Reflect and PVP

Like the title says. Is it worth investing in it? How likely is it that we are going to face a profession that is heavily focused on projectiles/ranged dps?

The first I think of is Dead Eye. Used properly it is a dead sentence. But it becomes less and less popular as you move up the ladder.

Then, I think of druids (although good ones are less pewpew and more cheese bunker or shoutbow)

DH. Since PoF, I do not see many. Yet, there still are few left here and there…

Perhaps wvw is different, but pvp? I always loved reflecting. I was thinking of reflect on dodge trait, plus traited mirror heal and/or even traited focus (just to be different from the mass :P ) But is it worth?

Reflect can be worth it and at least in the lower tiers there's still pistol thieves and pistol engis on top of everything else that uses range. And the meta mirage uses staff on swap.

I LOVE it (had to emphasise that - it's so fun). :)

Using high mirage cloak access for Evasive Mirror, and then traited Mirror heal, Blink and Arcane Thievery... it's just so much fun to kitten all over any kind of projectile builds - or in general there are a hell of a lot of projectile attacks out there.

But to keep things level headed (ie I don't want to incur a nerf), I think it's fine because opponents using projectiles have to learn to stow/cancel rather than no brain pew pew (eg rapid fire or unload...).

@Curunen.8729 said:I LOVE it (had to emphasise that - it's so fun). :)

Using high mirage cloak access for Evasive Mirror, and then traited Mirror heal, Blink and Arcane Thievery... it's just so much fun to kitten all over any kind of projectile builds - or in general there are a hell of a lot of projectile attacks out there.

But to keep things level headed (ie I don't want to incur a nerf), I think it's fine because opponents using projectiles have to learn to stow/cancel rather than no brain pew pew (eg rapid fire or unload...).

I have seen your build on another post. I am OK with chaos for the traited mirror, which I always enjoied. But I have few questions:

• How is AT at the moment? I'm running with disenchanter and I find it more reliable than null field and AT. But AT would take advantage of the Manipulation trait... how is it working for you?
• for a reflecting build, Evasive Mirror should be baseline. However, I am thorn between using dueling or illusions tree. They both have pros and cons but the decision should also consider that in order for dueling tree to work at best, you need crit chance and thus the amulet is very important. This brings me to he third point*Amulet. If I go dueling and want hybrid, the new Magi is the way to go. But it is on the squishy side, if you know what I mean. If I go illusions, the safer carrion gives you just all you need.

Final note. If you run a build highly focused on reflecting, why using desperate decoy and torch? I m sure you are fully aware of what you do on a battlefield, but reflecting and stealthing don't go well together... ?

It's going to be a short reply due to typing on phone - I'll try and add more details tomorrow evening when I've got time to access my pc.

AT works for me for two reasons:

• build is heavily based around boons
• already have sufficient regular cleanse through Elusive Mind, Jaunt, cleansing sigils and torch.

It's not totally reliable sure, but stealing a nice bunch of boons of certain classes to further buff yourself and leave them vulnerable is great. It works because high evade uptime safeguards the boons making you hard to hit and hard to strip/corrupt. The synergy is functional. I have a lot of evade access through sigil/rune/skills/boons.

Illusions is unnecessary because majority of Condi application is through weapon attacks - eg axe combos and staff. F1 and F2 do more than enough damage in hybrid untraited.Duelling provides perma fury, vigour, SI (for sustained pressure when you don't want to shatter), EM and by far the most useful thing - DE. DE is seriously amazing with axe in melee. I cannot overemphasis how it changes axe gameplay. Sure if you were playing pure Condi with say Scepter, then Illusions would be better. But as I play hybrid, I don't need the extra confusion/torment because F1 crits fairly hard and weapon skills/ambushes keep up Condi application. With DE getting max illusion melee F1 or F2 following an axe damage combo is trivial, loading yourself up with some boons in the process. The general gameplay is to pressure in staff, melee bomb in axe/torch with suitable ambush/shatter combos, and don't shatter unless it's the right opportunity.

Now this might sound extremely weird but I promise you try it before judging - I've been testing cele amulet with this build and it is really solid. It's quite easy to maintain perma vigour and at least 5-10 stacks of might. In any case the damage is not from one source ie shatters or phantasms or clones or whatever - it's a combination of everything. It plays more like a bruiser using evades to "tank". In wvw and pve I mix in more viper. Test it out first and see - I was surprised to see that cele wasn't trash - rather it's a perfect fit. If they boost the stats a bit to say 490 it would be excellent, but even as it is around 460 this build functions well with it (healing power helps with perma regen for example).

Desperate Decoy is because both other duelling adept traits are kitten and as much as I have disliked this trait in the past funnily enough I find it useful to have that extra stealth/stunbreak without wasting a utility slot - mirage of all classes doesn't really care if something like that interrupts an action as you likely will have endurance to cover cast anything you want as a follow up if it interrupts you.

Torch is because the burn is very useful and aoe (all weapons - axe, torch and staff are aoe which allows easier pressure in groups) and being the only active source of stealth you can fairly easily play around the reflects to not screw yourself with reveal. Having prestige and axe 3 allows for more target drops to relieve pressure - axe/torch is surprisingly elusive and at the same time can very much stick in someone's face to unload damage.

My build is very similar, so I know what you are talking about. Actually, I would like few duels and see which one is stronger.

For now, I am sticking with Wizard amulet and dueling tree. However, I am always very tempted to switch to illusions and carrion amulet.

I still prefer Disenchanted VS AT. The boons it strips are definitely more. And it helps your mates, too.For the signet, I prefer Midnight over Inspiration and the offhand weapon, I go with focus and I am very happy about that. I feel almost proud :)

What I do not understand is axe/DE concept. I very seldom find the time/chance to stick to a target in melee range and auto attack for axe conditions to really work. It's a nice addition but not something to rely on. I over abuse 2 and 3 but axe 1 is good in pve, not pvp.

Are you NA or EU?

@trooper.2650 said:My build is very similar, so I know what you are talking about. Actually, I would like few duels and see which one is stronger.

For now, I am sticking with Wizard amulet and dueling tree. However, I am always very tempted to switch to illusions and carrion amulet.

I still prefer Disenchanted VS AT. The boons it strips are definitely more. And it helps your mates, too.For the signet, I prefer Midnight over Inspiration and the offhand weapon, I go with focus and I am very happy about that. I feel almost proud :)

What I do not understand is axe/DE concept. I very seldom find the time/chance to stick to a target in melee range and auto attack for axe conditions to really work. It's a nice addition but not something to rely on. I over abuse 2 and 3 but axe 1 is good in pve, not pvp.

Are you NA or EU?

I'm EU - sure will be interesting to see how it works. :)

Respect for using Focus tbh.

Regarding DE - it's more for easy 3 illusions F1 or F2 in melee, as I often dodge during axe 2 and F1 after 3 clone axe 3. Sure the auto attack is not so useful because you don't get much chance to use it, but even a couple of hits from clones is more than nothing - it all adds up.

Hi Curunen,

Have no managed to find you online yet. Guess we have different play time or that we do not play that much... :)Anyway, I just wanted to share my past 2 weeks experience with this reflecting thing. Talking to you directly, but anyone can feel free to join the discussion.

Focusing heavily on reflects is defenitely a strong option, at least in pvp. It is literally a nightmare for ranged thieves, Rangers, DH, etc. Even for mesmers sitting in chaos storm :-D I figure they can't wait to switch from Staff when facing such build.I felt the build is strong also because between Elusive mind, Mirage cloak, the many reflects and stability on shatter (I also went for Mirror of Anguish) it is nearly impossible to nail us down.

However, the damage is not as good as it could be. I got kicked few times by standard mirage build duel/illusion/carrion (could be a skill reaon, though) but I feel I was lacking the conditions on shatter.

This week, I have been running same setup but I dropped chaos in favour of illusions. Which made me question whether mirror healing was really worth without its trait.It went good, but a small heal every 15sec is not worth keeping just for 2 sec reflect. Also, I have lost the stabo on shatter and Anguish, making me much more vulnerable to cc. It still kicks ass because you gain more damage through illusions/condis on shatter but needs more care.

Now, I come to my point. I would like to keep using chaos for the above mentioned benefits, but I have to decide wheter to go dueling (like you have been doing) or going illusions. In both options, I believe hybrid should be the way. Maybe the damange should not be evenly split 50% between condi and power like I am doing now with wizard amulet. I think that if I go dueling, it should be 60% power and 40 condi (possibly Swashbuckler Amulet?) and if I go Illusions it should be the other way round (possibly Carrion?)

Last. Call me crazy, but I fell in love with axe to a point where I run double axe (traited, obviously) + torch and focus :-D Please, give it a go. I know staff is your favourite weapon, still... give it a try.

So, what you say? Let me know!

Will message you back in more detail either later tonight or tomorrow evening.

I've been extremely busy with work and barely had time to play in last few weeks. Will definitely have time tomorrow evening (GMT). :)

Edit: so can't play tonight but just wanted to update - I've stopped using arcane thievery and instead switched to Illusionary Ambush.

Boom removal is not critical when playing hybrid because resistance isn't a hard counter, and I had to rethink after facing a couple of d/p daredevils in wvw - AT is just not good enough either offensively or defensively.

But IA is absolutely amazing - the detarget does buy a few seconds, the clone ambush can be useful and it's also a clutch evade/panic button plus teleport to stay on target.

Bear in mind I've only tested this a handful of times recently so definitely need more playtime to reinforce the build.

Also toying with swapping some viper to grieving for more burst - given I have perma fury and it helps with F1, Jaunt and also things like axe 3 (hits damn hard tbh). Generally I play quite bursty and the extra Condi duration from a few pieces of viper isn't really gamechanging compared with bigger crits from grieving. But that's a work in progress.

Haven't touched much pvp recently but in testing I'm still favouring cele. But the new Wizards amulet could be a good choice - I just haven't tested it yet. Or could go full glass with griever, as chaos does provide things like protection to mitigate some damage, and mirage has sufficient active defence to be full glass.

Regarding your changes - yeah Mirror heal is only good when traited, otherwise lackluster. Tbh the main reason I use it is adventurer rune synergy for the extra mirage cloak and clone generation. If not traiting Mirror then tbh the heals are an open choice - I don't think there is a clear "best" heal anymore.

Illusions does improve burst for condi, sure, and also helps with things like aoe F3 and torch cooldown, however in hybrid I don't find it necessary at all especially if managing ambush shatter combos correctly to burst stack conditions together with direct damage burst - a 3 illusion axe 3 into F1, with the whole thing either preceeded or followed by ambush (don't need to precede axe 3 by ambush because not using IH in pvp/wvw, unlike in pve, although you can ambush before axe 3 and time axe 3 so it hits the same time as the ambhsh hits plus F1 to synchronise the burst) for example can hit hard - and with BD you get instant +300 condi damage (vigour plus 5 might). Which helps on the condition stacks

I like your idea of double axes, though I love staff too much to tear myself away from it. Actually it's more the case I don't like Pistol or offhand Sword too much, and sadly Focus still sucks in pvp especially untraited.

I don't think I could play mirage without DE having got used to it - everything just flows so smoothly that I don't want to use anything else.

Gosh, it seems you are on the right side of the boat whereas I am still struggling to decide how to play hybrid. But I guess we should define hybrid, first.

I feel my play style leans more on condis than melee damage. But I like going toe to toe with axe because it deals quite good damage. However, I cannot always do this. Certain professions will tear you apart if you stay 1 sec. too much in melee range. So having good conditions and a bit of power/crit too, feels necessary.

But after trying so many builds I came to realize there's not a build that rules them all, so to say. It always depends who you face. And the skill of the player, of course. But this reflect thing should deserve more attention. But I guess we should be happy that not many are running it, because it counters certain builds so bad that makes me feel pity for those who try to kill you ranged :-D

@trooper.2650 said:Gosh, it seems you are on the right side of the boat whereas I am still struggling to decide how to play hybrid. But I guess we should define hybrid, first.

I feel my play style leans more on condis than melee damage. But I like going toe to toe with axe because it deals quite good damage. However, I cannot always do this. Certain professions will tear you apart if you stay 1 sec. too much in melee range. So having good conditions and a bit of power/crit too, feels necessary.

But after trying so many builds I came to realize there's not a build that rules them all, so to say. It always depends who you face. And the skill of the player, of course. But this reflect thing should deserve more attention. But I guess we should be happy that not many are running it, because it counters certain builds so bad that makes me feel pity for those who try to kill you ranged :-D

Haha, yeah it is all personal preference.

I play hybrid because it gives me the satisfaction of some instant burst as well as having the benefits of attrition. But I lean towards a more bursty playstyle because I always enjoyed power shatter in the past, but wanted something more "bruisery" and less 100-0 glass cannon.

And yeah I hope the reflect stays under the radar - it's too much fun kittening all over p/p thieves, bow rangers, DH's, engis or whatever - there's a lot of projectiles out there and it adds another layer of offence. :)