Harbinger Feedback Thread [Merged]

[Pooh.6897]

11 hours ago, Brujeria.7536 said:

.I really think after seeing the rest of the specs that harbringer simply was not finished. All specs with a significant class mechanic like thief or engie are really centered around that mechanic, a lot of traits and effects to tune enhance or make use of said mechanic. Looking at the interactions of the thiefs shroud with traits: that sone traitline seems sooo much more intuitive and good compared to what scourge and blood magic traits try to be.

Thief and engie remind me a lot of guild wars 1, because of the dual professions you could have in that game. So Thief becomes a Thief/Necro, and Engie becomes an Engie/Ranger. They already revealed that they had the bunny thumper in mind for Ranger, So ranger would become a Ranger/Warrior. 

[TheDevice.2751]

Why not a Rifle?

Could have used a long range power option. 

[TheRealGorthaur.1796]

Super late to this thread, but why didnt Harbinger get dual pistols? That would fit the gunslinger theme much better...

[Obtena.7952]

On 10/29/2021 at 7:56 AM, TheRealGorthaur.1796 said:

Super late to this thread, but why didnt Harbinger get dual pistols? That would fit the gunslinger theme much better...

can't say I got the 'gunslinger' vibe from the spec here. Nothing I read indicates Anet wants to push that theme either. 

Edited October 31, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Tails.9372]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

can't say I got the 'gunslinger' vibe from the spec here. Nothing I read indicates Anet wants to push that theme either

however

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Tails.9372 said:

however

Ah, fair enough ... if the theme lady says, then that makes sense it should be. I didn't get that vibe like I say. I'm not sure just adding another pistol to offhand would do it though. 

[Zenith.7301]

The problem is outside the offhand torch scourge has, necromancer offhands are horribly undertuned for condition damage (and power damage as well).

 

So they make Harbinger, which clearly mainly functions as a condi spec, but without a weapon to properly complement the mainhand pistol.

[Ukon Cairns.9160]

after seeing all 9 i say harbinger is easily top 3 which is a relief. being a necro main that doesnt much like reaper and actively dislikes scourge, harbinger was a breathe of fresh air. 

one of the big things was managing the blight mechanic reminds me of the condi juggling with corruptions i used to love about necro, without the helpful support players interfering.  liking blight so much also kinda ties in with being pretty okay with elixirs, im here to drink whatever is in the lil black bottle labeled "ignorance" 

one criticism, the power traits seems kind of superfluous. the harbinger traits didnt really mix n match the way the mechanist traits do, so personally i would prefer the 3 condi traits, 3 support traits, and 3 interesting utility choices the condi or support builds might choose to dip into. (tho i will admit i bias towards condi dps in general, especially on necro) 

[hoofhearted.2549]

Just here to also state my disappointment with the Harbinger Spec in the hopes ANet is monitoring this and attempts to make changes.

 

The Blight mechanic is boring as it is. Basically a "Thanks for choosing Harbinger, here's a debuff". I'm all for the glass cannon role on Necro, but we need something more than just a debuff. Either Juggling it or spreading it or just something else besides straight debuff.

 

Elixirs are just straight garbage. They don't look cool, they don't do anything cool, my god it was the worst thing they could do. Tool belt wouldn't work as they'd then have to give tool belt skills for everything, but somehow Elixir skills should be able to be thrown or used somehow offensively imo. If not, then they should interact with blight more. Others have suggested that the elixirs and other skills do something additional if you have enough Blight Stacks like Holosmith heat. The class is literally better if you DONT use the class Utility skills lol.

 

Traits are boring. Identical skills just for a different build. That is more unimaginative than the Elixirs. Definitely need to see changes here. I should have more than one option for builds. As a Condi player, its bottom line with nothing else interesting or even plausible whatsoever. 

 

So much needs to change here. Harbinger is by far the laziest Elite they've ever made.

[Dadnir.5038]

13 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

The problem is outside the offhand torch scourge has, necromancer offhands are horribly undertuned for condition damage (and power damage as well).

 

So they make Harbinger, which clearly mainly functions as a condi spec, but without a weapon to properly complement the mainhand pistol.

I think since HoT, it's clear that the goal is that the shroud is the necromancer's everything and what's out of the shroud just need to provide you with enough to go back to the shroud. The low value of what's out of shroud is intended as they fear that the players would just ignore the shroud if what's around is too good.

[Zenith.7301]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I think since HoT, it's clear that the goal is that the shroud is the necromancer's everything and what's out of the shroud just need to provide you with enough to go back to the shroud. The low value of what's out of shroud is intended as they fear that the players would just ignore the shroud if what's around is too good.

 

 

But that's the problem, shroud is nowhere near great enough to compensate for how mediocre the out of shroud toolset is.

 

What's more, Specter shroud is just a better necro shroud, it's so aggravating. Specter doesn't need to land skills or use specific ones to generate shroud. Just spending initiative and using an F1 that applies a whopping amount of slow gives them shroud, their shroud comes with mobility on top of thief's baseline toolkit, and the well s provide more utility than the garbage elixirs or any necromancer spec utility for that matter.

 

Specter is essentially what they said they could never do for necro because necro had shroud. They kept saying they couldn't give necro boons because he was the king of conditions and shroud made them offensive powerhouses, neither is remotely true. Offensive conditions are worthless thanks to the breakbar mechanic in PvE, necro condi dmg isn't even among the highest in the game, only in scenarios where epidemic can be abused, and the necro shroud as evidenced by scourge is nothing but a liability; the scourge desert shroud and barrier mechanic is a far more efficient survival tool in PvE on top of having some access to utility, while reaper and core necro rot in complete lack of utility while doing mediocre damage relative to other classes.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Dadnir.5038]

@Zenith.7301 The grass is always greener in the neighbor lawn. Specter have it's draw backs just like necromancer have it's own.

[Zenith.7301]

1 minute ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

@Zenith.7301 The grass is always greener in the neighbor lawn. Specter have it's draw backs just like necromancer have it's own.

 

And the grass is greener as a matter of fact, or are you going to provide the same retort when told that support tempest is eclipsed by support firebrand? Obviously firebrand does not have an aoe stunbreak or as much condition cleanse, but if you discard these platitudes and do some objective assessment of the whole toolkit in PvE, one is better than the other.

[Wintermute.5408]

8 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

And the grass is greener as a matter of fact, or are you going to provide the same retort when told that support tempest is eclipsed by support firebrand? Obviously firebrand does not have an aoe stunbreak or as much condition cleanse, but if you discard these platitudes and do some objective assessment of the whole toolkit in PvE, one is better than the other.

I don't like Specter shroud. It feels too much like core shroud, and I always hated that one. Can't say I like HB shroud much either, but at least it's different from usual. Mobility on specter is the same taste of kitten as on core shroud. Both have extremely delayed CC and fear. The specter shroud doesn't belong on necro, because that's what we had literally since release.

Is the grass actually greener for them? Both specs deals OP damage. Both have valued boons now (hurray). Where HB support is simply unispired, Specter is ambitious, but clunky and bugged up the kitten. Regardless of my stance on HB, I don't think we have it any worse than Specter. We're just boring -_-

Edited November 2, 2021 by Wintermute.5408

[Zenith.7301]

1 hour ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

I don't like Specter shroud. It feels too much like core shroud, and I always hated that one. Can't say I like HB shroud much either, but at least it's different from usual. Mobility on specter is the same taste of kitten as on core shroud. Both have extremely delayed CC and fear. The specter shroud doesn't belong on necro, because that's what we had literally since release.

Is the grass actually greener for them? Both specs deals OP damage. Both have valued boons now (hurray). Where HB support is simply unispired, Specter is ambitious, but clunky and bugged up the kitten. Regardless of my stance on HB, I don't think we have it any worse than Specter. We're just boring -_-

 

Harbinger won't be dealing much damage specced for quickness as an alacrity thief, and quickness as utility is inferior to alacrity utility because HB as a healer is so far above as a quickness source and as a healer over any possible competitions, whereas there was no real competition to renegade as an alacrity source outside confusion bosses, and alacrity specter does far more damage than renegade and provides better CC and group utility than alacrity mirage.

[Asum.4960]

On 11/1/2021 at 6:04 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

@Zenith.7301 The grass is always greener in the neighbor lawn. Specter have it's draw backs just like necromancer have it's own.

Comparing them for PvE at least (although I doubt other modes will fare much differently):

 

DPS:

Both Specter and Harbinger have already been Benched at around 45k DPS (with Specter having potential for ~52k DPS with ally targeting, although that looks obnoxious to play), both get there primarily through Torment, so fairly even there. 

 

Specter is 11k HP Base, Medium Armor with a 150% HP scaling damage absorbing Shroud, a Trait granting a full party heal and Barrier every ~8 seconds that's a DPS increase to use and up to 28% passive damage reduction from (also DPS increasing) Traits (Strength of Shadows, 14-20% being fairly realistic). 

Harbinger is, essentially, 11k HP Base, Light Armor, non damage absorbing 69% scaling Shroud, 0% passive damage mitigation, a 0.5 second evade that's a DPS loss to use. Has Epi for extra cleave.

 

That leaves DPS Specter with over 300% more effective HP than Harbinger and party support exceeding pre-nerf DPS Scourge, while doing the same or more DPS as Harbinger. Especially for Fractals with Instabilities such as Frailty (resulting in Harbinger having ~3k HP with Blight), one of these is going to be downstate half of the time under pressure, while the other one looks like a powerhouse.

 

Support: 

Now I still think Anet is going to cull back 10 target support skills to 5 now that we have more supports capable of providing essentially mandatory boons without having mirror comps, but even if not, Specter has a decent chance to compete with Renegade (and even Ren+FB) for 5 player content at least. 

Doing perma Alacrity, minor Might, perma Fury, Vigor and Swiftness as well as some uptime on every other boon like Prot via Bounty and having reasonable CC while still doing pretty good damage - or even the option to go full Support, also do Perma Quickness and mass AoE heals and Barriers, on top of vast skipping potential via Shadow Step/Portal puts Specter is a pretty good support spot that could find it's audience, especially in the hands of skilled players.

 

Harbinger does Quickness and decent DPS. That's pretty much it. If you want to do any other boons with reasonable uptime via Elixirs you need way too much Concentration, Utility and Trait investment costing you just about all your damage. 

It also has hardly any or at least far less Utility to compete with FB, be it in Aegis, Stability, Projectile Mitigation, Condition Cleanse, emergency healing and still less skip potential etc. It will without question always be a fairly sizeable net negative to run. Nice Quickness option to have for very casual play, but that's about it.

 

General Play/OW:

This is where the both are probably the most even, although much of the above still applies ofc. 

Both do fairly even self-buffed DPS, both can play largely ranged and kite, both have reasonable build in CC in their Kit. I'd say the main difference being Harbinger having more cleave potential via Epi and Specter being far more durable under pressure. 

 

I'd also note though that from a core kit perspective, Thief is largely build around Mobility, Stealth and Blinds and such, all of which Specter maintains the strengths (or gets even more) of, while Necromancer is largely build around soaking damage via Shroud (and more minorly, Fear interactions), which Harbinger pretty much completely loses. The strengths Harbinger gets in return for that massive loss, such as one more mobility skill and evade, still pale in comparison to what Specter maintains by default from it's core. 

Additionally, even if you want to counteract Harbinger's squishyness though gear, every point of Vitality you invest into it is only worth 5 HP due to Blight, while for Specter every point of Vit is 25 HP due to a 150% scaling Shroud (+5 effective HP from passive damage mitigation through Strength of Shadows), aka 6 times the value.

 

 

So no, I don't think this is just a "grass is greener on the other side" for Harbinger vs Specter. 

While they both go for the edgy ranged/mobile damage/support caster, one of them is clearly superior in just about every single way.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Lily.1935]

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

 

The damage bonuses from Wicked corruption and Septic corruption should either be baseline to the blight mechanic itself or it should be a part of a minor trait. You need to incentivize players to build as much blight as possible. You shouldn't have a possible build in the Harbinger that doesn't benefit from blight in some way.

[Zenith.7301]

3 hours ago, Lily.1935 said:

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

 

The damage bonuses from Wicked corruption and Septic corruption should either be baseline to the blight mechanic itself or it should be a part of a minor trait. You need to incentivize players to build as much blight as possible. You shouldn't have a possible build in the Harbinger that doesn't benefit from blight in some way.

 

 

This. Kind of incredible that right now the blight mechanic baseline is more a hindrance than a boon without traiting for it.

[Asum.4960]

12 hours ago, Lily.1935 said:

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

 

The damage bonuses from Wicked corruption and Septic corruption should either be baseline to the blight mechanic itself or it should be a part of a minor trait. You need to incentivize players to build as much blight as possible. You shouldn't have a possible build in the Harbinger that doesn't benefit from blight in some way.

It's still strange to me how blinded people are to looking at actual design by, in this case Damage, numbers (and how easily you can hide massive stat reductions via percentages).

 

I still remember the push back Anet got for adding the -300 Toughness, +300 Power; +300 Condition Damage Trait to Berserker's Berserk mode through Fatal Frenzy, with many infuriated by the -300 Toughness component and how "squishy" that would make the 19k HP Heavy Armor spec with warrior as base (aka with various active defense access.). 

 

Yet Harbinger losing it's main profession defense in a damage absorbing Shroud in addition to effectively having -1000 to -2000 Vitality (depending on Vitality investment, since it scales) on one of it's minor Traits with zero benefit unless you Trait for it is just kind of insane to me. 

 

Dark Disciple basically is a -4300 Vitality Trait on something like Vipers/Baseline, and -5500 Vitality on something like Celestial, in terms of effective Health loss if you add together Blight and the lack of Shroud and it's inherent damage reduction, with either zero benefit or +25% condi or strike damage if traited. If that's not an insane Elite Spec tradeoff, then idk.

 

I genuinely think if Harbinger just number/skill coefficient wise had been undertuned (~32k DPS) rather than overtuned (~45k DPS) for the beta, with all the actual design (Traits, Utilities, Skills) being the exact same, this thing would have been ripped to shreds as the worst of the worst by the community. 

But apparently all you need to do as a designer is slapping inflated skill coefficients/condi applications/durations on something and it's good to go.

 

Anyway, I really hope at the very least they reduce Blight to -1% HP per stack and rework Alchemic Vigor to be +1% (or even just 0.5%) all damage per Blight Stack instead (or bake that into Dark Disciple) - and then completely redo Wicked- and Septic Corruption to be more interesting Trait choices. 

That or getting rid of Blight as concept altogether. No damage absorbing Shroud + 0% passive damage mitigation + next to no active damage mitigation (save for a single 0.5 second evade) as well as no Barrier is already more than enough justification for it to be a higher Necro DPS focused spec. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Zenith.7301]

14 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

It's still strange to me how blinded people are to looking at actual design by, in this case Damage, numbers (and how easily you can hide massive stat reductions via percentages).

 

I still remember the push back Anet got for adding the -300 Toughness, +300 Power; +300 Condition Damage Trait to Berserker's Berserk mode through Fatal Frenzy, with many infuriated by the -300 Toughness component and how "squishy" that would make the 19k HP Heavy Armor spec with warrior as base (aka with various active defense access.). 

 

Yet Harbinger losing it's main profession defense in a damage absorbing Shroud in addition to effectively having -1000 to -2000 Vitality (depending on Vitality investment, since it scales) on one of it's minor Traits with zero benefit unless you Trait for it is just kind of insane to me. 

 

Dark Disciple basically is a -4300 Vitality Trait on something like Vipers/Baseline, and -5500 Vitality on something like Celestial, in terms of effective Health loss if you add together Blight and the lack of Shroud and it's inherent damage reduction, with either zero benefit or +25% condi or strike damage if traited. If that's not an insane Elite Spec tradeoff, then idk.

 

I genuinely think if Harbinger just number/skill coefficient wise had been undertuned (~32k DPS) rather than overtuned (~45k DPS) for the beta, with all the actual design (Traits, Utilities, Skills) being the exact same, this thing would have been ripped to shreds as the worst of the worst by the community. 

But apparently all you need to do as a designer is slapping inflated skill coefficients/condi applications/durations on something and it's good to go.

 

Anyway, I really hope at the very least they reduce Blight to -1% HP per stack and rework Alchemic Vigor to be +1% (or even just 0.5%) all damage per Blight Stack instead (or bake that into Dark Disciple) - and then completely redo Wicked- and Septic Corruption to be more interesting Trait choices. 

That or getting rid of Blight as concept altogether. No damage absorbing Shroud + 0% passive damage mitigation + next to no active damage mitigation (save for a single 0.5 second evade) as well as no Barrier is already more than enough justification for it to be a higher Necro DPS focused spec. 

 

 

Not to mention that for some reason necromancer keeps being the single class saddled with heavy trade offs to be able to be a competitive DPS spec while highly survivable DPS specs like daredevil, mesmer, ranger, warrior, and engineer specs don't pay this tax, and besides mesmer have more utility to boot.

 

Reaper is doing an abysmal 32-33k DPS best case scenario while a Quickness scrapper is approaching similar numbers while providing a metric ton more group utility, not to mention actually strong power specs.

 

Hell, even if we leave out all these busted EoD specs like Bladesworn, Specter, and pVirtuoso, necromancer has serious design issues where outside Scourge it has no valuable PvE DPS spec whatsoever, and scourge was supposed to be the support spec, but is actually played as a DPS spec as the only necro spec with competitive damage and due to the fact Scourge utility is highly niche whereas HB/renegade/druid utility is universally mandatory.

 

You would think the offensive debuffer class would offer support boosting ally through lifesteal and offensive boost rather than just being a barrier/rez bot.

[Dschromm.2946]

After the Presentation of the Last three e especs, there's another flaw with the harbinger spec that caught my eye: mobility or the lack thereof.

You sold it to us as the high risk, high reward, mobile necromancer spec by giving us a dash and a leap locked behond the new shroud, which makes us equally mobile to core necro outside shroud.

Untamed: gets shadowstep on pets on a very low CD, next to the rangers already high mobility from core.

Mechabists: this beast of an espec gets a shadowstep for both, the engineer and the golem.

Spectre: the highest mobility class in game yet gets another six Potential shadowsteps.

Willbender: gets shadowsteps and increased mobility

Warrior and revenant especs don't get anything special here, but are already mobile by their choice of weapon or utility skills.

Ele and mesmer mobility stays the same, but mesmer is naturally evasive already. Not to mention both classes have access to Instant teleports.

 

So compared to all this, where stands harbinger's mobility now? I don't think we are that mobile in comparison and still one of the slower classes. Our additional mobilty is hidden behind shroud and considering that staying in shroud doesn't protect our health anymore but deminishes our healthpool, we are in a really poor place when on the defensive. In competitive modes we will still be forced into fleshworm and spectral walk. One of which has an insanely long cast time and mediocre cast range, and the other must be activated First, then lure the Opponent away to them be reactivated and teleported back to the starting Position. Both, likewise, cannot be used whilst unser pressure and have to be cast in advance if something goes wrong. For core necro, reaper and scourge this isn't as bad as for harbinger, which has near no access to protect its health Pool. Please give this  more mobility to this spec or at least access to our utility skills whilst in shroud. We don't have any payoff for the blight mechanic already...

Edited November 4, 2021 by Dschromm.2946

[Zenith.7301]

Just looking at Harbinger elixirs vs. Specter wells, and how elixirs are so massively outclassed.

 

First, the elixirs give out redundant boons. In your standard raid format, the HB and renegade will cap all boons trivially.  Harbinger may bring quickness to replace a subsquad firebrand or scrapper quickness source, but provides far less utility than both. Virtually no comparable stability or reflects, less CC, significantly less survival than quickness scrapper.

 

Meanwhile specter has wells. Perfectly viable alacrity source, aoe (not needing a trait to apply the baseline functionality of a well to allies, unlike the awful Harbinger elixirs), the wells have effects of their own besides boon application, and they are ranged targeted aoe blinks.... on top of barrier provision. Not to mention Specter wells actually have an animation, unlike the elixirs where you just do a chugging animation with no noticeable spell effects.

 

How is this even comparable? One class pays with a self handicap Blight mechanic (which does nothing except cost you significant survivability just to put out competitive damage with marginal baseline utility) to be a wannabe ele, while the other gains necromancer shroud and extra survivability on top of thief's baseline increased dodge supply, vigor, and mobility.

 

Harbinger elixirs should be targeted throws or pbAoE skills that have an offensive effect, such as damage/conditions, boon strip, CC, stunbreak, etc on top of their granted boons. Necromancer is an offensive class, why is it that thief gets to play out the offensive support role far betetr than necromancer does despite core necromancer having massively inferior group support utility options outside Scourge?

Edited November 11, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Sifolstour.3210]

I'm amazed of all the writing just on page 21. Devs must take into consideration those comments seriously cause thats the way to create a new espec.  For me is delusional specially how they 'designed'  harbinger utility skills, those elixirs dont encourage to play this new espec at all.

[Obtena.7952]

The best part is that people forgot that comparisons between classes aren't compelling reasons to change things. Really, of all the especs, I think harbringer is in the top 3 for EoD. Not a whole lot to be done with it, EVEN if you think Specter "does it better".

Edited November 18, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Bale.3851]

Like some say "better late than never". So here is my very late feedback (PVP perspective).

 

First of the good: I really like the concept of a mobile less tanky necro. The game play feels fine and the design is cohesive. Also the new pistol mainhand feels good even thou a 2nd pistol off hand would be really nice. Not only lore wise but also for the better gameplay cause we lack a good off hand. Personally i also like the new elite elixier. Whats espacially nice is the new sustain gameplay we get and heres where the trouble starts: The new blight mechanic.

 

1st)The new blight mechanic feels unfinished. Like u threw in "something" on last call. It has no baseline interaction with the specc. When u play boon support u simply debuff urself and thats it. NO GAINS BASELINE. Just losing health for nothing in return feels bad. And even when u play a dps specc the risk doesnt justify the rewad. If u are a oneshot with no stealth and no aegis (most of the time u play lich ult cause its simply better) or just 1 dodge u should have the potential to also oneshot some. But there is no big boom ability. So my suggestion would be rework this mechanic (like many suggested):

 

1) blight mechanic as you already did (less health -> more dmg but baseline)

2) change blight to a "heat" like mechanic without losing health (we already lost shroud health also reduce the passive heal amount)

3) make blight an mechanic like carapace where u reduce the dmg u get but also the dmg u do ( with further reduced passive heal)

 

now put 1) 2) and 3) into the skill tree and let the player pick how they want to play (more tanky with less dmg or less health for more dmg and so on). This would open up totally different types of builds but always with a designated weakness.

 

2nd) The Elixiers. All elixiers except for the elite and in group fight also this one are lacking. And not a little bit. They are super lacking. In PVE  u heal 2k hp with ur healing ability and lose more health through blight than u actually heal. The buffs of the elixiers are redundant and the effects are an insult "do X gain buff + Y". Again the blight mechanic togehter with the lacking effects result in a 100% skip of these abilities in all situations (expect the elite). Btw why would u put 25 s durations on blights. This sounds like a placeholder duration.

 

3rd) The traits. The traits are like the elixiers kinda boring. Nothing is really altering the way u play. If u want want to play power u can just pick the top traits or for condi the bottom ones. There is no altering in the way u play throughout the whole traitslines. Nothing really changes your playstyle. Also the GM traits. You develop a ranges glascannon which can kite and your GM´s are for power and condi are pulse X around on a 3s pulse?? really ?? How is there any synergy with your abilites or playstyle. It even more a counter to the way you should play. My suggestion is to rework this completely.

 

TL;DR: The specc feels...unfinished. The idea is nice and the gameplay is fine but there are major design holes in the specc itself. Yes u can make it work if u abuse the passive healing and kite alot. But the overall concept makes u play around the mechanic u should use. Also the GM traits are pretty sloppy. But if u put in alittle bit of work this specc could become really nice.

 

Last question: Why give specter more mobility, shround aka tankyness and dps while telling necro all the time u cant have it all 😫.