[since we got no new content this year, for a week can we agree to fight differently?]

I'd be happy with no downstate. 

[Why is cele harb]

If you can't beat 'em, I say join' em. Go look up other obnoxious builds you can play. A failure of balance is a good opportunity to be carried by a build. 

[Please revamp Freezing Gust (Focus 4 Water)]

Focus skills in water are actually terrible. Focus 5 doesn't hit most of the time. A player with swiftness easily walks away from it, or the target is out of range before it even lands. 

Focus 4, don't waste the 1 second or so to press that button and cast it, unless you're just burning time waiting to do something else. 

[Stealth counter]

9 hours ago, Invictorum.7643 said:

If a thief is dumping initiative on the opening burst, they lack any initiative to chase. And unless the thief dumps all initiative to get a full stealth off a Shadowshot? You WILL see them coming.

 

Player or golem?

Not sure why we we are mentioning getting stealth with Shadowshot, I presume Black Powder? Referring to my earlier post with the two combo examples from a thief's arsenal, the second combo demonstrates a chase! Heartseeker and Shadow Shot both gap closers, the latter being almost instacast.

Even assuming all initiative is used, we still have Infiltrator's Signet and Steal, both being skills with no activation time or after cast, and both 1200 range gap closers (or in a pinch, a disengage, if you target ambients/enemy NPCs or other enemy players). 

That's plenty of chase in a zero initiative thief. 

Damage figures are from combat log, against a player. 

7 hours ago, Invictorum.7643 said:

You havent fought good ones then. Just like old guard, willbender can kill someone just as fast as thief.

 

The singular rectangle wall that they can just walk around? Or use a non-projectile to get around? The problem with Cele Harb is purely a stat thing. Too many passive stat boosts on top of bloated boon design currently, makes cele harb have effectively as many stats in condi/power as dedicated stat sets, while maintaining all the other stuff.

In the case of guardians, then unfortunately/fortunately, I have run into at least 4 times the number of rapid kill thieves. 

The difference, which I'm starting to get to, lies in skill activation times (and after cast times) and even in animations. It is more feasible to get away or survive an initial burst if it's slower to chain and if it's more visible. I might understand the old guard you're referring to, but it's helluva slow compared to a thief. 

I've sometimes quietly wished Sniper's Cover was a circle but do we realise how laughably obnoxious that would be? A harb can attempt to walk around the wall. But! 

The DE can choose to teleport forwards or backwards through it, a distance of 600 units. The difference is mobility. Assuming not revealed, doubles up into a stealth combo. The Sniper's Cover + Death's Advance combo is even more powerful when you run Shadow Arts because it costs you almost zero initiative to endlessly reposition. 

Meanwhile, you build stacks of Spider Venom that lets you heal when you eventually attack again. DE is so kitten obnoxious the only reason why I've lost more fights than I should, is because I'm one of the worst players you'll ever meet. 

On the topic of bloated skills and Cele, fully agree. Power creep in GW2 has reached laughable levels and is out of control. Things have reached a new level of stupid with harb, willbender, catalyst, power virt, even power vindi. And there's some quiet performers murdering people with their untamed. They just don't shout it from the rooftops. 

[Stealth counter]

1 hour ago, senftube.6081 said:

u can wreck also peoples with pew pew rangers. U can also wreck peoples with swishh swooshh willbender. U can wreck them with any class because roughly every class has such instagib builds. 🥸 And with the ranger as example u can even 1 shot thiefs by pressing 1-2 buttons. xD even when they are in stealth when they used their daggerstorm or block. With Grenade spamm u can also 1 shot them pretty easy. But yeah here it is mostly okay....hypocrisy at its peak.

Ah and did you ever fought a thief with cele harbinger? xD

The only one I give credit for is the Sic 'em railgun rangers, who are also some of the worst killjoys in the WvW. I believe you responded to my post pretty fast because I literally edited it within minutes to talk about ranger. 

Don't be ridiculous about Willbender. I've never been erased by one as quick as with a thief, and I've made light work of many of them using a deadeye. 

Cele harb, also, deadeye. Put up rifle Kneel 4 wall, and just dance around them. Alternatively, counter the cele kitten with more cele kitten of your own, using cele p/p sneak attack daredevil. 

What's the problem again? 

[Stealth counter]

4 hours ago, capuchinseven.8395 said:

The problem with comments like this, and I understand where you're coming from, is that those sorts of builds (of which I can run) sacrifice a lot to do what you're stating (as well as pick my moments), I can do similar things on other classes and give up a lot less to do it.

 

For the sake of discussion, which other classes, and which other builds? Because I want to learn to play those builds if they can just about instagib with lesser tradeoff than on thief.

The one I immediately think of is Sic em LB Soulbeast. Maybe glass shatter Chrono. With the latter I can even see the set up coming and hightail it before the entire combo completes.

The discussion is actually more complex because in encounters like this, it's also the ability to escape and resustain that makes a difference. With a thief's mobility, there is little chance to escape and/or resustain. 

In that particular example, the thief can execute the entire combo in under 2 seconds with 3 buttons, while still having at least 7 initiative left (usually 10, since thief usually runs trickery). That's at least enough for a follow up of one heartseeker and one shadow shot with natural initiative regen. Assuming thief didn't also bust out Assassin's Signet for more frontloaded damage, we still have open slots for three utilities and an elite skill from which we can pick any number of quality skills like Shadow Step, Blinding Powder, Infiltrator's Signet & Signet of Agility, Scorpion Wire and then Dagger Storm.

There's plenty there to gap-close, disengage and clear condis, especially for what usually is a 10 second fight (or much less).

Also, those numbers I wrote in the earlier post are on a target with 2450 armor, hardly full-glass as the other poster suggested.

I know this is straying away from the main topic of the thread, which is about stealth. But when you can also do all these things, WITH the added ability of stealth, we have a monster roamer in WvW that annihilates almost anyone else in a 1v1. I'm not asking for blanket nerfs. Balance is not my job. I also like to play thief. Just not those kinds of instagib variants.

[Stealth counter]

2 hours ago, Invictorum.7643 said:

So, not a one shot.

 

If someone's trying to clean up after a backstab, thats when the target can react to avoid further damage unless major cooldowns are used. The only time I've seen this not happen is when a thief pops EVERYTHING to secure a quick kill, and is left completely open to anyone else nearby. Again, dealing with thieves is less a mechanical thing (especially in the current bloated meta), and more just understanding what both your class, and theirs, can do.

Steal + CnD + Backstab. Add Mug trait, Sigil of Air. That's 17 THOUSAND damage. And it's very fast. Since we can't call that one-shot, maybe it's wombo-combo?

Or Pistol 5 + heartseeker through to hit, lead to backstab, then shadow shot + heartseeker? Over 24 THOUSAND damage.

All this can happen outta nowhere. I don't care how fast people think they are. Those who have met a good thief in WvW know this. Skills generally have an activation time. People usually need a reaction time. It's possible to avoid instant down, but generally, you're too weak to fight back after the first hit or two, and the fight is over in favor of the thief.

Other factors can add to the matchup. Thief with good latency plus yourself with ping in the 200 ish (which isn't uncommon), and invariably, people get destroyed.

I appreciate these things don't happen commonly. But I'm trying to explain that, I see the frustration when people get their kitten whooped like that.

[Stealth counter]

10 hours ago, Invictorum.7643 said:

There is a counter to thief stealthing. The fields that are used to get into stealth are fairly obviously seen during combat. Either throw aoe's on it, or stand in it.

If they hit you while heartseekering to get stealth, instant reveal.

the counter to a thief stealthing is less mechanical and more tactical. To outplay, you must out-think. And its not like we live in the days of insta-gib backstabs from stealth anymore, so you do have the chance to outplay.

Hitting a foe through a pistol 5 + heartseeeker combo does not break stealth. 

Last I checked, backstab was still pulling 10K hits, enough to one-shot a player if they have already taken some damage. If not, it leaves you open for couple of other quick attacks like heartseeker or shadow shot. 

[Stealth counter]

As with anything, there's always outliers. 

Like diamond rank thieves that destroy in 2 seconds with almost no counterplay.

[Celestial IS balanced.]

1 hour ago, bluberblasen.9684 said:

Catalysts are dead after the last patch.

So it's only harbinger, willbender and renegades 😉

Although, if Catalysts are dead, so would all other ele specs. 

Anet has a pretty blunt nerf hammer. 

[Celestial IS balanced.]

Celestial is about as balanced as the harbingers, catalysts and renegades that abuse it. 

[Mistform]

Proposal: do away with downstate in WvW.

NOW!

Sincerely, 

Elementalist player

[[WvW] - Scrapper and Berserker Damage Output Complaint.]

6 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

I am ok with that if that means the same group can impact a larger boon ball that would have just killed the comp group all the more. With more CC pressure available it might make people ask, do I run CC to shutdown a target versus apply more boons to the group. A larger side will still have more options in either case but CC and damage gives more counter play versus straight out boonball play. So, I do say, re-up damage on hard CC.

I don't think that would be helpful in in example. In most cases, boon blobs themselves have a comped group backbone (like a guild for example, or at least a bunch of friends who communicate on what to run). 

If we re implement damage on CC skills, the boon ball will demolish the small comped group. It's also just how the AoE cap works. 

[[WvW] - Scrapper and Berserker Damage Output Complaint.]

6 hours ago, TexZero.7910 said:

The 1-5 it is currently is due to kneejerk overswinging by the "balance" team.

I do think power creep (and a blatant attempt to sell more new specs and expansions) was the reason driving the massive "balance" patch that dropped damage from CC skills, and shaved both healing and damage from a whole host of other skills. 

That patch just gave the team room to add more weapons and skills without further trivialising old content. That includes instances of trivialising encounters with players running most older specs in WvW. 

Nevertheless, the power creep is still so blatant that, for months now, many of these new specs have been mentioned repeatedly when discussing the most obnoxiously overpowered of builds in GW2. 

[Please explain logic in this]

16 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

...for all we know players would run glassier to take advantage of burst, that according to you is the only thing that would benefit from a removal of downstate. 

This is possible. Like a bunch of Staff daredevils. 

[Please explain logic in this]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

If the five in a 2v5 wins, the first comment from the two will probably be "lol they got carried by downstate, we want a real fight!"

If the two in a 2v5 wins, the first comment from the two will probably be "lol that was too easy, such noobs, we want a real fight!"

Personally I've stomped 1 downed guy in the middle of a 20 man fight guild group. Because I bring the tools to do it.

I don't assume people are noobs.

Also, context is important when talking about stomps. 

[Please explain logic in this]

Disabling down state in WvW would be great. In some cases, down state is an absolute clutch that encourages (or at the very least negates the repercussions) being bad, or performing excessively risky gameplay for relatively poor reward. 

Yes, it's frustrating to say, 2v5 some group, get one down and it's impossible to kill the down before they get ressed. And if you try and stand still to stomp (without some clutch invul of your own), enemy group seriously messes you up. 

If on the other hand, you are downed, your one pal cannot possibly res you against the pressure of 5 others and the fight is lost. 

[[WvW] - Scrapper and Berserker Damage Output Complaint.]

18 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Bring back damage on hard CCs please.

Comped groups will have a field day. Imagine running into a comped group of 6-7 peeps, capable of chain CCing you for 7-10 seconds straight, never mind that they blow you up after the second CC even in "tank" gear, because they reimplement hard CC damage. 

[Tankyness]

Tankiness isn't just about toughness and vit. It's a combination of things. Ability to mitigate and avoid damage is better than absorbing like a sponge. They did try to design GW2 in a manner that there are no true tanks but of course some builds survive better than others.

We should probably call it longevity because that takes into consideration your sustain (top up heals for example). 

Evades (hence also dodging and vigor boon) , blocking, invul, healing and even good positioning (hence movement skills included), blind (condition), projectile blocks and reflects, protection, contributes to longevity much more than outright toughness.

 

Then you should consider things like stab and resistance boons, and traits (and equipment) that either remove or reduce duration of movement impairing condis because those things either allow you to reposition to avoid damage, and/or continue using your skills. If you are immob and hard CC without stunbreak, you die pretty fast. 

It's a pretty complex thing. 

[Bring Ele' Down To Par For Once.]

1 hour ago, RazieL.5684 said:

I'm Invulnerable sorry Block but Invulnerable I Evade have Invulnerable no Stealth idea Block what Invulnerable you're Block talking Invulnerable about Invulnerable I Invulnerable can't Block really 1200 range STUNBREAK port hear Block you Invulnerable over Auto stealth on low health all Invulnerable those Block Invulnerable Unblockable shatters noises...

I think you missed a couple more evades in there. 

[So ranger still garbage in WvW?]

Is it, really? 

[So deadeye... how we feeling on this?]

+300% stolen skill damage is stupid. Can't believe it was even allowed to happen. 

[Fresh Air Core elementalist/catalyst roaming/duels]

Read your original post and it just sounded a lot like, "I like my sc/X fresh air ele, so go look the other way please, Anet, and nerf all the other guys." 

Anyway. I seem to see less core fresh air ele than the weaver + catalyst varieties combined. But everytime I see a fresh air ele of any kind, they are invariably very strong and considered a sizeable threat. 

[Who Was Asking For Nerf For Invul Walls!?]

Probably the same person who said golems shouldn't be allowed to contest camps. Neither are show-stopper techniques. 

And agree with you, EWPs are sometimes borked. They get used and called out and peeps in other maps can't even see it. 

[WvW Players - Overall what is the most annoying spec for you to face in whatever scenario?]

Very few peeps seem to talk about Vindicators. But I've run into a couple that are just tiresome to fight. They don't die, and they can beat you if you just space out a bit, which you inevitably will after trying to down an unkillable bunny for 10 minutes.