[Request] Turn (some) Axe Virtuoso attacks into blade attacks

[REMagic.8937]

Dear Arenanet!

I've had a lot of fun playing the Weaponmaster Training on my Virtuoso. Offhand Shield is a pretty nice addition for when you just want to be a little more defensive once in a while.

However, I am less infatuated with the Mainhand Axe option. It turns out this is balanced around Mirage not only having an Axe trait that improves all Axe skills, but also axe clones having really good autoattacks (the reason for that is a bit complicated, but essentially they inflict conditions which then use the player's condition damage and expertise stat. This makes them one of very few clones that actually contribute significant damage). While on Mirage, summoning three clones and just autoattacking on Axe already yields very respectable DPS (actually around the same as Dagger autohits on Virtuoso does!), a Virtuoso attacking with an Axe does not even half of that damage! And Axe 2 is not much better than that!

In fact, this makes it so that for any Condition Virtuoso build, it's always a straight up mistake to wield an Axe. Dagger 1 is strictly better than Axe Autohits, Dagger 2 is strictly better than Axe 2 (actually it does 2.5x the damage and has half the cast time! So its effectiveness is five times higher!). In fact, Dagger Autoattacks are also just better than Axe 2...

Only Axe 3 is a decent skill for Virtuoso, and it's the only Axe ability that is (slightly) better than autoattacking on Dagger. Axe 3 can be left as is, since it already has a variation that lets it stack additional confusion per stocked blade (I really liked to see that much thought put into it!), But here's my suggestion:  You could add the "Blade" attribute to all Axe autohits (Lacerating Chop, Ethereal Chop, Mirror Strikes) and Axe 2 (Lingering Thoughts).

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mithril_Axe_Blade

You see, Axes do have a blade, so it would not be out of order to add this Blade attribute. What would that accomplish?

It would allow a Condition Virtuoso to use the trait Jagged Mind to apply additional bleeding if those Axe skills strike critically. As of the most recent PvE update, it would add 4.5 seconds of bleeding to each inflicted critical hit. When built to maximize critical strike chance, a Condition Virtuoso's Axe autoattack chain would then be, on average, nearly as good as autoattacking on Dagger (around 9% worse still, and it's also melee and not quite as good at cleaving.), and Axe 2 (Lingering Thoughts) would be around the power level of Axe 3 (still nowhere near Dagger 2's potency). 

This would turn the Axe into a decent melee weapon for Virtuoso; still not better than Dagger, when compared skill by skill, but a viable option for those who prefer a melee playstyle over ranged blade-flinging (or maybe are tired of dying to reflects :D). 

So please, Arenanet. You have a good opportunity here to turn a largely unused option for PvE into something good by just adding that Blade attribute to the autoattacks and to Axe 2. I know you like to do this where it makes sense, as you already have done it for skills like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirror_Blade The Axe skills would be completely logical spots to add some more blade attacks to the Virtuoso's toolkit. I assume this wasn't done when Virtuoso released because you never thought Virtuoso would be getting Axe anyway. But now would be a good time to add that, and increase diversity of weapon options.

Yours sincerely

- REMagic

Edited September 28, 2023 by REMagic.8937

[Geronmy.3298]

Absolutely not. The only way they could get away with it is to remove Jagged mind, at that point they would be better to delete Mirage entirely.

[REMagic.8937]

Just now, Geronmy.3298 said:

Absolutely not. The only way they could get away with it is to remove Jagged mind, at that point they would be better to delete Mirage entirely.

Why do you think that? I can do the numbers for you here (standard fully buffed condi virtuoso build against a target with 25 vulnerability):

Dagger Autoattacking: 3 Autoattacks take 1.32 seconds and inflict 21386 damage, or 16201 DPS (per second of cast time. It's the damage you would do if you only autoattacked).
Dagger 2: Takes 0.44 seconds and inflicts 23598 damage (53633 DPS if you could spam it with no cooldown :D)

Axe Skills:

First Autohit: Takes 0.44 seconds, currently deals  2553 damage (5803 DPS)
Second Autohit: Takes 0.56 seconds, currently deals 2428 damage (4337 DPS)
Third Autohit: Takes 0.72 seconds, currently deals 9539 damage (13249 DPS)
Autochain (all these three in sequence): Takes 1.72 seconds, currently deals 14506 damage (8434 DPS).
Axe 2: Takes 0.92 seconds, currently deals 9410 damage (10229 DPS)
Axe 3: Takes 1 second, currently deals 18739 damage (18739 DPS)

With my suggestion, assuming 100% crit chance build:

First Autohit: Takes 0.44 seconds, would deal 5257 damage (11949 DPS)
Second Autohit: Takes 0.56 seconds, would deal 5132 damage (9165 DPS)
Third Autohit: Takes 0.72 seconds, would deal 14948 damage (20761 DPS)
Autochain (all these three in sequence): Takes 1.72 seconds, would deal 25304 damage (14712 DPS)
Axe 2: Takes 0.92 seconds, would deal 17523 damage (19047 DPS)
Axe 3: Unchanged, still 18739 damage (18739 DPS).

As you can see, EVEN WITH THE BLADE ATTRIBUTE, the Axe skills would still be leading to slightly weaker performance, the autoattack chain would be weaker. It would even be melee, it wouldn't be pierce, it would generate fewer blades. Dagger would still be the best weapon choice. But Axe would no longer be literally half the damage output, it would be just a viable option.

So, tell me again - why "absolutely not"? What nerfs do you see coming because of it? Worst case, ArenaNet could simply remove the attribute again if something breaks in a major way, but I don't see this as dangerous.

[Geronmy.3298]

3 hours ago, REMagic.8937 said:

Why do you think that? I can do the numbers for you here (standard fully buffed condi virtuoso build against a target with 25 vulnerability):

Dagger Autoattacking: 3 Autoattacks take 1.32 seconds and inflict 21386 damage, or 16201 DPS (per second of cast time. It's the damage you would do if you only autoattacked).
Dagger 2: Takes 0.44 seconds and inflicts 23598 damage (53633 DPS if you could spam it with no cooldown :D)

Axe Skills:

First Autohit: Takes 0.44 seconds, currently deals  2553 damage (5803 DPS)
Second Autohit: Takes 0.56 seconds, currently deals 2428 damage (4337 DPS)
Third Autohit: Takes 0.72 seconds, currently deals 9539 damage (13249 DPS)
Autochain (all these three in sequence): Takes 1.72 seconds, currently deals 14506 damage (8434 DPS).
Axe 2: Takes 0.92 seconds, currently deals 9410 damage (10229 DPS)
Axe 3: Takes 1 second, currently deals 18739 damage (18739 DPS)

With my suggestion, assuming 100% crit chance build:

First Autohit: Takes 0.44 seconds, would deal 5257 damage (11949 DPS)
Second Autohit: Takes 0.56 seconds, would deal 5132 damage (9165 DPS)
Third Autohit: Takes 0.72 seconds, would deal 14948 damage (20761 DPS)
Autochain (all these three in sequence): Takes 1.72 seconds, would deal 25304 damage (14712 DPS)
Axe 2: Takes 0.92 seconds, would deal 17523 damage (19047 DPS)
Axe 3: Unchanged, still 18739 damage (18739 DPS).

As you can see, EVEN WITH THE BLADE ATTRIBUTE, the Axe skills would still be leading to slightly weaker performance, the autoattack chain would be weaker. It would even be melee, it wouldn't be pierce, it would generate fewer blades. Dagger would still be the best weapon choice. But Axe would no longer be literally half the damage output, it would be just a viable option.

So, tell me again - why "absolutely not"? What nerfs do you see coming because of it? Worst case, ArenaNet could simply remove the attribute again if something breaks in a major way, but I don't see this as dangerous.

Nothing more than i hate Virt, specially condi virt and i hate even more that Anet leans to pigeonhole it into the definitive dps spec for mesmer overall, neglecting Mirage an doing questionable changes to Chrono that made little to no sense while Virt runs rampant on every content.

Nothing to do with you, i just can't fathom any other buff to any aspect of Virt even if it's meaningless while the spec that is supposed to bring the Axe still has bugs that Virt will not experience.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

i feel like this is just sidestepping the bigger picture where condi virt struggles to use any other weapon other than dagger for dps, since clones are able to output notable damage both through regular autohits and sharper images on top of that which virt doesnt have access to

id point out that this is also mostly a pain point on the side with clones (especially for condi), because clone management is unintuitive, clunky and experiences frequent feelsbad moments when clones simply fail to function (mistiming/pathing/getting destroyed/etc)

id rather propose that clone condi output through autos and sharper images be shifted back on to the mesmers weapon skills (and phantasms). that way, condi virt isnt so disadvantaged by not having clones, while condi not-virt suffers less from needing to manage them