't currently have. But ultimately its a very good utility, so it might be fine where it is.

• Psychic Force:
- I like this as a stun break it feels very psionic with the knock back and the spinning blades is a pretty and quick animation (good for less visual noise), so as a util I do like it. It needs a lower cooldown though. 45 secs for a stun break on this spec feels unusable so maybe 30/35 secs would be better and more viable.

• Rain of Swords:
- Visually it's very pretty but a lot of noise that can be taxing on fps for most people so I don't know if something can be done about this maybe. I prefer this as an AoE damage than Thousand Cuts 100%, but it needs one of these three things: either a damage increase, a radius increase, or a movement debuff like cripple. This would make it truly succeed in what the util is trying to accomplish which is pure AoE damage.

• Sword of Decimation:
- If this was to stay, I'd honestly wish for the animation to be just a single giant psionic blade to fall from the glyph rather than the several medium blades as its too similar to Rain of Swords to be distinguishable. To be blunt, I would rather this be gone so Rain of Swords can remain as the falling sword skill, but I still would like a hard cc skill like what this is trying to be. So my suggestion is to name this Telekinetic Grip or something similar and make this an AoE float debuff skill. This would really lean into that psionic/telekinetic theme. You would create the same glyph from Sword of Decimation on the ground or still in the air but instead of dropping a blade, it would cause up to 3 or 5 enemies to float telekinetically in the air for like 3 seconds. This is one of my favourite ideas I've come up with to really hone in on the psionic identity of the spec.

• Thousand Cuts:
- I really don't like it. It's so situational that it barely ever feels effective and viable. It's a worse version of Rain of Swords. The projectiles are blockable, the AoE isn't wide enough, and it's just so easy to get out of and avoid completely. This elite doesn't feel elite, the damage is too small for how situational and avoidable it is, but even with buffs I just know it's not what the elite should've been. Let Rain of Swords be the AoE damage utility and make this elite something unique. Like I've mentioned, this could be entirely replaced with Blade Renewal and it would feel so much more elite than Thousand Cuts could ever be.

Couple of suggestions for replacement utilities:

• Telekinetic Grip (Utility to replace Sword of Decimation):
As talked about in my thoughts on Sword of Decimation.

• Cutting Jeté / Jeté Encore (Utility to replace Blade Renewal if it became the F4 or Elite skill):
- Similar to my idea for Bladesong Jeté, where on Cutting Jeté's activation its a ballet jeté dash skill in a direction you choose via ground target, which dashes you around 400 range in that direction. Enemies you dash through are cut with some floating psionic blades for a bit of damage or some cripple/weakness/vuln. The skill flips on first activation to Jeté Encore for maybe 3 seconds which allows you to activate the skill again to move another 400 range in a new direction you ground target but maybe without the extra damage/debuffs. This would provide some much needed movement rather than another damage focused utility while also pulling in that idea of a bladedancer that the virtuoso's bladesongs would evoke.

• Bladedance (Elite to replace Thousand Cuts):
- Firstly, Bladedance immediately sounds like an elite that fits the Virtuoso's bladesong motif. Bladedance would essentially be a 10 second transformation elite similar to ele's Tornado elite where your weapon skills and maybe even utilities are disabled, but you enter a dance routine where you have increased movement speed or possibly some sort of evasion/defence buff (not the important part so these buffs could be ignored entirely), and you're left with your F1-4 with each having 1 ammunition only but when you activate each of them you expend max blades at the target (getting max blades back immediately after using each bladesong) and can only use that particular bladesong once, when you have used all the bladesongs or if you choose to exit your bladedance form you return to all your usual abilities (your usual bladesongs wouldn't have their cooldowns impacted by the bladesongs you used in Bladedance). This would obviously have a cooldown similar to tornado (so pretty long - 110 seconds) but that feels like a true elite skill that ties in the whole concept of the virtuoso and would be really rewarding. Obviously some balancing will need to be done as you would have 4 max blade shatters from 1 elite skill that you can fire in succession of each other, but honestly that could replace Thousand Cuts right now, and feel more rewarding and wouldn't be broken because bladesongs are quite easy to dodge as of the first rendition, but a form where you can fire multiple each after another would guarantee at least a few successful shatters. This is a suggestion, but just to show how these skills could've been so much more unique and creative to really lock into the image and identity of a psionically powerful mesmer than some of what we've been given as of the first beta, not an elite that is barely usable and not rewarding in most scenarios for instance. Also, Bladedance would be a bit more of a straight forward elite to create as you're essentially just giving your bladesongs free max-blade uses, most of the technicality revolves around disabling everything except the bladesongs and making them usable only once in succession of one another before leaving the form.

Traits:
• Psychic Blades:
All good obviously, but bladesongs probs need buffs and more variation like I have suggested: unblockable/no longer projectiles, quicker cast time, quicker travel time etc.

• Bladeturn Refrain:
I really like and with the lack of defence and mobility, this trait feels most appealing to just provide some defence and I do like the synergy with the rest of the top line traits.

• Mental Focus:
It's okay but confusing as the ideal range for the spec is almost questioned with this Adept. Is virt more long range focused with 1200 range dagger and bladesongs or is this a close to mid range spec that wants to be in the front lines. Bit confusing, so maybe a range threshold like what I've heard has been suggested could work better - eg. within 600 range gain 10% strike damage, but within 600-1200 range gain 5% strike damage. This would feel more natural and not punishing when wanting to be pure damage and long range.

• Jagged Mind (now: "Bountiful Blade"):
Condi line gotta go. This is clearly power focused, the dagger is a power weapon, the psionics are power skills, everything screams power so why force a condi line when we have the beast of condi damage that is mirage already? This bottom line needs to be more about utility for sure and even focus on buffing the kit that comes with virtuoso ie. the dagger and psionics. I hate how these sort of traits that buff weapons and skills are starting to be neglected, when they have so much potential. Honestly, make this Adept a dagger trait where you stock a blade when you complete a flurry with flying cutter and reduced skill cooldowns for skill 2 and 3 by about 15-20%. There you have a simple but huge trait that makes dagger a far more appealing weapon than it currently is.

• Deadly Blades:
I like it, but whether it steps on the toes of the vuln stacking premise of Domination is something I'm still trying to answer. It either feels repetitive when considering Domination or it feels like it synergises pretty well with Dom, I'm just not sure. But all in all, it's a good minor trait.

• Duelist's Reversal:
Again, I love the synergy with the other top line traits. The self-quickness is very nice seeing how we have cast times on most of the eSpec's skills but could it be buffed a bit? Maybe? Because when a lot of time is spent channelling bladesongs and utilities, dodging is put on the back-burner a bit. I like it though, but maybe the boons need a little longer on duration or maybe just add vigor/might generation to make dodging a bit more worth while over channeling another bladesong.

• Phantasmal Blades:
Initially I liked a lot, but the more I've pondered on it and how it plays, I feel like it's a bit underwhelming and extremely passive. So my suggestion for this is basically the same as Kroof's which is maybe make the fired blade aspect of this trait and also Psychic Riposte become a small version of the Thousand Cuts glyph and shoot a couple more of these psychic blades over maybe 2/3 seconds (1 blade per second) and make them lock on to their target, this would make the underwhelming damage feel a bit more impactful and also just provide more class identity. Seeing these small, blade-shooting glyphs apparate after phantasms end and/or after successful dodges/blocks is very visually distinctive. As well as feeling a bit more active and intentional, instead of the slightly boring and passive take on these two specific traits as of right now.

• Sharpening Sorrow (now: "Mind Palace"):
Again, condi doesn't belong here. Instead make this the psionics buff trait. Here psionics would get a recharge reduction of like 15-20% and then using psionic skills grant Stability and Fury to lean into that stillness of mind to focus your psionic power. Also, gives us a bit more survivability too, which Virt lacks.

• Quiet Intensity:
I do like this trait empowered Fury and increased ferocity enhances that power, big crit focus of the Virtuoso, so I have no issues here honestly.

• Psychic Riposte:
Once again, I like the synergy of top traits. The blade generation is great and for the blade shot at foes refer back to my suggestion with Phantasmal Blades. With the Phantasmal Blades suggestion, this becomes an impactful and synergistic grandmaster.

• Infinite Forge:
I love it as blade generation is key. However, with this being so passive for a grandmaster maybe it does need that extra something to make it truly feel like a grandmaster. Therefore, like Kroof and many others, I suggest either increasing blade stock maximum from 5 to 6 blades, or allowing this trait to generate up to max blades instead of 3, as a limited blade generation up to 3 blades doesn't feel very "infinite", and with the interval of 3 seconds, I don't believe this would be broken at all, if anything it would feel intended and make more sense in correlation with the traits name.

• Bloodsong:
This is more complicated. So here is two suggestions:

- I could just say replace it because condi doesn't need to be here. But like I've heard suggested, this could work if you combined Jagged Mind with this. Blade attacks inflict bleeding with increased damage on crit hits, and stock a blade each time you inflict 5 stacks of bleeding. Now that would work greatly as a grandmaster if you really wanted some sort of condi trait. That's my only viable option for a condi trait that could work well and feel rewarding and deserving to be on Virtuoso.

- However, I'd much prefer the following for the sake of uniqueness and varied playstyle. The new name would be Bladesong Crescendo. Essentially, your maximum blade count would be reduced to 3, however Bladesongs would now be ground target AoE shatters working like my more drastic suggestions for reworking Bladesongs to be more unique, however this trait would probably work far better. Now, with this trait chosen, when you activate your bladesongs you choose a location within the 1200 range and fire your stocked blades at that ground targeted location and burst at the center point. The AoE radius would be somewhere between 100-200, whatever feels balanced. Numbers would be balanced accordingly to not feel under or over powered obviously, but it would add a very new playstyle for the virtuoso, where stocking many blades isn't as important and more so how you tactically use the 3 blades you can stock to provide AoE pressure. Also, Bladesong Requiem would become AoE ground targetable too, where you would target a location and up to 3 allies (1 could be yourself) within the radius gains Requiem's effects (Aegis and spinning blades). Obviously this one's a lot more drastic than the changes to bloodsong, but I think it would be a pretty awesome grandmaster. I'd say it's a bit inspired by what you guys have done with bottom grandmaster on Bladesworn with reducing max charges but allow for a different playstyle as a result.

Conclusion:
With changes like I've suggested and many suggestions that others have put forward, the Virtuoso has the potential to be something truly creative, unique and simply rewarding to play. I love the premise and concept so much and I just want the Virtuoso to have that boost in capabilities and class identity that it deserves. I hope someone on the team reads this and takes inspiration, because ultimately we players just really want to love everything you guys produce for us, so please listen to us when we give honest and constructive feedback. We want this expansion to be just as awesome as you guys want it to be. Thanks for reading! Take care and stay safe!

[scerevisiae.1972]

Overall I liked it. Blades instead of clones is definitely a good new direction.

Didn't like dagger much at all, the #3 skill is waaaay too slow moving and #2 was a bit meh. i really think the #2 or #3 should have been a movement skill.

The utilites were good, though the damage felt very undertuned.

The elite skill is really bad, numerous times it missed all targets even though it looked perfectly lined up from my perspective. 

[AquaBR.9250]

The bladesong animations when walking feel clunky, the way the character slide to the side is... is the only thing that bothered me in this spec, it is okay while standing still, but it should either have an aftercast where you can't walk, or a animation for when you use it while walking.

[The Specimen.8973]

My Revised Virtuoso (with a more musical/dance aesthetic):

Preface:
This is my own personal revision of the Virtuoso, some ideas may be good, some may be bad. All in all, this is just what I would've loved to have seen from the Virtuoso, and hope to maybe see in a future version of the official Virtuoso. I haven't delved into damage numbers and all that jazz, but mainly the mechanics of the eSpec.

Basic Lore (not much of a change):
The way of the Virtuoso was birthed as the great dancers and minstrels of Cantha joined and melded their musical prowess with concentrated psionic magic, instilled by the monks of the Shing Jea monasteries. With psionically manifested blades to fire at their enemies through the performing of dazzling dances, the Virtuoso harnesses their telekinetic power into psionic abilities of bewildering force.

New Weapon:
• Main-hand Dagger:
- Skill 1:
Flying Cutter - Same as current, except for a damage boost, range of 900, and quicker projectile speed, and successfully hit flurries now stock a blade.

- Skill 2:
Blade Call - Same as current, except for damage boost, tighter spread, quicker projectile speed and return, returning hit inflicts cripple for 3 seconds.

- Skill 3:
Bladestorm - Same as current, except for damage boost, the storm bounces off of the wall like Bladecall, and the storm itself no longer counts as a projectile only the blades that are fired from it.

Bladesongs and Bladedance:
All Bladesongs can be used without a target, have a cast time of ¼ second, can be fired behind and to the side without interruption.

• F1 - Bladesong Harmony:
- Same as current, except for damage increase.

• F2 - Bladesong Crescendo:
- Fire a volley of blades that deal increased damage per boon on a target.

Increased Damage Percentage per Boon: 2%

• F3 - Bladesong Dissonance:
- Same as current, except for daze becoming stun.

• F4 - Bladesong Requiem:
- Same as current.

• F5 - Bladedance
Perform a dance routine that sheathes your weapons and gives you access to new offensive and supportive skills for a period of time through psionically enhanced moves.

Duration: 10 Seconds
Cooldown: 30 Seconds

• Skill 1:
Chain Auto-Attack
Precise Plié - Move. Perform a Plié to fire a blade at your target and grant yourself fury.

Fury (3 sec)
Range: 1200
Blade
Pierce
Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile (20%)

Ballonné Break - Move. Perform a Ballonné to fire a blade that strips boons.

Boons Removed: 1
Range: 1200
Blade
Pierce
Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile (20%)

Arabesque's Punishment - Move. Perform an Arabesque to fire a flourish of blades that deal increased damage to enemies without boons.

Number of Projectiles Fired: 3
Damage Increase to Enemies Without Boons: 10%
Range: 1200
Blade
Pierce
Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile (20%)

• Skill 2:
Blissful Entrechat - Move. Perform an Entrechat to create a psionic harp that pulses healing and resolution to allies in an area, before bursting to give a large amount of healing.

Casting Time: 1 sec
Resolution (2 sec)
Duration: 5 sec
Pulse Interval: 1 second
Radius: 240
Range: 1200
Ground Target
Field: Ethereal

• Skill 3:
Fierce Attitude - Move. Perform an Attitude Derrière to create a psionic lute that pulses damage and vulnerability in an area, before bursting to deal a large amount of damage.

Casting Time: 1 sec
Vulnerability (2 stacks) (3 sec)
Duration: 5 sec
Pulse Interval: 1 sec
Radius: 240
Range: 1200
Ground Target
Field: Ethereal

• Skill 4:
Pirouette's Puzzle - Move. Perform a Pirouette to create a psionic flute that pulses confusion and weakness in an area, before bursting to daze enemies.

Casting Time: 1 sec
Confusion (3 stacks) (3 sec)
Weakness (2 sec)
Daze (3 sec)
Duration: 5 sec
Pulse Interval: 1 sec
Radius: 240
Range: 1200
Ground Target
Field: Ethereal

• Skill 5:
Cutting Jeté - Move. Perform a Grande Jeté as you dash in a direction you choose, while psionic blades damage and cripple foes that you pass through.

Cripple (3 sec)
Range: 400
Blade
Ground Target

Skill Flip

Encore Jeté - Move. Perform a second Grande Jeté to dash in another direction of your choosing.

No Damage/Conditions
Range: 400
Ground Target

Psionics:
Heal:
• Twin Blade Restoration:
Same as current, except now it has a cast time of ½ sec, you can use it without a target, the blades can be thrown behind or to the side, and you cleanse 2 conditions instead of 1. When used without a target, stock two blades instead of throwing them.

Utilities:
• Psychic Force:
Same as current, except for the cooldown being 35 seconds instead of 45.

• Rain of Swords:
Same as current, except for Sword of Decimation's damage increase to cc'd targets has been merged with Rain of Swords, and its now an ethereal field.

• Soothing Thoughts:
Psionic. Release soothing thoughts to yourself and nearby allies that cleanes conditions and breaks stuns.

Conditions Removed: 4
Breaks stun on you and allies
Number of Targets: 5
Radius: 300

• Telekinetic Grip:
Psionic. Cause enemies in a large area to float telekinetically for a short time.

Number of Targets: 3
Skill & Float Duration: 2½ sec
Range: 1200
Radius: 240
Field: Ethereal
Ground Target

Elite:
• Blade Renewal:
- Same as current, except its now the elite with a 45 second cooldown.

Traits:
Minor Adept:
• Same as current, except for the additional recognition of Bladedance as the new F5 mechanic.

Major Adepts:
• Phantasmal Blades:
Phantasms grant you Vigor upon completing their attack, and summon a portal that fires blades at their target when they expire.

Vigor (4 sec)
Portal Duration: 3 sec
Blades per Second: 1
Blade Range: 1200
Blade
Pierce

• Mental Focus:
Strike damage increases by 10% while below the range threshold. Strike damage increases by 5% while above the range threshold.

Range Threshold: 450

• Blades of Plenty:
Improves dagger skills. Bladecall becomes an ammo skill and Bladestorm grants superspeed to allies and cripples enemies.

Maximum Count: 2
Count Recharge: 5 sec
Superspeed (2 sec per damage pulse)
Cripple (4 sec per damage pulse)

Minor Master:
• Dancing Blade:
Blades grant superspeed on critical hits.

Superspeed (¾ sec)

Major Masters:
• Psychic Riposte:
Blocking or dodging an attack grants you quickness and fury, as well as summon a portal that fires blades at their target.

Quickness (5 sec)
Fury (6 sec)
Portal Duration: 3 sec
Blades per Second: 1
Blade Range: 1200
Blade
Pierce

• Born To Perform:
Bladesongs grant fury and the duration of your Bladedance is increased.

Fury (6 sec)
Bladedance Duration Increase: 5 sec

• Mind Palace:
Psionics grant you Stability and Fury when used. Psionics gain a reduced recharge of 20%.

Stability (5 sec)
Fury (6 sec)
Reduced Recharge: 20%

Minor Grandmaster:
• Quiet Intensity:
Fury gives an increased critical hit chance. Gain ferocity based on your vitality. (Same as current version)

Major Grandmasters:
• Infinite Forge:
Automatically stock blades while below minimum blade count. You can now stock up to 6 blades.

Maximum Blade Count: 6
Minimum Blade Count: 4
Interval: 3 Seconds
Works in and outside of combat

• Diligent Rehearsal:
When you stock maximum blades gain Diligent Rehearsal.

Diligent Rehearsal (3 sec): Your next Bladesong is unblockable.

• Show Must Go On:
Gain Stability when you enter your Bladedance. When you complete a Move during your Bladedance, you stock a blade.

Stability (3 stacks) (10 sec)

Conclusion:

This revision is a lot more refined than my previous feedback and suggestions, and I do feel like I've been able to really capture that essence of the Virtuoso being this psionic bladedancer that Arena Net are going for, especially with my suggestion of the Bladedance mechanic on F5. Love to hear if these changes would be desirable by other mesmer players or not. Take care and stay safe all!

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by The Specimen.8973
Changed some things

[Axl.8924]

On 9/23/2021 at 7:42 PM, Leonidrex.5649 said:

do you really wanna ask ?
My prediction, aegis trait and qickness on dodge will get nerfed ( hurr durr pvp hurr durr )
nothing new will be added
numbers will be changes so the dps is ~40k on a golem as thats what the spec is made for.
no other changes

 

It should be top dps i mean it has little to no mobility, so it seems like its meant for having maximum dps, unlike mirage who has evades and stuff. You might end up being wrong and it ends up being a top competitor for raids.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Salt Mode.3780]

15 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

It should be top dps i mean it has little to no mobility, so it seems like its meant for having maximum dps, unlike mirage who has evades and stuff. You might end up being wrong and it ends up being a top competitor for raids.

Again never understood the concept of why raids or PvE is a benchmark to a usefulness of a class. Top DPS or Moderate DPS at the end of the day its just clearing the content faster or slower. PvE can be done either or there is no such thing as we need an AMAZING OP DPS to clear content, cuz again its PvE. Infact over the years you can just skip mechanics or phases or simply stand in the AoE and not even worry about it. 

[Axl.8924]

5 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again never understood the concept of why raids or PvE is a benchmark to a usefulness of a class. Top DPS or Moderate DPS at the end of the day its just clearing the content faster or slower. PvE can be done either or there is no such thing as we need an AMAZING OP DPS to clear content, cuz again its PvE. Infact over the years you can just skip mechanics or phases or simply stand in the AoE and not even worry about it. 

it seems more fragile than other mes specs i could be wrong but it seems that way.

I hope so if there was a class i'm interested now its this vindi and bladesworn so far.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Urphen.2857]

Hoped for something else, but what we got is the same only with other animations, again we are collecting resources to use them for exactly the same F-Skills as before, even if they are now projectiles (which is even worse in WvW).

 

Please change the name to Bladedancer, this whole song thing doesn't make sense since you're only attacking with blades.

remove the condi traits since Mirage is our condi spec and give us a trait that change playstyle, like if u use this trait your F-Skills no longer are projectiles, instead they got changed to melee attacks, using F1 could be like mesmer grabs 2 Blades to attack while the rest is spinning fast around him and F2 would be a forward dash that strikes all blades in the enemy and in the same time giving us a mobility option.

 

or do something else but pls don't let our whole Mechanic be projectiles (with the same F-Skills that the other 2 specs + core have) in a game where with bad timing a Chak with his refelct bubble can kill you and in WvW you get completely useless because skills with projectile hate get spammed like nothing.

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 10/1/2021 at 11:04 AM, Axl.8924 said:

 

It should be top dps i mean it has little to no mobility, so it seems like its meant for having maximum dps, unlike mirage who has evades and stuff. You might end up being wrong and it ends up being a top competitor for raids.

I dont care about it's dps.
Developers can brute-force any dps on any class by changing numbers, I want the elite to be interesting, and add something new to the game. That is all my beef.
People may say I am biased and I want mesmer to be OP.
But the truth is, I will be the first guy to point out some things are broken in our class, and kitten me for it.
I said revive trait was OP and it was nerfed.
The moment torment was " reworked " I said the devs are crazy and mirage will be broken beyond belief and it needs to be adjusted ( still OP, 40k+ bench not even counting confusion lol )
When alac mirage became a thing it was OP, I knew it, I said its OP. Its been nerfed, there is even a post asking for reverting a nerf, I said kitten off, it was OP and got a nerf it deserved.
Bottom line is. Above all else, spec needs to be INTERESTING and FUN. Because numbers can be changed in 5min to make a build meta. Im not asking for them to make virtuoso 1shot people in pvp, or be immortal in pve or have the highest benchmark immaginable. I just want to have a new mechanic to play with, otherwise I wont even bother leveling the elite, let alone buying the expansions. So far my only hopes are for ranger.

[Axl.8924]

2 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I dont care about it's dps.
Developers can brute-force any dps on any class by changing numbers, I want the elite to be interesting, and add something new to the game. That is all my beef.
People may say I am biased and I want mesmer to be OP.
But the truth is, I will be the first guy to point out some things are broken in our class, and kitten me for it.
I said revive trait was OP and it was nerfed.
The moment torment was " reworked " I said the devs are crazy and mirage will be broken beyond belief and it needs to be adjusted ( still OP, 40k+ bench not even counting confusion lol )
When alac mirage became a thing it was OP, I knew it, I said its OP. Its been nerfed, there is even a post asking for reverting a nerf, I said kitten off, it was OP and got a nerf it deserved.
Bottom line is. Above all else, spec needs to be INTERESTING and FUN. Because numbers can be changed in 5min to make a build meta. Im not asking for them to make virtuoso 1shot people in pvp, or be immortal in pve or have the highest benchmark immaginable. I just want to have a new mechanic to play with, otherwise I wont even bother leveling the elite, let alone buying the expansions. So far my only hopes are for ranger.

I mean so do i want virtuoso  since i enjoy the playstyle of illusionless shatter build plus it feels nice building up knives.

[Leonidrex.5649]

23 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

I mean so do i want virtuoso  since i enjoy the playstyle of illusionless shatter build plus it feels nice building up knives.

and bless you and your soul for it.
And I am legit very happy for you, I on the other hand, and many others will remain upset.

[Axl.8924]

4 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

and bless you and your soul for it.
And I am legit very happy for you, I on the other hand, and many others will remain upset.

I didn't say it doesn't have issues but at least unlike catalyst which is heavily lacking in damage and other ele type stuff.

I think virutoso has a identity, it just needs fixing on the moves because some stuff are underpowered.

From what i personaly have seen:

Virtuoso harbringer bladesworn vindicator have a identity, even willbender too, even if it needs overhauled. Its not completely unsalvageable situation for virtuoso in my opinion.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

12 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

I didn't say it doesn't have issues but at least unlike catalyst which is heavily lacking in damage and other ele type stuff.

I think virutoso has a identity, it just needs fixing on the moves because some stuff are underpowered.

From what i personaly have seen:

Virtuoso harbringer bladesworn vindicator have a identity, even willbender too, even if it needs overhauled. Its not completely unsalvageable situation for virtuoso in my opinion.

Catalyst has more identity than Virt. At least they got something new with F5.
Virt on the other hand is like "we got something new for you it's the same kitten ever except we removed a bunch of QoL from it".

[Tseison.4659]

🔮🤔

Just some minor additional feedback on the utilities. Three of them: Rain of Swords, Sword of Decimation and Thousand Cuts are essentially the same, in it that Thousand Cuts casts horizontally and has a "longer" range and "more damage," while the other two cast from above. 

As I've mentioned in my first feedback post, it would be ideal to have Rain of Swords and Sword of Decimation combined, giving room to a new skill to be created. Additionally with Thousand Cuts as it essentially is the same as Rain of Swords, it's just cast at a different angle. 

This is a fair proposal only because yes I understand the whole "Psionic Blades" concept, but I think we need more variety in utilities that don't JUST revolve around summoning Psionic Blades, since you've taken Rain of Swords, copied and pasted it twice in the form of the other two I mentioned.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Tseison.4659

[Axl.8924]

12 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Catalyst has more identity than Virt. At least they got something new with F5.
Virt on the other hand is like "we got something new for you it's the same kitten ever except we removed a bunch of QoL from it".

Did you see moves on hammer ele ? its really bad.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Mik.3401]

unfortunately this design failure of a spec is here to stay I suppose. Few random adjustments I’d propose to save this dying patient are:
 

 

- bring back distortion on F4, make it 2s (virt is so clunky, 2s is ok instead of 1s I think) and get rid of the 3s distortion utility. It could be like the current F4 block along with loading all blades. So mix & swap these two skills kind of

- make F1 and F2 have 1/4s cast times working without target too,

- give ability to shatter sideways (maybe also to the back? Kind of unsure of it now)

- rework blade song effects: add some other conditions as maybe:

+Weakness on top of confusion on F2

+Fear/Taunt on F3 instead of daze

just make it feel psionic!

 

- record some musical effects for bladesongs, you spend time re-recording guardian skills you surely have time for that

- decrease dagger range to 900 and make it attack faster, add bleed to auto to synergize with the bleeding trait (which needs to have bleeding increased from 1s to like 2,5s btw)

- if you want to keep dagger 3 slow and clunky it is fine but add something rewarding to incentivise using it - maybe chill or 1s fear?

- give more condis to utilities, they all seem to be just Dps without any substance

- trash the elite skill altogether it is just bad

 

The dps of this spec as it stands is bit low but I think it would be ok to leave base power numbers as they are, GIVEN they invest in giving it more crowd control ability. I think effects like fear perfectly match a psionic mage. Capitalising in it could create a noce interesting spec. Because for now it is all we have already, just worse.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Mik.3401