Willbender f tier

[RedAvenged.5217]

Best builds I’ve seen are a roaming burst build and avatar symbols.

 

symbols has some really nice mechanics with the stab and ppl compare the roaming version to rev. But be real! It so insanely weak!!!

[Bast.7253]

Yeah, that's why you wait for metabattle to publish any of the 3 different harbinger builds I've seen tonight. 

Looking forward to another necro filled meta. 

[xELDAx.3749]

It's interesting rushdown  class but you lose a lot of bunkering and blocking compared viable class core or dh. The utils are very weak. The elite skill feels like a generic throwaway utility. The F 1-3 skills are interesting but need to be a bit better.  The sword off-hand doesn't feel too rewarding or does that much damage. The traitline seems kinda meh. Would have been nice if this class was the hard counter to DH

[Noz.4650]

Both Harbinger and Willbender have cool themes but end up feeling super generic because they tried to do too much with them. It makes it unclear what exactly you're playing and most of the skills don't feel much different to use. Like did Willbender need this much mobility? There's just so little substance to it. With Harbinger the pistol and shroud skills are fun but the elixirs badly need more design and functional variety. Also, blight doesn't really interact with the rest of the spec in fun ways that can lead to interesting decision making. I could be super off here because I don't play much guard or necro but just a first impression. Virtuoso is pretty sick though kudos there ANet.

[Carles A.6297]

It's been a while since I've posted in this censored forums, this beta is proof of how well arenanet knows their game (Not at all).
Althought with this game balance, one should expect nothing better than this.

Only the competitive modes have some value in this game, pve is mobile mmo tier, yet those guys haven't had a good balance since core days, it saddens my heart to look how this company trashed this franchise.

 

[UNOwen.7132]

Tbh I get the feeling people are judging this class wrong. Its a high mobility class. Dont compare it to other Guardians, compare it to thief. The mobility on flat surfaces seems comparable (and superior if youre +1ing and can teleport on someone with any of your teleports), while the damage, sustain, cc and utility are all obviously superior. If the mobility proves itself to actually match that of thief, its gonna be a really good class, you just have to play it like a thief. But that requires more thorough testing.

[hoodride.7862]

Gees you people are so dramatic…you do know these specs don’t actually release until next year right?  You’re also aware that they will be removed at the end of the week?  People speak as if this is the new meta and these specs are already released in their final form…

[Guirssane.7082]

19 minutes ago, hoodride.7862 said:

Gees you people are so dramatic…you do know these specs don’t actually release until next year right?  You’re also aware that they will be removed at the end of the week?  People speak as if this is the new meta and these specs are already released in their final form…

Everybody is aware of that.
So we're not allowed to give feedback? If it doesn't feel strong it doesn't feel strong, what can we say except what have been said multiples times about it

Edited August 18, 2021 by Guirssane.7082

[Ragnar.4257]

20 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Tbh I get the feeling people are judging this class wrong. Its a high mobility class. Dont compare it to other Guardians, compare it to thief. The mobility on flat surfaces seems comparable (and superior if youre +1ing and can teleport on someone with any of your teleports), while the damage, sustain, cc and utility are all obviously superior. If the mobility proves itself to actually match that of thief, its gonna be a really good class, you just have to play it like a thief. But that requires more thorough testing.

The mobility does not even slightly come close to matching thief. You also completely neglect to mention stealth. And I'm not sure how you decided the damage is superior - the "high damage" skill on sword-offhand hits about as hard as Shadowshot. Or about as hard as Larcenous Strike, but minus the unblockable, and the boonrip, and the evade.

 

In no way shape or form is WB going to compete for the Thief slot. It may, with some buffs, be able to compete with Shiro-Rev.

 

Everyone yesterday watching top-tier players in ATs feeding hard on WB and agreeing it sucks, but nah, UNOwen knows better, it's clearly S-tier.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Willbender either needs more sustain so it can be a roaming duelist like holo or rev, or it needs more reliable burst so it can fulfill the role of a pure roamer like thief.

[UNOwen.7132]

28 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

The mobility does not even slightly come close to matching thief. You also completely neglect to mention stealth. And I'm not sure how you decided the damage is superior - the "high damage" skill on sword-offhand hits about as hard as Shadowshot. Or about as hard as Larcenous Strike, but minus the unblockable, and the boonrip, and the evade.

 

In no way shape or form is WB going to compete for the Thief slot. It may, with some buffs, be able to compete with Shiro-Rev.

 

Everyone yesterday watching top-tier players in ATs feeding hard on WB and agreeing it sucks, but nah, UNOwen knows better, it's clearly S-tier.

On flat surfaces at least ... it does actually. I tested it, going from one gate to the other in Foefire takes 18.5 seconds for the thief, and 19 seconds for the Willbender, and thats with a bit of an unfortunate cycle for the willbender. Stealth, there are several thief builds that dont use stealth (S/D chief among them), and stealth is also honestly *the* most overrated thing in the game. I didnt mention it because it looks pathetic compared to block or outright invuln. 

 

As for the damage, its not that great, but thieves is just that pathetic. The "high damage" skill does way more damage than shadowshot or larcenous strike. Its total coefficient is 2.0. Larcenous Strike is 1.3, Shadow Shot 1.3125. And Guardian also has the better damage multipliers, so that gap widens. Its actually a better damage skill than backstab. Backstab will hit for 4.5k-5k max, Ive managed to get 7k+ damage on executioners calling. And thats just one of the skills you have that do decent damage.

 

It depends on how the mobility shapes up exactly. Youd need to do more tests, I only tested it on flat surfaces for a specific distance. Maybe the mobility falls short. Maybe it doesnt. But if it doesnt, yeah its 100% competing for the thief slot. Or rather, completely eclipsing it.

 

Wouldnt be the first time people played a class wrong in the first beta and as a result made it look a lot worse than it is. Im not saying its definitely going to be good, as I said, the mobility testing is not finished. But I am saying that people are looking at it wrong 100%.

Edited August 18, 2021 by UNOwen.7132

[Darknicrofia.2604]

Anet took a traditionally weak side node class that has bad sustained damage and 1v1 capabilities and gut its defenses even further by removing the virtue passives and decided that adding 3 450 range dashes was enough of a trade off to call it an "assassin class".

 

Good joke.

[Brokensunday.4098]

Mobility is ok but skills have to much aftercast making your skills miss bu just moving, damage is average, the spec is a worst core guard at moment.

[RedAvenged.5217]

3 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

The mobility does not even slightly come close to matching thief. You also completely neglect to mention stealth. And I'm not sure how you decided the damage is superior - the "high damage" skill on sword-offhand hits about as hard as Shadowshot. Or about as hard as Larcenous Strike, but minus the unblockable, and the boonrip, and the evade.

 

In no way shape or form is WB going to compete for the Thief slot. It may, with some buffs, be able to compete with Shiro-Rev.

 

Everyone yesterday watching top-tier players in ATs feeding hard on WB and agreeing it sucks, but nah, UNOwen knows better, it's clearly S-tier.

Yeah I feel the idea of it being thief is lame, I saw plenty of people play roaming builds and suck.

 

I actually thought playing sage symbols was the best(mostly cuz you don’t feed) for it- the whirlwind kick is better than soj now by a lot and when you teleport around it’s hard to get hit.

 

even then on a more “consistent” build like that- it didn’t feel that consistent ...

[RedAvenged.5217]

3 hours ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Tbh I get the feeling people are judging this class wrong. Its a high mobility class. Dont compare it to other Guardians, compare it to thief. The mobility on flat surfaces seems comparable (and superior if youre +1ing and can teleport on someone with any of your teleports), while the damage, sustain, cc and utility are all obviously superior. If the mobility proves itself to actually match that of thief, its gonna be a really good class, you just have to play it like a thief. But that requires more thorough testing.

Tbh I’d be fine if they made it function like thief by buffing stuff , but I’d say the most accurate at least based on this beta would be like a zerker warrior ...

[Ragnar.4257]

4 hours ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

On flat surfaces at least ... it does actually. I tested it, going from one gate to the other in Foefire takes 18.5 seconds for the thief, and 19 seconds for the Willbender, and thats with a bit of an unfortunate cycle for the willbender. Stealth, there are several thief builds that dont use stealth (S/D chief among them), and stealth is also honestly *the* most overrated thing in the game. I didnt mention it because it looks pathetic compared to block or outright invuln. 

 

As for the damage, its not that great, but thieves is just that pathetic. The "high damage" skill does way more damage than shadowshot or larcenous strike. Its total coefficient is 2.0. Larcenous Strike is 1.3, Shadow Shot 1.3125. And Guardian also has the better damage multipliers, so that gap widens. Its actually a better damage skill than backstab. Backstab will hit for 4.5k-5k max, Ive managed to get 7k+ damage on executioners calling. And thats just one of the skills you have that do decent damage.

 

It depends on how the mobility shapes up exactly. Youd need to do more tests, I only tested it on flat surfaces for a specific distance. Maybe the mobility falls short. Maybe it doesnt. But if it doesnt, yeah its 100% competing for the thief slot. Or rather, completely eclipsing it.

 

Wouldnt be the first time people played a class wrong in the first beta and as a result made it look a lot worse than it is. Im not saying its definitely going to be good, as I said, the mobility testing is not finished. But I am saying that people are looking at it wrong 100%.

Exactly what kind of thief build were you using to make it that distance in 18.5 seconds.

 

I've just tried it myself, and simply with shortbow+shadowstep I can do it in 13 seconds, while I also get a time of 19 seconds with WB. Didn't even use Steal.

 

I mean, what actual mobility does WB actually add? 2x 450 range dash, 1x 600 range teleport from the virtues, thats less than 2x Inflitrators Arrow. Equating JI to Shadowstep is being extremely generous, since the former requires a target, and the latter not only doesn't need a target, but can also be used to return, and cleanses to boot. None of the other mobility added on WB will actually be used in a real build. Maybe sword-offhand...... which is a 500 range dash. That's barely more than a daredevil dash.

 

Harbinger Shroud adds more mobility than this.

 

This is all as well ignoring that vertical mobility is significantly more valuable than horizontal. Soulbeast can also cover ridiculous distance over flat ground, but that doesn't make it compete with Thief.

 

And this is also ignoring...... what do you do when you arrive? A steal+backstab onto a target can secure a downed if timed properly. A WB porting in with swords will not generate a downed. It will generate laugther. Sword #4 struggles to connect even on stationary targets. And even if it does, with full glass build it doesn't hit more than 4.5k. Reminder, that's supposed to be the "big damage skill". A necro or a holo or w/e else can literally just stand still and trade blows with you, and they won't go below 80% HP before you're in downstate.

 

There's a reason why the mantra in every single game is "focus the WB" and its not that they're such a threat. It's that they're a free kill.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Oslaf Beinir.5842]

you might as well put it in the garbage can right next to Firebrand in PvP

[Vancho.8750]

42 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Exactly what kind of thief build were you using to make it that distance in 18.5 seconds.

 

I've just tried it myself, and simply with shortbow+shadowstep I can do it in 13 seconds, while I also get a time of 19 seconds with WB. Didn't even use Steal.

 

I mean, what actual mobility does WB actually add? 2x 450 range dash, 1x 600 range teleport from the virtues, thats less than 2x Inflitrators Arrow. Equating JI to Shadowstep is being extremely generous, since the former requires a target, and the latter not only doesn't need a target, but can also be used to return, and cleanses to boot. None of the other mobility added on WB will actually be used in a real build. Maybe sword-offhand...... which is a 500 range dash. That's barely more than a daredevil dash.

 

Harbinger Shroud adds more mobility than this.

 

This is all as well ignoring that vertical mobility is significantly more valuable than horizontal. Soulbeast can also cover ridiculous distance over flat ground, but that doesn't make it compete with Thief.

 

And this is also ignoring...... what do you do when you arrive? A steal+backstab onto a target can secure a downed if timed properly. A WB porting in with swords will not generate a downed. It will generate laugther. A necro or a holo or w/e else can literally just stand still and trade blows with you, and they won't go below 80% HP before you're in downstate.

Secretly the Harbinger is the mobility speck(it even has Vault animation) and it is the necro take on P/D condi build on thief,  instead of stealth and dodges it has regen and HP that drops to glass if they want to do damage.

Willbender might be good if it is going for shiro rev  holo roamer type, but it needs its clunkiness fixed, so the goal here would be to make it close to Shiro Rev. As of right now I think that one Speed rune Shouts Core GS build is doing better job as a roamer than Willbender.      

[Darknicrofia.2604]

Shiro Rev also pisses out unblockables and has tracking attacks with built in evade frames, 0 of WB's attacks are unblockable, good assassin build... 😕

[UNOwen.7132]

1 hour ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Exactly what kind of thief build were you using to make it that distance in 18.5 seconds.

 

I've just tried it myself, and simply with shortbow+shadowstep I can do it in 13 seconds, while I also get a time of 19 seconds with WB. Didn't even use Steal.

 

I mean, what actual mobility does WB actually add? 2x 450 range dash, 1x 600 range teleport from the virtues, thats less than 2x Inflitrators Arrow. Equating JI to Shadowstep is being extremely generous, since the former requires a target, and the latter not only doesn't need a target, but can also be used to return, and cleanses to boot. None of the other mobility added on WB will actually be used in a real build. Maybe sword-offhand...... which is a 500 range dash. That's barely more than a daredevil dash.

 

Harbinger Shroud adds more mobility than this.

 

This is all as well ignoring that vertical mobility is significantly more valuable than horizontal. Soulbeast can also cover ridiculous distance over flat ground, but that doesn't make it compete with Thief.

 

And this is also ignoring...... what do you do when you arrive? A steal+backstab onto a target can secure a downed if timed properly. A WB porting in with swords will not generate a downed. It will generate laugther. Sword #4 struggles to connect even on stationary targets. And even if it does, with full glass build it doesn't hit more than 4.5k. Reminder, that's supposed to be the "big damage skill". A necro or a holo or w/e else can literally just stand still and trade blows with you, and they won't go below 80% HP before you're in downstate.

 

There's a reason why the mantra in every single game is "focus the WB" and its not that they're such a threat. It's that they're a free kill.

Standard DD thief? Did you forget they nerfed shortbow 5? Now you only get 3 shortbow 5 activations in those 18 seconds. I did not use Shadowstep because youre not using shadowstep for out of combat mobility, that would be really stupid. Its your main stunbreak and your main defense against condis. Even if you did, it should only shave off 3 seconds (since thats how much youd need to cover 1200 with movement speed). 

 

2 450 unit dashes, a 600 unit teleport, a 500 unit dash, and basically perma swiftness out of combat. Thats ontop of the mobility Guardian already had. And thanks to Restoration Virtues, you can slice those cooldowns off quite nicely. The bigger edge it has is that Guardian can frontload mobility a lot more. Thief can do 2 shortbow 5s in a row, but usually if you do that your +1 is gonna be useless because thats all of your initiative. 

 

Necro has less baseline, and lifeforce does limit its use out of combat. 

 

Vertical mobility does matter, but as much as youd think. Its primarily relevant on 2 maps, and on one of them its only relevant for moving in 3 specific spots. Thief probably gets more movement there, but in other maps? Who knows.

 

Uh, damage? Guardian does WAY more damage than thief. Steal + backstab does 5k at most. A good enough amount for +1s, but lets be real here, its not terribly impressive. Guardian? Guardian is easily gonna burst for 7k+. Sword 4 does over 7k damage on just a standard radiant greatsword Willbender. Its Backstab thats not gonna do more than 4.5k (if even that). And then you have Greatsword 2, which will casually do more than twice the damage of backstab. Youre not gonna 1v1, but thief isnt gonna 1v1 either. And if you try to focus Willbender, he just runs away. Its like focusing thief. Sure if they dont run away, theyre a free kill. But theyre gonna run away.

[Ragnar.4257]

52 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Standard DD thief? Did you forget they nerfed shortbow 5? Now you only get 3 shortbow 5 activations in those 18 seconds. I did not use Shadowstep because youre not using shadowstep for out of combat mobility, that would be really stupid. Its your main stunbreak and your main defense against condis. Even if you did, it should only shave off 3 seconds (since thats how much youd need to cover 1200 with movement speed). 

 

2 450 unit dashes, a 600 unit teleport, a 500 unit dash, and basically perma swiftness out of combat. Thats ontop of the mobility Guardian already had. And thanks to Restoration Virtues, you can slice those cooldowns off quite nicely. The bigger edge it has is that Guardian can frontload mobility a lot more. Thief can do 2 shortbow 5s in a row, but usually if you do that your +1 is gonna be useless because thats all of your initiative. 

 

Necro has less baseline, and lifeforce does limit its use out of combat. 

 

Vertical mobility does matter, but as much as youd think. Its primarily relevant on 2 maps, and on one of them its only relevant for moving in 3 specific spots. Thief probably gets more movement there, but in other maps? Who knows.

 

Uh, damage? Guardian does WAY more damage than thief. Steal + backstab does 5k at most. A good enough amount for +1s, but lets be real here, its not terribly impressive. Guardian? Guardian is easily gonna burst for 7k+. Sword 4 does over 7k damage on just a standard radiant greatsword Willbender. Its Backstab thats not gonna do more than 4.5k (if even that). And then you have Greatsword 2, which will casually do more than twice the damage of backstab. Youre not gonna 1v1, but thief isnt gonna 1v1 either. And if you try to focus Willbender, he just runs away. Its like focusing thief. Sure if they dont run away, theyre a free kill. But theyre gonna run away.

Okay, sword #4 hits for 7k. Right. Sure.

 

Straight up delusional.

 

Here is Sword 4 on light golem, with all radiance traits, resolution active, berserker amulet + eagle rune.

 

https://i.imgur.com/MOawhjR.jpg

 

5k damage. And that's ignoring that it is SIGNIFICANTLY harder to land than backstab. And requires all 3 hits to crit.

 

5k damage is garbage-tier for a "big hitter" with a long windup. This is 2 autos from most dps builds. Ranger pets do more damage than this.

 

Maul hits that hard, before you even consider Sic 'Em. And WB is *significantly* glassier than any ranger build. Think about how hard Spinal Shivers hits, or Winters Bite, or basically any grenade skill. WB #4 shouldn't just be equal to those, it should be more, because you are so ludicrously squishy.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[UNOwen.7132]

40 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Okay, sword #4 hits for 7k. Right. Sure.

 

Straight up delusional.

 

Here is Sword 4 on light golem, with all radiance traits, resolution active, berserker amulet + eagle rune.

 

https://i.imgur.com/MOawhjR.jpg

 

5k damage. And that's ignoring that it is SIGNIFICANTLY harder to land than backstab. And requires all 3 hits to crit.

 

5k damage is garbage-tier for a "big hitter" with a long windup. This is 2 autos from most dps builds. Ranger pets do more damage than this.

Yeah, it does. Here, have a screen:

 

https://imgur.com/a/bsESbkM

 

In fact, its possible for it to go a lot higher than that even. 

 

https://imgur.com/a/ydUYQRT

 

In this you can see my build, and it doing a casual 9k damage. I have no idea how you managed to make it do that little damage, but its not what the damage it actually does. And yes, backstab is easier to land, but backstab also requires more resources and slows down your mobility. And keep in mind, executioners calling isnt your best damage ability. Thats GS2, which does up to 11k damage. Yeah its not comparable, Willbender blows thief out of the watter, and it does a lot of damage for a +1 build. 

 

 

[Ragnar.4257]

8 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Yeah, it does. Here, have a screen:

 

https://imgur.com/a/bsESbkM

 

In fact, its possible for it to go a lot higher than that even. 

 

https://imgur.com/a/ydUYQRT

 

In this you can see my build, and it doing a casual 9k damage. I have no idea how you managed to make it do that little damage, but its not what the damage it actually does. And yes, backstab is easier to land, but backstab also requires more resources and slows down your mobility. And keep in mind, executioners calling isnt your best damage ability. Thats GS2, which does up to 11k damage. Yeah its not comparable, Willbender blows thief out of the watter, and it does a lot of damage for a +1 build. 

 

 

Sure, if you make a joke build that can't actually be played. Unscathed Contender? Seriously?

 

You can also make backstab hit 10k+ with a meme build.

 

Does that mean we should consider that in a real scenario?

 

The typical values I'm seeing for this skill in actual PvP games with an actual usable build are in the 4-5k region. And that's for the 1 or 2 times each game it actually connects.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Ragnar.4257]

You actually can't escape from a Harbinger with this spec.

 

Can a thief escape from a Harbinger? Yes. Can a WB? No.

 

Mobility that only allows you to close distances is not the same as mobility that allows you to do either.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[UNOwen.7132]

1 minute ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Sure, if you make a joke build that can't actually be played.

 

You can also make backstab hit 10k+ with a meme build.

 

Does that mean we should consider that in a real scenario?

First of all, this is just radiant greatsword replacing Valor with Willbender (youre a +1 build, you dont build defensive) or a DH build replacing DH with Willbender, second of all, even if you replaced Virtues with Valor (You shouldnt, youre a +1 build), it still does almost 7k. 

 

https://imgur.com/W2P6KIX

 

Hell, replace Radiance with Valor instead, and you still get 6k.

 

https://imgur.com/a/K1GRAzi

 

And I should note, you should be doing *neither* of these builds. Youre a +1 build, build like one.

 

Oh and you cant get backstab to 10k even with a meme build. For an out of nowhere surprise backstab, the best you can do is maybe 8.5k, but thats with bound, and at that point the builds issue isnt just that it dies, but that its damage multipliers wont even be active 95% of the time and you wont get that damage outside of test golems (you can get that damage on willbender in a real game tho).