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While shroud and pistol skills are great, elixirs just feel incredibly boring and unimpactful

I can echo that. The elixirs needs to go back to the drawing board. Plus they are inferior to engineer elixirs which can be thrown.

This feedback is specifically for WvW. I have 1000s of hours in WvW, command daily and play every class, and often main necro.   Harbinger provides no unique niche in this content. It is a s

3 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Yes, which is also a long range dash. You also have another dash on a 5 second cooldown.

 

You are not going to be perma 11k hp because again, you don't camp shroud. You just take a tanky amulet with a base hp of 30k+ and only go in shroud for a couple skills and get out. Why would you camp it if you do enough damage without needing 25 blight? This isn't PvE for max damage.

I'm talking about PVE. I'm too incompetent at PVP to make any claims there. In fractals damage hab will be dead. Literally, most of the time.

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1 minute ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

I'm talking about PVE. I'm too incompetent at PVP to make any claims there. In fractals damage hab will be dead. Literally, most of the time.

Well considering I just replied to you in the other thread that it is benching 43k dps, I think you know where the number is. 

 

As for fractals? Look if eles can spend years playing glass cannon then you can too. Worst case just take trailblazer pieces. I don't have the numbers but on scourge at least, the difference is around 7-8% dps. That is with all trailblazer, so just replace as you see fit and get more comfortable. If you can't do 43k dps with full viper then do 40k dps with trailblazer but higher base hp. boohoo

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4 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Well considering I just replied to you in the other thread that it is benching 43k dps, I think you know where the number is. 

 

As for fractals? Look if eles can spend years playing glass cannon then you can too. Worst case just take trailblazer pieces. I don't have the numbers but on scourge at least, the difference is around 7-8% dps. That is with all trailblazer, so just replace as you see fit and get more comfortable. If you can't do 43k dps with full viper then do 40k dps with trailblazer but higher base hp. boohoo

We both know there's no way in hell 43k DPS will make it to release. C'mon man. This is Anet.

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As a support player in fractals and WvW I find that the Harbinger does not compete with the current meta source of quickness whatsoever. 

The sustain that Harbinger has as a support spec is very good and I'm able to keep up permanent quickness very easily with my clumsy rotation I cobbled together. 

 

The main problem for boon Harbinger or basically any support spec that will come with the expansion is the existence of Firebrand. Firebrand does too much too easily across the board in every single content. They offer quickness, Aegis spam, reflects, cleanses, heals, might, stability. Everything you can think of a Firebrand offers easily and in great abundance.

 

If you want any new support spec to be able to compete with Firebrand toe to toe you either have to give Harbinger the same sort of utility or change all the quickness to alacrity so that it can actually compete with Alacrity Renegade— which is a competition it can actually win since it offers amazing rezzing and healing of Necromancer. 

 

As it stands, no one will pick a support Harbinger over a Firebrand in any content. For that matter no one picks anything over Firebrand anyway.

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Just spitballing some more interesting interactions with/around blight for the GM traits while distinguishing different play styles:

 

  • Cascading Corruption: The damaging aura now pulses every 2 sec and does double damage at or above 10 stacks of blight. Gain an additional stack of blight per pulse in Harbinger Shroud.
  • Deathly Haste: The aura now only triggers at or above 10 stacks of blight. All elixirs (all utility skills? all skills?) grant additional quickness at or above 10 stacks of blight.
  • Doom approaches: This trait additionally grants 10 toughness per stack of blight.

 

Changes like these could differentiate a more bursty power spec, a more interesting quickness build that likes to stay within a threshold of blight, and a tougher condi build that gets more durable as it loses max health. More importantly, it makes blight a more central mechanic to play around for all builds.

Edited by Tempest.8479
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So I played the harbinger in some HoT events, with all celestial gear, pistol/dagger + dagger/warhorn.


POTIONS : My biggest issues with the harbinger are definitely the potions, which are just so overwhelmingly boring to me, since the "only" thing they do is giving you some boons and blight. Sure boons can be really powerful, but I'm looking at the fun side of things, where I would much rather have a cool effect on them. It would be way cooler if you had some to throw, kinda like an elixir-bomb, WHERE SOMETHING HAPPENS, after you used your utility skills, instead of NOTHING, and some boons. That just bugs me way more, after playing the virtuoso, with all its glorious and shiny effects, that look amazing by the way.


BLIGHT: I didn't really felt much of it, but had to be careful when I was fighting alone. But it got me killed once, which isn't really a bad thing. But I can see, that one would have much more trouble on a more DPS-like stat combination.


PISTOL: Was ok I think. It just kinda feels a bit like all the other pistol skills in the game, which is rather sad in combination with the boring utility skills the harbinger gets.

 

HARBINGER SHROUD: Is pretty cool I'd say. I had fun blasting at enemies in super speed with the 1. The 2 was also cool, when I was close to some enemies and 3+4 just really helped to hop in and out to drop the 5 which felt awesome.

Also the Heal you get outside of shroud is really nice to keep you alive, if you don't have much blight that is.

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I tried a plaguedoctor blood carry build, a la scourge, and it seemed to comeout reasonable. Pistol seems wierdly weak regardless and I struggled to do much damage in any build outside of shroud. The blight degeneration seems to be managable if you play shroud how we used to years ago, short bursts rather than keeping it active full time, which I quite enjoyed. It's just a shame that I only felt impactful, no matter the build, while in shroud. I think it's over tuned for damage, while being out of it is undertuned.

The elixir skills got replaced very quickly. As others have said, they're just kind of boring. With the plaguedoctor, the elite elixir seemed to be kind of helpful when shared, but the cooldown was too long, to make it really all that great. The condi cleanse one is kind of neat. I kept that equipped and it was useful enough.

Loved all the CC available, frankly all the movement and leaping available made playing it feel like what willbender was trying (and failing) to be. It's a better willbender than willbender.

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5 minutes ago, DraconusShade.4590 said:

As a support player in fractals and WvW I find that the Harbinger does not compete with the current meta source of quickness whatsoever. 

The sustain that Harbinger has as a support spec is very good and I'm able to keep up permanent quickness very easily with my clumsy rotation I cobbled together. 

 

The main problem for boon Harbinger or basically any support spec that will come with the expansion is the existence of Firebrand. Firebrand does too much too easily across the board in every single content. They offer quickness, Aegis spam, reflects, cleanses, heals, might, stability. Everything you can think of a Firebrand offers easily and in great abundance.

 

If you want any new support spec to be able to compete with Firebrand toe to toe you either have to give Harbinger the same sort of utility or change all the quickness to alacrity so that it can actually compete with Alacrity Renegade— which is a competition it can actually win since it offers amazing rezzing and healing of Necromancer. 

 

As it stands, no one will pick a support Harbinger over a Firebrand in any content. For that matter no one picks anything over Firebrand anyway.

That's more FB being overtuned than anything else to be honest. 

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Honestly, I feel like the Blight mechanic misses the mark. In terms of "Risk versus Reward", it does well; up to half of your maximum health gone for potentially lots of damage fits it. However, it lacks any engagement in actual playing, besides interacting with the first set of traits. I would have loved to see Blight be more than just a stacking debuff and an "ability tax"; make it so that certain shroud skills are upgraded to better versions at certain Blight thresholds. Make Grandmaster traits mess with that threshold, so these upgraded abilities can be used at lower Blight levels, or for true "Risk vs Reward", make it require more but for an obscenely strong version of the ability.

Also, elixirs as well should be more satisfying to hit other than "gain boons". Maybe cause an point blank aoe with damage based on current Blight stacks, or a way to remove/shorted Blight effects. 

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9 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Maybe not 43k dps sure but top tier dps? Definitely

While we're at it, to put survivability in perspective.

 

Condi ele gets 10% dmg reduction from earth, and 7% more from earth attunement. And there is evade on earth sword.
Weaver gets about 500 barrier from their weapon3 - a trivial amount, but still non-zero.
Tempest get built in and buffed protection.

I'm definitely missing something, as i don't play ele. The thing is - we're scraping the bottom of the suvivability barrel here. And HB doesn't have even that. 1 evade in shroud.

Edited by Wintermute.5408
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Regarding Elixirs:

Outside of the elite and the quickness elixir the rest of them feel very unsatisfying to use.

Why can't elixirs be changed to function differently ar max Blight stacks? 25 stacks of Blight should not only buff the damage of a DPS Harbinger but also the support abilities of a Support Harbinger. 

Elixirs should give greater effects ar certain stacks of Blight and that can be implemented through traits people have to choose instead of damage traits to balance it out.

Why can't my quickness elixir also give alacrity at 25 stacks of Blight? I am sacrificing half my health to do a fraction of what a Firebrand does for free.

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6 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

While we're at it, to put survivability in perspective.

 

Condi ele gets 10% dmg reduction from earth, and 7% more from earth attunement. And there is evade on earth sword.
Weaver gets about 500 barrier from their weapon3 - a trivial amount, but still non-zero.
Tempest get built in and buffed protection.

I'm definitely missing something, as i don't play ele. The thing is - we're scraping the bottom of the suvivability barrel here. And HB doesn't have even that. 1 evade in shroud.

Ele sword also has the issue of being one of the hardest spec in the game, you also don't camp earth at all as you are constantly swapping in and out, the damage reduction is definitely negligible. Oh and is melee while as harbringer you have the option of doing range as long as you are in boon distance. Plus you are a necro, you can boon corrupt and pull, better utility really with less sacrifice really.

 

That being said, yes harbringer is squishier by a tiny little bit, which why it should be one of the top dps in the game. Not 43k bench mind you but around ele range? Sure. That's what people like me have asked for, trade off passive shroud defense for top tier dps. This is the spec.

 

The elixirs are definitely meme tier though.

Edited by Warscythes.9307
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With PVE Harbinger can be fun, but unforgiving for sure.

 

  1. Potions as some other said feel very basic and dull. With other specs I always found myself using the other talent specs, but the potions seemed so dulled down I was not excited to really use them. Animations to it lacked quite a bit too.
  2. Blight is to long. Sure I "can" be a true glass cannon with dmg. However using our Elixir Heal also damages us seems insane. Sure go ahead and heal, but let me take 10% of your health too. 😳

    Given it would be crazy to put on everything that stacks blight, but that would go from 31k HP to 15.8k. Being realistic you would manage blight and would be in more DPS based gear. I fear going into Fractals, Raids, or World boss would be a death sentence. I would be very afraid to cast anything that gives me blight as there is no mechanism to transfer it, defense or other options. 
  3. The Pistol is not really something that feels natural. Instead what about summoning options similar to Engineer with Flamethrower, or Frost Bows etc. Let their be something evil and undead that summons forth.

    Maybe a floating tome book or some sort or magic cauldron with spell animations that come from it as you cast.
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Okay so, here we go;
I dont care much about builds/buffs/nerfs cause if i'm not doing achievments and helping others, i'm on fractals and raids. And since i play only healers on both gamemodes, this doesnt matter too much.
On the other hand i'm SUPER disapointed with the skills animations (particles and effects mostly). 
Core Necro comes with black, green and black green smoke. Ok, its a base spec, has its value. Scourge came with shades, which was a completly world turn that still maintened his visual aestetic as a sand necromancer. Reaper.. i mean, he turns into DEATH and really brings the fear when you see the slash animations. Then comes the Harbringer, whichs black, green and black green smoke all over again.  
On the plus side, he got a FINE visual identity base with that bodys hanging on the shroud 5 and cool particles on dashes and shotgun (shroud 2), but i think THAT could be reflect and be the theme in the whole Harbringer Kit . Its fine that hes the "oh my god i feel pain to cause pain" "blight omg" and stuff, i feel that at least pistol should have diferent animations, sounds and visual effects insted of beeing green engineers pistol. Doesnt feel unique AT ALL. Elixirs are SO boring to use that i feel like using wells instead of elixirs just cause its seriously boring.
Also, Anet, please... just talk to the illustrator that did the Elixirs icons or the responsible for reviewing and approving it. It is SO boring and SO sad to see a big company that has/had GREAT artists (Ahmed Aldoori *best one yet*) doing such a poor job in simple skill icon designs. Harbringer need more visual identity to be more inviting. Hes a plaguedoctor/alchemist guy, please make him look like one.  

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First impressions in pvp are that it has more sustain than I expected, and less damage. It is really hard to judge right now as I am playing into a lot of beta specs where we all aren't as practiced as normal specs. I am only flashing shroud so aren't building up very high blight stacks. I think it is fun, but at the moment I don't think it is more effective than other necro specs, but it isn't terrible. 

 

In pvp I am not getting much use from the power and condi grandmasters, as I am flashing shroud and not staying in melee, the quickness trait to me seems the automatic pick.

 

I wish the elixirs are more interesting, and one of the utilities did somethign different to just giving boons. 

 

I found power damage dissapointing, reaper seems burstier.

 

Open world I thought in condi it is strong, but pretty much every class is. After trying zerker on golem I didn't bother trying it in pve.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Acyk.9671 said:

Unfortunately for you and everyone in your situation, PvE shouldn't impact an e-spec design that much.

Staying alive in PvE is up to how you position yourself and your support. Anet can always reduce the impact of blight through numbers anyway.

 

Guild wars 2 is just as much a pve game as its pvp.   If two dodges isnt enough because you have zero defense abilities, there is a problem.

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OK so, this is just my opinion therefor is highly subjective. What I wish ANet would have said about Harbinger, prior to beta, was that they designed this class with instanced PVE in mind. It does absolutely nothing that reaper or scourge doesn't do better outside of instanced PVE. Pistol is garbage, plain and simple. You can hit big numbers in shroud when built in to power, but I found it was only under very specific circumstances with absolutely zero defence.

 

The elixirs are just bad. No way around it. ANet did a very bad job on the elixirs. Outside of the elite, I quickly replaced all of them. That heal elixir??? really, that's the best you can do ANet???? at least put some regen on some elixirs so you can actually be a support. And the boon share. How long do any of us think that this will last. The community and ANet thought boon share was so toxic and so bad for the game that they nerfed the kitten out of it only to reintroduce it on necro?? can't help but think they were scrambling for ideas on this one. Even if ANet decides to keep the boon share as it is, I really do feel you will just be the necro version of Bubble Bot healbreaker, that doesn't sound like a fun spot to be in.

 

ANet said they want high risk, high reward. It's only risk. You get cc'd once while in shroud, you are dead. No stun breaks in shroud. To be fair the movement does feel nice. The skill 5 in shroud is decent too.

 

Again this is just my opinion, but I think Harbinger is the most half baked spec in the game in its current iteration. I can only hope that this was in the first beta because ANet knew it wasn't in a good spot and wanted to gather data so they can make adjustments. I feel like they had a solid idea in Harbinger, but hit a wall in implementation and failed to execute on almost every level.

 

And look, I really want this to be good. I'm a necro main so I reluctantly admit I have high hopes. I just can't shake the feeling that Harbinger is a bust. It needs some major reworks.

 

I know I offered no solutions. I just wanted to say what I wanted to say while it was fresh in my mind.

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@work, will be for a while and the same for the rest of the week but some comments made sense to me as I watch the updates at a loss of productivity.

 

Damage output should scale with Blight while sustain when unsupported by allies should scale inversely. This is a general impression.

 

Can elixer effects and durations scale with Blight stacks, too?

 

It feels like potency should increase as actual health decreases so with 1k health damage would be amazing. I'll bet the dev's already investigated this, though; don't want to be downed all the time for tryimg to play on the edge but maybe a little scaling would be fun.

 

Edit

Of course, I also mean the opposite should be true, that damage output should decrease the closer to full, max health with no Blight.

Edited by Anchoku.8142
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