Virtuoso Feedback Thread [Merged]

[Walle.6045]

15 hours ago, Sukeena.3506 said:

Things I like about the virtuoso: nice visuals and plays very smoothly. What I dislike: the sound effect of the blades and the movement of the blades when you turn around. Also would be nice to toggle the blades over your head to turn on and off.

Omg this x1000 I cannot stand the dagger sounds I will not use that weapon 

[Lance Thrower.3921]

Been playing GW2 off and on since 2012 in solely PvP as mesmer.   To sum up my thoughts: back to the drawing board.  Bladesong feels awful; trait line is exceptionally dull and provides no inspiration; dagger remains highly confusing as to how it got designed; overall just a mess of an elite.  I had gone in really liking the idea of a ranged, all-in damage dealer.  I have come out likely not to purchase the expac.

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

There are a few changes off the top of my head for virtuoso that i'd like to see. 

1. Shatter 4 should deal more power damage. 

2. There should be a trait, maybe master, but preferably minor that gives swiftness when a certain number of blades are stocked. Maybe 3 to 5. 

3. Shatter 3 should be instant cast.

4. Bladesongs should be castable with no target. This would do two things. Firstly, you could precast a shatter then take a target in the middle of the cast. Secondly, it would allow you to cleanse conditions with shatters, without a target, when taking the Inspirations traitline.

 

[Palomar.4607]

9 hours ago, Nimeroni.5612 said:

I think that you have 3 ways of improving your survivability when playing Virtuoso :

• Go for Inspiration, pick Restorative Illusions + Illusionary Inspiration +  Signet of the Ether (e.g. inspiration x22). You'll heal each time you stock a blade (illusionary inspiration + signet) and each time you use your songs (restorative illusions). You stock blade fast enough that this will give you quite a bit of passive self healing.
• Go for Chaos, pick Illusionary Defense + Bountiful Disillusionment (e.g. chaos 2x3). You'll get -25% suffered damage, and stability from songs, as well as a lot of regen.
• In Virtuoso, pick Bladeturn Refrain + Duelist's Reversal + Psychic Riposte (e.g. virtuoso 111), then play with scepter + sword for their block skills (scepter 2 and sword 4). This will provide a lot of Aegis (and Quickness for good measure), and generally a lot of block.

Thanks for the advice!

1) I was already running  Signet of the Ether, but I didn't know Illusionary Inspiration also healed yourself.

2) I was skeptical about being able to keep enough Illusionary Defense stacks up, but with Psychic Riposte and Signet of Illusions it's doable. Bountiful Disillusionment is tied to a long F4 Shatter cooldown, though, and - as said earlier in the thread - Illusions seems mandatory for the Shatter Virtuoso with current cooldowns, so there's just no room for Chaos.

3) Psychic Riposte seems indeed much better than the standard Infinite Forge for block Virtuoso - it gives you 3 blades right away for more powerful Shatters and max Restorative Illusions heal. Especially with Signet of Illusions to give you another way of blade autogen. For weapons I prefer dual swords over scepter/sword though. Blur is almost like a block, and the DPS is so much better.

Melee block-and-regen-tank Virtuoso is actually fun... as long as all the "I always have my blades available, but Shatters on cd" talk does not result in nerfing the blade generation, instead of shortening the Shatter cooldowns, which is what's needed to give the specialization more usability and build flexibility.

Right now I feel like I have to take Illusions. And not for some fun build optimization, but just to make a core part of the specialization even usable.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Palomar.4607

[fadico.9613]

The virtuosu is great but there are some small things that needs to be changes.

1- bladeturn requiem isnt clear on when does the block ends does it end after the crystal bubble disappear or after the swords disappear it is not easy to know.

2- please just change the condition traits for virtuosu just make it a pure power build like you did to the mirage as a pure condition build, you can change them to decrease the recharge on dagger skills and when stunned use psychic force to break stun and push enemies or put some traits that apply quickness.

3- blade call needs to be faster when hitting the target and when comming back its slow and can easily be avoided if some one just moved or at least increase its damage.

4- unstable bladestorm is so slow i really dont think its worth using causes its slow and does not do alot of damage i know its and AOE but still its so weak and slow it needs to be faster and increase its damage but the main problem is that its so slow.

5- phantasms health needs to be increased or make rhe immune to damage until the finish their actions beacuase in WvW and PvP the get interrupted or die before finishing or even before starting their action so if they die immediately then i can not generate blades and i wont be able to use them in WvW and PvP also the if you made the phantasms invulnerable until they finish their attacks it will help when we use the trait that allows the phantasm to throw a dagger after attacking but if phantasms die then this trait will not be used by any one.

Edited December 2, 2021 by fadico.9613

[Jalad Lantana.3027]

I often play a Mirage Mesmer and I tried out the Virtuoso.  I don't PVP, WvW, or run group instances.

I found the Virtuoso just kind of  "meh".   All it offered was a slightly different play style, but the effectiveness was about the same as my Mirage.  Other than a different play style mechanic (which did not appeal to me), I don't see it bringing anything to the table that is an improvement or growth of the class.  I will be sticking with my Mirage for now.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Jalad Lantana.3027
level 7 romboid alignment adjustment

[Chrolo.8536]

17 hours ago, Palomar.4607 said:

Total newbie perspective here, but, in theory, I would love a Mesmer specialization option like Virtuoso, that basically removes the eternal "do I shatter these clones now, or keep them around a little longer for defense?" question and just allows me to always use Shatters without any worry. 

But without clones, where does my Mesmer survivability come from now? From blocks from F4 Shatter and aegis? So is Bladeturn Refrain basically mandatory? And arguably Illusions by extension for more Shatters to give you your blocks? I also tried to further synergize with Lesser Phantasmal Defender from Inspiration, but it doesn't seem to reliably proc from aegis blocks, nor reliably take aggro, on occasions when it does actually show up. Only the Phantasmal Defender skill proper seems to always work.

Or am I just deluding myself with block, and Virtuoso is supposed to be just a very fragile ranged DPS, in exchange for no clone hassle? 

If so, then Dagger is not a very good ranged weapon. Only the third skill is at least fun to use. The first two skills seem both very underpowered and just boring - even compared to Scepter, let alone Greatsword.

 

You're not the only one asking these questions. I think most of don't really see the theme/point of this spec. If they wanted to make a cloneless, ranged, shatter-focused, pure-dps spec - yes, I am on board with that! But then you have to actually design it that way. Beginning from the traits, to the weapon, to the mechanic and how it all fits in with core. That vision is just not realized by the current iteration. And worst, the changes from bw1 to bw4 did not adress these issues in any way. Which signals to me, that the devs have a completly different vision for Virtuoso. But I wonder what it is?

[Tseison.4659]

16 hours ago, Nimeroni.5612 said:

I think that you have 3 ways of improving your survivability when playing Virtuoso :

• Go for Inspiration, pick Restorative Illusions + Illusionary Inspiration +  Signet of the Ether (e.g. inspiration x22). You'll heal each time you stock a blade (illusionary inspiration + signet) and each time you use your songs (restorative illusions). You stock blade fast enough that this will give you quite a bit of passive self healing.
• Go for Chaos, pick Illusionary Defense + Bountiful Disillusionment (e.g. chaos 2x3). You'll get -25% suffered damage, and stability from songs, as well as a lot of regen.
• In Virtuoso, pick Bladeturn Refrain + Duelist's Reversal + Psychic Riposte (e.g. virtuoso 111), then play with scepter + sword for their block skills (scepter 2 and sword 4). This will provide a lot of Aegis (and Quickness for good measure), and generally a lot of block.

You can play with any number of them, and picking all 3 pretty much turn you into a tank. I personally only run the Inspiration line, because I like virtuoso 333 (you dish out so. many. wounds. if you can get to 100% crit chance).

 

Heya! Just to clarify because the first hour of Beta 4 I too tested a more defensive build and the illusionary defence got nerfed, likely to compensate for the amount of blades we stack. So the damage reduction in game is -2% stacking up to 5 times and no longer -5%. Same with Compounding power as I did two different builds; one with Illusion + Chaos and then another with Chaos + Inspiration. If Virtuoso had a bit more damage mods or if they didn’t get their damage reduced, it could’ve worked, atleast for me, but as it stands, even with marauders and sometimes mixing a few defensive accessories, your damage is low and I didn’t find the high up time of illusionary defence that noticeable.

[Caid.4932]

I kind of enjoyed messing with dual swords and the aegis traits but it feels like a kind of weak core mesmer overall.

I'm using shatters in melee range so they aren't really noticably different from core shatters outside of being weaker basically. They're not unique enough from the default shatters and f3 in particular feels much weaker. Doesn't really change my gameplay.

Dagger is simply bad, i gave up on it as a long range weapon and was using it more as a mid range shortbow kind of weapon, which seems closer to its purpose but its still pretty underwhelming, its damage is weak and it has nothing else going for it. One suggestion i have for it would be dagger 3 dropping a stationary aoe at your feet and a backward hop / evade out of it - something similar to ranger shortbow 3 i think it is. Just give it a bit of mobility and ease of use, give it a half second of evade maybe to trigger traits. It feels irrelevant for most of its duration at the moment.

Utilites still feel weak overall. Think the distortion one is a necessity for survival but at a 60 second cd it doesn't feel particularly strong. Cant really fit in the damage based ones as theres too little survivability, mobility or utility elsewhere in the kit. Stun Break is far too long a cooldown to be desirable, knockback could potentially be a fun and interesting quirk but im not sure a stun break is the best place for it.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Caid.4932

[SoulGuardian.6203]

Just like the fact that finally I'm able to replace clones.

So for that, thanks ANet.

 

Edit:

I've been playing this class.

The class is fun.

I'm having a blast with it.

I really like the skills.

In fact, it is one of the most fun classes up to this point.

 

I'm looking foward for this one. Defo.

No complaints from me ANet.

 

Good work.

Keep it up.

Edited December 2, 2021 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Caid.4932]

A way to reset shatters would be a nice option in this spec. The distortion utility resetting the cooldown of f4 would be a nice bonus effect, not that it really needs it but just random idea.

[Ludovide.1967]

After playing a bit more, I have some updated feedback. Mainly that, if they are going to remove the condi dps traitline, they should make the traits focus on ranged dps vs melee dps. Dual swords with blocking and the cloud of daggers from f4 is a lot of fun in melee, and sniping enemies with f1 is a lot of fun at ranged.

I'm editing this to say that I really hope they don't get rid of the condi traitline, I find it incredibly fun and would hate to lose it. I feel that, beyond the issue where you cannot stock blades at max, I would be happy with the spec is.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Ludovide.1967

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Just like the fact that finally I'm able to replace clones.

So for that, thanks ANet.

 

Edit:

I've been playing this class.

The class is fun.

I'm having a blast with it.

I really like the skills.

In fact, it is one of the most fun classes up to this point.

 

I'm looking foward for this one.

Defo it is going to replace my mirage... as much as I like it.

No complaints from me ANet.

 

Good work ANet.

Keep it up.

Yup, amazing spec. 

I'm not playing it but killing it it's so easy I'm also having a blast.

The ragdoll animation when a Virt drops dead it's so cool! 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[SoulGuardian.6203]

7 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Yup, amazing spec. 

I'm not playing it but killing it it's so easy I'm also having a blast.

The ragdoll animation when a Virt drops dead it's so cool! 

Well.

Maybe, it's just not your thing.

... or maybe, you're just not very good at it.

 

I've had no trouble whatsoever eliminating mobs quickly, with little to none health loss.

Defo quicker than some existing E.S.

 

So, I don't know what you're complaining about.

Sorry if I don't use sarcasm.

But I don't beat around the bush.

Sorry if I don't write essays with a ton of unecessary info.

When a simple "I really like this class, and find no issues with it" will suffice. 

 

I'm so sorry that I don't flood the forums criticising everything ANet does. 

When they occasionally need to read praise and that they are actually doing a good job.

 

If this class is not for you, just don't play it my friend.

May I remind you that it is in fact still in beta testing. 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Shiyo.3578]

PvP/WvW perspective:

Why is our F4 a block? Blocks are nowhere near as good as distortion and we have traits that synergize with distortion. Change it to distortion.

Our f1-f3 cast times are too long(should be instant imo) and too easy to cancel. I've never had issues accidentally cancelling my shatters on other mesmer specs, but I do it 24/7 on this one. It's also too difficult to LAND your shatters compared to other mesmer specs, you can actually miss, and hitting people in melee range is a headache where you get your shatter cancelled from people moving. You can also be blocked by projectile reflect/deflects when other mesmer specs can't, and your shatters aren't even scarier to make up for this.

The utilities are worse than signets and manipulations, with only the distortion one being really useful.

 

Overall, this is a downgrade from base mesmer in every single way. Please make our f1-f3's instant, unblockable, and our f4 distortion. Please look at the utilities and add at least 1 more usable PvP/wvw one.

An elite spec shouldn't be a downgrade from specs we've already had for 5+ years.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Shiyo.3578

[Nimeroni.5612]

2 hours ago, Caid.4932 said:

A way to reset shatters would be a nice option in this spec. The distortion utility resetting the cooldown of f4 would be a nice bonus effect, not that it really needs it but just random idea.

You can already reset songs with Signet of Illusions. It's... not enough. At all. A Virtuoso 3x3 can keep all songs on cooldown even with the signet, and still have blades to spare.

3 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Why is our F4 a block?

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say so that it would work with Virtuoso x11 ?
(just a guess, I'm not a PVP/WvW player)

Edited December 2, 2021 by Nimeroni.5612

[OriOri.8724]

35 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Well.

Maybe, just maybe, you're not feeling it.

... or maybe, you're just a bad player.

 

I've had no trouble whatsoever eliminating mobs quickly, with little to none health loss.

Defo quicker than some existing E.S.

 

So, I don't know what you're complaining about.

Sorry if I don't use sarcasm.

But I don't beat around the bush.

Sorry if I don't write essays with a ton of unecessary info.

When a simple "I really like this class, and find no issues with it" will suffice. 

 

I'm so sorry that I don't flood the forums criticising everything ANet does. 

When they occasionally need to read praise and that they are actually doing a good job.

 

If this class is not for you, just don't play it my friend.

May I remind you that it is in fact still in beta testing. 

 

 

No class has trouble eliminating mobs quickly in PvE. If that's really the best argument you have for virtuoso being well designed I don't know what to tell you.

 

Mesmer mains are criticizing virtuoso not to be mean to ANet (which seems to be what you're implying?), but because we can see how much potential this spec has if the work is put into it to make it cohesive and have a better design. The idea behind virtuoso is great, a mesmer without dealing with clones, and a dedicated long range power DPS spec. The implementation of that idea is simply not good. As it stands now, virtuoso is half baked, and its strongest synergies with core mesmer are in a support traitline, on a spec that is supposed to be nothing but pure, selfish damage. That points to the design being grossly unfinished and unpolished.

 

Does that mean you aren't allowed to enjoy the spec? No, you're free to enjoy it. But you enjoying it does not a good spec make

[Shiyo.3578]

On 11/7/2021 at 12:34 PM, Alpha.1308 said:

but like, seriously, what was virtuoso even designed for?  

 

 

WvW zerg spec that has projectiles when every WvW zerg has perma reflect bubbles. idk.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Shiyo.3578

[Mungo Zen.9364]

50 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

PvP/WvW perspective:

Why is our F4 a block? Blocks are nowhere near as good as distortion and we have traits that synergize with distortion. Change it to distortion.

I was using it as an enabler for the GM trait Psychic Riposte as it generate blades and you can fire an Unblockable Bladesong while F4 is up.  You can, under some circumstances, get 2 unblockable bladesongs during one F4.  Basically, it becomes part of a tanking style build/rotation.

Not to suggest this is good or bad, it's just how the pieces appear to fit together to me.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Mungo Zen.9364

[Salt Mode.3780]

Is someone just spamming the confused emote to everything because they are simply confused at the game?

First off why the hell is a 1200 range dps lacking a disengage ability on their weapon, aegis on shatter should not be the only option for Virtuoso to actually cast a shatter successfully if the spec itself was suppose to be shatter heavy.

Second if this class was suppose to be shatter heavy, why is the shatter CD the same as core? If the damage needs to be lowered for more shatters that's fine, but having more resources needing to be built up then shattering for weaker damage is kinda dumb.

Third you want this class to be a 1200 range yet you promote mid to close range combat with nothing to back up aside for "more minimal damage". This is literally no different then a core, chrono, mirage in close range shatter to make sure clones land, but at least we know that damage is there.

Lastly for PvE, the the hell did you nerf the damage when the damage itself pre-nerfed was mediocre compared to other specs that offers MORE utility towards the over raid dps. As a selfish dps even at 41k is considered low and now its even lower at 38k. Oh and the fact that kitten misses on small hitbox is quite hilarious. Mind that these "benchmark" is on a golem that doesn't move.

Sadly Anet will ignore all forms of feedback and trolls will come in and out to say how great it is, in which case there is no difference in how WoW turned out the way it did, only difference is there is no sexual harassment cases.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Rimour.9260]

Virtuoso | Weapon: Dagger (main hand)  | Skills: Psionics | Playstyle: Range DPS

The Virtuoso is the perfect Elite Specialization for those who want a DPS build for their Mesmer. With the exception being the sword main/off-hand and torch, all the weapons for this profession have range abilities. This playstyle worked well will core Mesmer and its other  Elite Specializations because of the clone mechanic, which increased Mesmer's survivability during combat. However, with the Virtuoso players will lose their clone mechanic and will have to focus on others ways to survive in combat.

After playing different game modes, I found the Virtuoso to be enjoyable. For my build, I ran full Berserker gear with Greatsword / dagger + pistol. I used skills and traits that focus on stealth to escape or Ambush enemies. The damage output took me by surprised as I was able to drop player's in WvW to 10% HP after stealth ambushing them with  Bladesong and Greatsword skills. 

Overall: 5 / 5

[Ombras.2853]

Berserker gear in WvW. Okay.

[Widmo.3186]

PvP/WvW perspective:

Okay so, first of all, Virtuoso is the only elite that gave me fun, others were either both useless and boring, or even disgusting (/wave Catalyst). I kinda like the concept, its nothing special, but as former Mage glad in WoW, it gives nostalgic vibe. Anyway:

- I like the damage, but sustain is terrible. Class gives you fun for 30 minutes and then constant PTSD because of some stupid changes u made to mesmer (or rather from mesmer to Virtuoso). Mobility is also bad unless you take certain trait.
- F1 has good damage, but it tends to miss. Maybe make it faster cast or faster projectile speed? Idk
- F2 same, good damage, Id like to see default cripple on it.
- F3 is just terrible. Its interrupt, and thats it. Damage is awful, everything is pretty much awful.

- F4 is the worst of those 4. Block is scuffed, you dont know when it blocks, what it blocks, how it blocks, when it deals damage, when it doesnt deal damage, when channel ends, when starts, when u can cast sth else mid-channel etc. Its both scuffed in terms of damage and in terms of sustain. Redesign would be good.

- Utilities? Everything sucks except Blade Renewal, because it gives distortion that you cut from F4. Rest can go to trashcan and no1 is gonna see any difference.
- Traits are not bad, I like the changes youve made, especially Psychic Riposte.


Overall, what it lacks? Sustain and slightly mobility. While I can live without default given mobility and just kite people by outplaying them, sustain would be appreciated. No proper F4 hurts, same as lack of any condi cleanse. No, for real, beta atm is so bad because you didnt give Cleansing Sigil, that one condi too much can easily kill you. A trait/utility/sth from Virtuoso that cleanses condis would be nice.

Imo Virtuoso is close to being playable, especially compared to some other specs that should be straight up deleted and created from scratch (again, /wave Catalyst). Polish it up and maybe Ill even consider buying xpac lol.
 

PS: Didnt say a thing about dagger because imo its just stupid and doesnt provide anything interesting. Most of the time spent on GS+Sw/t

Edited December 2, 2021 by Widmo.3186

[Senqu.8054]

10 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

its nothing special, but as former Mage glad in WoW, it gives nostalgic vibe.
 

This precisely circumscribes, why this ESpec and class is now utterly garbage.

[Infusion.7149]

About the F3...

Unblockable should have been 100% of the time on bladesong dissonance which is meant as a CC skill especially in PVP/WVW. Because it carries 1.0 coefficient it wouldn't matter even if the damage was reduced to 0.01 coefficient in competitive modes : the scaling with blades exists for daze duration. If it doesn't receive unblockable perhaps it can fire blades with 0.5s daze per blade so it cuts right through aegis (on firebrands , core guardian in PVP, and now bladesworn) or attack based blocks (such as catalyst's immutable stone , condi mirages using scepter's illusionary counter, shield of wrath on guardian, or protector's strike on guardian mace). Then it would scale with blades better similar to how core mesmer gains extra value from clones beyond CC duration. From my testing even with multiple blades all it does is hit once with Bladesong dissonance currently which means you waste a 38s cooldown and all blade damage for possibly no damage or CC whatsoever if blocked. In PVE , up to 5 dazes would also mean it is almost as strong CC-wise as Darkrazor's daring on renegade while maintaining a far higher cooldown, which is the typical comparison for PvE defiance bar levels.

----
WVW specific:

In WVW rain of swords does far less than well of suffering which is unblockable on necromancers. Why? I don't think you'll see rain of swords in PVP at all because you'll need sustain utilities / stunbreak. It can probably be unsplit after the PVE damage dropped , use 0.8 coefficient in all modes per tick. The swords raining down animation is nearly impossible to miss whereas well of corruption merely has a ground effect with a black puddle in the middle.


Unstable bladestorm (dagger 3) is still slow as molasses with a huge tell. Unless cast at nearly point blank range I doubt it will hit anything that is a live player.