The Big PvP Revamp Update

[doozer.7063]

21 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I mostly agree but the problem with low skillfloor-high effective specs (if buffed like that) is that they will get to a higher rank for FAR less effort. So, on a high skill floor spec, you may be in gold 1, fighting many ''lower skilled'' players being carried by low skill floor specs. That simply makes the effort to reward ratios toxic AF, when the entire enemy team can have low skill floor, high effective specs. That already happens a lot in ranked now (minus the effectiveness), due to the bad matchmaking, enemy team consisting of core gaurd/willbender, power/scourge necro, SPB/bladesworn, bunker mes. All very over represented specs, and some are very much creeping on being way too effective for the effort, despite ceiling cap. Due to the current matchmaking, you can't get to a certain rank, where you can then avoid these toxic low skill matchups. I expect to die if I don't even attempt to dodge.. the avg gaurd, necro, warrior can, by design of their mechanics, face tank way too much damage. For example, a warrior stun breaking, then getting an added bonus of a 3 seconds of physical immunity, then by a full counter, then by spamming stuns.. lends itself to getting away with far less dodging. The other specs follow a similar pattern, for their own mechanical reasonings.

 

Ironically, I think DD thief is the biggest offender of being carried by low skill/low risk gameplay. The ability to avoid pvp, and just back cap, lets them win games that most other specs would simply lose 100%, on account of not having the pvp skill, thus dying in group/1v1s.. and not having the mobility to back cap all game, and escape being caught.

Also it feels sometimes for me like you mix up skill floor with ceiling and cap a bit (or i just misunderstand you) but overall we agree that the main problem is, that in GW2 bad and mediocre player can get carried too hard also in mid and higher tier and that good player barely get rewarded for playing builds being more skill intense. 

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 the best thing about all this is a ele/mesmer could actually "facetank" waaaays better than a warr or a Guardian (while ditch out ways better dmg at the same time) who meant to be the tank specs. And what i mean with "facetank" is if all of those classes are well played (also by facetank i truely mean eat dmg but also evade to get hit). I mean to be this tanky warr needs to Play like full bunkery.....

Edited August 10, 2023 by Myror.7521

[Flowki.7194]

21 hours ago, doozer.7063 said:

Also it feels sometimes for me like you mix up skill floor with ceiling and cap a bit (or i just misunderstand you) but overall we agree that the main problem is, that in GW2 bad and mediocre player can get carried too hard also in mid and higher tier and that good player barely get rewarded for playing builds being more skill intense. 

Yes, we are agreeing on the same thing.

 

9 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 the best thing about all this is a ele/mesmer could actually "facetank" waaaays better than a warr or a Guardian (while ditch out ways better dmg at the same time) who meant to be the tank specs. And what i mean with "facetank" is if all of those classes are well played (also by facetank i truely mean eat dmg but also evade to get hit). I mean to be this tanky warr needs to Play like full bunkery.....

Have you played elementalist around good players? Weaver can setup as bunker, and can face tank thanks to shielding, but it litterally cannot kill anything. It does not have stuns like SPB does, so weaver brings nothing to the table. Nobody plays bunker ele specs becuase they are simple ineffective (outside of wvw zdrgs I guess), the specs that are used in sPVP cannot face tank, at all. The OP condi cata could facetank, but thats not all ele, and it was thankfully nerfed, although they kitten many other ele specs in the proccess....

 

Power necro can face tank while spamming AOE, gets a second life bar with +mitigation +stability for more face tanking while doing +dmg. That is before their CC and wurm.

 

Willbender/core gaurd basically get free blocks, and high natural mitigation from core mechanics/armor. Willbender is one of the most horrible melee DPS to fight, becuase it can TP to you with stability, smash 12345, and can face tank most of what you through back at it, while you need to dodge (on a spec with low passive mitigation).

 

Warrior is much the same as willbender, especially SPB. It has high natural defense, Enduring+lesser is 5 seconds of face tank while being able to attack back, full counter, another face tank, and a long block, if you then take some damage, you have stuns, which heals +stops you taking more damage, and a heal that gives health byu litterally face tanking on purpose. The warrior almost by design, depends on dodges far less than most when in optimal range. Thats part of why its skillfloor is so low (effectiveness aside), becuase many specs require dodges or they will simply die in a 3 second burst window. To avoid those bursts, means you have to actaully understand how ALL classes work, and time dodges at the correct time = much higher skill floor. That is one of the reasons why it took me so long to even get remotely good on power cata, (and I still was not that good) 13k hp with nothing but active mitigation that has to be used at the exact right time.

 

Even hammer cata cannot facetank, if you miss combos and dodges its over, try it. I've played all the specs I am critisising, it does not serve me to be bias.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 And still ele rn is good played one of the most facetanky class the Game has to offer..... . And yes I said good played cause i mean in high Divisions not Just gold/Silver/Bronze. With face tank i also do not mean you do not need skill..... what I mean with it is simply it could eat every single dmging skill more easy than any or at least most other classes.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Myror.7521

[Flowki.7194]

17 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 And still ele rn is good played one of the most facetanky class the Game has to offer..... . And yes I said good played cause i mean in high Divisions not Just gold/Silver/Bronze. With face tank i also do not mean you do not need skill..... what I mean with it is simply it could eat every single dmging skill more easy than any or at least most other classes.

Can you give me specific examples of ele facetank that is not a meme bunker build? I gave you plenty of examples for warrior.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 ye i could also say like a thousand builds that are meme tank warr Builds xD. Every class could gain some Tank Builds ^^. Also warr need to be at least a bit tanky otherwise it would be hard useless. 

[Flowki.7194]

2 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 ye i could also say like a thousand builds that are meme tank warr Builds xD. Every class could gain some Tank Builds ^^. Also warr need to be at least a bit tanky otherwise it would be hard useless. 

The SPB build I play with is not a meme, and I don't depend on dodge with it near as much as on any serious ele spec. I do dodge on it of course, but as said, most of it's mechanics actually want you to face tank, while stuns weaved in between all that mean you don't need to dodge, aside from if the player has stability and you have no 0 0 0 0 0 0 left.

 

What is an example of a high level ele face tank? I played power cata and tempest to gold 3, where I often faced plat level players, I didn't see any ele face tankers. Sometimes you can deliberately face tank if you know your burst is higher than theirs, but on power cata, thats not a lot of specs.. you will not out burst a scrapper, chrono etc with no CC or mitigation/dodges of their initial jump. I even played a glass cannon off meta virsion of power cata that had a lot more damage, but that came at the cost of more sustain, meaning even less face tank potential, making the spec a roaming +1, and nothing more.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Flowki.7194