[Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP]

Hey @"Cal Cohen.2358" -- If you want to lower holo sustain, nerfing heat therapy is a good start. A second primary source of healing on holosmith comes from combo-ing the water fields from heal turret, as the water field lasts so long.

Adjusting the interaction holosmiths have with water fields would significantly lower the amount of sustain the class has, without damaging the fluidity of the class overall. This also allows holosmith to keep the little condition cleanse it has, as many condition based classes are hard counters to holosmith.

The following are blast finishers holo has access to:

1. Holographic Shockwave
2. Magnetic Inversion
3. Rocket Boots
4. Throw Mine
5. Heal Turret

The following are leap finishers holo has access to:

1. Jump Shot
2. Radiant Arc
3. Holo Leap

Yes, I am aware that engineer has more access to combo finishers, but seldom are they used in a PvP specific context. Laughs in Big Ol' Bomb.

Removing the leap finisher on holo 2 would lower healing by 1,320 * (0.2) health per use. Holos can do this twice, as the toolbelt skill for heal turret is also a (smol) water field. This way, the holosmith has to be in rifle to have access to a leap finisher, the same as the other 2 engineer specs.

Holographic Shockwave could stay a blast finisher, as 25% of max heat is pretty jarring for a ~1300 heal, but can also come in handy in situations you're willing to sacrifice heat for CC and a small AoE heal.

The other engineer heal skills aside AED are basically unusable. The Elixir H is arguably the worst healing ability in the game, and the toolbelt skill for the Exceed heal literally covers you in burning. Why would anyone run anything other than heal turret?

Keep in mind, nerfing heal turret would cripple engineer as a class rather than holosmith specifically. Scrapper is distanced from this by having an alternative heal skill (medic Gyro), but many times heal turret is still desired.

CheersDr. Clutch McSwagDaddy

Edit: Left out prot holo, Thanks @shadowpass.4236 :)

@shadowpass.4236 said:The Prot Holo build also has access to Rumble, Acid Bomb, and Detonate Thumper Turret as well.The build can do upwards of 6-8 or so leaps/blasts in a single water field iirc with most of them on a cycle time of less than 20 seconds.

The only thing here is that all engie specs have access to this, but it just adds on to holo sustain as well.

[Let's Talk About WvW Balance]

Glad to have to aboard @"Cal Cohen.2358"

I'm very excited to see the time to kill window addressed.

Another topic maybe up for discussion would be traits being so valuable that it renders other traits in the same traitline suboptimal or even not usable in comparison.

Just one example, the scourge grandmaster line. Also, I'm only referring to small-scale (3-8 or 9) and large scale ( 10+) fights here. No 1v1s or 2v2s

• Sand Savant is too good. Even when it was only 5 targets, the amount of area denial and pressure was just insane. You could make a choke insanely hot for little cost, and this increased your ability to generate downs. Amazing trait.

• Demonic Lore is good. Necromancers has plentiful access to torment, and this amps that up, and adds some burning. Good damage, but this is dependent on the group you're fighting. If they have heavy firebrands or a scrapper or 2, this trait doesn't add much value to your scourge's ability to do damage. Why would I take a trait that is only conditionally good?

• Feed from Corruption -- the meme counter to purity of purpose. Good trait, but again, suboptimal when it compares to the amount of downs you can generate and the area of damage you can hit with Sand Savant. Why would I take this over the previous 2? This to me almost seems like it could be a Major Master with an ICD built into it.

Having very strong trait synergies like this is good, as it allows classes to have distinct gameplay and very powerful, defined roles. But by having these insane traits with their massive flex modifications to gameplay leads other playstyles quickly dieing out and become suboptimal.

I believe looking at the synergies of traitlines classes deemed to be "too good" will (be one of many) answer why those classes are too good, and maybe open some creative ideas on how to address power creep and the time to kill. This could also be a way to really nail down the roles you guys on the balance team want classes to fill in competitive modes.

Cheers,Dr. Clutch McSwagDaddy

PS, with your big heavy elasticsearch backend -- it would be interesting to query and see what % of players take what traits on each class- If you have that data indexed -- because anyone who has used the Elastic stack knows that's the hardest part ?

Edit: @'d the correct account.

[Potential Future Balance Changes]

@Lazze.9870 said:

@DrClutchMcSwagDaddy.9072 said:

Ranger

• Long Range Shot: Reduce the damage range of this skill from 0.7-0.9 to 0.65-0.75 in WvW only.

I solo roam quite a lot. Taking 2v1 fights is a very fun challenge. Ranger, even after its nerfs, is still outrageously strong. You don’t have to play reactively as ranger. Just mash long range shot and rapid fire with one wolf pack and sick em (even after nerfs) melt minstrel firebrands, warriors, holosmiths, and scrappers. There is little to no response for a 14,000 damage long range shot. You cannot out range it on any class, or even put up a fight against it. It has become a degenerate meta, where zergs of rangers press 3 buttons and score massive amounts of damage.I’d like to see this change across ALL longbow skills. It is currently too easy to do incomparable amounts of damage at 1200 - 1900 range.

Just a bunch of nonsense. If you can't fight that gimmicky glass build, you're flat out bad. But something tells me your problem is being ganked by it (why else talk about how much you enjoy 1v2s), which is ridiculous.

And as per usual, completey ignoring what can be done to ranger to make it party focused for WvW. No no no no. Nerfs are all that is needed for the class that has pretty much been left out of WvW squads since the launch of the game.

Thanks for your valuable feedback. Can I practice against your ranger in some duels to get better? Please add my account :)

[Potential Future Balance Changes]

Here is my response to the proposed changes. I play all classes aside mesmer in sPvP and WvW. Sorry for the long post, just wanted to share my thoughts!

This is all solely from a WvW perspective. I play PvP, but in this post, I don't care about PvP or PvE. Only focus is on WvW.

Engineer

• Chemical Field: This skill is replaced by Detection Pulse (from the old Sneak Gyro elite toolbelt) as the toolbelt skill for Purge Gyro.Pros to this is we now have a direct counterplay to other sneak gyro comps, makes groups more able to hunt for mesmers and thieves hiding in keeps.Cons - Little less pressure for downs. This removes access to a meta zerg scrapper’s access to a poison field. Less poison bolts going out. Not a devastating loss.
• Purge Gyro: Reduce the number of cleansing pulses from 5 to 3 in WvW.Pros - Encourages a more responsive type of gameplay. I interpret this change as moving away from a “1-button-to-rule-them-all” kind of gameplay. A replacement for this would be elixir gun’s #3 - Fumigate, which is a burst condi cleanse for 5 people.Cons - Adding Detection pulse to this would mean scrappers would have to take it. Detection pulse is too good to leave behind.Would gameplay change with this? I don’t believe it would. I think people would still run it because of detection pulse. Solo / small groups would feel a much larger impact from this change, yet again hurting the roaming / havoc players.Suggested change - Purge gyro is too good. Moving from 5 condis to 3 condis feels like it would suffer too much. Perhaps 4 pulses would be more appropriate. This would still encourage potential alternatives, such as elixir gun’s #3 and #5, as well as the happy little Elixir C.
• Sneak Gyro: Increase the cooldown of this ability from 45 to 75 seconds in WvW.Pros - commanders and other groups would have to be more careful about using their stealth, rather than spamming it every minute.Cons - Yeah not much here. Sneak gyro is too good right now

Overall thoughts on engineer - Scrapper is too good right now. 100% meta for any comp, small havoc, medium squads, and large zergs. It perfectly fits everywhere, and is miles ahead of any other support spec. After these changes, it would still be good but need to play more carefully, as its sustain and utility would be hurt.

Guardian

• Sanctuary: Increase number of enemies that can be knocked back by this skill from 10 to 20 before it expires.Pros - BUILD VARIATION! This would make sanctuary much more viable, both offensively and defensively. Putting 3x 20 man sanctuaries in heavy chokes would cause commanders to play more carefully as well as have a place to hold in case of bad positioning.Cons - Not much hereWould game play change? Yes, I would take sanctuary more often. It could be a replacement for hallowed ground, merciful intervention, or contemplation of purity.
• Tome of Resolve, Chapter 2 - Radiant Recovery: The existing split from PvP of cleansing 2 conditions is brought to WvW as well. This ability would continue to cleanse 3 conditions in PvE.Pros - Not much hereCons - Firebrand’s condition cleanse is very limited. You have the very strong condition cleanses -- mantra of lore, Radiant recovery, and shining river. Other condition cleanses feel sub optimal or so situational that they aren’t worth running. Nerfing this ability would now make Tome of Resolve only have 3 “usable” abilities, #1, #4, and #5.Game play changes? I would only use abilities 1, 4, and 5 in firebrand tome 2. I believe this would hurt firebrand (as it is a nerf, lol)Suggestion - Consider adding a condition cleanse to Tome of Resolve - Chapter 3: Azure Sun. This would still nerf Radiant Recovery’s ability to have strong condition cleanse and burst healing, but wouldn’t take away from the guardian's ability to provide condition cleanses. This would also make Chapter 3: Azure Sun much more viable in fights, as it's not worth using in any kind of skirmish currently. Limited number of casts -- Only use abilities worth casting.
• Tome of Courage, Chapter 2 - Daring Challenge: This skill grants retaliation for 3 seconds instead of aegis.Overall good change. Fits better with the ability and provides a little bit more damage when used. Feelsgoodman
• Tome of Courage, Chapter 5 - Unbroken Lines: This skill no longer grants aegis or retaliation.I believe this is a good change. Unbroken Lines in INSANE as it currently exists, allowing for a 1 button massive boon overload for your subgroup. Large radius means uncoordinated groups still benefit from this ability as well, so nerfing the boon overload into just a stability overload feels like a fair change.Alternative -- Lower the radius instead of removing boons. This would allow for more coordinated groups to be able to have the massive benefit from Unbroken Lines if they stack tighter and play more closely as a team.

MesmerYeah I don't play this class, and never intend to.

Necromancer

• Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
• Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

I think this is a good change. If Feast of Corruption was just a boon strip, and not boon conversion, this change would be unwarranted. But this isn’t the case. In an ideal situation, a necro can hit 1 button, and put 15 random conditions on 5 enemies. That is a lot of pressure, as stability converts to fear, a pseudo stun. Lowering the boons converted would make this a more balanced ability across the board.I play a lot of condition scourge in sPvP -- and it feels good already in sPvP. Strong, but not insane.

• Sand Cascade: Reduce the barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP.
• Sand Flare: Reduced the barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW.Pro - This takes away from scourge’s ability to be a support and a main dps across all fight sizes.Cons - Heal scourge hurts from this. Although heal scourge is off meta for many groups, the nerfs to condition cleanses from Firebrand and Scrapper, players will begin to look for alternatives. Scourge has a large ability to cleanse conditions with a few abilities, and nerfing a heal scourge trait pushes away the possibility of heal scourge being strong in WvW

Ranger

• Long Range Shot: Reduce the damage range of this skill from 0.7-0.9 to 0.65-0.75 in WvW only.

I solo roam quite a lot. Taking 2v1 fights is a very fun challenge. Ranger, even after its nerfs, is still outrageously strong. You don’t have to play reactively as ranger. Just mash long range shot and rapid fire with one wolf pack and sick em (even after nerfs) melt minstrel firebrands, warriors, holosmiths, and scrappers. There is little to no response for a 14,000 damage long range shot. You cannot out range it on any class, or even put up a fight against it. It has become a degenerate meta, where zergs of rangers press 3 buttons and score massive amounts of damage.I’d like to see this change across ALL longbow skills. It is currently too easy to do incomparable amounts of damage at 1200 - 1900 range.

Why should I play anything but ranger when I can press 3 buttons and 3 shot any class at a range nobody can compete with? Degenerate gameplay.

Revenant

• Coalescence of Ruin: This skill would no longer deals increased damage with successive impacts; instead it deals damage equal to what was previously the middle impact damage. Damage remains split between game modes. A red warning rectangle visible to enemies has been added to this skill.Good change. CoR has a very low cooldown, and benefits from other damage traits in rev’s traitlines. This would lower the priority of CoR and encourage other abilities to be used more often.(Yay now I get to see a box around the 8k CoR!)
• Gaze of Darkness: This skill would reveal stealthed enemies up to 600 range away in addition to striking enemies within its 360 radius.Good way to deal with stealth. Many commanders rely too heavily on sneak gyro and mass invis, so being able to combat that is always welcomed.

I am just now starting to play warrior, so I don't know enough about the way the class plays to really comment about the changes.

Overall thoughts @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 -- Scrapper, firebrand, and scourge are required for group fights, and always have been. Continual small nerfs and tweaks like the ones proposed will slowly push the classes out of their own "Required" tier and become on par with classes not so loved -- Like ele, and most core specs. Ranger is still way overtuned, capable of (nearly) instantly killing every class from an unmatchable range.

Although I main engineer, holosmith, scrapper, and core condi, it sucks to see engie getting nerfed again, but scrapper is overtuned as it exists right now. Antitoxin runes + purge gyro is a synergy that only requires 1 button to activate. It's changes like these that give me (some) hope that Anet is watching how WvW fights are played out and genuinely want to take away the 1 button beats all mentality from WvW.

Cheers,Dr. Clutch