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Virtuoso Feedback Thread [Merged]


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2 hours ago, zetherin.8372 said:

Why are you referring to yourself in the 3rd person?  Also, the 6.3k expertise is awesome and should totally be a feature.  The blade generation is wicked when you have high crit and slightly longer bleed duration

 

Also, fighting chak has become a whole new level of hell with their ranged damage reflection.  Earth eles as well.

Kitty is their Gw2 character (so they're to her, not referring to themselves in 3rd person), you should check out their YouTube channel!

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Finally able to collect my thoughts, here’s my impression so far on my testing.   To start, I’m going to say that this was a missed opportunity to give the Virtuoso Dual Daggers. If this hap

My feedback F1 is worse than core, less damage, easily strafeable, the fact that it hits 5 projectiles in a row makes you miss several of them.  F2 is one of the few good skills on Virt, I w

This is like a core Mesmer except worse. It has no mobility, swiftness, nothing. It has no teleports, no reflects, its only defensive abilities are channels, its attacks are slow, do little damage and

My feedback

F1 is worse than core, less damage, easily strafeable, the fact that it hits 5 projectiles in a row makes you miss several of them. 

F2 is one of the few good skills on Virt, I would replace confusion with something else since condi Virt is not a good option. 

F3 is useless and proves that this balance team is clueless about their own game, no need to explain why again. 

F4 is so much worse than core, the fact that it's a channel makes it useless and the damage portion will actually get you killed due to stun auras, reveals, etc. 

Plus all Fs require to face the target which is silly as kitten. 

All utilities are bad except for blade renewal, huge cast times + delayed animations on case of aoes, the stun break one is awful and no one will use it. 

Heal is obnoxious. 

Elite is one of the worst elites on game if not the worst. 

Traits are shallow and provide no various ways to play the spec no matter what you trait. 

Condi traits are awful. 

Dagger skills are kitten, every one of them. Slow moving projectiles, low damage, easily negated. 

You removed clones but gave nothing in return. 

No CC, No sustain, No mobility, No mechanic. 

You can come with "pure damage, shatter based" or w/e kitten you invented, it's a lie and you know it, this has low damage and the shatter cds are the same so you'll shatter at the same speed.  Chrono is the shatter spec, not this one. 

This might be the most generic trash I've ever played in a mmo, so it's kind of a prize I guess. 

Edit: riposte trait doesn't solve anything, it's a useless trait, if you don't understand why you shouldn't be on a balance team to begin with. 

Edited by Lincolnbeard.1735
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This is mostly PvP standpoint

 

Bladesongs:

Bladesongs are still straight downgrade of  Core Shatters  in terms of both damage and practicallity.

1. The cast time is too long. It must be reduced to at least 1/2 seconds.

2. Being forced to face the target and ability cancelling itself when you stop facing the target while casting Bladesong makes it near impossible to effectively kite which is essential to survive as Virtuoso.

3. Hitboxes are too small. Enemies can avoid Bladesongs even by random movement. Either the projectile speed or the projectile hitbox should be increased.

4. Bladeturn Requiem is too weak in everything it does. The damage from Blades is not threatining at all. Either Blades should deal a lot more damage so it will punish enemies for jumping at you mindlessly and shattering with extra blades will actually matter or it should channel distortion without any spinning Blades (shaterring extra blades giving longer distortion)

 

Dagger

I still believe that we sould get off-hand dagger as well. It would make more sense thematically and it might be used to cover lack of mobility in main hand dagger and utility skills.

1. Dagger skills deal very low damage for skills that only and only deal damage (PvP) Either additonal utility must be added to those skills like vuln, cripple, immobilize, daze etc (which I think would be more appropriate) or their damage should be increased significantly for PvP

2. I like how dagger can be used both in melee and range unlike most ranged weapons which are too slow in melee combat. However, both Bladecall and Unstable Bladestorm works a lot better in melee range which contradicts with Virtuoso's identity. Blades from Bladecall can combine into one blade like Sevenshot from Renegade when it reaches to 600ish range so it will also reward using it from long range. Unstable Bladestorm should move and shoot faster.

 

Traits

Condi line should be removed. Not reworked or tweaked, simply removed. Even with absurd 6k expertise, it doesn't work because Mesmer's condi application comes from clones and core Mesmer's condi capabilities were nerfed to the ground thanks to Mirage. 3 traits are not enough to make that playstyle happen. It can be replaced with some movement or control focused traits. 

 

Utility-Heal-Elite

1. Heal skill shouldn't require facing a target. No one expects damage from a healing skill. If it's really needed to shoot some blade, spinning blades from F4 can be moved to healing skill or it can shoot blades in every direction for a very minor damage. 

2. Blade Renewal's fuctionality as channeled Distortion should be moved to F4 and that utility slot should be replaced with something else. A mobility skill would be great since Virtuoso is really lacking in terms of combat movement.

3. Elite skill should deal way more damage in PvP since it's nearly impossible to hit people more than 3 times with it in PvP unles they are downed. Alternatively, it can be reworked into a short face channel that can be carried with you like Flame Jet of Engi or it can apply cripple.

Edited by Lethion.8745
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2 hours ago, Sukeena.3506 said:

Things I like about the virtuoso: nice visuals and plays very smoothly. What I dislike: the sound effect of the blades and the movement of the blades when you turn around. Also would be nice to toggle the blades over your head to turn on and off.

Same here, I really enjoy the elite spec! But the sound is too heavy and I would love to be able to turn the blades off my head when I'm out of combat.

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Remove phantasms!!! Is my dream

/

give the f1 2 ammo naturally.

scrap f2 and make it a mobility skill. Let it dash in a direction the range depending on number of blades.( Use that twirl animations the firebrand has on tome skills 2)

f3 should be insta cast or make it a stun

i agree blade renewal f4 

 

personally: all f abilities except f1 should use an illusionary instrument to cast. No guitar please.

this spec needs a personality 

 

scrap condi line its 100 percent not needed!  Make this have some support/utility 
 

The two raining swords abilities need to be combined

 

make the current f4 a utility and let it do damage 

 

give us a utility that makes our skills unblockable . It should be able to be shared with allies

 

Dagger needs refining but its mostly numbers. 
 

id personally like unstable bladestorm to be a ground targeted aoe that stays in place 
 

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Total newbie perspective here, but, in theory, I would love a Mesmer specialization option like Virtuoso, that basically removes the eternal "do I shatter these clones now, or keep them around a little longer for defense?" question and just allows me to always use Shatters without any worry. 

But without clones, where does my Mesmer survivability come from now? From blocks from F4 Shatter and aegis? So is Bladeturn Refrain basically mandatory? And arguably Illusions by extension for more Shatters to give you your blocks? I also tried to further synergize with Lesser Phantasmal Defender from Inspiration, but it doesn't seem to reliably proc from aegis blocks, nor reliably take aggro, on occasions when it does actually show up. Only the Phantasmal Defender skill proper seems to always work.

Or am I just deluding myself with block, and Virtuoso is supposed to be just a very fragile ranged DPS, in exchange for no clone hassle? 

If so, then Dagger is not a very good ranged weapon. Only the third skill is at least fun to use. The first two skills seem both very underpowered and just boring - even compared to Scepter, let alone Greatsword.

Edited by Palomar.4607
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I feel forced into taking https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shatter_Storm because I get too many blades but my bladesongs are always on cooldown. Please reduce bladesongs cds.

ALL our piercing attacks should be unblockable or not considered projectiles(like gsword auto). They have a travel time, can be blocked, and don't follow the target. That's too many disadvantages, compare it to rapid fire on longbow for ranger which is nearly intsant travel time, follows the target, BUT is blockable. That's a fine trade off, we have all the bad with none of the good on our piercing attacks.

Dagger should imo be 1500 range with a trait. We're a ranged glass cannon, emphasize that harder. This has no effect in most PvE or raids because you still need to stack for buffs.

This is a ranged focused spec but my top  trait line is all about dodging and being in melee which makes no sense. The mid trait line being focused on melee is fine(for pve dps) and having pve traits is fine  but the top or bottom should focus on ranged, imo,. The bottom traits are all pretty bad and should be replaced entirely as some others mentioned, because dagger has no condi application and base mesmer condi weapons are very weak condition weapons. This is a power spec, focus on that aspect, mirage is the condi DPS spec for mesmer.

It's clear the top trait line is meant for pvp, middle pve, and bottom condi, but as I, and others have said, condi doesn't work for this. replace it with a pure ranged option trait line focusing on that, and look into our grandmaster traits as they don't change or define our playstyle as they should. The entire top row is not good enough for pvp and needs help/redesigns.

Reduce the cast on the heal skill or something, I self interrupt it all the time and I'm not sure what the issue is, it's too difficult to use and not worth it over ether feast which is a 9k heal.

 

PvP = WvW and SPVP both.

Edited by Shiyo.3578
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Please listen to the community Anet!

The cast time on f1 to f3 remains a glairing flaw of the Virtuoso among many others. 
While it is annoying having the need to channel our basic shatters in PvE, it simply breaks the flow of the class in PvP and WvW. 
Overall, the shatters just doesn't feel responsive. The requirements of LoS on top of cast time is not encouraging skill play but instead the stealth spam playstyle which the balance team did so much to take away from the mesmer years ago.  

 

And who thought of the idea of putting a cast time on f3, an interrupt skill that has a cast time simply defeats its very purpose?

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I do find it hard to survive.  I was fighting some frogs and beetles by the giant tree waypoint in TD and I was near constantly poisoned.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but we have 1 heal skill and a singular block (F4) unless we talent more.  I found I was doing lots of damage and it was fun, but my health was constantly going down and I had no way to bring it back up.  Lots of other classes at this point have some sort of "vamp" or "lifesteal" talents/skills.  I feel like Virtuoso needs something small to offer a little more sustain

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1 hour ago, Palomar.4607 said:

But without clones, where does my Mesmer survivability come from now? From blocks from F4 Shatter and aegis? So is Bladeturn Refrain basically mandatory? And arguably Illusions by extension for more Shatters to give you your blocks? I also tried to further synergize with Lesser Phantasmal Defender from Inspiration, but it doesn't seem to reliably proc from aegis blocks, nor reliably take aggro, on occasions when it does actually show up. Only the Phantasmal Defender skill proper seems to always work.

I think that you have 3 ways of improving your survivability when playing Virtuoso :

  • Go for Inspiration, pick Restorative Illusions + Illusionary Inspiration +  Signet of the Ether (e.g. inspiration x22). You'll heal each time you stock a blade (illusionary inspiration + signet) and each time you use your songs (restorative illusions). You stock blade fast enough that this will give you quite a bit of passive self healing.
  • Go for Chaos, pick Illusionary Defense + Bountiful Disillusionment (e.g. chaos 2x3). You'll get -25% suffered damage, and stability from songs, as well as a lot of regen.
  • In Virtuoso, pick Bladeturn Refrain + Duelist's Reversal + Psychic Riposte (e.g. virtuoso 111), then play with scepter + sword for their block skills (scepter 2 and sword 4). This will provide a lot of Aegis (and Quickness for good measure), and generally a lot of block.

You can play with any number of them, and picking all 3 pretty much turn you into a tank. I personally only run the Inspiration line, because I like virtuoso 333 (you dish out so. many. wounds. if you can get to 100% crit chance).

 

Edited by Nimeroni.5612
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Basically repeating myself from the first beta...

The cast times on bladesongs and being force to use them while facing a target is really hindering this spec.  Psychic Riposte is a start with unblockable but it feels underwhelming.  Maybe if it added a 3s buff or something where it made Bladeseongs unblockable that'd be better.

The other big issue is that you have to be facing the target while casting Bladesongs and even the heal.

Swap Bladeturn Requiem and Blade Renewal.

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I would like ANet to reduce the cooldown on all bladesongs (except F4) to 3s.

That would distinguish the songs from shatters, it would help distinguish between power and condi DPS (you'd spam Harmony for power and Sorrow for condi, whereas right now, we produce so many blades that we can use all songs on cooldown and still have blades to spare), and it would make a nice loop for a tank build (use a song -> get aegis from Bladeturn Refrain -> block an attack with aegis -> stock 3 blades from Psychic Riposte -> use a song with the 3 blades).

Edited by Nimeroni.5612
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- Improve condi trait line. I want to see a condi option or hybrid for virtuoso. This spec is not just power based, it’s also the possibility for a mesmer to play without a dying clone spec (in wvw for example). 
 

- Give sustain/survivability/mobilty to the spec. It’s a glass canon Spec without mobility cleans etc.

 

- F1-F4 : it’s the virtuoso ´s mecanic so reduce the CD to be used more often. Make it instant. F3 should be considered as 5 blades and not one that is merged. F4 should be the spell blade renewal but without cast time. 

- Dagger : the weapon is nice, it needs more utility like block, shadowstep, crippling, or blind. The AA chain should also provide bleed/torment or confusion. 

- Blades : they shouldn’t be considered as projectiles or all the virtuoso kit could be easily countered for a long period of time.

 

The spec could be fun and bursty. It could save a lof of problem that mesmer face concerning the dying clones. 

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My feedback from testing so far is very positive. I had enormous fun running this spec. More than I anticipated and expectations were high already. Just some possible improvements or items to consider:

 

1. Missing Bladesong tool tip indication of Agis application with Bladeturn Refrain

2. Clone utility skills should be marked that Clone will be replaced by Blade in skill tooltip. Now it may be confused, that skill is not working. Especially, if all 5 Blades are up.

3. Summoned /stowed Blades are too stiff. Changing targets just rotate all 5 active one at one instance. Could Blade target switch be spread out over the time?  i.e random blade is turned towards new target each 0,1s. Just to show those are individually floating "objects" not stiff frame.

4. Idle animations for stowed blades. Those are too static and looks like nice looking, glowing weakaura... Possibly a hand wave or gesture as new blade is stowed in and out of combat?

5. Thousand Cuts is only 1.25x more damage than Rain of swords. Ulti is unbloackable, but can be sidestepped by one dodge roll. Utility is too big to roll out, using single dodge and applies Vulnerability too. Change Thousand Cuts ultimate to channel skill may be. i.e Casting ultyi starts channel for 5 sec. Skill starts with parameters as currently (2860 damage over 5sec) and persists unchanged if channel is broken. So casting and moving have same effect as currently. Maintaining channel, increases remaining ticks by 1,1 for each channeled ticks. High risk high reward.

6. For me it was weary easy to overcap with Blades. Between weapon skills, Psionic skills and Traits I was able to generate them quickly. I frequently had situation where all 4 Bladesongs were on cooldawn and 5 had 5 Blades stowed. Just could not spend them fast enough. This made Blade Renewal blade generation useless i feel. I was not able to use those anyway. Possibly I was inefficient due to lack of practice, but this is my gut feel. Blade renewal would be picked for Distortion effect only, which is not following intended design I think. Possibly Blade Renewal could increase Blade cap from 5 to 6 or 7?

7. Bladesongs lack damage or utility in my opinion. Core Clones at least maintain their utility, even as Shatters are on cooldown or are saved for correct moment  to be used. Bladesongs only pull ahead of shatters, if used with 5 blades (as Commander functions as 4'th shattered clone). Bladesongs have no utility as Blades are stowed, meanwhile I can overcap with clones and sill get some utility like damage or simple body blocking. (also Comander dosen't act as additional Blade/Clone in case of Bladesongs). May be add Combo Finisher: Projectile for F1, F2 and F3, while F4 could be Combo Finisher:Blast?

 

With regards

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I think that visually it would look better if new blades always appeared in what is now the fifth blade spot, and then moved into the other positions as more are summoned. So right now blades appear like so: 1 3 5 4 2. I would make the first blade appear in spot 5, then move to 3 while the second blade is forming; second blade would move to 4 after forming to look more balanced. Then third blade appears in the 5 spot. First and third blades move to 1 and 3 spots while the fourth blade is forming, then second and fourth blades move to 2 and 4 spots.

 

The blades should be removed visually when mounted and probably when out of combat for more than a few seconds.

 

Blades don't regen while mounted, which means that in a map like Drizzlewood, where there's usually one group moving between events via skyscale, you're not always starting the next fight with full blades, which seems to be the intent of the out of combat regen.

 

I am completely baffled by the lack of an off hand dagger.

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I loved this new Elite, and I understand that the "cost" of having Bladesong is that now the Shatters take a while to launch

...but it is very easy for the Bladesong to cancel itself (when moving the target or when using another ability), which makes them not cast repeatedly (a big problem, being the main mechanic)

Any option that the following abilities are put on hold, or that abilities can be cast while the Bladesong are charging?

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Anyone else feel a little off that we have "Blade Songs" but nothing actually music related?

I'd love to see at least some F5 mechanic that gains a unique effect based on your last three shatters, similar to how Recital works in the Monster Hunter Hunting Horn!

Would at least add some additional layer of complexity to an otherwise "mostly downsides" Shatter changes with the elite spec.

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If Virtuoso's gonna be the 'shatter spec', I wish they tried some crazier ideas with the bladesongs and blades to make them more distinct from core shatter. Right now, aside from the new blocking GM being fun, the moment-to-moment gameplay is too similar to core mesmer.(except shatters feeling...worse?) I guess F4 tried to be a little different but it just felt like a downgraded distortion rather than its own skill. I want them to really reimagine the upper skill bar, and shatter mechanic as a whole, not just adapt it from core. 

Also, thematically, telekinetic sword flinging not being instant-cast just feels way uncool.

Speaking of themes, I couldn't clearly see what it was trying to be. It's not particularly graceful, nimble, technical, forceful, calculated... it's not particularly anything, it's just a class that flings pink knives in 12 vaguely different ways. I guess the traits want me to block and evade, which ties in to asian martial arts fantasy, but then what are these dagger and utility skills even doing here?

Segueing into utility, dagger skills, and elite - besides being incoherent when presented together - as individual skills they overall felt less than exciting. I honestly wouldn't bat an eye if any of the utility skills got axed between now and release. Maybe there's a way to move some VFXs, sounds and animations around to make some creative changes within reasonable development costs?

 

It sounds like I hated it, but I actually did enjoy playing as virtuoso...it's just more fun with core weapons and utilities. When I realized a lot of the gameplay depends on core mesmer kit being fun, it suddenly explained why everything felt way too familiar.

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16 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

My feedback

F1 is worse than core, less damage, easily strafeable, the fact that it hits 5 projectiles in a row makes you miss several of them. 

F2 is one of the few good skills on Virt, I would replace confusion with something else since condi Virt is not a good option. 

F3 is useless and proves that this balance team is clueless about their own game, no need to explain why again. 

F4 is so much worse than core, the fact that it's a channel makes it useless and the damage portion will actually get you killed due to stun auras, reveals, etc. 

Plus all Fs require to face the target which is silly as kitten. 

All utilities are bad except for blade renewal, huge cast times + delayed animations on case of aoes, the stun break one is awful and no one will use it. 

Heal is obnoxious. 

Elite is one of the worst elites on game if not the worst. 

Traits are shallow and provide no various ways to play the spec no matter what you trait. 

Condi traits are awful. 

Dagger skills are kitten, every one of them. Slow moving projectiles, low damage, easily negated. 

You removed clones but gave nothing in return. 

No CC, No sustain, No mobility, No mechanic. 

You can come with "pure damage, shatter based" or w/e kitten you invented, it's a lie and you know it, this has low damage and the shatter cds are the same so you'll shatter at the same speed.  Chrono is the shatter spec, not this one. 

This might be the most generic trash I've ever played in a mmo, so it's kind of a prize I guess. 

Edit: riposte trait doesn't solve anything, it's a useless trait, if you don't understand why you shouldn't be on a balance team to begin with. 

Inb4 Anet’s response: ‘so we have seen a lot of concerns about the ability to stock blades between battles…’ 😂

Even though what you said kept repeating on and on in our feedback. I’m truly curious what will happen to this spec post-release

 

Edited by Mik.3401
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