Harbinger Feedback Thread [Merged]

[nopoet.2960]

I was wondering if the heal should convert blight into lifeforce. 

Also wondering if elixirs would be more interesting as ammo skills.

Edited August 20, 2021 by nopoet.2960

[Allium Cepa.6927]

I spent some time today going through all the feedback replies here and tried to tally up the main points people had. Do note that this just represents over all feelings and doesn't address the nuance for some of the points.
 

Feedback point	Number of times suggested
Shroud 5 needs a little improvement	5
Shroud 3 and 4 need more damage/movement impairment cleanse	3
Shroud overshadows non shroud skills	1
Shroud is fun	21
Shroud skills lack focus	4
Shroud needs utility skill access or built in support skills	3
Elixirs are boring/bad	84
Elixirs are mostly good	4
Pistol range needs 1200	4
Pistol is fun	18
Pistol is weak/boring	28
Concentration feels required	3
Power setup is too weak	33
Boon support is good	2
Boon support setup is too easy/op	2
Boon support setup is lacking	6
Condition damage setup is good	2
Condition damage is redundant	1
Harbinger needs fear	10
Change torment to poison	15
Keep torment	2
Blight needs to do more	28
Blight needs better management tools	16
Blight risk/reward isn't significant enough	18
Blight benefits need to be built in, not dependent on a trait	8
Blight needs to benefit support	7
Life force generation is too low	13
Life force generation is too high	1
DPS (condi) too high	5
DPS at a good spot	5
DPS too low	3
Survivability is too high	6
Survivability is at a good spot	10
Survivability is too low	12
Twisted Medicine needs more AOE	1
Dhuumfire too weak	2
Dhuumfire is too strong	1
Top trait line (power) is bad	8
Middle trait line (support) is bad	3
Grand master traits are boring/bad	20
Grand master traits are fine	1
Trait lines should not be so focused for condi/power/support	13
Adept traits need changes	3
Animations are good	1
Animations are bad/boring	7
Better visuals to show blight stacks	15
Harbinger is over all fun	28
Harbinger is over all boring	17

 

[Chapell.1346]

Disappointing, should had been Stealth reliance. 

[Aravind.9610]

I prefer Torment remain on Harbinger instead of Poison which is useless compared to Torment in PvE content.

[LucKreck.8724]

28 minutes ago, Aravind.9610 said:

I prefer Torment remain on Harbinger instead of Poison which is useless compared to Torment in PvE content.

But isn't that fixable by adjusting the amount and duration of the poison application, should it be changed from torment?

[Every day pon.5386]

Generally overperforming as most Necromancers: pistol autoattack deals over 2x ranged damage (900 yards) & condition stacks than melee weapons (~130 yards) from other classes. Has unlimited Quickness (broken) with almost no Concentration. Maximum boon spam Elite is uninspiring class design. Maximum hue saturation is poor graphic design like Icebroon Saga

[Sigmoid.7082]

6 minutes ago, LucKreck.8724 said:

But isn't that fixable by adjusting the amount and duration of the poison application, should it be changed from torment?

You can't ignore the healing cut poison has.  -33% healing is huge. 

[LucKreck.8724]

2 minutes ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

You can't ignore the healing cut poison has.  -33% healing is huge. 

True, but I'd say that the scaling would be split between PvP/PvE right? I don't know just exactly how big of an impact the healing cut has in PvE

[Kiazz.1625]

I love the Pistol skills! I didn't use the elixirs much. The elite elixir is nice. Great play style. Elixirs would be used on a specific condition base where they would be most impactful. General playstyle, kind of useless. However, I am a overall fan of passive effects, minions, and pets in general. Felt like a great offensive tank! 

[Master Ketsu.4569]

On 8/19/2021 at 5:57 AM, Galmac.4680 said:

Shroud-5 would be nicer if it stays with you, not as fixed ground target. In WvW it is quite useless.

Nah the shroud 5 is good you just have to not be bad at deciding where to place it. Needing things to follow you to be usable is a l2p issue no offense. 

 

 

[King ThunderMonkey.6794]

I will preface this with I typically do open world and the occasional dungeon, typically duo-ing  them with my wife rather than a full party.

 

There are far too many times where life force generation during a boss-type fight grinds to a halt. While I realize that it's not meant to be like Reaper wherein we're trying to stay in shroud for as long as possible as often as possible, it just seems odd to me that I have to have Soul Reaping: Eternal Life and Signet of Undeath to be able to use shroud more than once in a prolonged encounter.

 

Elixir of Bliss seems like a great idea, but pistol lacks the self-harm mechanic of base daggers, so you have to fill your bar with Corruptions or hope whatever you're fighting pukes on you for it to be effective or even useful.

 

Shroud 4: Voracious Arc is a really fun and situationally  useful skill, but it feels out of place with everything else being mid-ranged attacks. It has some nice synergy with Vital Draw, but why make it a 2-step process? I would prefer the reticle on Vital Draw and make Voracious Arc a non-mobile ranged daze so I don't have to charge into a puddle of crap while I've got multiple stacks of Blight to break a bar. The spec is simply too fragile (particularly compared to other necro specs) to be flung into harm's way like that.

 

In encounters with multiple lesser mobs, the spec feels almost god-like. Good AoE and sustained damage make tearing through the trash a breeze. But on bigger targets, where condi builds are supposed to shine, it feels severely handicapped without taking specific traits from other specs.

Edited August 21, 2021 by King ThunderMonkey.6794

[Bazaakaaa.4971]

Feedback on the graphic/visual aspects for Harbinger.

Elixir Icon Design

I think the elixirs need to have varying icon designs (like engineers' elixir icons) instead of just having the same icon but with colour variation. Not only is it a bit tough to differentiate the colours, but visually it looks boring and undynamic. Often times I found myself struggling to remember which elixir is which.

Varying icon design should apply to all other upcoming elite specialisations as well.

Blight Display Design

Having to calculate health loss from Blight in the middle of battle is not very feasible. Perhaps Blight health loss could be indicated by a different colour in the HP bar (without the minus sign, the different-coloured HP number says it all) while the HP is decreasing. Just as with Scourge having a yellowish add-on to the HP bar to indicate shields, I think Blight needs something like that too.

Gameplay

I don't think I can feedback on this since I'm not great at mechanics but... To me it didn't really feel too underwhelming (I only played for a few hours) however it feels like dual pistols could bring up the fun a little bit more? Maybe?

Also please consider adding different sound effects for pistol and rifle for all the different classes, it was so nice to hear a different rifle sound with Deadeye instead of the generic rifle sound. I can also tell right off the bat which class/elite spec is being used. You guys should experiment and play with weapon sounds more!

Edited August 21, 2021 by Bazaakaaa.4971

[Aravind.9610]

6 hours ago, LucKreck.8724 said:

True, but I'd say that the scaling would be split between PvP/PvE right? I don't know just exactly how big of an impact the healing cut has in PvE

The healing cut is useless in PvE. But the standing still damage of Torment is amazing since most bosses don't move or at the very least don't move much.

[Lily.1935]

A bug I've noticed is that transfusion doesn't always seem to trigger when using Voracious Arc all the time. It does work some times but it seems random.

[Naneel.2348]

Not really impressed by the new Spec. As a Necro main I hoped for something more. As it is now I am not really hyped to get it.

Pistol is okay damage wise, but really boring. Mostly torment and the skills feel all the same. No real visual distinction.

Shroud seems fun, skillwise. Skill 2 could use a better animation : character animation and "bullet"-arc do not really align. Two gapcloser seem a lot for a ranged spec. Either turn one into an escape or rebuild harbinger for melee/close range.

Elixiers are relativly boring and not very necroish. Maybe let the Necro spit some "venom" in a cone after drinking an Elixier, dealing varoius conditions, depending on the Elixier you drank. Or let us mix better effects by drinking different Elixiers. Necro ist already a "passiv" class to play, don't make it worse with one-click buffs.

For the overall theme I suggest you decide what it should really be. While a pistol can fit an Alchemist Theme, I had hoped for a more Demon Hunter/Van Hellsing/Exorcist theme with pistols. Also Shroud skills and Pistol don't fit for me aesthetically, Shroud looking more KungFu/Bender style, which is great, just doesn't align with pistol.

Blight seems to punishing, since we already loose Shroud HP. The visuals also need a rework, they remind me off the chak globber....

 

[Caid.4932]

I think i prefer the power version of this. Its definitely weaker but i think i just like axe and dagger main hand as alt weapons much more than the condi choices. I find on condi i'm just camping pistol between shrouds, i can switch to scepter but it feels like its doing the same thing, staff is situational and fine but not going to get used often.

Switching to axe to fire off a fear when enemies get close or just to mix up the range your fighting at and using the life force regen and cleave on dagger to top up shroud faster or get some regen from life force feels more interesting choices.

To be honest i think the condi version of the class is overtuned and the power version is probably closer to a solid spot. Damage could do with being moved around a bit, pistol is a bit undertuned as a power weapon but the overall build feels solid damage wise.

[LucianDK.8615]

Changing torment to poison damage would probably serve well to rein in the too high condi damage. But on the other hand the power damage should be increased.

[Yumesaki.7082]

Weapon skills

Pistol

Pistol feels very weak for power damage and is not really good for wvw.

 

Utilities

(Heal) Elixir of Promise - feels really good as a proactive heal to gain vigor and lifeforce after exiting shroud, this helps with the flow of going in and out of shroud.

 

(Utility) Elixir of Bliss - feels like it could remove less conditions, because a 40 second cd in wvw is too long, and it feels weird having blight that lasts 25s on a long cooldown longer than 30 seconds

 

(Stun Break) Elixir of Ignorance - feels really strong being able to break stun and ignore immobilize is nice, if it gets nerfed, reduce the duration of resistance in wvw.

 

(Elite) Elixir of Ambition - this feels great to use to get out of difficult situations or if you are setting up to do lots of damage, if it gets nerfed could reduce the stacks of might and stability, or add more blight. Reducing the boon duration or increasing the cooldown would feel bad.

 

Shroud

(1) Tainted Bolts - feels really powerful to use this skill

 

(2) Dark Barrage - feels really good to use this skill

- hard to cast this spell without a target, your camera angle will cause you to cast it into the ground right in front of you, this feels really bad since it is a big part of your burst damage.

- skill queuing this right after devouring cut (shroud 3) can cause it not to cast when you have a target.

 

(3) Devouring Cut - this skill feels good to use for movement

- Using this skill with a target can cause you to go inside the enemy hit box.

- using this skill and then trying to que another skill sometimes causes the skill you queued to fail and leaves you standing there not doing anything.

-might need to fix this so that it behaves similar to the daredevil staff 2 skill

 

(4) Voracious Arc - this skill feels great to move around with.

 

(5) Vital Draw - sometimes the animation for this skill doesn’t appear and it’s hard to tell if it has activated.

- this skill seems too strong for a 20s cd, it would still feel good with a 35s cd any longer and it might not feel as good because it is hard to land, and easy to break out of.

 

Traits

Minor

Dark Disciple - It took me a while to understand that I was getting healed while out of shroud by consuming lifeforce.

- maybe make this effect the 2nd minor trait and move the vitality increase to the 1st minor trait, so it’s more apparent that this is an effect that happens with harbinger

 

Adept

Wicked Corruption - this trait feels like it’s missing something, maybe shroud 3 now creates a delayed necrotic explosion at the impact location.

 

Vile Vials - Instead of applying conditions, have blight increase boon duration or incoming healing (0.5-1% per blight stack).

 

Grandmaster

Deathly Haste - this trait should increase concentration 120-180 (8-12% boon duration) in addition to what it currently does.

[eyestrain.3056]

Visually I find it very confusing to see another player's HP bar replaced with shroud in harbinger. Using the same shroud hp bar as core or reaper doesn't make as much sense when seeing how much shroud they have is far less impactful than seeing how much HP they have. The visually dominant bar should be HP again since it's what you're actually hitting. You can technically still see their hp, but it's such a tiny sliver below it doesn't read clearly in game and I found myself regularly being shocked when one fell over dead with full shroud bar.

 

Also agreeing that the elixirs are completely underwhelming for group play since you can share the boons but not the effects. Even heavily investing into boon duration and the elixir traits, which sacrifices damage or other personal buffs, other specs can just do the boon support better. The aesthetics of kit icons are also staggeringly boring. I get wanting it to look tidy and consistent but it comes away flavorless.

[Vova.2640]

make elixirs apply their effect also if traited for "boon share"
by that I mean let us stun break allies also, let us cleanse allies with the cleanse elixir etc.
Obv shouldnt apply for the healing skill heal effect to affect allies (that'd be a bit op)
also the stun break elixir should give like 3 stacks of stab for 5sec.
that might make harbinger viable in wvw zerg setup as a boon/cc/corrupt bot with a bit of dmg.

[ReaverKane.7598]

So, having not really experienced Harbinger as it should due to lack of access to proper runes for it (really should have tormenting there, or something as suggested here) i can say i have mixed feelings on it.

I'm not mentioning PvP or WvW in my feedback, since i've not engaged enough (or at all in sPvP's case) with those game types to give a proper opinion. I've ran the class through T4 fractals and did some open world play as well as a bit of golem bashing initially.

So i've tried it in two ways: a Plaguedoctor build for hybrid condi and support, and a Viper's build for full DPS. Results varied...

First impressions:
So the plaguedoctor felt a bit underwhelming. Sure i can output a ton of quickness, and a good amount of power and fury, but it doesn't get near a condi quikbrand in terms of dps (although, i didn't have proper runes to test, so it might get closer). It has decent enough uptime for quickness with minimum effort, but that's as far as it will be with support.

The condi dps build felt extremely overtuned, to the point where in T4 fractals, without tormenting runes i was almost even with a scourge. It didn't feel as squishy as i thought it would, but at the same time it was

 

Weapon Skills:
Pistol skills are very strong with what seems too much torment for the current meta, the tendency carries over to the shroud, which makes condition damage the only real way to go, which basically makes 1/3 of traits kind of useless.
I think shunting part of the torment application to a trait interaction with blight might make it more interesting.

 

Elixirs
Elixirs felt a bit more underwhelming than expected...  Especially the elite. Even with extra concentration, the duration isn't enough to make it anything more than a meme... I'd rather see it have less boons on it, but with more effective durations, i mean its just not worth the slot or the 10 blight on it.
The lack of offensive elixirs (as in toss an elixir to poison your enemy is also somewhat negative, especially since the class is not really great to play as a support, since it gets a bit outclassed by Firebrand. But at least that gives us easier room to get core skills in there without having to ponder too much.
Also i feel  that Twisted Medicine should make elixirs ground targetted instead of centred on you (which would open up the class a bit more for the support role).

Shroud

Shroud is fun, the extra mobility is amazing, the damage portion of the skills are super strong, and that CC skill is one of the strongest CCs available for necro, which is nice.

 

Traits

I like the division between power, condi and support, i think all classes should have this, if they're done in a viable fashion. Sadly in harbinger this isn't the case since the condi side of things is just better, especially with current meta.

If not lets compare the power vs condi traits:

1. Adept, power one gives damage, condi one gives same amount of condi damage PLUS poison on shroud 2, which already had a bunch of torment.
2. Masters are kinda balanced, although it kinda sux that condi gives the pistol stuff...
3. Grandmasters... Its actually kind of a meme... Power does with full exotic zerker gear 562 tooltip damage, and cripple...
   Condi does 3 stacks of torment (for double the power in tooltip damage, with zerker gear, on moving targets), plus weakness, which is better than cripple...
   
   I think adepts should be a bit more inline with each other, maybe by increasing the %damage on the power trait (Wicked Corruption) or add vulnerability on hit to them.
   
   Grandmasters could all have an added effect where pistol and shroud skills change based on which grandmaster.
   So on pistol, you'd remove the damaging conditions on skills 2 and 3 and keep the non-damaging ones for Cascading corruption. The shroud could have extra fury and might on the first 3 skills.
   With Approaching doom, you'd get the shroud as is, and only the damaging condis on pistol.
   With Deathly haste, you'd get quickness and heals on impact on the pistol and shroud, instead of pulsing. Adding heals to shroud with the grandmaster would allow Harbinger to act better as a full support, which lack of proper healing will see them behind Firebrands.
   
   All 3 grandmasters would give the 180 stat bonus, with the support one giving +180 healing power (since concentration is coming from the Master).
   
   TLDR
   Overall after testing it out a bit, and running it through T4 fractals, and some of PoF and HoT open world stuff. Its a fun specialization, the fact that it breaks the mould of the normal necro, and being a more mobile glassy spec (on paper) is really fun. The balance between traits needs some more care, since imo, its all pulling you towards condi damage, between the current meta after the May 11 changes favouring condi damage and torment a lot, and the inherent bias in the damage and benefits on traits and skills, condi is king for Harbinger. I mean it performs well enough to be second dps in T4 fractals without torment runes.
   
   The support spec can be a thing in the future, but it needs some propping up, especially since we already have pretty powerful quickness sources that bring other stuff to the table, although i can see it have some use in PvP situations, which i haven't tested, hence not mentioning. Some trait tweaks to give it some healing or something similar might be just what it needs.

 

[jhern.6097]

After playing a bit with it I felt it was OK. The overall the utilities feel lackluster, but I suppose it's the mechanic of the stacking blight that made it most interesting. I don't know how I feel about the pistol. There's a heavy focus on torment. With the recent changes to torment I suppose it won't be overpowered outside of PvE. Even so, I don't think I'll be seeing a lot of harbingers using pistol once the hype is over.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

After more testing, its still very clear that dark disciple needs a big nerf in pvp.

[jhern.6097]

I'm a bit confused. There seems to be a bit of focus on torment but with the recent changes to torment I'm a bit concerned how effective the harbinger will be outside of PvE. The shroud has a great mechanic. That alone adds so much to the lackluster utilities. Overall, the spec seems OK. I feel there should be a way to make more use of the torment. Maybe add some immobilization? Then again, that would boost the damage quite a bit (maybe too much) for those few seconds which may force people to run certain traits or utilities to counter that alone.

[AllDatAngst.4208]

This spec feels like it's doing too much, almost like what Firebrand has turned into. It's got ranged DPS, melee DPS, boons for you, boons for your friends, mobility. Shroud refills super quick so you can spam it continually. Most of the skills had quick cooldowns in an organized comp. Very much a jack of all trades, master of nothing feel for PvE. Having a healer in the comp completely removes the challenge of trading health for damage. It was fun to play but also unsatisfying.

 

And a very personal comment that I think only I care about - the icons for the Harbinger utility/healing/elite skills are disappointing. Engineer elixirs all have their own unique icons, but Harbinger's are the same shape just copy/pasted with different colors.