[Icebrood Saga Finale [spoilers]]

Goodbye GW2.

[Why is every NPC Mesmer more powerful than the player?]

@"Veprovina.4876" said:Why can't i spam portals like Kasmeer can? Or summon hordes of illusions that are actually pretty tough and damaging?Or snap my fingers (or point at people?) like Jennah and people just die? Or create Feedback dome around a whole city?Or disguise myself whenever i want for as long as i want?

Not to mention tons of other Mesmer powers that seemingly every NPC Mesmer has except the player?

This is a lore thread so please don't tell me "gameplay reasons". Yeah, i know, obviously.But let's "lore this up", like, is there a legitimate reason they're all so powerful but the Commander (if Mesmer) isn't?Or does the Commander have some tricks up their sleeve that others don't so it evens the power and makes them just as powerful as others?

What could be the in universe reason for it? Or is the Commander just as powerful, but in a different way?What are some displays of Mesmer powers that you recall are way more powerful than Commander's? Cause i couldn't remember them all.

What even are Mesmers? Just mages with a specialization in magic or are they something else?I vaguely recall reading somewhere that everyone in Tyria uses magic, even Warriors, that all skills are basically magic, only used in "that particular context".If so... What is everything? :smiley:

So... Opinions? Facts? Anything?I'm interested in this. :smile:

A while ago I developed a theory about mesmers, the possibility that they are uniquely bound to Lyssa and not only because she is described as the patron goddess of the mesmer profession. I think that their perception of reality may reflect and influence Lyssa's own. So, if Lyssa is asleep, it stands to reason that mesmers' powers will be contained by her unconscious. I propose that, of the various magical genes scattered throughout Tyrian populations (note: another theory), the only one capable of destabilising Lyssa's slumber is the Margonite gene. In the Orrian History Scrolls, Abbadon, once the patron god of the Margonites (those humans in which the Margonite gene was dominant), is said to be the only god who remembers what Lyssa "helped" all of her other fellow deities "forget".

How does this all relate to mesmers? I believe that a mesmer's power levels are inversely proportional to the strength of the Margonite gene present within them. A mesmer with a weaker or nonexistent Margonite gene will appear to be more powerful than a mesmer with a present, stronger gene. This is a reaction of Lyssa's unconscious mind to the trauma contained within the memories of spells cast, the memories that those carrying the Margonite gene can tap into.

I think that the Chosen of Krytan humanity, selected and sacrificed in GW1, were mesmers carrying a unique combination of both the mesmer gene and the Margonite gene. Saul D'Alessio's self-awakening represented a point at which his Margonite heritage allowed him to break free from the hold Lyssa's mind had over him. Anyhow, like the Chosen of GW1, the PC also appears to have the Gift of True sight, albeit dormant. The question, then, is what this means?

Canonically, I believe that the PC is a mesmer (note: that doesn't mean that they can't adopt a different profession) whose abilities have been heavily regulated by Lyssa's unconscious mind. A handful of NPCs who are similarly gifted accompany him or her. Overseeing them is Aurene, herself a projection of Lyssa's mind. Together, they will heal the goddess's mind and help her to safely awaken from her dream.

[The Balance Of Magic And How It Could Kill Us All]

Our understanding of the "balance of magic", as Ogden Stonehealer once put it, remains as abstract now as ever before. His understanding of this arcane subject is derived from his study of the Map of the All, an artifact attributed to the Margonite known as the Apostate. Ogden believes the map reveals that "too much magic [will cause] the world [to spin] out of control", whereas too little magic will result in it "[crumbling] into darkness". This interpretation of the map is pretty straightforward, especially when the PC scrutinizes the tome in which it is contained. The word "imbalanced" is used and the tome's author does warn, "hould [a magical imbalance occur], the world will tilt and all beings will fall off it into the void".

Jormag's recent remarks regarding balance have given us good reason to question the reliability of our interpretation of the Apostate's work. We should've questioned it long beforehand, though. Notable characters have acted in a way that seems to disregard both the Apostate's and Ogden's warnings about disrupting the balance of magic; these characters include Trahearne, who stated that "the dragons are not stars in the sky...one day, we will kill the last of them". Trahearne was a dedicated scholar. There is no way that he didn't know about the Map of the All, no way he didn't read it. He had to know that killing Zaithan, without installing a replacement, would cause a magical imbalance. Balthazar also appeared to disregard any concerns for the balance of magic.

You might think that, because Glint's clutch was at the ready, a scholar like Trahearne reasoned that he'd use one of her offspring to replace Zaithan. That doesn't seem likely, though. Sadizi, an Exalted scholar, notes that the loss of Zaithan and Mordremoth was "unexpected", causing "[a] void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin". In other words, it is unlikely that Trahearne planned to replace Zaithan.

Maybe Trahearne was just mistaken? He's a good guy, after all. Naturally, because Balthazar's a bad guy, he's obviously wrong. But then we get to the Elder races. The forgotten, the race to whom we attribute the plan to replace Kralkatorrik, once fought against Zaithan. So did the mursaat. The list doesn't end there, but the more parties I add to it who acted as though our interpretation of the Map of the All is somehow wrong, the more convinced I become that Jormag's frustration with mortal superstitions is reasonable. We really don't know what we're talking about.

The core of the issue may lie in the nature of the Apostate's warning. Apparently, it's a metaphor. I really do wonder if the entirety of our cognitive dissonance is centered upon an inability to comprehend figures of speech.

So where do we go from here? The Apostate took the time to write his tome; he took the time to warn readers about the consequences of magical imbalances. There must be something of relevance within. Moreover, it doesn't seem honest to dismiss mainstream interpretations of the map, even if they are formed by luddites like Ogden Stonehealer, Sadizi, and yes, the PC. I think that at least some evidence has emerged, within the PC's lifetime, to demonstrate the dangers of a magical imbalance. We've known about the Great Collapse for a long time and, although the true reason behind this disaster has never been revealed, the title "Great Collapse" naturally invokes thoughts about the balance of magic. Here's my take on the calamity: The collapse followed too much mingling between Canthan human and Northern Tyrian human bloodlines. This may not have been solely through interbreeding, but it remains a strong possibility. The other possibility is that the magics practiced by humans of various heritages comingled too freely and this caused the implosion. As I understand it, condensing too many Canthan humans into the same general area (the Canthan District of Divinity's Reach), together with their Northern Tyrian human relatives, created an environment brimming with explosive potential. To mitigate this, following the collapse, the number of Canthans allowed to congregate in a single space was reduced.

Another potential source of evidence from the PC's lifetime is the Thaumanova Disaster. We don't know exactly how the reactor exploded, but I have long wondered whether Scarlet Briar provided the Inquest with a sample of either the Deep Sea Dragon's magic, or even Abaddon's. The latter certainly wouldn't have been too hard for her to obtain, as the Parable of Abaddon indicates.

The final contemporary example is Subject Alpha. This experimental life form, created by the Inquest, successfully combines the magics of the Five Terrestrial Dragons (Jormag, Primordus, Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik, and Zaithan). The Deep Sea Dragon's magic is absent. This doesn't appear to be because the Inquest don't have access to samples of the latter's magic, as a space is being renovated at the Infinite Coil Reactor to accommodate one of the water dragon's minions; rather, it's likely because the Inquest have yet to find a way to successfully mix the Deep Sea Dragon's magic with that of the Five Terrestrial Dragons.

What can we take away from this? I believe that Canthan humanity has the strongest affinity to water magic and that it is safe to assume that they represent it. Thus, water magic is the common variable in each instance.

Why is water magic such a problem? Humans have practiced various forms of water magic for as long as they can remember, and the charr/norn/asura/sylvari PC is an example of a spell-caster from another race that, canonically, can practice water magic as an elementalist, ranger, and engineer. So I don't think water magic is really at fault. As you all know, I believe that the nature of spell-casting traumatizes magic and that, of all the elemental magics, water magic is and water magicians are the most sensitive to this trauma.

This brings us to Jormag's comments about the mortal paradigm that we call the "natural balance of magic". In every example that I can think of, the only elemental magic that doesn't mix well with the others is water magic. Thus, if we were to ask ourselves, "How do we create a magical imbalance?", the answer that is always, absolutely true is, "By incorrectly mixing water magic with the other elemental magics". Humans incorrectly mixed bloodlines strongly affiliated with water magic with those associated with the other elemental magics and...POOF! The Great Collapse. The Inquest incorrectly mixed the traumatized water magic of the Deep Sea Dragon with that of the Five Terrestrial Dragons at the Thaumanova Reactor and...POOF! The reactor blew. What does all of this mean? You can kill quite a few terrestrial Elder Dragons, maybe all of them, and it won't disrupt the balance of magic. But if you kill the Deep Sea Dragon, it likely will tip the All into the void. Why? Think of it this way: Each Elder Dragon ensures that the volatile magics with which they work remain separated from each other and so, in a sense, they prevent all six elemental forms of magic - air, fire, earth, time, water, and aether - from mixing. As water magic is the most unstable form of magic, if the Deep Sea Dragon is killed, no being will be found capable of managing it's volatile magic, leaving the sea dragon's magic to freely mix with all of the other magics and...you know how this goes: POOF!

Now we come to the most important part: Let's say that magic doesn't want to remain separated forever; let's say that magic dreams of unification, a state similar to that presented to us as the City of Arah. What do we learn from the holy city? That once, long ago, all of the elemental magics - each represented by a different deity - successfully and peacefully mingled with each other. This means that, in principle at least, water magic can peacefully coexist with the other elemental magics. The only thing working for or against this union is time.

How would you successfully mix water magic with the other elemental magics? Remember, if you get it wrong, you destroy everything. There is only one example of a union that the PC has witnessed: Malchor's love for Dwayna. In the Tragedy of Malchor, Malchor represents water magic; Dwayna represents air magic. Of all the elemental magics, then, water is drawn to air. And so from the tragedy we learn that the successful mixing of water magic with the other elemental magics is best facilitated by an air magician. And as you all know, I believe that Jormag is the Elder Dragon of Air. Sure, Jormag uses ice, but I believe that this is merely one of a number of different forms of air magic that Jormag employs. It's definitely the safest, given the volatility of water magic. But why would Jormag want to kill Primordus? If water magic is the trigger for explosions surely Primordus isn't a problem for Jormag? I believe that Jormag and Primordus can safely cohabit the same corporeal form. Subject Alpha and Kudu's Monster demonstrate this. I also reckon that Jormag secretly wants to be unified with Primordus and that Braham's decision to become Primordus' "champion" is business as usual. Nothing is presently happening that Jormag hasn't foreseen or doesn't want to come to pass. The Machiavellian machinations of the Elder Dragon of Ice and Persuasion are such that Logan Thackeray's remark is spot on: Mortal spell-casters are just "caught in the middle". When Braham says, "We're going to bring the twin dragons together", he can't know how much what he wants is what Jormag wants. Braham's voice, his mind, and his heart are no longer his own. They became Jormag's during Braham's first expedition against the Elder Dragon and the son of Eir Stegalkin has been living in denial ever since.

[Champions Chapter 3 questions.]

@"Bast.7253" said:I'm just hoping they explain why Primordus and Jormag both want into the Dominion of Winds so bad.

Unpopular opinion: Primordus is already in there, in small pockets. Jormag doesn't want "in". Both dragons are preparing to fight the DSD. Primordus engages in war games with the tengu to make sure that they are ready for the DSD's minions, since the latter are the closest to Primordus' minions in terms of their fighting techniques and behavior. Jormag used a feint attack against the DoW to bring the tengu into the Pact's fold and, quite possibly, to make sure that the terrestrial races have a way in and out of the DoW once the DSD makes landfall.

Jormy and Prim view the DoW as a "safe zone" to which the terrestrial races can retreat when the DSD starts flooding the region. It wouldn't surprise me if the Pact establish themselves there and we got to Cantha through a secret asura gate setup inside...

As is to be expected with the storyline, the Free Peoples of Tyria will think that all of this was their own idea and won't even entertain the notion that the Five Terrestrial Dragons have been playing the long game with the animal, the DSD, in order to draw it out of the water and into a position of vulnerability on land. Then the Twins will spring their trap.

[Jormag's Ruse]

As Jormag has been an Elder Dragon, by it's own words, for a very long time, it's really difficult to think that this wiley, malevolent reptile hasn't anticipated the actions of major players like Braham. How could anyone, especially an emotional, egotistical baffoon like Eir Stegalkin's son possibly outmaneuver a wisened, masterful being like Jormag? It's simply ridiculous to entertain the thought.

In my opinion, Jormag is continuing to mark it's territory in preparation for the Deep Sea Dragon's assault. The "attack" against the Tengu was likely a bit of an upgrade (creating a magical ward against the DSD's magic, maybe?) to their outer wall followed by a mock assault on the inner wall to make sure that the tengus' defenses can withstand the seige that is coming.

Jormag hasn't told Aurene about the DSD, but I'm still wondering if Primordus is just a proxy for Bubbles. One thing that strikes me as incredibly strange is the presence of the Scrying Pool in the centre of the EoTN. In addition to allowing us to experience others' memories, I wonder whether the Deep Sea Dragon can use the pool to eavesdrop on the conversation that Aurene has with Jormag and others; and Jormag, fully aware of this, uses it's "conflict" with Primordus to fool the Deep Sea Dragon into thinking that the terrestrial Elder Dragons are unprepared for what is coming. This may be what Jormag alludes to when it says that it isn't the one pitting the dragons against each other. Moreover, the DSD may be able to read the minds of mortals like the Commander, such that everything that those acting on Jormag's behalf say sounds meaner than it really is. Instead of simply listening to Jormag, we need to consider what Jormag is doing. Freezing major water sources seems like a compelling way of conveying the sincerity with which Jormag tries to preserve it's world.

I wonder what would happen if Jormag spoke the Deep Sea Dragon's name in the presence of Aurene and/or uncorrupted mortals? The writers have always had to try and bring the Deep Sea Dragon into play and it is feasible that the DSD is the "Mother" of the Elder Dragons.

But...if the theory that the DSD can use the Scrying Pool to eavesdrop on everyone gathered around it is true, the idea that it is the EDs' mother makes less sense. Why would Jormag, a scared frigid lizard, invite further wrath upon itself by revealing to it's own mother a plot to kill it's twin, mere years after Kralkatorrik's passing? That just makes no sense. The only way that Jormag could hope to justify itself, were this the case, is with the very arguments it brings to bear on Aurene and Primordus. They're both at fault for making it do the things that it does. Perhaps the DSD will turn up and Jormy will appeal to all of the conversations that it was privvy to, each of which demonstrates that Jormag isn't responsible for the destabilisation of the cycle or the death of Kralky. Again, though, the latter makes no sense. The DSD likely heard Kralk's dying appeal and knows the lay of the land. I believe that it has anti-magics at it's disposal, too, that would allow it to see through many tricks.

I think that, were Jormag to speak the DSD's name now, it would cause Aurene to go batshit crazy. It's best to break the truth to Aurene gradually, slowly shifting the goal posts until the "Elder" dragon is capable of safely managing the burden of that knowledge.

Jormag roaring at Aurene about Primordus might be a snide swipe at the DSD. The animal in this case isn't Primordus, it's the DSD, and Jormag wants Bubbles to know it.

So, as much as I was hoping that Primordus would sacrifice himself in this episode, I'm still of the mind that Jormag is in control of the situation and has a contingency plan in play.

I think that a ruse is afoot.

[Champions Chapter 3 [spoiler discussion]]

@"EdwinLi.1284" said:Well it is almost time and looks like Braham will be meeting with Primordius.

Take your bet to where this may lead and of course we will discuss this matter in depth once the chapter is released.

For me there is may two outcomes....

1) Braham becomes Primordius Champion which may force us to kill him later in the storyline or he becomes Primordius Champion just so he can trick Primordius later and dies doing so.

2) We learn something we never knew before about Primordius and Braham remains loyal to our side instead of becoming Primordius Champion.

or

3) Braham dies because that is the most common method for the story writers to remove a character from the storyline since they can't allow most characters to retire from the storyline alive and healthy.

It's a long shot but...given that Braham's approaching Primordus accompanies the fomer's questioning of the Elder Draconic Cycle, musing that something has to change, I think that Braham is going to commune with the mind of the Elder Dragon Primordus and reach an epiphany. Primordus may surprise Braham, telling the norn that Jormag's protection is the right choice for the norn. This makes the most sense to me from a narrative progression standpoint. The dragon preparing to defend Tyria isn't Primordus, it's Jormag. The latter's decision to chill mortals is probably an attempt to preserve them from the DSD's incoming assault.

So, my money is on the idea that Primordus will appeal to Braham to join Jormag and will allow itself to be sacrificed in order to help ready the mortal, terrestrial races to confront, and ultimately reconcile with, the Deep Sea Dragon's magics.

[Aurene must die </3]

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:Because I've been given no reason to think that the Spirits of the Wild are evil, they've done nothing or said nothing to make me think this is the case.

To each their own, I guess. I do wonder, though, if part of the problem is viewing all of these things through a moral lens.

[Aurene must die </3]

@"The Greyhawk.9107" said:Don't tell me you're on this "the Spirits Are EEEEEEVIL" bit too.

I just like to consider both sides of the narrative. Right now, it's a given that Jormag is evil. Why can't some of the other spirits be "evil", or more realistically, not strictly "good"?

[Aurene must die </3]

@Oxstar.7643 said:Isn't the tone of the story kinda shifting too much?

1. Zhaitan must die.
2. Also Mordremoth
3. No actually, this is bad, they are vital to the balance of the world
4. But let's kill one of the worlds gods.
5. Okay, now a new ED that is our friend replaced Kralky
6. Also we are going to kill another ED

I mean... isn't Jormag also a part of the life force of the world? Is killing him really such a good idea? I don't think Aurene can balance out the loss of ANOTHER elder dragon.As for the spirits replacing Jormag, this sort of life force surgical proceedure sounds very... out of nowhere?

Who knows? The Spirits may actually envy Jormag. Elder Dragons manage a lot of magic and influence large swathes of corporeal reality. Surely other spirits want the same?

[The "Safe" Word]

I am of the opinion that the Deep Sea Dragon represents a kind of failsafe, a way of ensuring that the Elder Draconic Cycle cannot be stopped. The dragon, presumably, lives in some of the deepest waters i Tyria and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that it resides in an ocean trench. This makes it almost impossible to stop, as the submersible technology required to descend to, and withstand the crushing pressures of, water at such depths probably hasn't besn developed yet by terrestrial mortals. It's possible that specialized minions of Zaithan and Jormag could do so, and Jormag may intend to deploy it's ice magic in the depths in an effort to disarm the Deep Sea Dragon. There may be a long-forgotten ritual, possibly linked to the Dragon Bash festival, that can be perfomed somewhere in the depths to achieve this.

It's also possible that a terrestrial spellcaster may be able to speak a "safe" word to disarm the cycle from the safety of the continent. Alternatively, the spell may be a peculiar combination of the Elder Dragon's names. I don't think that just any old spellcaster could achieve these things though. Remember, no pun intended, that most of the knowledge contained in important documents like the Tome of the Five True Gods has been lost to time. You'd need a god, or goddess, with a savant-like memory of history to recall the contents of documents like the Tome.

A goddess like Lyssa...

[Could Mai Trin be Dwayna in disguise?]

[The Hunt For Lyssa's Remains]

If my suspicions prove correct, and Lyssa's corporeal form is interred in a charnel house somewhere, I propose the following sites for her resting place:

1) Under, or somewhere in, Lion's Arch;2) The Harvest Temple.

What role, if any, do you think that Lyssa will play in the upcoming expansion?

[Did Primordus and Jormag eat Lyssa??? ?]

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:

@Stephen.6312 said:

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:How would either manage to do this to Lyssa when the Six left Tyria centuries before the latest Dragon rising?

I genuinely feel that there is something up with the timeline with which we have been presented. This forum hasn't spent enough time investigating the Mouvelian Calendar's idiosyncrasies to be able to articulate details about it that are, presently, largely grasped intuitively.

Knowledgeable members of the lore community will remember that the Risen Priestess of Lyssa states that her "goddess was mere prey for the dragon". The priestess uses the past tense. She also states that Zaithan "devoured" the gods. So how does that work, given the timeline presented to us? It's tempting, downright easy, to dismiss it all as lies. Those who hear the priestess are divided about her truthfulness. The open-minded are prepared to question whether the priestess is telling the truth. Others are unwilling to even entertain the idea that she might be candid. But what if the priestess

is

telling the truth From a storytelling perspective, this is the only option presented to us that allows for the development of any further storylines.

I'm not saying that I believe Teerack's theory is accurate enough to be reliable. But it's a good attempt. No one has ever really pursued angles like this before, certainly no one that I know of.

Why shouldn't we dismiss what the Priestess said as lies? Zhaitan's minions said a lot of kitten, why should we believe this particular one?

Did they consistently lie, though? How many possible lies can you identify, without the explicit aid of an NPC's dialogue? Why don't you list lies identified as such by NPCs? That would allow us to discern just how truthful the Risen really are.

What about the Risen Keeper of the Shrine? Was he lying when he claimed that "the Mists are full of lies"? Why make such a claim?

[Did Primordus and Jormag eat Lyssa??? ?]

@"The Greyhawk.9107" said:How would either manage to do this to Lyssa when the Six left Tyria centuries before the latest Dragon rising?

I genuinely feel that there is something up with the timeline with which we have been presented. This forum hasn't spent enough time investigating the Mouvelian Calendar's idiosyncrasies to be able to articulate details about it that are, presently, largely grasped intuitively.

Knowledgeable members of the lore community will remember that the Risen Priestess of Lyssa states that her "goddess was mere prey for the dragon". The priestess uses the past tense. She also states that Zaithan "devoured" the gods. So how does that work, given the timeline presented to us? It's tempting, downright easy, to dismiss it all as lies. Those who hear the priestess are divided about her truthfulness. The open-minded are prepared to question whether the priestess is telling the truth. Others are unwilling to even entertain the idea that she might be candid. But what if the priestess is telling the truth From a storytelling perspective, this is the only option presented to us that allows for the development of any further storylines.

I'm not saying that I believe Teerack's theory is accurate enough to be reliable. But it's a good attempt. No one has ever really pursued angles like this before, certainly no one that I know of.

[Did Primordus and Jormag eat Lyssa??? ?]

They might've eaten Lyssa. The best thing about your speculation is that you're trying to fit Lyssa in. Whatever question we ask, or theory we propose, can't hurt to do so.

Thumbs up, mate.

[Please explain a plot point to me.]

@"Veprovina.4876" said:In the Draconis Mons part of the LW3 story, when you're collecting druid shields to go into the volcano where Balthazar and Primordus are, Taimi calls you and says something about how she was wrong, doomed everyone, horrible stuff will happen, then you go to the shore so she can show you and an animation plays.

There's some swirling balls, two of them shoot lazers at each other and disappear.

After the animation, the commander is like:

"No, it can't be...""But this means..."

And Taimi is like:

"Yes, exactly, and it's all my fault..."

Like, what the hell is anyone talking about? What will happen? What did Balthazar do? What will happen if he does the thing to Primordus?What even is going on?

Did this really need to be so obtuse? I feel like an idiot when my characters are all agreeing in half sentences and know more than i do.Wasn't that animation supposed to explain to me what is going on and not raise more questions? Especially since my character already knows what that meant.

Can someone explain that part to me?

As others have pointed out, Taimi's machine produced a simulation indicating that, when Jormag and Primordus clash to the death, the fallout would cause an explosion. This seems to be the first time that Taimi truly becomes aware that the death of an Elder Dragon can cause an explosion, so too the PC. Prior to this, the only other way that we could infer this is from the Thaumanova Reactor disaster and, given the PC's remarks to Taimi during Season 3, it seems that any lessons that the PC might have learned from Thaumanova, weren't. Like Taimi, he/she seems to realise the dangers of the wrong dragon(s) fighting and or dying from Taimi's machine.

What are we to make of Taimi's simulation? Well, I think that it was slightly incorrect. Yes, an Elder Dragon's death can cause an explosion. But not Primordus's or Jormag's. They can safely duke it out and, whatever should happen to Tyria as a result, it won't be so disastrous as to threaten the perpetuality of terrestrial life. (Balthazar turned the two dragons' energies against each other and it didn't destroy Thyria. Each dragon simply withdrew, indicating that they balance each other out.) Thus, the machine needed to be recalibrated, pitting any one of the Terrestrial Elder Dragons (TED) against the Deep Sea Dragon (DSD). Should a TED face the DSD, Taimi's fears might truly be realized: If the DSD dies, or the DSD is pitted against the wrong TED, Thyria will explode.

This is all just my opinion, of course. As I see it, Balthazar understood that killing the TEDs wouldn't prove fatal to terrestrial life. His strategy against the DSD would probably have involved trying to put it back to sleep, or even replacing it with Aurene; a plan that Jormag may now be adopting in Balthazar's stead.

:)

[Dragon Came To Me In A Dream And He Is Not The Enemy...]

Just a thought: Everything that takes place after the Commander gets shot with a flaming arrow (representing Primordus) is part of an elaborate dream sequence through which Jormag subtlely converts the Commander to their side. When the Commander awakens, Aurene even acknowledges that the Commander has been having "fitful dreams".

There's a bigger possible message here, though. Aurene talks about Jormag's "vague warnings" that aren't specific enough to reveal anything. Moreover, the episodes, especially during the DRMs, involve language and events that keep reminding me of water. At Rata Sum, destroyers come out of the water. NPCs fight a destroyer with an especially hard shell and must find a way to penetrate it's armour. They also describe destroyers as "flooding in". There are other instances too, but I'm on my phone and this is a mission so I'll skip an exhaustive list of examples.

So, why is Jormag doing this? Well, it's fair to say that Primordus is acting as a proxy for...you guessed it: the Deep Sea Dragon. But why doesn't Jormag just plainly tell Aurene and the Commander about the DSD, or say it's name?

Here's the idea: For some reason, discussing these things plainly is too dangerous for the ears of mortals, even Aurene, to hear. To reveal the DSD's malevolence, Jormag must be subtle so as to prevent further destabilising the Elder Draconic Cycle.

[Primordus' Rampage]

@"The Greyhawk.9107" said:My question is a simple one, considering that Primodus had been awake for just over 200 years before being temporarily forced into a dormant state, why is his re-awakening a much larger threat to Tyria than he was for the last 200 years awake? Does it have to do with the deaths of now three Elder Dragons, the Ascension of Aurene, is Jormag pulling even more bull kitten on us somehow, or something completely unknown the cause?

Good question. My impressions are much like your own. I struggle to see Primordus as much more of a threat now than he was before.

The way the PC is conversing with others, no one seems to have much of a clue about how everything works...which makes it hard to understand why anyone would take the threat of Primordus any more seriously now than they did before.

One closing thought, though, is that Prim's forces seem to show more interest in surface civilizations than before. Maybe the little disruption that they're causing is making members of the Five Playable Races nervous because of the reports of Prim's destruction brought to them by the remaining dwarves. Most of the more powerful destroyers that we fight are known for their successes against the dwarves. If they can do that to a race that transformed itself into a "living weapon", I guess they can do a lot more to other races that have not.

[Any new info / speculations about the missing firstborns?]

@Fenella.2634 said:It's been a while since this topic was being discussed, but replaying LS2 reminded me that we still don't know all the sylvari firstborns. At launch, we knew 9 out of 12, later Wynne's fate got revealed, but two are still completely unknown.

In LS2, Caithe's memories are especially interesting as they give us a bit of a timeline. Apparently, the two missing firstborns disappeared even before the secondborn awakened. Riannoc was already dead by the time of Caithe's first memory, so it's not certain if they disappeared before that happened or after. Also, this happened before the Nightmare Court was founded. At this time, the death of a single sylvari was a huge deal for them all. So I imagine if at a time like this two more firstborn would have died / had something traumatic happen to them, it's likely we would have learnt about this, since it should have left a strong impression on sylvari society, especially the other firstborns.In contrast, when Wynne did die, the sylvari had already experienced trauma and deaths as a society numerous times. This was some time after the asura captured larger groups.

So, because they disappeared at such an interesting time in sylvari history, I personally suspect they might be still alive and on some kind of mission. Maybe exploration or diplomatics concerning other continents, so they basically had no chance to visit home in the meantime? Like, I don't know, maybe Cantha or even that continent in the west that seems to have trading routes connecting it to Central Tyria? However, sending them that far away when their siblings even barely left the grove... I'm not convinced.

... Or maybe they died in some really stupid accident that everyone refuses to ever mention.

Has anyone heard anything about them in the past ~8 years? I mean, they must have some kind of story, otherwise the devs could just have not defined the number of firstborns in the first place.

They're probably among the characters that Anet's storytelling team cast aside. The optimist in me, though, would suggest that the missing firstborn are either in Cantha or exploring the Mists.

[Future hostile entity?]

@"Hypnowulf.7403" said:Here's a better question: Why do we need another hostile entity when we already have one already that's pulling the strings?

We witnessed it in LWS4. Unless we just believe everything we're told at face value as an objective truth—and no one should do that—it's kind of obvious from the story we experience ourselves that the torment isn't just "corrupted magic." It's an entity in and of itself. It's a brain parasite. For all we know, Mordremoth and Zhaitan were tormented. Kralkatorrik was the first time we saw what was driving dragons to be like this.

What if Primordus is tormented? What if the deep sea dragon is tormented? What if we find a way to force the torment out of them, so that they ally with us? This could force the torment to find another way to enact its goal—entropy. The torment seems to seek the destruction of all things for the release of entropy, which might be its food source. All that it does could be towards this end, it's a parasite that destroys Universes in order to feed upon the release of entropic energies. An abstract predator.

What is the torment, then? I think it could be the manifest will of the realm of torment. With all that's happened there, I wouldn't be at all surprised if a malevolent gestalt will had arisen. And it just wants to make suffering and death happen so that it can feed on the release of energies. What could happen following the freeing of dragons from torment is the torment playing its hand.

Essentially, to defend its realm, the torment calls to the fore every tormented entity out there. This could include the Inquest, it could include the human Gods, it could include the Separatists. I mean, thanks to Jormag, the Renegades have been dealt with. The point is is that there could be an underlying reason for everything that's been occuring in Tyria, that reason could be torment.

So the End of Dragons isn't about the death of dragons but rather their freedom from the grip of torment and their allegiance to our cause. When the torment plays its hand, it could be very interesting to find out just how many it's turned and tainted. It could make it a very difficult foe to fight since, in actuality, it wouldn't be the fault of those afflicted with torment—they're just puppets. That'd be an angle for the drama of dealing with the torment and why yet more flat-out murder isn't the answer. It might mean that we require more clever approaches, moving forward.

Just a thought.

I think that you're on the right track with this approach. I'm not sure that I would go so far as to call "torment" an evil entity, though. I agree that it is an entity, or rather entities. But evil? I'm undecided about whether it's malevolent (magic) by nature, or whether it has become hostile as a result of traumatization. It'll be interesting to see how Anet try to explain the nature of torment, as the concept of magic experiencing trauma has been conspicuously ignored by tbe writing team.

Maybe Canthan humanity is in a better position to help the lesser races of the Northern Tyrian Continent understand torment? Yet another reason why we must travel to Cantha.

[48 000 Burn Damage In 3 Seconds]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

In reality, no power build can maintain 15k dps over 3 seconds. Im not sure any can even reach 30k burst in 2 seconds.

Oh you can on some power builds. But those kinds of skill cycles are complex and difficult to land. In no way are nuclear power bursts nearly as easy to land successfully as nuclear condi bursts and that really defines the problem behind condi builds. It's not that condi builds are stronger than power, it's that they're just too easy to use.

Good point. Condi DPS doesn't require the same mechanical work rate as power DPS.

[Laranthir? (spoilers)]

@Fenella.2634 said:I'm quite surprised noone has discussed Laranthir yet. Was he still Almorra's second-in-command by the time of Whisper in the Dark? If so, he should be the next leader of the Vigil.In the story I get the impression that Jhavi could well take this place, but maybe she is just supposed to take over the keep.

Is Laranthir still part of the story, or did he resign sometime ago offscreen? If he's still around, he should return to the limelight very soon.

To hazard guesses, he's either incarcerated or they've killed him off-screen. Laranthir just wouldn't not be back with the Vigil after Almorra's passing.

[Concerns about Elementalist]

I think that ele players have the greatest potential to achieve the highest skill level in the game. The class requires a good understanding of build synergy and strong mechanical proficiency. Imagine if Anet gave ele players too much breathing room, relaxing the demanding workload of playing the class, eles would become godmode in a way that other classes can't.

[Consume Plasma]

@"Quadox.7834" said:ANET: posted in pvp general instead, this one can be removed / merged I guess.

Consume plasma has been the strongest stolen skill since 2012.

Lets look at the stolen skills:

• Mace crack- melee, removed with stunbreak

• Essence sap - needs target, can be dodged (though 2nd strongest stolen skill)

• Whirling axe - melee, long channel that you can get damaged in.

• Throw gunk - small radius, weak effect.

• Healing seed - stationary, has cooldown.

• Blinding tuft - short duration, s/d thief doesn't benefit much from stealth, harder to get because you need to steal on a thief, only benefits the opener/escape not mid combat.

• Ice shard - melee, can be cleansed

• Skull fear - long channel, can be dodged.

Stolen skills are either attacks that need to hit a target (and either melee or slow cast), or defense with limited useability and cooldown like healing seed. This means that the thief must take risks and be think about it in order to get value out of the 2nd stolen still from improv, by going in melee range or doing a slow channel for instance. With plasma the thief just steals, jumps behind LoS, and uses it twice. Because it doesn't need to hit a target, doesn't need LoS, doesn't need melee, doesn't need to be spread out because it stacks so well. It scales too much with improv + sleight of hand + swindler's equilibrium.

Doesn't matter the situation, thieves will steal on the mesmer to get the boons, any opportunity cost is lost because it is always worth it. Playing a squishier build (e.g. power chrono) feels like playing the floor is lava vs top thief (try facing sind, pain, etc). It feels a bit like playing the "gas station" class.

Consume plasma has recently garnered attention due to boonbeast, and surprise it is broken there as well. Just Imagine if there was a utility that gave all boons in the game, on a <20 second cooldown.

Even thematically, why does mesmer stolen skill give boons while guardian's gives daze and engi's gives etheral field? That seems backwards.

Now I am aware some will take this an april fools joke because it contains the words "thief", "broken", and "nerf". This thread is about one skill, consume plasma, not about the entire class.

(last thread got closed)

Maybe the dichotomy between plasma orb granting boons and every other stolen skill merely offering the thief an out-of-the-ordinary ability reflects Anet's initial desire to make thieves hard-counter mesmers?

[Immobilize]

@Tashigi.3159 said:Can we please just remove this from the game? Or at least address how unbalanced it is when used on classes that rely on dodge to remove the kitten condi or the fact that it can be re-applied almost immediately after removing? Or put it higher on priority for condi cleanse.Just do something about it 'cause unless you're playing a specific build/class to counter it, there is 0 fun had fighting against people who build around immobilize.

I think that it would be better to simply tweak immobilisation. Every profession has something that not only defines it, but also draws exasperated calls for nerfs from disaffected players. Immobilisation is one of the primary ways that a ranger controls the battlefield and defines itself. When you go after a class-defining thing, you need to tread carefully.