Soulcleave's Summit buff

[Stavros.8249]

So the cost drop from 8 to 6. How this affect the renegade?

Does it get more dps? Easyer rotation maybe? 

Happy to hear your thoughts

Interested for pve

I started 2 weeks ago power alacrity renegade. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Stavros.8249

[Oldyoung.6109]

makes heal alac much easier but makes power ren Charged Mists harder to proc in rotation.

[RabbitUp.8294]

I haven't actually tried it in-game yet, only had a chance to play the beta, but I'm actually hyped to play heal Rene again. Now that it can be up all the time while channelling Kalla, our healing output shouldn't fluctuate so much anymore. Probably can get away with staying on sw/sw too.

 

By the way, totally off topic but I love the combo field visuals, I can actually see when my Mallyx elite is toggled on now, and it looks awesome.

[Dahkeus.8243]

9 hours ago, Oldyoung.6109 said:

makes heal alac much easier but makes power ren Charged Mists harder to proc in rotation.

Yea, but it may also mean that you can just squeeze in some more skills to burn energy.  I haven't played a really serious rotation of it, but I imagine you would just squeeze in a heroic command or two to burn through enough energy to offset the reduced kalla cost.  In a perfect group, this does nothing since might would be stacked to 25 already, but in some scenarios, this could be some nice supplemental might to help out.

[Nephalem.8921]

2 hours ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

Yea, but it may also mean that you can just squeeze in some more skills to burn energy.  I haven't played a really serious rotation of it, but I imagine you would just squeeze in a heroic command or two to burn through enough energy to offset the reduced kalla cost.  In a perfect group, this does nothing since might would be stacked to 25 already, but in some scenarios, this could be some nice supplemental might to help out.

Nope you dont use kalla elite as an alac ren in 99% of situations anymore period. You have to press heroic command in fractals btw.

Its just better to spend the energy on icerazor and more weapon skills or citadel bombardment instead of elite. All revenant elites besides mallyx are very bad in pve currently.

There are plenty of tools to be low enough energy for charged mists. You should never use kalla elite to achieve that. Massive casttime for no reward.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

19 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Nope you dont use kalla elite as an alac ren in 99% of situations anymore period. You have to press heroic command in fractals btw.

Its just better to spend the energy on icerazor and more weapon skills or citadel bombardment instead of elite. All revenant elites besides mallyx are very bad in pve currently.

There are plenty of tools to be low enough energy for charged mists. You should never use kalla elite to achieve that. Massive casttime for no reward.

This is the correct answer even with the “confused” emojis on the post.  At least before this patch and minor buff Soulcleave (post ICD nerf) was a waste and net loss in damage (even with allies) for Alacrigade compared to using your damage skills.  I haven’t tested/calced it yet but I don’t think -6 upkeep makes it viable still 

 

my concern with the nerf to “-6” is that this feels like the final buff they’ll give it. Now that it’s lower energy cost it becomes harder to justify buffing it further, even if it’s still a shell of its former self (which was fairly broken).  An ICD increase to 1/2 would still be nice for the skill 

Edited August 20, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[RabbitUp.8294]

8 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

This is the correct answer even with the “confused” emojis on the post.  At least before this patch and minor buff Soulcleave (post ICD nerf) was a waste and net loss in damage (even with allies) for Alacrigade compared to using your damage skills.  I haven’t tested/calced it yet but I don’t think -6 upkeep makes it viable still 

 

my concern with the nerf to “-6” is that this feels like the final buff they’ll give it. Now that it’s lower energy cost it becomes harder to justify buffing it further, even if it’s still a shell of its former self (which was fairly broken).  An ICD increase to 1/2 would still be nice for the skill 

The buff is fairly significant, it's 20 less energy spent over the course of 10 seconds.

 

Personally, if there was to be a buff to Soulcleave, I would want an increase to 10 targets.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

17 hours ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

The buff is fairly significant, it's 20 less energy spent over the course of 10 seconds.

While true, it also comes with an opportunity cost. If you’re using Soulcleave you’re also losing out on any energy generation during that time period as well. This means over the course of 10 seconds you’re really expending about 65 energy to utilize Soulcleave for the entirety of the Kalla loop.  In order for Soulcleave to be desired as part of the rotation, Soulcleave’s group damage buff has to be high enough to warrant not using that 65 energy on other damaging skills.  Before this patch the -8 upkeep meant that Soulcleave had to be worth more than about 85 energy. The -6 upkeep IS a big buff (65 energy vs 85 energy), but I’m not sure it’s enough to make Soulcleave relevant again in the rotation.  

[RabbitUp.8294]

1 hour ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

While true, it also comes with an opportunity cost. If you’re using Soulcleave you’re also losing out on any energy generation during that time period as well. This means over the course of 10 seconds you’re really expending about 65 energy to utilize Soulcleave for the entirety of the Kalla loop.  In order for Soulcleave to be desired as part of the rotation, Soulcleave’s group damage buff has to be high enough to warrant not using that 65 energy on other damaging skills.  Before this patch the -8 upkeep meant that Soulcleave had to be worth more than about 85 energy. The -6 upkeep IS a big buff (65 energy vs 85 energy), but I’m not sure it’s enough to make Soulcleave relevant again in the rotation.  

The same could be said for all of our upkeeps, though. Only difference is that Soulcleave has a longer cast time, and costs 5 more energy. The rotation is not only limited by energy, but by cooldowns too. 

 

Condi variants have greater need for energy and get less profit from Soulcleave, but I feel like power and heal builds have no reason not to have it up all the time they are on Kalla.

[Nephalem.8921]

9 hours ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

The same could be said for all of our upkeeps, though. Only difference is that Soulcleave has a longer cast time, and costs 5 more energy. The rotation is not only limited by energy, but by cooldowns too. 

 

Condi variants have greater need for energy and get less profit from Soulcleave, but I feel like power and heal builds have no reason not to have it up all the time they are on Kalla.

It does 400 dmg per second per person. 500 if you are very generous. Thats 2.5k total per second or 25k in 10seconds for 65 energy. Icerazor is worth something up to 40-50k dmg or even more. Even citadel bombardment does more. Sword 4 + 5 are really close aswell.

There is your reason why power builds shouldn't have it up. Its bad. Really bad.

[ArthurDent.9538]

4 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

It does 400 dmg per second per person. 500 if you are very generous. Thats 2.5k total per second or 25k in 10seconds for 65 energy. Icerazor is worth something up to 40-50k dmg or even more. Even citadel bombardment does more. Sword 4 + 5 are really close aswell.

There is your reason why power builds shouldn't have it up. Its bad. Really bad.

I kind of have to disagree in that it also has a healing component which adds value when the group is taking damage pressure so it doesn't necessarily need to be a straight dps increase in optimal scenarios to be useful. I still don't like the changes, when Kalla was viable in pvp it was based around building up to your big soulcleave burst every 20 secs where you get stab road down then soulcleave, icerazor, shortbow 4, seven shot for your big damage + resustain burst. The point being soulcleave was all about synergizing with all the multi hit skills renegade brings and it just doesn't now. The synergy is gone its just another skill tacked on to the legend without rhyme or reason just like all of the orders from above. Would rather them just keep tuning down the damage/healing per proc rather than ruining what what little mechanically interesting there was in Kalla gameplay. Also making it cheaper just makes it feel less elite skill which should be high cost but powerful effect, now its just kind of meh all around.

 

Also soulcleave wasn't even used on condi builds pre nerf or really much at all until power alacrigade finally became mainstream with diviner's introduction. So I really don't buy the argument it was broken and couldn't have been "balanced" by reducing the healing/damage per proc.

[RabbitUp.8294]

15 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

It does 400 dmg per second per person. 500 if you are very generous. Thats 2.5k total per second or 25k in 10seconds for 65 energy. Icerazor is worth something up to 40-50k dmg or even more. Even citadel bombardment does more. Sword 4 + 5 are really close aswell.

There is your reason why power builds shouldn't have it up. Its bad. Really bad.

 

You actually have to spend your energy on something in the end and power builds doesn't have as many cooldowns to use compared to condi. Even if the total damage might end up lower than say Citadel, you are ignoring the healing component. 578 heal/sec with no healing power is quite significant.

[lorddarkflare.9186]

Honestly I am just happy that Heal Renegade is solidly back on the menu with this.

Hell, that build might actually be better now that you can actually perform other actions while in Kalla maybe.

[SeTect.5918]

And again, Renegade gets buffed while herald sits next to it and says:

"what? Wasnt support n Tank my thing?"

Renegade: "Are you suuure?😏"

[Zenith.7301]

2 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

And again, Renegade gets buffed while herald sits next to it and says:

"what? Wasnt support n Tank my thing?"

Renegade: "Are you suuure?😏"

 

 

What Herald needs is to be the alternative to banner warrior. Just have Facets emulate banner buffs.

 

Banner warrior is the single support spec in the game without any competitors.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Brunnsteinangel.2568]

Fun fact: Boon Herald is awesome (MightyTeapot has an amazing video for this), but you know...

PvE Endgame community sucks... how dare to bring something that is not main stream meta!

[Aeolus.3615]

1 hour ago, Brunnsteinangel.2568 said:

Fun fact: Boon Herald is awesome (MightyTeapot has an amazing video for this), but you know...

PvE Endgame community sucks... how dare to bring something that is not main stream meta!

 

Wich is basicly what what or very close to any zerker Herald/shiro runs  :|

The most diference would be that group play one takes assassin presense for crit ouput and for more solo gameplay one would use thrill of combat-