serialkicker.5274

It means Massively multiplayer online game. In other words, a game where a lot of people play simultaneously in the same universe. Nowhere does it say you should be forced to group up in order to play.

Because one has unnecessary, option component to it, that mostly just adds negative aspect to it in a form that is presented atm. If it was raid only or personal meter only, there would be no issue. You are welcome to that opinion. What it looks like from the other side of the discussion is that you think that it's OK for players who want to do instanced content with their idiosyncratic build to be allowed to join any group they want to, essentially playing they want. However, you don't think people who want a specific group composition ought to play the game the way they want to.I don't know how you got to that conclusion. Everyone can play the way they want, they just don't need dps meter to spy on others in order to do it. You are joining PUG - PUBLIC GROUP. If you are afraid that you might get a less than impressive player here and there, then get a guild or friends that you know can fulfill those needs. No need to police public groups that just look to complete the instance.There is a lot more willingness to accept off-meta builds now than there was before meters. Is there still a minimum standard (one that is likely to be lower for some groups than others)? Yep.You can't prove this is due to dps meter. It could be any number of factors. You are trying to compare time when dungeons were the only end game content and highest challenging one, to a time, when people had extra years to try new stuff out of boredom, got elite specs which opened up many new builds, got many, many more gear stat combinations, complete trait rework, more runes and sigils, more usable weapons for each class, different instanced content (same build won't work with same efficiency in dungeons and in raids), the longer the game is going, the bigger is chance even meta boys will want to try something fresh, new class, even if it's not considered in "top" and realize it's not actually that bad, maybe a lot of hardcore elitists quit the game before expansions came for being too casual etc. There are many factors and also possible factors that contributed to that.Besides meta is still going very strong and people are still looking for certain builds and roles( bs, qhf, hfb, qchrono etc), just as before, it's just more variety now, due to all the factors. And lastly, this is not even about meta. Like I said, people can make any lfg they want and if they feel they need bs warrior, then get it. Not an issue. I'm just tired of dps meter being so spread out and almost high on priority list as meta builds themselves, so much that I regularly encounter them even in groups with not requirement or groups that actually say "all welcome". People pretend that I'm joining some groups that I'm not suppose to and then complain I was kicked or some shit like that. I can read, thank you very much. And I don't join groups I don't meet requirements for. Doesn't mean I don't meet with idiots who use dps meter to trashtalk, complain, point fingers and even kick others for stupid reasons in group with no requirements And it doesn't mean that I don't see people who are still lacking basic knowledge of the game using dps meter and thinking if they reach that magical number, they are now a good player. It has come this far, that I got convinced that dps meter is actually detrimental to the community. This is where the "They can make their own group" argument would come in. Sounds like you believe that -- no matter how much or how little time people have to play..If you don't have time to play, you have chosen wrong game or you have chosen wrong content in the game. If you insist on playing through those instances, despite having little time, then get a guild for it, if you are afraid that lfg with requirements is not enough. Trying to police others on damage, just because you don't have time... well, that's just silly. Is the club team wrong for not taking anyone? Or, are they allowed to set standards.No they are not wrong, same as guilds are not wrong to take anyone. They would be wrong to go into a public match and then not just expect that random people play by the rules of a club/guild, but they even go so far to pull out a analysis tool that will determine if they are really meeting those expectation. That would be silly. Are there such people? Sure. Would banning meters stop them from: having standards; picking less appropriate criteria to base their judgment on; talking down to people they perceive as not in their in-crowd; and enforcing their will in their groups? Nope.There are people who will kill, steal, exploit, cheat and thousand other things, whether we have rules and laws or not. So might as well get rid of the rules and laws to make it easier for them, right? The real culprit, though, is ANet. If you want more inclusiveness, the best way to get this would be for ANet to bring up the under-performing builds, weapons, etc. so that there is not a 1000% difference between top-tier performance and bottom-tier.I highly doubt that. The best they could do is forbid third party tools. Balancing is important of course, but wouldn't make much difference in this case. You don't need your class or build to be on top ten list on snowcrows in order for you to complete the content or be a contribution to your team. There is enough (I'll never say no to more obviously) build diversity in game right now. People just stick to the best and there will always be the best, no matter how you balance it. If you play off meta build, it doesn't mean you'll do 10x less damage or something crazy like that. So, it's not about builds not being super close in efficiency or damage. It's about people learning how to play. And to do that, you definitely don't party dps meter. Anyway, I've said my piece and this discussion/topic is going nowhere really. No point in talking in circles, so I'm done here. Feel free to respond to this post if you need, Indigo. I won't respond, but I will read it out of respect for your polite manners, unlike some who decided to start making things up and lie to make their points. Take care.

I just said I'll kick you for being lowest dps... ;) Below that you said with or without dps meter. And I wouldn't be lowest dps, you can be sure of that. ;) I think you're just being purposefully obtuse and disingenuous at this point. It's very clear what they meant. I don't understand how you could misconstrue someone saying "my squad my rules." Including an example where a dps meter would be used as "thanks for saying you don't need a dps meter". You're being willfully ignorant of the context of what they are saying to try and prove a point but it's adding absolutely nothing to this discussion that's dragging on as it's now just you arguing with almost everyone else in circles...Yes, it's clear what they meant, and it was nonsense. What do you expect back for that? He argues that he's free to do whatever he pleases with his group, because he makes up rules. Well, obviously. Of course he can do whatever he wants. Nothing stops him. But nothings stop me from not caring about his subjective rules. It wouldn't be a nice and reasonable thing from me to ignore his lfg, same as it wouldn't be a nice or reasonable thing for him to kick me simply because my char looks ugly for example. So, this argument make no sense and has nothing to do with dps meter being a good idea or not. I already said multiple times that I'm not here to argue whether someone has right to make their rules and lfg. I'm here to argue dps meter being harmful tool from my experience. You don't need dps meter to form an lfg and set your rules.

I just said I'll kick you for being lowest dps... ;) Below that you said with or without dps meter. And I wouldn't be lowest dps, you can be sure of that. ;)

No I haven't. And we never will. Because dps numbers are very different depending on what boss you're at.That's why people ask for a certain experience (within possibility of the given tools, such as LI ping etc.) so the people joining know what is expected from them.If you need a specific number spelled out for you, chances are you're not experienced enough to begin with. So you admit you have no good argument, you can subjectively decide anytime that someone in your party is not doing enough and kick them? Gotcha. While leading a squad I can decide to kick you whenever I want and for whatever reason I want. I never stated anything else.That's the only argument I need. You wrote something in chat i don't agree with? kickYou play ranger? kickYour char looks stupid? kickYou're last in dps? kick My squad, my rules. With or without dps meter.Thanks for confirming you don't need a dps meter. I knew you had it in you.

No I haven't. And we never will. Because dps numbers are very different depending on what boss you're at.That's why people ask for a certain experience (within possibility of the given tools, such as LI ping etc.) so the people joining know what is expected from them.If you need a specific number spelled out for you, chances are you're not experienced enough to begin with.So you admit you have no good argument, you can subjectively decide anytime that someone in your party is not doing enough and kick them? Gotcha.

Meanwhile, even at my level I do regular checks of damage logs to see how fights went post fight. Damage is most often the least of my interestes, and I rather focus on combat flow, positioning, boons as well as rotations both to understand why someone might have outperformed me or why something went wrong.That's fine. Do you need to see entire group damage for that? Other games have damage meters. Literally all of them. Some even have other addons which do nearly all the mechanics for them. Deadly Boss Mods is quit popular in WoW.Literally every single one? You sure?I haven't played every mmo obviously, but from what I've read and from what I've been told from friends who did play them (if I make a mistake, feel free to correct me): FFXIV didn't use one for ages and they were doing fine. They later caved in and allowed one, but it's supposedly not allowed to talk about dps meter in public chat.Blade and Soul: Has personal dps meter (which I'm fine with and wouldn't mind in gw2). Party dps meter is allowed only in raids and hardmode dungeons.BDO: NO dps meter.SWTOR: No dps meter. You can use some third party tool to pull out combat log for your own numbers.Archeage: No dps meter. Only personal damage logs. So, either they don't have dps meter or many didn't have them for yeaaaars and did completely fine without them.

You are also talking extremes. Nobody kicks 20k when top is 24k and you know it. "not contributing" is not doing just a bit less dps, it's about not doing enough dps to carry your weight (assuming 6 dps, everyone should aim for burning through approximately 16-17% of the boss' HP). If more than one player can do 20k+ dps while one person does <15k there is a slight problem (maybe missed rotation etc) but if they do <10k that means something is seriously wrong. Obviously mechanics play a huge part in this. Yeah, I literally mentioned that making exaggeration and being technical is easy and I demonstrated that. If people decide to use certain logic, then I'm allow to use it too.Also, that people should share dps farly equally to be considered contribution, that is purely your opinion and nothing else. Definition of contribution is clear.

If player A does 10 times the damage of player B (and if both are dps), player B is either training or leeching (in both cases, B is not contributing enough). Obviously I assume player B has no special role. A hardcore player does 10 times more dps than an "average" player, the keyword here is "average". The quote in the article I linked explicitly says "average player". Not "new player". There is nowhere in definition that would specify where the limit between contributing or not is. You just made it up, same as people tend to do when they use dps meter. With this logic, I could literally kick someone who does 20k damage, but that's 100 points of damage less than me, therefore, I could consider it not contributing. It's subjective. We could also take an example where let's say we have 5 man group - 1st does 20k, second does 21k, third does 22k, fourth does 23k and fifth does 24k. Average is 22k, therefore one with 20k and one with 21k would get kicked for being below average, thus not contributing in your logic. See, I can be super technical too and I can exaggerate too.You are taking every extreme cases to make your point. Hardcore player dealing 10x more damage. Some people say I'm making things up, but then they come up with crazy ideas and examples. That would mean that one does 2k damage and the other does 20k. Yeah, let's exaggerate like that to make the point, huh? And even 20k is pushing it, depending on the content. Like I said, I've ran dps meter for a while. Healers can do 2k or more. So don't be silly. Besides, in rare cases where someone would be doing 2k damage as dps role, you should be able to notice that without dps meter.

How would you know this without a dps meter? I am mostly asking because it isn't true. I've ran dps meter for some time to see how "helpful" it actually is and to see how consistent people are with their claims.How do people know if someone is absolute trash or not in games without dps meter? Skill, knowledge, seeing their tactics, positioning, choice of skills/utilities etc.

People get easily influenced and fall into mindset that most people are following. One day I play with this chill guildie, we do some smooth and fun runs, company is good and then... two weeks later all he can talk about is rotation and how much dps he can pull. Comes to the point where he start questioning my choice of weapons, because they are not current meta. It's just silly and sad. And I can still outdps him and have a lot more knowledge on mechanics, but that doesn't matter, because I won't be able to end up in parties with those people (well if it's guildie he'll make an exception usually out of politnes), because apparently they all think if you are not following meta or if you don't use dps meter to monitor yourself, you don't care about your performance and you are bad player.

It's not me who is deciding anything about anyones dps. It's certain people who use dps meter. I'm just joining the group and killing stuff. And if I do let's say 15k dps and top guy does 20k, he could decide that by his pure opinion, I'm not contributing enough and kicks me. (I've yet to see lfg that would says 20k required or something like that in almost 8 years of playing).

There are games where developers and players are very much against certain things like dps meters, mods, overlays, even afk farming, while other companies allow them. Why? Well, I guess some of them concluded it potentially provides more harm than good. And it certainly isn't something that would be very much needed to complete anything in game, so why risk it. And that's what my opinion is and why I'm against it. From my own experience, I see it doing more harm than good. I see people using it to insult others. I see people using it to kick other for not contributing enough, even though they are contributing enough to complete the instance. I see people trying to be cool boys and reach that sweet 40k, failing to realize they can't do it outside perfectly organized raid with certain party composition and builds - because it depends on the entire team. I see people caring for every single bit of dps so much, they die of basic aoes, because their eyes are glued on dps meter. I see people mistaking their high dps for being a skilled player, when they don't even understand certain mechanics/bosses, they just practiced their rotation and high dps is all that matters to them. And I could go on. I've played many online games. Maybe I was lucky, but gw2 is the first and only one I saw using dps meters (and it's the most casual game off all I played). In no other game, we had problems completing any content and having fun. DPS role was any class that was meant to dps. You played the class you enjoyed. Here in gw2, people make all classes just to have them at ready. And then they play the one that is currently meta and does most damage. I haven't seen this trend anywhere else, in all honesty. But, I digress - I just think dps meter is harmful for community. If it was self dps meter, sure, but as it is now, I don't see it being "helpful" enough to be worth it. But, hey, don't worry, looks like most people can't live without it, so I think you guys are safe.

A fucking what? You are straight up lying right now. When did I link arcdps to cheating and when did I "admit" I kicked anyone before last reward? You are just making shit up and lying. Stop replying to me, because this is certainly my last reply to you.

I didn't say it's a cheat. I'm using cheats as another example in different context, since people clearly have problems with cheats. Yes, my problem is with people in general, but that doesn't mean that giving them tools to promote their bad behavior should be a thing. I've seen enough nonsense that relates to dps meters by now, that I concluded it's a bad idea.

The main probrem you seem to have is with some people behaviors. Yes there are toxic people around and they would still be toxic without dps meter (probably even more based on the time before meters).That's why @Astralporing.1957 said it's a "byproduct". If you remove it from the game, it won't change a thing for you, some toxic will still join your party without reading the lfg and flame you for whatever reason...Just block them (you can also put a surname like "toxic guy"), report them if they insult, kick and move on. There will be toxic people whether you ban cheaters or not. So what's your point?

Yeah, and cheats are just a byproduct of people's inability to actually beat the game or face the challenge, so they help themselves with it to feel better or to annoy others.Afk farming is just byproduct of people wanting to get loot that they didn't earn.So, people shouldn't have a problem with cheats or afk farming itself. How is content itself a problem? You can complete all content without any kind of third party tools. Knowing mechanics is often a lot more important that extra 5k of dps. Problem is obviously in players. And if you give them tools to promote their behaviour and simplify it, then they are going to take it, just like if you allow them to exploit a mechanic or bug it, they are going to do it, even though it was not meant to be played that way.

It quite obviously provides not only opportunity to abuse it, but also a ton of profit. Just like any other tool in this very universe.I know, total vanity. You, offended casuals, dont care about reading and thinking about what veterans are trying to teach you on 7 pages already. Also knifes, scissors, wrenches, hammers, cars and bottles provide opportunity for people to abuse them and eventually kill other people.Lets ban all these tools, yes? Your pure logic That's hilarious. We are going into extremes then, huh? Cheats and bots are also utility. I guess we shouldn't ban them, with your logic. I can say with confidence that I am capable of utilizing knifes and cars without breaking any rules. How would someone who is using cheats or bots when playing gw2 play the game without breaking any rules? Well, look above. People think using taco for ability akin to wallhack in other games is not considered cheating.Plus, there are plenty of countermeasures that auto detect cheats in various games. No need for you to even misuse them or hurt anyone with them. But, let's play your game. Let's say I use bots to gather materials for me. I then use those materials to upgrade my personal guild hall that no one else has access to. I didn't break any laws or hurt anyone.Or even If I decided to donate those materials to new players, I wouldn't break any laws with that.

What is it then? That's like saying turning wallhack on is not cheating. Both show you something that you aren't suppose to see and wasn't meant to be seen that way, so you have an edge over others.This is how some people react to those who use taco. I just shared my experience, seeing other people who want to do the mission the regular way and they get discouraged. So how is that helpful? How did it help? He insulted us and we blocked him. At no point ever, in all the years I have played the game, I didn't hear anyone apologize for making a mistake or not making sense with his insults. People get triggered easily and then they feel like insulting others in order for them to feel better about themselves. That guy didn't learn anything that day. He had meter on because he told us, but he didn't explain how I'm doing bad dps. I assumed it was just "you are scrapper, if you would play meta class, you could do more damage" kinda logic, but who knows. This was "all welcome" lfg btw. I get a lot of such people. They just join, probably because they don't want to wait for proper lfg. If run goes smooth, they might not say anything, but as soon as something might go wrong, some people loose their shit, as if the world is suddenly collapsing, because someone died. So, yeah, that guy didn't learn anything and will do same thing again next time.