My problem with harbinger pvp wise.

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

Look, Harbinger is an interesting class... Pve wise. Basically lowering your max health to deal high damage. And you know what, that's fine. I'm ok with that. But what I'm not ok with is what this class offers Pvp wise. Because what harbinger offers in pvp is garbage.

Why do we still have no defensive abilities? In fact, why isn't there a way to cc break in shroud, in a specialization where shroud no longer protects me? We have no blocks, no Invulnerability, we have one evade, but that's it. We only get one stability, but that only if you're going for the power harbinger route. The other source of stabability is though the lich elite skill. We don't have stealth, nor do we have mobility or even shadowstep. We got two gap closers I suppose, but for the most part, we don't have anything to protect ourselves beside blinds. To make even matters worst, We have the blight mechanic, which lowers your max health the longer you're in it, or whenever you use an elixir. (Who in their right mind would use them in pvp though?) Making you even more susceptible to burst damage then you already are, ok? So when you use the harbinger shroud, sure you can deal a lot of damage, that's not something to be questioned. But why does that matter when the moment you use shroud, A pvp player who have half a brain who knows necro are weak to lockdowns, are gonna do just that. And don't forget, shroud doesn't protect us anymore, so all the damage they're doing to us in shroud? is going directly at our health, not our life force. So when you combine the fact that you can't cc break in shroud, any damage you take goes into your health while in shroud, and the blight system that adds up while in shroud, it's just a recipe for disaster.

You can argue that I shouldn't be camping shroud, and that's true. You shouldn't be camping shroud in a pvp setting. But that's not my problem. My problem is the fact that after 3 expansion, besides maybe scourge we have nothing to protect us or even defend ourselves when we get in a tight spot. Harbinger Amplify that problem , and make that weakness far more apparent then any other necro elite specialization up to this point.

And here's the thing. Again, yes, it does a lot of damage, You can even argue that harbinger deserve no defense because of the damage it can deal. And I would agree with you on that, if it wasn't for the fact that classes like thief can deal the same burst damage a harbinger can, With perma stealth, evade, Vigor, more dodge roll stamina to work with, blinds, and far more mobility options then harbinger. And thieves are squishy classes, lets not kid ourselves, but they have the tools to protect themselves. All Necro had was life force. It's the only thing we had to protect us from damage. And even with life force, it doesn't mean kitten when you have no means to sustain yourself and protect yourself from harm.

 

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Edited August 18, 2021 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267

[LucianDK.8615]

Well said, theres people claiming that you 'only' need your two dodges to survive anything with a low health pool that the necro was never built for.

[Warscythes.9307]

Harbringer is actually incredibly tanky in PvP because you sustain like a monster. You are not going to be in shroud long enough for the blight stacks to matter. Every single PvP harbringer I see roll around with 30k hp and regen like hulk. How are you playing harbringer in PvP?

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

2 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Harbringer is actually incredibly tanky in PvP because you sustain like a monster. You are not going to be in shroud long enough for the blight stacks to matter. Every single PvP harbringer I see roll around with 30k hp and regen like hulk. How are you playing harbringer in PvP?

Here the thing, It does has sustain, I will give you that. But that won't matter on the grand scheme of things because anyone who is worth their salt will burst you down, sustain or no. Harbinger is too predictable, and once people figure that out, harbinger will be dogged down constantly with no way to defend ourselves. Why do you think classes like guardian is able to sustain so well, despite having extremely low health? It's because they have block, they have vulnerabilities, they have aegis.  Spellbreakers have full counter that is on a 8 second cooldown, block with shield, endure pain. They have the tools to to make those sustain relevent. We get none of that. We are trading off one of our only survival skill, for more damage, that lowers our max health every second. I might as well go back to reaper at that point, because Reaper at least allow me to still deal respectable damage while letting me be more tanky a little while longer before my face hit the dirt.

Pvp Necromancer has been asking for some sort of defense, for years! Mobility, blocking, anything. Harbinger is like a spit in the face for necromancer, because again, Harbinger is taking away our ONLY defensive skill, and giving us nothing but damage in return. Maybe the pve crowd need damage, but the pvp crowd doesn't. Any necromancer who knows the class inside and all, will realize how much of a liability/death sentence shroud is once they get screwed too many times. And their opponent will take notice and take advantage of that.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Want to kill a  Harbringer fast? Bring projectlie hate.

You bring a Harbringer into pvp...for Habringer. The spec is rather disjointed from core necro parts, there are no amazing synergies as far as i saw. You want the shroud burst and pistol rapid fire. But these are both easily reflectable or at least blockable. Heck i saw my pistol #2 skill get blocked by mesmer's feedback.

What you're left with in such a case is a core necro without shroud but massive regen. if you can burst it, you can kill it, since core necro shroud is a powerful anti-burst, that harbringer does not have.

Edited August 19, 2021 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

oops. doble post . pls remove.

Edited August 19, 2021 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[HowlKamui.5120]

6 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Pvp Necromancer has been asking for some sort of defense, for years! Mobility, blocking, anything. Harbinger is like a spit in the face for necromancer, because again, Harbinger is taking away our ONLY defensive skill, and giving us nothing but damage in return. 

I wouldn't call the two mobility skills and the passive regen nothing. I find that harbingers are pretty good duelists/side noders, and can survive encounters that would otherwise be lethal to other necro specs.  Make use of LOS, make use of weakness condi, creating space for yourself is very impactful for harbringers because of the shroud passive health recovery. It's a totally different playstyle. Don't build them like how you would build core necros or reapers. You can't face tank everything and anything which will eventually lead to your death; you LOS and weave in and out of fights which the extra mobility enables you to do. Shroud isnt something you build throughout a fight then use once you have a lot of it. You use it all the time, even at 0% shroud, use one or two skills for mobility or pressure, then get out of it. 

IMO it's exactly what the necro needed in pvp. A mobile playstyle where weaving in and out of fights is the way to go.

Edited August 19, 2021 by mikdepadua.8376

[Warscythes.9307]

7 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Here the thing, It does has sustain, I will give you that. But that won't matter on the grand scheme of things because anyone who is worth their salt will burst you down, sustain or no. Harbinger is too predictable, and once people figure that out, harbinger will be dogged down constantly with no way to defend ourselves. Why do you think classes like guardian is able to sustain so well, despite having extremely low health? It's because they have block, they have vulnerabilities, they have aegis.  Spellbreakers have full counter that is on a 8 second cooldown, block with shield, endure pain. They have the tools to to make those sustain relevent. We get none of that. We are trading off one of our only survival skill, for more damage, that lowers our max health every second. I might as well go back to reaper at that point, because Reaper at least allow me to still deal respectable damage while letting me be more tanky a little while longer before my face hit the dirt.

Pvp Necromancer has been asking for some sort of defense, for years! Mobility, blocking, anything. Harbinger is like a spit in the face for necromancer, because again, Harbinger is taking away our ONLY defensive skill, and giving us nothing but damage in return. Maybe the pve crowd need damage, but the pvp crowd doesn't. Any necromancer who knows the class inside and all, will realize how much of a liability/death sentence shroud is once they get screwed too many times. And their opponent will take notice and take advantage of that.

What is there to figure out about harbinger that people need to get used to? The class is brain dead to play and predictable. The reason why it is super tanky now is because half the players are playing WB and VSO, WB just lack damage in general but VSO actually burst ok if you hit your blades. Anyway the point is that if you are getting bursted down with 30k hp with spectral, wurm and 2 dashes then you are way out of position and deserve to die. 

 

Also yes you can fight back, you are a necro. Blight literally doesn't matter because you don't get high stacks of blight, you just go in your shroud and you leave when you get focused after using your dashes. Stop coming up with these doom situations and ask for buffs when it is by far the best elite spec right now that's performing in PvP. There's nothing to figure out, is a pretty decent spec. The two dashes are great, your sustain is through the roof and your escapes are serviceable. Get focused? Just get out and regen unless they feel like chasing you and give up cap. 

 

Also really, let's not compare to defense of spellbreakers and guards, if you want that sort of defense with necro damage then you got another thing coming. This spec at this current stage is fine. Is this going to be meta? No, core necro and scourge likely performs better. Are they really going to be that squishy once people "figure it out"? No, because people already figured it out. Is just way tankier than people expected.

 

Oh also we did get mobility, there's 2 of them in shroud with 5/10 sec cd before SR cd reduction and the latter is an evade. I don't understand how you managed to type out without mentioning that. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Warscythes.9307