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Harbinger Feedback Thread [Merged]


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On 8/17/2021 at 9:07 PM, Catilleon.9258 said:

Firstly the gun. It functions like a lesser Engineer's pistol. I didn't even know that was possible. Fine it works you're a Necro with a gun that's fun but it could so be much more.

What?? It's better than Engineer pistol in practically every way.

  • Vicious Shot 238(0.65), torment, bounces, vs Fragmentation Shot 147(0.4), bleed, melee-radius aoe(but not the bleed..), same cast time
  • Weeping Shots 882(2.4), 6torment, vuln, pierces, vs Poison Dart Volley 735(2.0), 5poison, longer cast time, longer cooldown
  • Vile Blast 367(1.0), stun, 5poison, weakness, melee-radius aoe, longer cast time vs Static Shot 147(0.4), blind, 3confusion, bounces, instant

It has much more damage, more AoE, better CC, and lower cooldowns. The conditions are equal if not better on Harbinger too.

Edit: Oh, that was a million years ago, so it probably was worse and they made it better. Anyway, my complaint stands. Harbinger pistol is actually a good weapon, and Engi pistol should be brought up to that level. Must be nice having an elite spec get fixed in a few months where something like Engineer pistol can be terrible for a decade.

Edited by coro.3176
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While shroud and pistol skills are great, elixirs just feel incredibly boring and unimpactful

I can echo that. The elixirs needs to go back to the drawing board. Plus they are inferior to engineer elixirs which can be thrown.

This feedback is specifically for WvW. I have 1000s of hours in WvW, command daily and play every class, and often main necro.   Harbinger provides no unique niche in this content. It is a s

13 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

It has much more damage, more AoE, better CC, and lower cooldowns. The conditions are equal if not better on Harbinger too.

Edit: Oh, that was a million years ago, so it probably was worse and they made it better. Anyway, my complaint stands. Harbinger pistol is actually a good weapon, and Engi pistol should be brought up to that level. Must be nice having an elite spec get fixed in a few months where something like Engineer pistol can be terrible for a decade.

 

Valid complaint but i guess false forum. I mean yeah new elites get new weapons with power creep. Thats one of their selling points. And like many old weapons pistol on ingi is outdated. Look at dagger on core necro or sword on ranger. Its just the wrong forum mate. This is the harbinger feedback forum. So uhm you feedback is harbinger is better than core ingi?

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I really like this spec and it's amazing condi burst. It's survivable and just fun to play with the right gear and setup. I use 
Celestial for everything and spec with signets for the simplicity and it's pretty amazing. 

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I really though that Harbinger is kinda weird in the beginning. Always loved Reaper for the BFS. Scourge always felt kinda clunky - Harbinger also kinda does with these ground-targeting elexirs since it does slow down gameplay. Other than that though, Harbinger is mad fun and in every regard the superior cDPS specialization gameplay-wise.

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Could you please change the blight visual effect? Right now it goes from "stinky feet" to "pooped my pants" to "haven't taken a shower since claw island", and it looks really, really bad.

I think that, since you're supposedly blighting yourself by drinking your concoctions, the visual effect should start from the chest area and spread to the rest of your body as you stack more blight.

Please consider this, it would be a really nice change.

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While Harbinger works surface level, I keep being perpetually frustrated by it's design. 

Unfortunately I highly doubt we'll see a major rework (to the utter mess that Blight and especially Elixir's are) within the next 2 years, or ever, but I'd like to note down two more minor change suggestions that I can realistically imagine in a balance patch:

 

Voracious Arc: I find myself constantly getting interrupted mid animation as the skills animation/cast time is longer than it's actual evade. I really think this skill needs a 3/4 second evade (or alternatively an animation/cast time speed up to 0.5 seconds, matching the current evade). Imo it also should be restored to 900 range. 

Side note, Transfusion still isn't linked to Harbinger Shroud 4.

E:/ Additionally I still think the Daze should be replaced with Fear, for Core Trait interactions and Shroud skills parity.

 

The Blight Consumption (on Devouring Cut and Voracious Arc): I get the intent with the addition of this functionality to make rotations slightly more interesting/add some illusion of interesting Blight management or choice, but this isn't the way to do it.

Especially with the addition of Healing per second per Blight stack to Alchemic Vigor (and the existing damage modifiers per Blight on the Corruption Adept Traits), it just feels terrible to both lose damage modifiers as well as sustain to utilize these tools (plus LF/Shroud uptime, due to changing max health/lf values, and LF draining on a 5% basis per second) - especially when using them as originally intended as movement/repositioning and defensive (evade, daze) tools, missing out on the Blight Threshold damage/torment as well.

Pressing a skill shouldn't punish you in three ways and reward you once.

 

Imo the Blight Threshold effect should be removed entirely from Voracious Arc (in addition to the changes mentioned above, refocusing the skill on movement/defence), while making the 5 Torment application baseline to Devouring Cut, without Threshold or at the very least Blight consumption. The loss of Torment from Voracious Arc and higher Modifier uptime from more Blight upkeep should largely cancel each other out, while clearing up/focusing the design of the skills and not making players feel punished for using them.

Blight just doesn't feel like it needs removing anymore, now doubling as both damage modifier and baseline sustain increase through Alchemic Vigor - it's overly difficult to keep up, especially without constantly chugging Elixir's onto oneself for the sole purpose of generating Blight.  

Edited by Asum.4960
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10 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

While Harbinger works surface level, I keep being perpetually frustrated by it's design. 

Unfortunately I highly doubt we'll see a major rework (to the utter mess that Blight and especially Elixir's are) within the next 2 years, or ever, but I'd like to note down two more minor change suggestions that I can realistically imagine in a balance patch:

 

Voracious Arc: I find myself constantly getting interrupted mid animation as the skills animation/cast time is longer than it's actual evade. I really think this skill needs a 3/4 second evade (or alternatively an animation/cast time speed up to 0.5 seconds, matching the current evade). Imo it also should be restored to 900 range. 

Side note, Transfusion still isn't linked to Harbinger Shroud 4.

 

The Blight Consumption (on Devouring Cut and Voracious Arc): I get the intent with the addition of this functionality to make rotations slightly more interesting/add some illusion of interesting Blight management or choice, but this isn't the way to do it.

Especially with the addition of Healing per second per Blight stack to Alchemic Vigor (and the existing damage modifiers per Blight on the Corruption Adept Traits), it just feels terrible to both lose damage modifiers as well as sustain to utilize these tools (plus LF/Shroud uptime, due to changing max health/lf values, and LF draining on a 5% basis per second) - especially when using them as originally intended as movement/repositioning and defensive (evade, daze) tools, missing out on the Blight Threshold damage/torment as well.

Pressing a skill shouldn't punish you in three ways and reward you once.

 

Imo the Blight Threshold effect should be removed entirely from Voracious Arc (in addition to the changes mentioned above, refocusing the skill on movement/defence), while making the 5 Torment application baseline to Devouring Cut, without Threshold or at the very least Blight consumption. The loss of Torment from Voracious Arc and higher Modifier uptime from more Blight upkeep should largely cancel each other out, while clearing up/focusing the design of the skills and not making players feel punished for using them.

Blight just doesn't feel like it needs removing anymore, now doubling as both damage modifier and baseline sustain increase through Alchemic Vigor - it's overly difficult to keep up, especially without constantly chugging Elixir's onto oneself for the sole purpose of generating Blight.  

TIL: Voracious Arc *isn't* an offensive skill.  Here I've been this whole time using it to pounce on unsuspecting groups of mobs to whomp them into the ground. oops.

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1 hour ago, Kitty La Boom Boom.4065 said:

TIL: Voracious Arc *isn't* an offensive skill.  Here I've been this whole time using it to pounce on unsuspecting groups of mobs to whomp them into the ground. oops.

The original design (Beta 1) had Voracious Arc as 900 range evade leap. The main offensive part (Blight Threshold & consumption, double damage and Torment) was added on later in Beta 4 and carried through release. Imo the former made more sense for the kit, while the latter also promotes some unhealthy one-shot gameplay. 

 

The greater point though is that imo a movement skill that does oneshot levels of damage, evades, dazes, invalidates Adept and Minor Traits (damage modifiers and sustain through stacking Blight), reduces your Shroud uptime and increases your max health (via Blight removal) is just completely unwieldy and bloated design - not quite as bad as the Elixirs, but still.

 

Reframing Voracious Arc back to a defensive mobility skill while refining it (restored 900 range + evade covering the full animation), while improving Devouring Cut as more clear engage/charge in damage skill would imo make Harbinger Shroud a much more well rounded kit with clearer design intent. 

(Charge in with Shroud 3, CC with Shroud 5, blast with Shroud 2, disengage with Shroud 4, kite/pressure with Shroud 1)

 

Right now Harbinger suffers from major design bloat, where instead of interesting and fun effects, refining the very flawed Beta 1 concept of Harbinger, Anet just added on a ton of minor and often contradicting effects to everything - primary example, Elixirs (and to some extend Blight), which dump Blight when thrown, grant Blight back when thrown at self (Blight itself representing a max health loss, a damage modifier gain, a sustain gain, and fuel for Blight consuming damage increases which invalidate the former 3), grant boons to self on use regardless where thrown, grant boons when thrown at allies if traited, do damage and inflict conditions when thrown at enemies.. it's just way too much nonsense.

Rather than doing one clear design intend right and in a fun and interesting way they do 8 things poorly and contradictory.  

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On 3/17/2022 at 4:43 AM, Asum.4960 said:

 

Reframing Voracious Arc back to a defensive mobility skill while refining it (restored 900 range + evade covering the full animation), while improving Devouring Cut as more clear engage/charge in damage skill would imo make Harbinger Shroud a much more well rounded kit with clearer design intent. 

(Charge in with Shroud 3, CC with Shroud 5, blast with Shroud 2, disengage with Shroud 4, kite/pressure with Shroud 1)

 

 

I don't understand the concept behind Voracious arc evade not covering whole cast time? Like was it too much evade LOL
Just to give an example, ranger with multiple times more sustain has 2 sec evade with shadow assault(750 range btw) which chases you to eternity while having ranged nuke and access to evades, 1200range leaps and stealth.

It not covering the whole duration of feels so bad to play and both the shroud3 and 4 not being 900 range like in earlier beta feels extremely bad. The shroud 3 consistently rubber-bands and shroud 4 gets cc'ed most of the times when landing.
I'm worried people are not looking past the bloated numbers atm and at the obv flaws.

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harbinger is simply said just weak. it was way more fun and better to play in beta.

 

the 600 range for shroud 3 + 4 are useless. just not enough. combined with only 900 range, nearly everything with real mobility can run from this still. plus shroud 3 is superclunky for movement and slow cast (like ALL skills on harbinger really... without quickness trait, it's a snail during attacks)

 

then the stab for 3s on main traitline? what a prank

 

blight punishes your sustain really hard for not more dmg than any other good beater - just none of those has all the harbinger downsides.

 

tested it during largescale wvw. it lacks useful dmg, cannot stay long in hot combat, has barely heal options, zero barrier, loses 70% corrupts done compared to scourge.

 

in spvp you gotta be very quick and your team very woke, then it can do work. overall, it just dies in seconds if hardfocused by any two dps classes with bad mobility to run.

 

tried to duel a condi bunker weaver in wvw, zero possibility to even do any useful dmg. u land a few hits, cannot even break it barrier hard enough. slow and stellar cc, cannot even get him that way. shroud cd 10 seconds, you also cannot quick go in shroud and waste your life force often into block/evades/reflects.

 

like most new classes, harbinger also is worse than all other existing specs of its type. reaper beats it in melee, with stabs and stuns, core heavily in bulk, scrouge aoe dmg and corrupts

 

like it only really counters other slow classes or slow reaction players. bit sad.

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I'm still struggling to see a reason why utility slots are locked in shroud other than lazy copy paste coding.

It's an understandable tradeoff for the damage reduction and health absorption of death and reaper shrouds but neither exist for harb.

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I've been playing since launch and picked up the Necro after HoT's release because Reaper looked incredibly fun. I loved the Scourge in PoF too and the build templates allowed for a nice combination of Reaper and Scourge set-ups.

 

I think what disappoints me MOST about the Harbinger is that they took away what makes the main necro mechanic unique and viable: in instances where going in to shroud takes away our normal skills, our lifeforce is used as health.

 

With Harbinger we lose access to all those skills, but don't really get much in return to protect us.

 

I think if Harbinger is meant to break the mold in that way, it should take the extra step and allow us to still have access to our healing, utility, and elite skills while in the Harbinger shroud. 

 

As it stands now, the Harbinger shroud just builds blight slower than it uses it up, if you utilize all of the skills available in the shroud.

 

With access to healing, utility, and elite skills, we could make much better use of elixers and have a much more dynamic way to manage and utilize blight.

 

Other than that, I think that the Harbinger only getting elixer blight within the splash radius forces us to just throw elixers at our feet and kind of discourages flexibility with the elixer skills.

 

If the Harbinger got the blight regardless of where the target is, it would encourage flexible and cooperative gameplay.

 

 

Edited by Itchitaka.7381
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As it is, harbinger feels very boring. It has few options compared to the other nec specs, no synergies to spot at all with preexisting traits unlike reaper with chill/blind stuff or scourge with burn, vit, vamp and corrupt stuff, and it bring no mechanically cool skills to the table. The elixir skills are incredibly bland and the shroud skills only really introduce 2-5 as skills that work somewhat differently compared to what we already had access to. For build variety there's only really glass condi or quickness pulse, both with mindnumbing rotations. Power variants are miserably weak after a burst, hybrid can't exist because the traits are split so hard. 

I already sank a little when the skills and traits where revealed, but held out hope. Usually i can make some builds that end up fun and strong. But when looking further into it and really wracking my mind for some unique runes or interesting builds or anything at all to do with it on release, i found nothing but disappointment. Harbinger is either strong but basic or utterly disconnected from anything else you want it to be. I did not have fun with this spec, it got lame extremely fast.

Harbinger needs something to set it apart when it comes to actually new skills and needs to have interesting traits or skills that work well with core stuff. 

Edited by Kumouta.4985
few more words for clarity and about experience
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After taking harb through some EOD strikes, it's amazing how hard it falls apart whenever forced out of melee range. It's especially painful when you're trying to provide quickness - the whole blight management just goes completely down the drain if you're forced to throw elixirs at any real distance.

There's also absolutely 0 flexibility in utility choices, unlike reaper or scourge. You just lose too much by swapping even a single elixir.

While I appreciate the blight being an actual mechanic now, instead of arbitrary numbers going up and down, I also feel that it chokes the harbinger so badly, killing any and all variety within the spec. You either play it in perfect condition, with a cookie-cutter build - or you're better off playing scourge the moment any kind of flexibility is required. I guess it creates some differentiation from scourge that way? But I don't like that approach. At all.

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I'm not as dedicated on Necromancer as most of the gentlemen of this thread, but after enough testing in Harbinger, I have some things to say.

The good: the idea is very cool, the gameplay is just average Necromancer gameplay (strong and easy), the base HP pool + Alchemic Vigor compensates the lack of the second HP bar in competitive modes, which had me hesitant when I first saw it. The pistol skills are nice specially #3, I wish you'd put something like that on the Vindicator. Elixirs are amazing.

The bad: not a fan of the Blight mechanic removing your own HP, specially when you don't have the shroud HP bar, IMO it should be one of the two, not both. Gameplay is as braindead as Reaper, in PvE most of the time I'm just spamming 1. You could've done better there like you did with Scourge. You could've add more mechanics here, like adding a F2 skill that would remove your Blight, or empower you, or whatever that would have made playing Harbinger more fun, like you did with Mechanist.

Forgot to add: you should be ashamed for these elixir icons coming in after the betas. Such a lazy design, you really nailed it with Engineer.

Edited by Telgum.6071
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Even SC recognizes the poor performance of Harbingers. From its build page:

 

Condition Harbinger is a strong Condition Damage DPS class with a relatively simple rotation. Despite the high benchmark of Condition Harbinger it underperforms in high pressure fights due to the Blight mechanic reducing your health, in these scenarios you would want to play Condition Scourge due to its tankier nature.

Condition Harbinger lacks the ability to swap any of the utility skills it has since they are all important for the build to function.

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On 3/27/2022 at 5:33 AM, LucianDK.8615 said:

it underperforms in high pressure fights due to the Blight mechanic reducing your health

So not only do you not get the benefit of life force being a 2nd health bar.. you also lose 37.5% health with 25 stacks of blight.  If you ask me this too much.  Just removing the life force as a 2nd health bar was enough as you don't get as many dodges as thief, nor any invulns like ele. The sustain is way too low.

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Sry just couldn't buy into the concept. 
Like what is necro doing with guns? Isn't that an engineer thing?
Surely even a warhorn make more sense. 
Next why is necro downing so many tonics? Isn't that an engineer thing?
Is the necro trying to do some kungfu? Isn't that a willbender thing?
There is not enough necro elements in this spec. Also the idea is bad to begin with. 
The positioning is awkard and the toon just ain't spooky 

Edited by medivh.4725
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Are there any real advantages to taking harb over reaper in open world?  Boss fights are very rippy in melee.  You lose health from hits in harb (unlike reaper), you're in melee (just like reaper), and your health degens (unlike reaper).  I think it might have been a more viable option if harbinger skills had 1200 range, and if allies (or at least minions) could be buffed without having to be close to them, but as is it's not really competitive with the other two specs (unless I'm missing something).  The game doesn't need more melee specs, honestly.

Edited by gduber.9756
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5 hours ago, gduber.9756 said:

Are there any real advantages to taking harb over reaper in open world?  Boss fights are very rippy in melee.  You lose health from hits in harb (unlike reaper), you're in melee (just like reaper), and your health degens (unlike reaper).  I think it might have been a more viable option if harbinger skills had 1200 range, and if allies (or at least minions) could be buffed without having to be close to them, but as is it's not really competitive with the other two specs (unless I'm missing something).  The game doesn't need more melee specs, honestly.

Oh wow, watch out, you're giving them ideas.

 

As good as they are, this "balance" team will probably nerf reapers based on this to bring it more inline with harbingers.

Edited by Devas.8104
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I liked all skills of the Harbinger Shroud. Especially Vital Draw for its cool animation, effect and pose. Very nice.

But too many elixirs. How about it blow a warhorn to do a dark summoning. Something comes out of shadow and fights alongside. A dark figure or sorts. It will be cool and fits theme of a necromancer 

Edited by medivh.4725
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  • 2 weeks later...

Coming from an engineer main and not having relied on shroud the same way non-harbinger necros do (for obvious reason,) I treated the harbinger shroud like a holismith’s photon forge - which is just a timed elite kit that takes slightly from health in one manner or another. 
The rest: I play as a drunken pistol condi engi and it is almost unfairly potent. Add weapon swap to engi mentality and it’s so crazy-go-nutz. (Above poster clearly laid out the advantage to harbinger pistol to engi.)
(And the wurm just replaces rocket boots’ functionality.)

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On 8/17/2021 at 4:16 PM, Fire Attunement.9835 said:

Let us know what you think about the harbinger! What do you really like? What needs to be improved or adjusted?

 

Found a bug? Let us know in the bug thread.

Please update Transfusion Grandmaster trait with an exception that make it valuable for the Harbinger. It's another overlooked Grandmaster trait.

 

Transfusion: (Grandmaster of Blood Magic)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Transfusion

 

This trait has exceptions for core necromancer and it's specializations to make it valuable for all them... right?  Less for the Harbinger, OF COURSE,  another overlooked and useless grandmaster for the Harbinger, like Dread and Unholy Sanctuary.

As the Harbinger does not have life force as a second health bar, this trait should heal the Harbinger as it does with the Scourge, or add other exception for the Harbinger to make it valuable as a Grandmaster trait.

 

Thanks for reading.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm surprised to see how everybody was complaining about elixir being bland with massive upvotes in page 1 and this hasn't been addressed.

It gives a feeling that feedback isn't being listened to.

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