serialkicker.5274
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Posts posted by serialkicker.5274
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@Krzysztof.5973 said:
@serialkicker.5274Similar minded players can play together without dps meter. We call it lfg, we call it guilds, we call it friendlist.Similar minded players can play together with dps meter. We call it lfg, we call it guilds, we call it friendlist.I just want to know why is it that for You, only one of those statements is right?Because one has unnecessary, option component to it, that mostly just adds negative aspect to it in a form that is presented atm. If it was raid only or personal meter only, there would be no issue.
@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:
Except the excerpt you quoted is not a "make your own group argument." It's a "sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander" argument.Well, it is basically. It boils down to group being free to make whatever rules they want and enforce them. And I never disagreed with that.
It goes for both sides. I'm not arguing they can't have requirements and kick people from group for not following them. I'm arguing that having these rules or mindset in the first place is just unfortunate and quite silly. And using third party software to enforce those rules is just... taking things too seriously in a video game.You are welcome to that opinion. What it looks like from the other side of the discussion is that you think that it's OK for players who want to do instanced content with their idiosyncratic build to be allowed to join any group they want to, essentially playing they want. However, you don't think people who want a specific group composition ought to play the game the way they want to.I don't know how you got to that conclusion. Everyone can play the way they want, they just don't need dps meter to spy on others in order to do it. You are joining PUG - PUBLIC GROUP. If you are afraid that you might get a less than impressive player here and there, then get a guild or friends that you know can fulfill those needs. No need to police public groups that just look to complete the instance.There is a lot more willingness to accept off-meta builds now than there was before meters. Is there still a minimum standard (one that is likely to be lower for some groups than others)? Yep.You can't prove this is due to dps meter. It could be any number of factors. You are trying to compare time when dungeons were the only end game content and highest challenging one, to a time, when people had extra years to try new stuff out of boredom, got elite specs which opened up many new builds, got many, many more gear stat combinations, complete trait rework, more runes and sigils, more usable weapons for each class, different instanced content (same build won't work with same efficiency in dungeons and in raids), the longer the game is going, the bigger is chance even meta boys will want to try something fresh, new class, even if it's not considered in "top" and realize it's not actually that bad, maybe a lot of hardcore elitists quit the game before expansions came for being too casual etc. There are many factors and also possible factors that contributed to that.Besides meta is still going very strong and people are still looking for certain builds and roles( bs, qhf, hfb, qchrono etc), just as before, it's just more variety now, due to all the factors. And lastly, this is not even about meta. Like I said, people can make any lfg they want and if they feel they need bs warrior, then get it. Not an issue. I'm just tired of dps meter being so spread out and almost high on priority list as meta builds themselves, so much that I regularly encounter them even in groups with not requirement or groups that actually say "all welcome". People pretend that I'm joining some groups that I'm not suppose to and then complain I was kicked or some shit like that. I can read, thank you very much. And I don't join groups I don't meet requirements for. Doesn't mean I don't meet with idiots who use dps meter to trashtalk, complain, point fingers and even kick others for stupid reasons in group with no requirements And it doesn't mean that I don't see people who are still lacking basic knowledge of the game using dps meter and thinking if they reach that magical number, they are now a good player. It has come this far, that I got convinced that dps meter is actually detrimental to the community.This is where the "They can make their own group" argument would come in. Sounds like you believe that -- no matter how much or how little time people have to play..If you don't have time to play, you have chosen wrong game or you have chosen wrong content in the game. If you insist on playing through those instances, despite having little time, then get a guild for it, if you are afraid that lfg with requirements is not enough. Trying to police others on damage, just because you don't have time... well, that's just silly.Is the club team wrong for not taking anyone? Or, are they allowed to set standards.No they are not wrong, same as guilds are not wrong to take anyone. They would be wrong to go into a public match and then not just expect that random people play by the rules of a club/guild, but they even go so far to pull out a analysis tool that will determine if they are really meeting those expectation. That would be silly.Are there such people? Sure. Would banning meters stop them from: having standards; picking less appropriate criteria to base their judgment on; talking down to people they perceive as not in their in-crowd; and enforcing their will in their groups? Nope.There are people who will kill, steal, exploit, cheat and thousand other things, whether we have rules and laws or not. So might as well get rid of the rules and laws to make it easier for them, right?The real culprit, though, is ANet. If you want more inclusiveness, the best way to get this would be for ANet to bring up the under-performing builds, weapons, etc. so that there is not a 1000% difference between top-tier performance and bottom-tier.I highly doubt that. The best they could do is forbid third party tools. Balancing is important of course, but wouldn't make much difference in this case. You don't need your class or build to be on top ten list on snowcrows in order for you to complete the content or be a contribution to your team. There is enough (I'll never say no to more obviously) build diversity in game right now. People just stick to the best and there will always be the best, no matter how you balance it. If you play off meta build, it doesn't mean you'll do 10x less damage or something crazy like that. So, it's not about builds not being super close in efficiency or damage. It's about people learning how to play. And to do that, you definitely don't party dps meter.Anyway, I've said my piece and this discussion/topic is going nowhere really. No point in talking in circles, so I'm done here. Feel free to respond to this post if you need, Indigo. I won't respond, but I will read it out of respect for your polite manners, unlike some who decided to start making things up and lie to make their points. Take care.
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@"Cyninja.2954" said:
I fail to see how even you mentioning: how most games even on your list, having dps meters, is me making things up. You made that list, and on that list, the vast majority of games have dps meters. You made that list, not me. Some light research on the subject matter though in games you listed without dos meters shows they have issues with judging player performance.I see you joined the "making shit up and lying" club. Therefore this is my last response to you. Feel free to join one of the dudes above that keeps replying to me, while I don't read anything he says, because he also decided to lie to make his point.You said every single game has dps meter, which is not the case. Any I only mentioned few popular games. There are tons of other games around and they don't all have dps meter (you didn't even said mmos, just game in general and there are even plenty of mmofps games that have group content including raids and don't have dps meter. I proved you wrong and now you are trying to save your ass by playing it off as I'm not getting it or something. Your cherry picked research that they have problems judging performance doesn't really says much. You can find plenty of critics on each game. Just take a look at all "gw2 is dead" topics that we had so far. Of course you can find topic like that, because in each game, there are people who want to monitor others, so they make such topics.
So even the games without dps meter are not necessarily benefitting from the lack of such a tool, which you have yet to prove in the first place.You can't possibly know that. Just because you found a topic or two of people asking for dps meter so they could judge their performance, doesn't mean it's needed or that it would indeed help. Speculation is best you can do.I certainly don't see dps meter helping in case of gw2. From my take it actually encouraged many to look at their damage and thinking they learned how to play the game. Which is actually being ignorant as you mentioned it. Thinking you know how to play because you can pull of a rotation.If players want to be picky, and there has always been players being picky even in this game, even before raids, even before dps meters, then players will be picky. Closing ones eyes to this reality might be fun, but it is just that: willful ignorance. Removing dps meters is not going to change those players.We went through this multiple times already. Doesn't have anything to do with dps meter. Just because people are jerks, doesn't mean you should give them even more tools and encourage them to be even bigger jerks.Glad you finally admitted though how dps meters are benefitting this game: they allow for similar minded players to find each other, thereby reducing friction. Which only arises when players of different approach get thrown together in the first place most often.Similar minded players can play together without dps meter. We call it lfg, we call it guilds, we call it friendlist.
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@Sigmoid.7082 said:
@serialkicker.5274 said:@Hyrai.8720 said:@serialkicker.5274 said:Thanks for confirming you don't need a dps meter. I knew you had it in you.I just said I'll kick you for being lowest dps... ;)Below that you said with or without dps meter. And I wouldn't be lowest dps, you can be sure of that. ;)I think you're just being purposefully obtuse and disingenuous at this point.It's very clear what they meant. I don't understand how you could misconstrue someone saying "my squad my rules." Including an example where a dps meter would be used as "thanks for saying you don't need a dps meter".You're being willfully ignorant of the context of what they are saying to try and prove a point but it's adding absolutely nothing to this discussion that's dragging on as it's now just you arguing with almost everyone else in circles...Yes, it's clear what they meant, and it was nonsense. What do you expect back for that? He argues that he's free to do whatever he pleases with his group, because he makes up rules. Well, obviously. Of course he can do whatever he wants. Nothing stops him. But nothings stop me from not caring about his subjective rules. It wouldn't be a nice and reasonable thing from me to ignore his lfg, same as it wouldn't be a nice or reasonable thing for him to kick me simply because my char looks ugly for example. So, this argument make no sense and has nothing to do with dps meter being a good idea or not. I already said multiple times that I'm not here to argue whether someone has right to make their rules and lfg. I'm here to argue dps meter being harmful tool from my experience. You don't need dps meter to form an lfg and set your rules.
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@Hyrai.8720 said:
@serialkicker.5274 said:Thanks for confirming you don't need a dps meter. I knew you had it in you.I just said I'll kick you for being lowest dps... ;)Below that you said with or without dps meter. And I wouldn't be lowest dps, you can be sure of that. ;)
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@Hyrai.8720 said:
@serialkicker.5274 said:@Hyrai.8720 said:@serialkicker.5274 said:@Hyrai.8720 said:...I told you, I've never seen a lfg that would specify how much damage is required. Have you?No I haven't. And we never will. Because dps numbers are very different depending on what boss you're at.That's why people ask for a certain experience (within possibility of the given tools, such as LI ping etc.) so the people joining know what is expected from them.If you need a specific number spelled out for you, chances are you're not experienced enough to begin with.So you admit you have no good argument, you can subjectively decide anytime that someone in your party is not doing enough and kick them? Gotcha.While leading a squad I can decide to kick you whenever I want and for whatever reason I want. I never stated anything else.That's the only argument I need.You wrote something in chat i don't agree with? kickYou play ranger? kickYour char looks stupid? kickYou're last in dps? kickMy squad, my rules. With or without dps meter.Thanks for confirming you don't need a dps meter. I knew you had it in you.
@Laila Lightness.8742 said:So basicly you want the option to kick or leave to be removed so you must have same ppl full run and ban all meters and talk of performanceI have no idea how you came to that conclusion.
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@Hyrai.8720 said:
@serialkicker.5274 said:@Hyrai.8720 said:...I told you, I've never seen a lfg that would specify how much damage is required. Have you?No I haven't. And we never will. Because dps numbers are very different depending on what boss you're at.That's why people ask for a certain experience (within possibility of the given tools, such as LI ping etc.) so the people joining know what is expected from them.If you need a specific number spelled out for you, chances are you're not experienced enough to begin with.So you admit you have no good argument, you can subjectively decide anytime that someone in your party is not doing enough and kick them? Gotcha.
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@Cyninja.2954 said:
So you are changing your stance to DPS meters should not be allowed unless it's for raids/challenging content. Sure, that would be an option. Hard to enforce unless Arenanet introduced their own damage meter, hopefully with as many or better functions than ARCDPS.I'm not changing my stance. This was always my stance, it was mentioned probably like three pages ago if it wasn't maybe deleted by now. And correction: not challenging content, only raids, because it has a strict timer and you actually need good dps, different roles and good organization. No doubt, raids are usually the absolute end game or highest challenging content of any game that has them, so people know what to expect.
@"serialkicker.5274" said:Meanwhile, even at my level I do regular checks of damage logs to see how fights went post fight. Damage is most often the least of my interestes, and I rather focus on combat flow, positioning, boons as well as rotations both to understand why someone might have outperformed me or why something went wrong.That's fine. Do you need to see entire group damage for that?Other games have damage meters. Literally all of them. Some even have other addons which do nearly all the mechanics for them. Deadly Boss Mods is quit popular in WoW.Literally every single one? You sure?I haven't played every mmo obviously, but from what I've read and from what I've been told from friends who did play them (if I make a mistake, feel free to correct me):FFXIV didn't use one for ages and they were doing fine. They later caved in and allowed one, but it's supposedly not allowed to talk about dps meter in public chat.Blade and Soul: Has personal dps meter (which I'm fine with and wouldn't mind in gw2). Party dps meter is allowed only in raids and hardmode dungeons.BDO: NO dps meter.SWTOR: No dps meter. You can use some third party tool to pull out combat log for your own numbers.Archeage: No dps meter. Only personal damage logs.
So, either they don't have dps meter or many didn't have them for yeaaaars and did completely fine without them.
We had the time before damage meters in this game. I like to refer to that time as the: "bring 10k AP, no necro or ranger" times. Or also occasionally the:"4 warriors 1 mesmer" times. Thanks, I wouldn't want to go back to that.I don't know why people thing is a good argument. That's like saying guns are not a problem, because people killed each other without them in the past. Or racism is not a problem, because people always found a way to discriminate.Besides, you are going back into times when dungeons were pretty much the only end game content worth repeating and was also the only somewhat challenging content. All the elitists where there, so of course you would often see these kind of lfg. Doesn't mean you couldn't find regular lfgs or that you couldn't make your own group.
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@Tayga.3192 said:
@"serialkicker.5274" said:There is nowhere in definition that would specify where the limit between contributing or not is. You just made it up, same as people tend to do when they use dps meter. With this logic, I could literally kick someone who does 20k damage, but that's 100 points of damage less than me, therefore, I could consider it not contributing. It's subjective. We could also take an example where let's say we have 5 man group - 1st does 20k, second does 21k, third does 22k, fourth does 23k and fifth does 24k. Average is 22k, therefore one with 20k and one with 21k would get kicked for being below average, thus not contributing in your logic. See, I can be super technical too and I can exaggerate too.You are also talking extremes. Nobody kicks 20k when top is 24k and you know it. "not contributing" is not doing just a bit less dps, it's about not doing enough dps to carry your weight (assuming 6 dps, everyone should aim for burning through approximately 16-17% of the boss' HP).If more than one player can do 20k+ dps while one person does <15k there is a slight problem (maybe missed rotation etc) but if they do <10k that means something is seriously wrong.Obviously mechanics play a huge part in this.Yeah, I literally mentioned that making exaggeration and being technical is easy and I demonstrated that. If people decide to use certain logic, then I'm allow to use it too.Also, that people should share dps farly equally to be considered contribution, that is purely your opinion and nothing else. Definition of contribution is clear.
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@Cyninja.2954 said:
developer quote. It's from the games own metrics. It was also far worse than top tier players doing 10 times the damage of others. The exact quote referenced top tier players doing 10 times the damage of the remaining AVERAGE, which again suggest a far worse gap then between top and bottom tier performance players.
Back when GW2raidar was still a thing, basically a collection of data which players submitted their damage logs to for the database, there was a gap between top performance and bottom tier of 500%, that is top tier players where often doing 5 times the damage that lowest players did. This based based ONLY on successful raid boss kills. The unsuccessful ones where not even in the statistic.You took raids to make your example, when I already made clear, that is the only exception I would make, because bosses are on timer there, but it would be best for Arenanet to put official dps meter in, that would work just for raids.Also, taking raids as example, where potential of max dps is a lot higher and easier achieveable, because you have 10 people that allow for basically all buffs covered and boss fight last long enough that you could actually make use of those buffs and entire rotation. Then of course the gap can be larger. I already said raids are a different beast in gw2 and many think they should never happen in gw2, but that's another topic.
If you spent some time in different performance groups, from top tier to practice runs for group content, you'd know how big the gap is. The simple truth here is: you are simply oblivious as to how big the gap in player skills in this game is. Which is fine, for the majority of content high performance is not needed, not even decent or bad performance. The problem is that a vast majority of this player base are not even capable of bad performance, they are strait up terrible. These are not extreme cases, this is every day performance disparity in this player base.Don't assume things please. I did content with high performing groups for a long time. We did smooth and fast runs, falling behind official record runs by maybe 10-15%, depending on the instance. Obviously we had guilds and friendlist for that. You don't see a professional football player come and play with random people on the street and demand they meet some high criteria, so he can have fun. That's why he plays for club, where he can play professional matches on such level. To expect to play to such level even in pugs is just sad and taking game way too seriously.So yes, experienced players will be able to immediately notice a damage dealer doing 2k damage. What about less experienced players? Experience is no on/off switch. What about a group which already struggles and does not manage to carry an even worse performing player? Should they start making assumptions as to where the problem is? You are literally stating that guess work is better than hard facts.Oh fucking no. How the hell do other games manage that? Yeah, let's solve this by monitoring each other and then pointing fingers /s Less experienced players should first learn how game works before relying on damage to discriminate among players. Many players can pull the rotation after smacking golems for a week and they might be happy with their dps meter showing good numbers, but many of them aren't good players. That's what happens when a new player asks for a advice and he's immediately pointed at snowcrows where he falls into this mindset or think it's expected of him to run that build and reach those numbers.That is without getting into any of the benefits data analysis of fights allows for performance and practice purposes for actually regular groups which simply want to succeed at a fight.You can succeed at any fight without dps meter. I'm doing it for at least 20 years across many games without issues.
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@"Hyrai.8720" said:
...I told you, I've never seen a lfg that would specify how much damage is required. Have you? you didn't answer and I asked you so nicely to give me a honest answer. In 8 years of playing, I haven't seen a single lfg that would say "you need to do at least 20k damage" or whatever.And you keep missing the point of overall argument. This is not me arguing that someone who makes their own group isn't allowed to make his rules and enforce them. I'm arguing that people do all kind of nasty things with the help of this tool and I think it's badly effecting the community and I've given plenty of examples of the things I've seen.I just simply don't think it's worth it and I'm against it. And then people go all technical like "you can make your own group". Well, you could too, no dps meter was needed. You could also play with experienced players and do fast and smooth runs. I did them for years before meter was out. And then when I later got bored of same, repetitive runs with same classes, builds, tactics, stacking points and so on, I started to play it more casual. And I had no problem finding group as a ranger before dps meter.So, clearly you already had a tool to play the game the way you wanted. It's called LFG and was always there.
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@Tayga.3192 said:
@"serialkicker.5274" said:I'll leave you with definition of contributionIf player A does 10 times the damage of player B (and if both are dps), player B is either training or leeching (in both cases, B is not contributing enough). Obviously I assume player B has no special role.A hardcore player does 10 times more dps than an "average" player, the keyword here is "average". The quote in the article I linked explicitly says "average player". Not "new player".There is nowhere in definition that would specify where the limit between contributing or not is. You just made it up, same as people tend to do when they use dps meter. With this logic, I could literally kick someone who does 20k damage, but that's 100 points of damage less than me, therefore, I could consider it not contributing. It's subjective. We could also take an example where let's say we have 5 man group - 1st does 20k, second does 21k, third does 22k, fourth does 23k and fifth does 24k. Average is 22k, therefore one with 20k and one with 21k would get kicked for being below average, thus not contributing in your logic. See, I can be super technical too and I can exaggerate too.You are taking every extreme cases to make your point. Hardcore player dealing 10x more damage. Some people say I'm making things up, but then they come up with crazy ideas and examples. That would mean that one does 2k damage and the other does 20k. Yeah, let's exaggerate like that to make the point, huh? And even 20k is pushing it, depending on the content. Like I said, I've ran dps meter for a while. Healers can do 2k or more. So don't be silly. Besides, in rare cases where someone would be doing 2k damage as dps role, you should be able to notice that without dps meter.
Leeching on fractals/raids is not fine since you have a limited amount of players.Makes zero sense. Is there anywhere where players are not limited? We can have million people or more in the same map?
Leeching in OW is more than fine, who cares about doing any relevant amount of dps on chak gerent or on triple trouble wurms? There will always be 4-5 people who kill 90% of the boss for the remaining players anyway. I myself usually just autoattack while watching something on my phone.Hello, contradiction! Suddenly this is fine, despite there is also a limited amount of players that can participate. And you said 5 people will do the majority of the job. So, why can't 5 people do majority in dungeons or fractal? I mean, boss dies anyway, there is no timer aside from raids (there might be rare exception)
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@knite.1542 said:
@"serialkicker.5274" said:Level 80 people that are playing the game for at least two weeks, will rarely have dps so low, that it should be considered not contributing to the team.How would you know this without a dps meter? I am mostly asking because it isn't true.- I've ran dps meter for some time to see how "helpful" it actually is and to see how consistent people are with their claims.
- How do people know if someone is absolute trash or not in games without dps meter? Skill, knowledge, seeing their tactics, positioning, choice of skills/utilities etc.
@"Tayga.3192" said:
He's just talking randomly without any backup.Cute. But he claiming it isn't true is a fact and evidence? Or any of your claims? Hahah. FacepalmI'll leave you with definition of contribution, because it seems you are confused about it: "something that you contribute or do to help produce or achieve something together with other people, or to help make something successful".
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@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:
If someone makes or joins a group where the stated preference is "all welcome" or even "DPS meters not welcome," then what stops people from enforcing their preferences in that group?
If someone joins a group with stated preferences which would lead one to believe that high performance is the group's goal, why should that group not enforce their preferences any more than the other group?This "you can make your own group" argument is getting old, repetitive and silly. It goes for both sides. I'm not arguing they can't have requirements and kick people from group for not following them. I'm arguing that having these rules or mindset in the first place is just unfortunate and quite silly. And using third party software to enforce those rules is just... taking things too seriously in a video game. I think it badly affects the community. I find it sad that people don't have any respect and faith in their fellow players in community to be able to contribute on their own. I find it sad that efficiency and numbers are the top priority for many and that they would deny others from joining the fun, just because they don't wish push buttons in same pattern over and over again or carry a weapon that is currently considered the best for their class. Imagine if we treated every entertainment that way. Trying to play some casual football with your friends and they'd tell you "hey, until you get these sweet ass sneakers and score at least 3 goals, you aren't playing with us, boy". Heck, even in competitive scene, people like to experiment and beat opponents with techniques and tactics that haven't been done before.
People get easily influenced and fall into mindset that most people are following. One day I play with this chill guildie, we do some smooth and fun runs, company is good and then... two weeks later all he can talk about is rotation and how much dps he can pull. Comes to the point where he start questioning my choice of weapons, because they are not current meta. It's just silly and sad. And I can still outdps him and have a lot more knowledge on mechanics, but that doesn't matter, because I won't be able to end up in parties with those people (well if it's guildie he'll make an exception usually out of politnes), because apparently they all think if you are not following meta or if you don't use dps meter to monitor yourself, you don't care about your performance and you are bad player.
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@"Hyrai.8720" said:
your point was pretty much: the only acceptable limits are those limits set by the game itself (see quote below).others disagreed, saying players are free to set their own limits (even if they exceed the bare minimum) and only accept players in their squad that agree to those limits.no logical inconsistency there.I see you are having a bit of trouble. So here, let me help you up, ok?Dude says: "Again, it is not up to you to decide how much damage is "enough" for the other players in your group."And I reply: "But it's up to them to decide whether my dps is below their subjective limit, so they can kick me? Nice logic."Take your time.
It's not me who is deciding anything about anyones dps. It's certain people who use dps meter. I'm just joining the group and killing stuff. And if I do let's say 15k dps and top guy does 20k, he could decide that by his pure opinion, I'm not contributing enough and kicks me. (I've yet to see lfg that would says 20k required or something like that in almost 8 years of playing).
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@"Astralporing.1957" said:
We cannot do the same with Arc, because Arc primary purpose is completely benign. Yes, it can also be used by toxic people to "justify" toxic behaviour, in the same way a frying pan can be used to smash someone's head, but in said case it's the toxic behaviour that is a problem, not using Arc itself.That's a fair point about cheats, I agree. It wasn't the best analogy from me, but argument would stay the same. If you say that only factor that contributes to the problem is people and tool has nothing to do with it, like some suggested, than we have a problem. Because with that logic, we could allow any kind of tool and if it's being misused, we could just point finger at people and say "well, talk to them".
There are games where developers and players are very much against certain things like dps meters, mods, overlays, even afk farming, while other companies allow them. Why? Well, I guess some of them concluded it potentially provides more harm than good. And it certainly isn't something that would be very much needed to complete anything in game, so why risk it.
And that's what my opinion is and why I'm against it. From my own experience, I see it doing more harm than good. I see people using it to insult others. I see people using it to kick other for not contributing enough, even though they are contributing enough to complete the instance. I see people trying to be cool boys and reach that sweet 40k, failing to realize they can't do it outside perfectly organized raid with certain party composition and builds - because it depends on the entire team. I see people caring for every single bit of dps so much, they die of basic aoes, because their eyes are glued on dps meter. I see people mistaking their high dps for being a skilled player, when they don't even understand certain mechanics/bosses, they just practiced their rotation and high dps is all that matters to them. And I could go on.
I've played many online games. Maybe I was lucky, but gw2 is the first and only one I saw using dps meters (and it's the most casual game off all I played). In no other game, we had problems completing any content and having fun. DPS role was any class that was meant to dps. You played the class you enjoyed. Here in gw2, people make all classes just to have them at ready. And then they play the one that is currently meta and does most damage. I haven't seen this trend anywhere else, in all honesty.
But, I digress - I just think dps meter is harmful for community. If it was self dps meter, sure, but as it is now, I don't see it being "helpful" enough to be worth it. But, hey, don't worry, looks like most people can't live without it, so I think you guys are safe.
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@"Shikaru.7618" said:
I'm a solo open world/story player primarily. Arcdps is a valuable tool for players like me.
It is, but you don't need access to other players info to do that.It gives me easy access to the information I need to improve my performance not only as a solo player, but also in group content when I choose to participate in it. It's important to me that I know I'm contributing sufficiently and not burdening the groups I join as I go about the business of playing the way I want to play rather than chasing the meta for content I don't really care much about.You don't need dps meter to know you are contributing. Level 80 people that are playing the game for at least two weeks, will rarely have dps so low, that it should be considered not contributing to the team. Where do you draw the line? Does a football player who doesn't score any goal not contribute? Does a football player who makes less perfect passes than someone else, not contribute to the team? Does a goalkeeper who makes less saves than other goalkeeper not contribute to the team?The only content you could put a limit on and then argue that not reaching said limit, it is considered not contributing, could be stuff like raids or other content that has timer on it, because you can calculate average needed dps per player in order to beat the content. There you could say "look, you are doing less than average damage needed to complete this content, therefore you are putting a burden on others in the team to do more damage to even up odds."That's why I said, I could only really see dps meter be ok in raids and in that case, it should be implemented by Arenanet, because raids are obviously different kind of content than the rest of the game that is suppose to be very casual.
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@"Linken.6345" said:
The problem wirh you liking arcdps to cheats is that one is allowed and the other is not tho, how can you not understand that?And its not the people that use a arcdps thats a problem its some people just like you, your self admited kicking people for just talking about dps right before the end reward of instances.You are part of the problem mate, next time let them get reward and then kick and block. ( nickname so you remember why you blocked)
A fucking what? You are straight up lying right now. When did I link arcdps to cheating and when did I "admit" I kicked anyone before last reward? You are just making shit up and lying. Stop replying to me, because this is certainly my last reply to you.
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@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:
Thing is your issue is not because of meters and it's not a cheat either (Anet say it's ok as long as it didn't break the tos), so why are you against it?
I didn't say it's a cheat. I'm using cheats as another example in different context, since people clearly have problems with cheats. Yes, my problem is with people in general, but that doesn't mean that giving them tools to promote their bad behavior should be a thing. I've seen enough nonsense that relates to dps meters by now, that I concluded it's a bad idea.
@Astralporing.1957 said:
That you should blame the real reasons, not try to muddle the issue by shifting the discussion to something tangential.If your problem is with toxic people, you should talk about that, not something else. Not every toxic player is using Arc. Not every player using Arc is toxic. So why do you concentrate on Arc, if, in reality, it has nothing to do with the issue at hand?Not every toxic player uses cheats. Does that mean cheats are ok? We shouldn't ban cheats, we should only have an issue with people right? Yeah, in perfect world that could work maybe, but we don't live in that world. So, if you give people tools to do bad things, they will do bad things.Why don't we have open world pvp for example? Because some people think it would be a bad experience and toxic people would enjoy trollingand picking on weak players just to ruin their day. But, with your logic, having an option is not an issue, issue is toxic people who are doing that. So, let's not take away an option for people who want this, we should focus on people being toxic about it. Does that make sense to you?
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The main probrem you seem to have is with some people behaviors. Yes there are toxic people around and they would still be toxic without dps meter (probably even more based on the time before meters).That's why @Astralporing.1957 said it's a "byproduct". If you remove it from the game, it won't change a thing for you, some toxic will still join your party without reading the lfg and flame you for whatever reason...Just block them (you can also put a surname like "toxic guy"), report them if they insult, kick and move on.
There will be toxic people whether you ban cheaters or not. So what's your point?
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@Astralporing.1957 said:As i see it, blaming ArcDPS for what is happening is as sensible as blaming infection tests for Covid. ArcDPS is not the cause of many issues people in this thread have trouble with. It's merely a byproduct. The real cause is coupling the existence of content where dps matters a lot with game design that causes massive dps disparity within player community. ArcDPS is just a tool that lets some group of players deal with some negative consequences of game design. Nothing more. Blaming it for anything is completely missing the issue at large.
Yeah, and cheats are just a byproduct of people's inability to actually beat the game or face the challenge, so they help themselves with it to feel better or to annoy others.Afk farming is just byproduct of people wanting to get loot that they didn't earn.So, people shouldn't have a problem with cheats or afk farming itself.
How is content itself a problem? You can complete all content without any kind of third party tools. Knowing mechanics is often a lot more important that extra 5k of dps. Problem is obviously in players. And if you give them tools to promote their behaviour and simplify it, then they are going to take it, just like if you allow them to exploit a mechanic or bug it, they are going to do it, even though it was not meant to be played that way.
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@Katary.7096 said:
@serialkicker.5274 said:@Sinful Mustache.3589 said:@serialkicker.5274 said:Because we are talking about third party tool that is quite obviously not needed and only provides opportunity for people to abuse itIt quite obviously provides not only opportunity to abuse it, but also a ton of profit. Just likeany other toolin this very universe.I know, total vanity. You, offended casuals, dont care about reading and thinking about what veterans are trying to teach you on 7 pages already.Also knifes, scissors, wrenches, hammers, cars and bottles provide opportunity for people to abuse them and eventually kill other people.Lets ban all these tools, yes? Your pure logicThat's hilarious. We are going into extremes then, huh? Cheats and bots are also utility. I guess we shouldn't ban them, with your logic.I can say with confidence that I am capable of utilizing knifes and cars without breaking any rules. How would someone who is using cheats or bots when playing gw2 play the game without breaking any rules?Well, look above. People think using taco for ability akin to wallhack in other games is not considered cheating.Plus, there are plenty of countermeasures that auto detect cheats in various games. No need for you to even misuse them or hurt anyone with them. But, let's play your game. Let's say I use bots to gather materials for me. I then use those materials to upgrade my personal guild hall that no one else has access to. I didn't break any laws or hurt anyone.Or even If I decided to donate those materials to new players, I wouldn't break any laws with that.
@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:some people here are just weird. how can anyone call a dps-checker cheating?Can you quote anyone who said that. I must have missed it.
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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:
The issue I'm seeing here, is that you took a line, brought it out of context and asked for an answer to a question about the line while being out of context, and I gave an answer considering the original quote's context which you found unconvincing because it was in context.I didn't bring it out of context. I read your posts before I made mine. Your statement sounded to me like a separate thing, question on its own. It sounded to me like "Despite all the reasoning I gave of not seeing it happen, why would gods even be in expansion that is about dragons?" If you meant otherwise, then you worded it badly. If you would word it in a way that would be clear you are talking about your opinion, like "I don't feel it's likely to happen..." or "I don't see enough hints, proof to see it happen..." or "considering what we know and considering reasons I gave, I don't think we'll see gods in expansion" or something like that. Instead you put out a general question "Why would gods be in a expansion focused on dragons?" I understand if it's a misunderstanding, but that's what I got from it and I didn't feel like I'm pulling it out of context.
Even plot twists need build up - they just shouldn't be obvious build up. When you don't have build up for a plot twist, we get kitten like the Lazarus/Balthazar reveal (technically that did have buildup but the buildup was so subtle that they're only noticeable after scrutinizing with hindsight).Lyssa already has a build up. So, not sure why you keep going with this idea.Of course, I won't argue that such hints must be in the teaser trailer - in fact, I would argue the opposite. But that only furthers my original argument of the teaser not hinting at the return of any god, let alone specifically Lyssa.It's a teaser. And even here we don't know much of what it means. I highly doubt you knew much of what's about to happen in PoF, just by watching PoF teaser.And certainly, there were many things in PoF that had impact in story, but weren't seen in teaser.
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@Hesione.9412 said:
Good grief, running Taco is cheating, specifically in guild mission races?
What is it then? That's like saying turning wallhack on is not cheating. Both show you something that you aren't suppose to see and wasn't meant to be seen that way, so you have an edge over others.This is how some people react to those who use taco. I just shared my experience, seeing other people who want to do the mission the regular way and they get discouraged. So how is that helpful?
@"Shikaru.7618" said:Sounds like in your example a dpsmeter was helpful to prove you were pulling your weight and those making baseless claims without it should really get it. So why are we banning them again?
How did it help? He insulted us and we blocked him. At no point ever, in all the years I have played the game, I didn't hear anyone apologize for making a mistake or not making sense with his insults. People get triggered easily and then they feel like insulting others in order for them to feel better about themselves. That guy didn't learn anything that day. He had meter on because he told us, but he didn't explain how I'm doing bad dps. I assumed it was just "you are scrapper, if you would play meta class, you could do more damage" kinda logic, but who knows. This was "all welcome" lfg btw. I get a lot of such people. They just join, probably because they don't want to wait for proper lfg. If run goes smooth, they might not say anything, but as soon as something might go wrong, some people loose their shit, as if the world is suddenly collapsing, because someone died. So, yeah, that guy didn't learn anything and will do same thing again next time.
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@"Krzysztof.5973" said:
DPS meter falls into the category of "everyone".Cheats also fall into "everyone" category.
Dungeon meta is self-explanatory. Berserker statset is still "meta" in most cases whether it fits your playstyle or not. Not because people are slaves to DPS meter or "elitists" but because it's most efficient which was the case even before DPS meters were here. With creation of them we only received a confirmation that it was the case, which proved certain people wrong.What does stats have to do with this topic? Let me tell you a secret. You can be berserker and not exploit content or have dps meter. Yeah, shocking.Class balance and dungeon design however are a vastly different stories. If by their design we as players were not meant to rush it or rather get to the point where playerbase is capable of efficiently clearing dungeons - the devs would not let us. They also wouldn't give us so many stat options if their choice would not allow players to approach this type of content in more relaxed manner.That's like saying bugged content are how game was meant to be played, since there are bunch of bugs that persist through years or even never get fixed. Or exploits. People were permanently banned for certain exploits in games in general. I don't remember a case in gw2, if there were any, but afk-farming was also kinda grey area and was discussed quite a bit.They don't design it to play it a singular way. We decide it. If you can speedrun every single path with your friends in glass cannon build GO FOR IT. I don't see how can you be so fixated on only one side of the coin. There is a group of people who prefer to have DPS meters and pull the biggest numbers they can. They have right to have this choice.Yes, community is who decides to be jerks. Cheater is also a part of community that decides to use cheats. Does that mean we shouldn't prohibit cheats, because it's actually up to a player if they will use them and in what manner?I have no problem with people speedrunning (if they can properly read descriptions). I did it myself for a long time. Problem is with the attitude of people and how this meta obsession and dps meters puts them into mindset that failure is not an option or completing content in 2 minutes more than expected is considered the end of the world.I even had cases where I did multiple dungeons or strikes with same people, all went smooth and then first time we failed and few people died in like 6th strike or dungeon, that triggers one or two and they start insulting others. I never flip up, especially not at first failure and especially not after 6 smooth runs I did with the said group. So I try to prevent drama and just say something like "no worries guys, let's do it this time". And then someone turns to me with "shut up, you're not even good dps". While I was in top 3 at the time (beaten by dragonhunters, while I was on my scrapper - and no I wasn't behind by miles, it was like 2k dps difference). Sometimes I truly wish I'd have videos and screen to paste in these topics, but it's not like it would make a difference really, because people always make up excuses regardless. I just block and go on.
Hey, Please Don't Make the Game Impossible to Solo.
in Guild Wars 2 Discussion
Posted
It means Massively multiplayer online game. In other words, a game where a lot of people play simultaneously in the same universe. Nowhere does it say you should be forced to group up in order to play.