Harbinger Feedback Thread [Merged]

[Riot Inducer.8964]

As much as I tried to set my expectations low for changes between the betas and launch I still can't help being a bit salty they never even bothered to swap out the copy-paste elixir skill icons. Functionality can be changed about down the line but the likelihood of new skill icons after launch is next to nil. 

[LucianDK.8615]

On 3/1/2022 at 12:22 AM, Uete.3805 said:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSAFsElaYZosUGITlRil6kb8F-zRJYmRP/ZkrUoDVgJPIBxYAL6+pB-e

This is what I'm currently running. It's not optimal surely, but it's easy to get if you had some asc condi gear. Melts stuff while surviving quite well.

 

And what do you use it for? OW pve?

[Shroud.2307]

Alright, after more experimentation, here are my thoughts.

[ This is about WvW only. ]

Power Harbinger can be a decent duelist and very small scale team fighter. It very much falls in to the same category as core Power Necro wherein you have so much damage output that you can very quickly turn fights in your favor. The reason no one plays it seriously though is because it is objectively impractical. You're a literal glass cannon and have nothing to protect or resustain yourself with. This is true of both core and Harbinger, but especially so with Harbinger. 

Hybrid and Condi Harbinger are much better off and more viable, but still have some problems. This version is a very good 1 v 1 and 1 v X fighter, but again doesn't add much to team fights and scales poorly the more players are around. I would say Harbinger in general, regardless of build, isn't going to be good above 10 v 10's unless maybe someone comes up with a good Elixir support build.

The main problem with Harbinger is twofold.

* Shroud does not protect health.
* Utilities cannot be used in Shroud.

You cannot trade hits because you don't have a way to soak damage, but your kit, Shroud, and many of your utilities, want you to soak damage.
And Shroud, though it provides mobility, also provides significant damage through that mobility. This means when you're trying to kite to avoid damage, you're using the main skills you would want to be using to end the fight.

With all other Necro specs, you can be defensive while also being offensive. You can soak damage while applying counter pressure. With Harbinger, the skills you would use to counter pressure you instead need to use to kite (Devouring Cut, Voracious Arc, and to a lesser extent Vital Draw). 
This always ends up putting you in a position where you're on the backfoot, and you're left with two options.

* Stay in Shroud waiting for mobility to recharge so you can keep kiting, while continuing to gain Blight becoming more susceptible to damage.
* Or leave Shroud so you can use utilities like Spectral Walk, Flesh Wurm, Spectral Ring, something defensive to widen the gap.

Which ever option you choose, you lose the option to apply counter pressure. If you stay in Shroud, you need to use your hardest hitters defensively, and you become less and less able to afford taking damage. If you leave Shroud, you're now waiting on it to recharge so you can go offensive again, which means you're going to need to use most of your utilities to buy time. Either way, you're in a bad position.

Bottom line is this.

I think utilities should be usable in Shroud.

Although I am honestly not sure how that might effect this spec as a 1 v 1er (it could be too good), I do at the very least think it's necessary to allow it to play the way it is intended to be. As is, it's just awkward to use and struggles to do much in team fights. 

[SleepyBat.9034]

5 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Alright, after more experimentation, here are my thoughts.

[ This is about WvW only. ]

Power Harbinger can be a decent duelist and very small scale team fighter. It very much falls in to the same category as core Power Necro wherein you have so much damage output that you can very quickly turn fights in your favor. The reason no one plays it seriously though is because it is objectively impractical. You're a literal glass cannon and have nothing to protect or resustain yourself with. This is true of both core and Harbinger, but especially so with Harbinger. 

Hybrid and Condi Harbinger are much better off and more viable, but still have some problems. This version is a very good 1 v 1 and 1 v X fighter, but again doesn't add much to team fights and scales poorly the more players are around. I would say Harbinger in general, regardless of build, isn't going to be good above 10 v 10's unless maybe someone comes up with a good Elixir support build.

The main problem with Harbinger is twofold.

* Shroud does not protect health.
* Utilities cannot be used in Shroud.

You cannot trade hits because you don't have a way to soak damage, but your kit, Shroud, and many of your utilities, want you to soak damage.
And Shroud, though it provides mobility, also provides significant damage through that mobility. This means when you're trying to kite to avoid damage, you're using the main skills you would want to be using to end the fight.

With all other Necro specs, you can be defensive while also being offensive. You can soak damage while applying counter pressure. With Harbinger, the skills you would use to counter pressure you instead need to use to kite (Devouring Cut, Voracious Arc, and to a lesser extent Vital Draw). 
This always ends up putting you in a position where you're on the backfoot, and you're left with two options.

* Stay in Shroud waiting for mobility to recharge so you can keep kiting, while continuing to gain Blight becoming more susceptible to damage.
* Or leave Shroud so you can use utilities like Spectral Walk, Flesh Wurm, Spectral Ring, something defensive to widen the gap.

Which ever option you choose, you lose the option to apply counter pressure. If you stay in Shroud, you need to use your hardest hitters defensively, and you become less and less able to afford taking damage. If you leave Shroud, you're now waiting on it to recharge so you can go offensive again, which means you're going to need to use most of your utilities to buy time. Either way, you're in a bad position.

Bottom line is this.

I think utilities should be usable in Shroud.

Although I am honestly not sure how that might effect this spec as a 1 v 1er (it could be too good), I do at the very least think it's necessary to allow it to play the way it is intended to be. As is, it's just awkward to use and struggles to do much in team fights. 

What build were you using?

[SleepyBat.9034]

So I've been testing Celestial Harbinger builds for roaming and so far it is a BEAST. Here is my favorite build I tried http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSABoid3lhy8YqMLWLW0PvRdA-z1IY14/QaUU0rUtmFk7OEB5vF8n2A-w.

While I was testing it on a dps golem in the WvW bastion VIP lounge I saw you can easily keep close to 30 stacks of Death's Carapace (just from applying conditions), you get 10-15 stacks of might on average if running Superior Rune of Aristocracy (other good Runes could be Tormenting and Antitoxin), and Blight stacks are easy to manage with proper use of Elixirs and Shroud 3 and 4.

Stat wise this build has the highest overall stats I've ever seen on a single build. You have permanent Protection from Corrupter's Fervor, (Permanent Regeneration from Superior Rune of Tormenting if you run it), pulsing Quickness and Fury in Shroud, and of course you have the Elite Elixir which is super strong for bursting down targets.

This build is the ultimate farmer of power builds with over 2k toughness,  permanent Protection, and the Weakness spam from Weakening Shroud and Corrupting Might on your opponent. And this build doesn't feed to condition builds either, with double cleansing sigil, Deathly Swarm, Plague Sending, and Elixir of Bliss.

It even has good mobility/disengage with potential 2400 range movement from two 600 range movement skills in shroud and Flesh Wurm.

For sustain it has Alchemic Vigor and Regeneration from Elixir of Promise. (If running Superior Rune of Tormenting permanent Regeneration.

Edited March 2, 2022 by SleepyBat.9034
Update

[Asum.4960]

Feedback (concerning endgame PvE) for the live version is unfortunately mostly the same - there is some fun to be had on the spec, especially now that it's new, but longterm I just don't see it being competitive. 

 

As DPS, it's still just an objectively worse Scourge, even more so now with Epi having been obliterated. 

Scourge offers drastically more flexibility in it's add cleave now through Shades, offers group cleanses, group Barriers, self Barrier, passive damage reduction via Traits, and aside from dropping Plaguelands and Harrowing Wave at 600, it's pretty much entirely 900 range (aka unmatched Boss DPS uptime). 

 

DPS Harbinger in turn gets non of that and instead suffers from reduced Health due to Blight, and due to Approaching Doom and Elixirs (to be cast on enemy and self) needs to be in melee (180 range) for full effectiveness.

Both do roughly the same DPS (given the same DPS uptime). 

 

That's 6+ major negatives with 0 positives in comparison (Alchemic Vigor heal doesn't stack up against more health + group Barrier spam), while utilizing pretty much the exact same build and skills and therefor not offering a drastically different experience/flair - just limitations and drawbacks. 

I just wish Harbinger had at least one positive standing out.

 

For the Boon Support variant things look obviously better in terms of competing with Necro specs since neither Core, Reaper nor Scourge have any boon support to speak of, so that feels more unique - beyond that though, it just doesn't do enough. 

While the additional Fury on Deathly Haste and removal of Aegis spam on Firebrand brought Quickness Harbinger and Firebrand slightly closer together, there is still a Grand Canyon between them. 

Perma Quickness, Fury and middling Might just can't compete with Perma Quickness, Fury, Might, Reflects (both inbuilt and additional optional), Stability (both inbuilt and additional optional), inbuilt multiple mass Cleanses and condi to boon conversion (Cleansing Flame, Purging Flames, Eternal Oasis, Radiant Recovery), Protection, Resolution, emergency group Heal Modifiers, Pulls and more. 

 

They don't need to be evenly matched, and hopefully the Meta will relax somewhat with a greater variety of providers in people's minds, but frankly this difference is so monumental still that you are actively screwing over your groups by playing Quickness Harbinger over Firebrand. 

 

I still think the Elixirs need to be reworked to some extend to include at least some Stability (on a not 90 second CD, I'd really like to see this cheesy and largely redundantly overlapping all Boon Elite scrapped for something more broadly useful) - the new Strikes made it painfully obvious how much you'll boost your group success rate with a FB with Stand your Ground over a Harbinger. 

I also still think Harbinger deserves at least one Reflect Wall somewhere in there. 

 

As is on the PvE side, Harbinger is a neat little OW Auto Attacker, but that's kind of it. It's more than playable, but you are drastically hurting your groups success rate in any challenging group content by playing it over it's alternatives - way too much so.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Nimon.7840]

I don't think is as bad as you make it sound.

Especially the epi nerf is actually a buff to harbinger over scourge. Because scourge has permanent access to epi, while harbinger doesn't.

That makes taking epi on harbinger a little bit worse. But on scourge a lot worse.

 

And harbinger, even though being a condi spec is much easier to burst on in PvE.

I was easily on par with the top DPS players of my static yesterday at deimos.

If you position yourself correctly shroud 2 will hit multiple targets with all it's hits, which is a really big DPS increase.

[jpsssss.7530]

I still think it doesn't do enough damage to justify losing shroud protection, for WvW and PvP. Like i'll never play it over core because it doesn't have they staying power or required tools that other damage specs have to deal with a power mes who can nuke you from 35k health...

[Asum.4960]

2 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

I don't think is as bad as you make it sound.

Especially the epi nerf is actually a buff to harbinger over scourge. Because scourge has permanent access to epi, while harbinger doesn't.

That makes taking epi on harbinger a little bit worse. But on scourge a lot worse.

 

And harbinger, even though being a condi spec is much easier to burst on in PvE.

I was easily on par with the top DPS players of my static yesterday at deimos.

If you position yourself correctly shroud 2 will hit multiple targets with all it's hits, which is a really big DPS increase.

While it was more convenient timing wise for those critical Epi moments on Scourge, you don't need permanent Epi Access - it's definitely worse for Harbinger to lose that type of  wide/non-melee cleave than for Scourge, which can substitute for it somewhat with Shades. 

The piercing on Harbinger is fairly lacklustre (for instanced content on stack especially) - you won't clear adds or additional mechanics at MO, SH, Gorse, Arkk, Snownlind and what have you with it - Scourge can still decently contribute without having to move off stack/stopping boss DPS.

 

As for being top DPS in the hands of a good player, sure, it's absolutely possible. Harbinger's DPS is fine. It just doesn't do anything else whatsoever to increase the groups actual winrate, unlike the Specs it competes against, even on Necro itself - which can be that top DPS in capable hands all the same. 

 

All in all that means it's a decent pick for super high end groups which don't make many mistakes in which case winrate increases are largely redundant, while being a strictly inferior pick for 99.9% of the community over it's alternatives. 

There is no scenario in which your group won't be better off with you playing Scourge over Harbinger, unless your are in the 0.1% of groups, in which case it will be even at best. 

You are simply leaving group cleanses, barriers, cleave and personal survivability behind for no gain. 

 

Doesn't mean it's unplayable or even bad - or that you can't still clear everything just fine on it (esp. if other's pick up the slack), just means it's strictly worse.

[Allium Cepa.6927]

From a PvE perspective:

Alchemic Vigor had a good change helping sustain and actually making blight do something beneficial on it's own. The problem here is that it needs healing power to scale. It makes sense, as it heals you but heal power does nothing else for harbinger other than a bit on Elixir of Promise regen. So its hard to justify taking that attribute space.  Based on my testing it looks like it has a 13 + 0.013HP heal per stack. So at 1000 heal power, that's 650 heal a second at 25 blight. Quite reasonable, just not worth the investment. (Its 325/sec with 0 heal power, max blight). Everything else in this spec is based on vitality. it would be nice to see it scale with that  or be based on %health, rather than flat.

Pistol. Not that exciting but I don't dislike using it. The problem is damage. Power build is better with axe, condi is better with scepter, especially with Lingering Curse (and the parasitic contagion nerf bringing less reason to not take lingering curse).  Pistol does work well for death magic carapace stacks though. decent life force gen.

The grandmaster traits still are boring.  The only one worth taking most of the time is Deathly Haste for perma quickness(and fury). That alone makes up for the lost damage the other two would have given. but it also gives it to the party. Not saying this is a bad thing, just the other two need to do more, and actually change the playstyle. Not just pulse damage + stats. This has been a complaint from beta1.

Vile Vials. No benefit from blight. Make it add a small splash heal based on blight or reduced recharge higher, but based on blight.

Fear. If harbinger isn't getting fear, at least make the fear traits apply to daze/stun in harbi. 

I'm still figuring out a build and rotations, but so far am struggling to do more damage than scourge. A glass cannon needs damage to work. Like, a lot of damage. 12.5% from max blight just isn't enough, especially when you need to take elixirs to keep it up or be in shroud that removes utility skills (and lose max hp/shroud protection). When I jump into melee with little defenses, the damage needs to be high enough to kill a target before it kills you. Scourge should not be able to out damage it from range with better survivability. 

The more feedback I see the less I feel that Anet actually reads any of it. Or at least those that make the decisions care. For example, the blight tooltip still says -2% health per stack (It's actually about 1.5%). Seriously. This would take 30 seconds to fix. They had ~3 months to do this.

I don't expect any changes for a while. We'll see where harbinger is in a month or so once people figure it out and if it ever gets taken over scourge/reaper/firebrand. Just hope they don't abandon it as a lost cause if it doesn't see play. Harbinger still has potential.

[Velox.5340]

Minor but noteworthy thing that got overlooked: The first two traits that are unlocked boost elixirs, with the first one only benefiting elixirs. However, you do not unlock your first elixir skill until you're almost half way into the spec.

https://i.imgur.com/aZT7aC5.png

Edited March 3, 2022 by Velox.5340

[Kronos.2560]

At the end of the day I only have 2 things I really want fixed with harbinger. 

 

1. Fear added to shroud. Change skill 4 daze to fear or something. I just hate to see ALL fear traits be useless in Har.

 

2. Shroud 3 and 4 removing stacks of blight I makes no sense to me. More dps on that skill but less dps modifier if use.. it's a lose lose. Makes no sense. Keep the threshold for x effect if want but removing blight is nonsensical.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Kronos.2560

[Asum.4960]

5 hours ago, Kronos.2560 said:

2. Shroud 3 and 4 removing stacks of blight I makes no sense to me. More dps on that skill but less dps modifier if use.. it's a lose lose. Makes no sense. Keep the threshold for x effect if want but removing blight is nonsensical.

Yea, the conflicting design that was part of my main critique of Beta 4 just got worse. The Alchemic Vigor healing addition was desperately needed for the spec, but now those Blight consumptions on those skills makes even less sense. 

 

More Blight = More damage from damage modifiers, but then more damage from skills consuming Blight which then means lower damage from modifiers.

More Blight = less survivability through reduced health.. but then also more survivability through sustain from healing per Blight stack? 

(Then, as far as I'm aware, removed Blight stacks still effectively strip you of LF, as max health increases again, along with your total LF pool scaling off of it, but your current LF doesn't change - which is drained percentage based off the total.)

 

Things get even worse when you want to use the Shroud mobility defensively to reposition, rather than Utilizing it's Blight consumption for extra damage - you basically pay a defensive CD, an offensive Cool Down, a Damage modifier, Life Force/Shroud uptime and some of your sustain away, just to reposition yourself. As everything else on Harbinger, there are just way too many downsides for every little bit good.

What does the spec actually want to do and be?

It's fine and could even be really interesting to have a choice in the spec between stacking Blight and not, between innate tankyness and sustain, between burst and DPS.. but then those need to actually be choices - yet the entire Trait line for Harbinger was spent on passive stat increases and passive auras, rather than making that a reality - so it feels like playing 2-3 different, with each other conflicting, ideas for the spec at once.

 

Why have the power line in the first place? It would have been so much more interesting to dedicate one line to giving in to the corruption, building up and maintaining Blight for various thresholds of effects/empowerments (more about DPS, Kiting, squishy but sustain heavy), and another line about managing and controlling it, unleashing it through (added by choice) Blight sinks (more of a jump in and burst/brawl playstyle).

It just doesn't have an identity or theme right now, and conflicts heavily mechanically.

 

The Elixirs are still a complete design mess with both their added tossed as well as Blight threshhold mechanics. The correct way to use them is to throw them on yourself + the enemy in melee, gaining the Blight stacks to trigger their own thresholds instantly for extra effects (meaning Blight on you for extra damage modifiers/to use for the consume skills and sustain, boons on yourself, negative conditions on the enemy, gaining sustain from Alchemic Vigor). If you throw them instead, you'll likely not have the Blight to trigger their effects. Ranged boon support, throwing Elixirs at allies from a distance, isn't a mechanical niche in GW2, especially since you need to stack in melee with your allies for Deathly Haste anyway. So both them being ranged and having those thresholds in the first place is invalidated by their own design. 

Imo they should have just stayed self targeted to drink, no Blight thresholds, and increased and more interesting effects (again, actual Utility - Stability, Reflects walls etc., something mechanically interesting and useful to contribute. 

 

I know some people have praised the thrown addition as well as the thresholds because it makes them seem more flexible and interesting on paper, but with their current design there just isn't any value in that, and they don't make sense.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Uete.3805]

On 3/2/2022 at 5:28 AM, LucianDK.8615 said:

 

And what do you use it for? OW pve?

Yup! it was in response to someone asking for the build I was using in OW.

9 hours ago, Kronos.2560 said:

2. Shroud 3 and 4 removing stacks of blight I makes no sense to me. More dps on that skill but less dps modifier if use.. it's a lose lose. Makes no sense. Keep the threshold for x effect if want but removing blight is nonsensical.

 

 

I totally agree with you. It makes harbi shroud really unintuitive.

As other people have pointed out, the greatmaster major traits need a second look at. Melee quickness makes sense, but melee dmg or condis don't with this spec, given it's mostly range-based.

[KrHome.1920]

13 hours ago, Uete.3805 said:

I totally agree with you. It makes harbi shroud really unintuitive.

It's not unintuitive.

You consume your blight in shroud to deal double damage with shroud 3 and 4. So it's up to you whether you want that burst or sustained damage via blight stacks. The other alternative is to use shroud 3 and 4 defensively to disengage and remove blight to regain your HP pool.

Quote

As other people have pointed out, the greatmaster major traits need a second look at. Melee quickness makes sense, but melee dmg or condis don't with this spec, given it's mostly range-based.

Same here, you get more damage for a higher risk of dying (melee). If you want range, then pick deathly haste which is great for condi and direct damage builds.

The spec is actually quite flexible and complex.

The only thing they messed up is that after beta 1, where harbinger needed just a few tweaks, they reworked it to not so mobile anymore but therefor getting a huge burst potential - which people hate now in the competitive modes as they don't dodge/stunbreak shroud 5 and then get oneshot.

After all these years ANet still did not learn, that focussing on onedimensionality is bad. Specs will look overpowered in some scenarios and underpowered in others and you have to constantly rebalance the classes depending what is actual meta.

Edited March 4, 2022 by KrHome.1920

[Bale.3851]

10 minutes ago, KrHome.1920 said:

It's not unintuitive.

You consume your blight in shroud to deal double damage with shroud 3 and 4. So it's up to you whether you want that burst or sustained damage via blight stacks. The other alternative is to use shroud 3 and 4 defensively to disengage and remove blight to regain your HP pool.

 

I agree. Its only annoying when you kite in pvp and normally you want the sustain to heal you but you also have to you movement abilitys. But what can you do...

[Subli.8217]

Quickness Harbinger is fun, but clunky to play and it lacks in support. I feel like I should be able to cover protection or stability. 

- Potion trait should make them an ammo skill.
- Potions should leave areas that tick boons/condis. Throwing a quickness potion during the start of a raid/strike only for the quickness to get removed is the worst pain!
- Elite skill is underwhelming, it should scale with boon duration or apply much more condition stacks. It doesn't compete with plaguelands.

[Mourningstar.7309]

Speaking from a PVE perspective here.

 

Of all the new specs, harbinger is definitely the most fun I've had.  While there are bunch of complaints about trait selection being dull, I sort of appreciate how easy it is to going full dps or dps/quickness with one or two trait changes, depending on how much you're willing to commit.  I've tried power, condi, and hybrid and have generally landed on condi.  

 

I've noticed that elixirs are thrown underwater, which makes them extremely difficult to use.  I don't think that's intentional.  

 

If I had to make one request, it would be a trait to make it so those skills with blight thresholds didn't consume your blight so you could fully commit to your bursty skills without dumping your damage modifiers.

 

[XECOR.2814]

Alchemical vigor is just like heat therapy from holo, except holo has multiple ways to blast and leap water fields to get even more healing + stealth and invuln and skills while using holo forge. The vit was nerfed as trade for this trait. Originally the extra vit was part of kit that was tradeoff for removing shroud. Untamed has same hp bonus for no tradeoff and we are getting tradeoffs of tradeoffs. Feels good. Alchemical vigor sustain is too low. They would have to bump it 2x at the very least. Not asking for anything. This is just my prediction, unless they buff sustain anywhere else. Wont keep hopes up.

[Raught.3294]

As I've played and learned Harbinger this week in PvE and PvP. it is absolutely amazing. It is just as fun as scourge and I applaud at how they turned Harbinger around since Beta 1. Loving the spec, and I honestly believe it will only get better with time and fine tuning! 

[The Boz.2038]

Condi and quick work nicely. Spec still hella melee, for having a ranged main weapon and shroud ability set.

Power is a meme, tho. Can explode people every now and then in the PvP formats, but PvE? Entirely a joke.

[LucianDK.8615]

So what stat sets does the harbingers of today run?  Viper still reigning supreme for full out cdps?  Does ritualist stats have a place like for quickharbingers?

[Nimon.7840]

Sadly this is still in the game:

Even though shroud doesn't protect your health anymore and you can be healed while in shroud, your dedicated group healer can't see a harbingers health while the harbinger is in shroud.

- makes absolutely no sense to me

Edited March 9, 2022 by Nimon.7840

[The Boz.2038]

On 3/9/2022 at 1:25 AM, LucianDK.8615 said:

So what stat sets does the harbingers of today run?  Viper still reigning supreme for full out cdps?  Does ritualist stats have a place like for quickharbingers?

cDPS harb is literally the same set as cDPS scourge, but takes a pistol and a knife instead of a scepter and a torch (still probably carries a scepter in the back pocket, together with a warhorn). So, Viper, Torment/Nightmare runes, Torment/Bursting sigils.

Quickness harbinger is ritualist, yes, and provides comfy quickness while doing a nice bit of DPS. Just wear ritu gear, same sigils, same runes, mostly the same skills, too, except for Elixir of Anguish. Swap over two traits (Deathly Haste, Twisted Medicine) and done.

[Black Storm.6974]

I’m glad Harbinger is effective as condition DPS because I literally could not play Scourge as one, it was just a frustrating experience because of the multiple offensive skills with instant cast and very low cooldown, and because of the tedious to manage internal cooldowns. Finally I can play a functional condition DPS.

 

I’m also glad there is the option to play him as a power DPS and I find it much more fun than the condition variant, though I’m aware of how it is underperforming DPS wise. There is an absolute massive DPS difference between the condition version and the power version. I hope the issue can be addressed by increasing the base coefficients of the skills and by buffing the damage of the main hand dagger.  

 

I can finally share Quickness and Fury and I like how that feature has been implemented.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Black Storm.6974