Reduce WvW Guild Cap from 500 to 200

[ConorRhysT.3819]

World Restructuring is great, I've enjoyed the game much more than I have in previous years.

In my opinion, the next step would be to reduce WvW guild cap from 500 to 200.

There are still a few instances of people trying to hold on to the Server World Stagnation out of habit / routine.

We break that up, we are good to go.

[Riba.3271]

Wait until you get weaker team with almost no voice comms or players in your timezone.

Also server worlds stagnated because Full status did nothing to stop transfer: People just transferred to links & higher tier servers had high chance of facing lower tier ones every relinking. Ideal system is old system but not to have links or too many worlds.

Edited July 6 by Riba.3271

[ConorRhysT.3819]

13 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

Wait until you get weaker team with almost no voice comms or players in your timezone.

Also server worlds stagnated because Full status did nothing to stop transfer: People just transferred to links & higher tier servers had high chance of facing lower tier ones every relinking. Ideal system is old system but not to have links or too many worlds.

Yeah, but with the dying population of the game in general (It is 12 years old) - The new system is aimed to make things feel fresh & as LARGE and populated as possible.

I think it did that, but having 500 man guilds is counter productive to the idea. 

What you say is right - having single servers is the best solution.. but then they would need to:

1. Merge all FR servers
2. Merge all DE servers
3. Have 2/3 tiers

 

And just imagine having 2 or 3 tiers, it would feel WAY more dead. Thats not the point of restructuring.

[ConorRhysT.3819]

53 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

Wait until you get weaker team with almost no voice comms or players in your timezone.

Also server worlds stagnated because Full status did nothing to stop transfer: People just transferred to links & higher tier servers had high chance of facing lower tier ones every relinking. Ideal system is old system but not to have links or too many worlds.

And the team I am on is very weak, but I create the content & also encourage people to command / teach voice commanding etc - without doing so, we would have only 2 commanders.

Edited July 7 by ConorRhysT.3819

[Riba.3271]

13 minutes ago, ConorRhysT.3819 said:

Yeah, but with the dying population of the game in general (It is 12 years old) - The new system is aimed to make things feel fresh & as LARGE and populated as possible.

? How does worse system accomplish bring more players? Lot of the playerbase played to build their server, climb tiers or gather score for it. All of those players will be gone, and only stacker guild huumpaduumpas fighting 2 daily-doing rangers to take a garrison or only logging in when enemy has players in discord will be left.

13 minutes ago, ConorRhysT.3819 said:

What you say is right - having single servers is the best solution.. but then they would need to:

1. Merge all FR servers
2. Merge all DE servers
3. Have 2/3 tiers

No, WvW will be fine with EU having 4 tiers. There were several never-queued unlinked servers before Restructuring already, so obviously there isn't space for 6th tier. Now since the solo server system will be massively better than previous or current sytem, maybe 5 tiers will be populated since playerbase will go up. So either 4 or 5 tiers will do fine. Having 1 SP, max 2 DE and max 2 FR servers is fine. Even if they're overpopulated, it doesn't matter because they'll be fighting other overpopulated servers.

Regarding NA, I have no clue. 4 Tiers? 3 Tiers?

Edited July 7 by Riba.3271

[ConorRhysT.3819]

Just now, Riba.3271 said:

? How does worse system accomplish bring more players? Lot of the playerbase played to build their server, climb tiers or gather score for it. All of those players will be gone, and only stacker guild huumpaduumpas fighting 2 daily-doing rangers to take a garrison will be left.

No, WvW will be fine with EU having 4 tiers. There were several never queued unlinked servers before Restructuring already, so obviously there isn't space for 6th tier. Now since the solo server system will be massively better than previous or current sytem, maybe 5 tiers will be populated since playerbase will go up. Having 1 SP, max 2 DE and max 2 FR servers is fine. Even if they're overpopulated, it doesn't matter because they'll be fighting other overpopulated servers.

Regarding NA, I have no clue. 4 Tiers? 3 Tiers?

What team are you on?

[ConorRhysT.3819]

3 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

? How does worse system accomplish bring more players? Lot of the playerbase played to build their server, climb tiers or gather score for it. All of those players will be gone, and only stacker guild huumpaduumpas fighting 2 daily-doing rangers to take a garrison or only logging in when enemy has players in discord will be left.

Its about the consistency & quality of players in a competitive game mode?

500 active & skilled players, is surely better than 2000 PvE people just there for easy tags.

I worked a lot on building player bases back when servers where a thing, and the amount of people who told me "I can't use a build template because I need it for Fractals" - these are the people that are now likely to drop out of the game mode, and honestly - I don't see that as a bad thing. 

 

Consistent, focused players - makes challenging and focused content. Which is what the WvW crowd wants?

[Riba.3271]

2 minutes ago, ConorRhysT.3819 said:

3 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

? How does worse system accomplish bring more players? Lot of the playerbase played to build their server, climb tiers or gather score for it. All of those players will be gone, and only stacker guild huumpaduumpas fighting 2 daily-doing rangers to take a garrison will be left.

No, WvW will be fine with EU having 4 tiers. There were several never queued unlinked servers before Restructuring already, so obviously there isn't space for 6th tier. Now since the solo server system will be massively better than previous or current sytem, maybe 5 tiers will be populated since playerbase will go up. Having 1 SP, max 2 DE and max 2 FR servers is fine. Even if they're overpopulated, it doesn't matter because they'll be fighting other overpopulated servers.

Regarding NA, I have no clue. 4 Tiers? 3 Tiers?

What team are you on?

I am currently on Temple of Febe, and while we have large numerous alliance with several guilds (PYRE, MADS, HOPE), we always cap out at 30-35 people in public voice tags, and might rarely have 2nd map queued with extremely small q on guild raid times. Anyways, the matchmaking has been garbage where we have been facing servers with 4 full maps while we can manage only 1, and several enemy servers that can't form a single group.

[ConorRhysT.3819]

1 minute ago, Riba.3271 said:

I am currently on Temple of Febe, and while we have large numerous alliance with several guilds (PYRE, MADS, HOPE), we always cap out at 30-35 people in public voice tags, and might rarely have 2nd map queued with extremely small q on guild raid times. Anyways, the matchmaking has been garbage where we have been facing servers with 4 full maps while we can manage only 1, and several enemy servers that can't form a single group.

I am on Gyala Hatcher - we just fought Temple of Febe,

We rarely get 30+ in public voice, unless we force merge guild runs together.. which means:
1. Less lag
2. More dynamic content around the map
3. Better skilled play using map and environment

I am currently seeing 50 man zergs and lumbering fools at the moment. The meta feels good for zerg breaking.

[ConorRhysT.3819]

7 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

I am currently on Temple of Febe, and while we have large numerous alliance with several guilds (PYRE, MADS, HOPE), we always cap out at 30-35 people in public voice tags, and might rarely have 2nd map queued with extremely small q on guild raid times. Anyways, the matchmaking has been garbage where we have been facing servers with 4 full maps while we can manage only 1, and several enemy servers that can't form a single group.

P.S - Was expecting PYRE to be MUCH stronger! Same as THOR... I was expecting HUGE over meta, over tuned blobs. I shouldn't be able to be pulling 5 people from a 30/40 man voice stack with spectral grasp. People sleeping.

Edited July 7 by ConorRhysT.3819

[Riba.3271]

5 minutes ago, ConorRhysT.3819 said:

I worked a lot on building player bases back when servers where a thing, and the amount of people who told me "I can't use a build template because I need it for Fractals" - these are the people that are now likely to drop out of the game mode, and honestly - I don't see that as a bad thing. 

 

Consistent, focused players - makes challenging and focused content. Which is what the WvW crowd wants?

If you want numerous population of such people, it is necessary you have time and resources to reach, and get to know people. If they speak different language and you only have 1 month for them to miraculously spot discord adress in teamchat, that you're sending once a day, they will probably never get to even try to play with focused group.

This is why having solo servers is great: You can do training raids and have designated people running community guilds, promoting discord and reaching out to new players. What is the incentive to reach out to new player, that will be in different server every 4 weeks? None. But if you're most likely stuck with them until end of time, then players will try to reach out to them and teach them how to play WvW properly: join discord, use WvW builds and it is more serious than just doing dailies. This is why consistant solo servers are great: You can build them as you want, or transfer to one that suits you better if they're hopeless case. Even if you lack numbers, you can always train some newbie monkeys.

Edited July 7 by Riba.3271

[ConorRhysT.3819]

6 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

You can do training raids and have designated people running community guilds, promoting discord and reaching out to new players. 

Likely a stupid thing to say, from someone with 14k hours gameplay.

But training is a thing of the past? Surely?

There are 30 min videos of every single build, by extremely knowledgeable people.  With 3 celestials + 1 minstrel per subgroup for Zerg.

And Celestial for roaming, its not an overly challenging game anymore. I am sure, that anyone - even 13/14 year olds could pick this game up naturally without been hand-held these days. Its the easiest its been. And honestly, the idea of been a "renegade" without a guild is appealing.

Edited July 7 by ConorRhysT.3819

[ConorRhysT.3819]

These "Alliance Communities" are hindering game play, and hampering peoples progession. That is my opinion on it. 

Edited July 7 by ConorRhysT.3819

[Riba.3271]

6 minutes ago, ConorRhysT.3819 said:

But training is a thing of the past? Surely?

People start from nothing, and they even have wrong settings such as not having locked ground target at maximum range, maximized their camera or hotkeyd their skills. Even some of the most famous guild leaders, were streamed of clicking their skills with mouse. Training is absolutely necessary to get basics down like stripping boons before CC, and not other way around. Surely you have witnessed massive squads with 10 necros getting 0 pulls, when you yourself can pull 1-2 people consistantly. That is evidence from skipping basic training.

You can have 50 people on voice and proper builds having been in several hundred fights, but they still don't understand basic concepts of what follows up after removing stability.

Edited July 7 by Riba.3271

[ConorRhysT.3819]

3 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

People start from nothing, and they even have wrong settings such as not having locked ground target at maximum range, maximized their camera or hotkeyd their skills. Even some of the most famous guild leaders, were streamed of clicking their skills with mouse. Training is absolutely necessary to get basics down like stripping boons before CC, and not other way around. Surely you have witnessed massive squads with 10 necros getting 0 pulls, when you yourself can pull 1-2 people consistantly. That is evidence from skipping basic training.

Just imagine, a 15 min new player experience before people step foot into WvW.

Would solve everything!

Not going to happen, but back to the topic of "training" - if guilds where smaller, guilds and communities would focus more on training and improving the quality of their players than stacking numbers.

So my original post stands to reason.

[Riba.3271]

1 minute ago, ConorRhysT.3819 said:

5 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

People start from nothing, and they even have wrong settings such as not having locked ground target at maximum range, maximized their camera or hotkeyd their skills. Even some of the most famous guild leaders, were streamed of clicking their skills with mouse. Training is absolutely necessary to get basics down like stripping boons before CC, and not other way around. Surely you have witnessed massive squads with 10 necros getting 0 pulls, when you yourself can pull 1-2 people consistantly. That is evidence from skipping basic training.

Just imagine, a 15 min new player experience before people step foot into WvW.

Would solve everything!

Not going to happen, but back to the topic of "training" - if guilds where smaller, guilds and communities would focus more on training and improving the quality of their players than stacking numbers.

So my original post stands to reason.

Yea, but what you and world resturcturing is doing is lowering numbers that WvW is available to. While you are probably living under assumption that you will still get action at primetime, then what about other timezones or unlucky matchups with no enemies? If there are no enemies 2 hours before primetime, won't that timezone die and players get progressively worse and worse as WvW is limited to only primetime hours?

Now of course new players can improve their mechanics and class knowledge in sPvP instead, but it is a lot to ask for a new player to want to apply to primetime guild and like grinding sPvP.

[ConorRhysT.3819]

51 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

Yea, but what you and world resturcturing is doing is lowering numbers that WvW is available to. While you are probably living under assumption that you will still get action at primetime, then what about other timezones or unlucky matchups with no enemies? If there are no enemies 2 hours before primetime, won't that timezone die and players get progressively worse and worse as WvW is limited to only primetime hours?

Now of course new players can improve their mechanics and class knowledge in sPvP instead, but it is a lot to ask for a new player to want to apply to primetime guild and like grinding sPvP.

I don't live under this assumption at all, I personally dislike prime-time content over most other content. I find mono-blob fighting dull and mindless. (Although, I have and will run 50+ man voice squads for reset successfully).

I created content the other morning, by capping a T3 keep with 8 people on EBG and holding it for 4 hours. (The cap was also very sweaty)

Which included:
1. Co-ordination of camp maintenance. (To tier the keep as fast as possible)

2. Defence of T3 SMC

3. Defence of T3 HBL keep

4. Fighting 2x as many people using siege we built and tactics gained by manning camps to tier up quickly

We had 4 separate subgroups with different roles.
 

My primary fun, used to be trying to combat Piken Squares morning squad - by using strategies and tactics that new we where out-numbered 2/1. 
 

The current setup of World Restructuring with 500 guild cap (And what solo servers) would do, is lower the possibility of that sort of dynamic and engineered content in place of mono-blobbing. 

WvW is a very smart game mode, with lots of interesting mechanics allowing smart play. But its just devolved into Zerg play. If we bring back the intricacies of map play, strategy and objective defence - the issue of "Keybinds" and "Settings" will solve themselves, because people will learn naturally through a variety of content? 

 

 

Edited July 7 by ConorRhysT.3819

[ConorRhysT.3819]

7 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

Yea, but what you and world resturcturing is doing is lowering numbers that WvW is available to. While you are probably living under assumption that you will still get action at primetime, then what about other timezones or unlucky matchups with no enemies? If there are no enemies 2 hours before primetime, won't that timezone die and players get progressively worse and worse as WvW is limited to only primetime hours?

Now of course new players can improve their mechanics and class knowledge in sPvP instead, but it is a lot to ask for a new player to want to apply to primetime guild and like grinding sPvP.

Regarding sPvP, Everyone who is under-performing in WvW, should play a season of ranked sPvP and get slapped for 30 days.

When they come back to WvW, they will kite better, damage better, be able to target focus & know objective importance.

[Riba.3271]

8 minutes ago, ConorRhysT.3819 said:

WvW is a very smart game mode, with lots of interesting mechanics allowing smart play. But its just devolved into Zerg play. If we bring back the intricacies of map play, strategy and objective defence - the issue of "Keybinds" and "Settings" will solve themselves, because people will learn naturally through a variety of content? 

Yes, siege and objective upgrading balance is bad: (boon golems, shield gens, weak walls, weak siege vs siege damage, extremely fast castle/keep upgrading), The fact that only 1 side has desertborders and 2 sides have alpine borderlands is also problematic for supposedly competitive gamemode.

But mostly strategy around objectives is dying because worlds don't exist anymore. After all WvW is only about personal fun anymore, and there is nothing greater to fight for. Trying to get people to play for score with current server system is akin to asking for an atheist to go for an crusade. Imagine if USA and Canada went to war but territories (teams in WvW case) were reset in every 4 weeks. Then it is pointless to capture any territory and it is just about killing people, right? So worlds, which stand for stable teams, are mandatory for WvW or its matchmaking to function.

Edited July 7 by Riba.3271

[ConorRhysT.3819]

7 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

Yes, siege and objective upgrading balance is bad: (boon golems, shield gens, weak walls, weak siege vs siege damage, extremely fast castle/keep upgrading), The fact that only 1 side has desertborders and 2 sides have alpine borderlands is also problematic for supposedly competitive gamemode.

But mostly strategy around objectives is dying because worlds don't exist anymore. After all WvW is only about personal fun anymore, and there is nothing greater to fight for. Trying to get people to play for score with current server system is akin to asking for an atheist to go for an crusade.

I mean, I find the balance of siege / tactics / walls okay.

The 55% for repair is over-kill, if it was 35% that would be perfect. Other than that, no complains. 

Its challenging, but its possible - especially with knowledge. 

[ConorRhysT.3819]

What I don't find okay, its 11pm zone-blobs of guilds, with 2 zergs on 2 different maps (Referring to RG here) at 11pm.

 

[ConorRhysT.3819]

Which again, would be fixed by my original suggestion!

[Riba.3271]

5 minutes ago, ConorRhysT.3819 said:

Its challenging, but its possible - especially with knowledge. 

The thing is, it really isn't challenging:

1) Capturing objectives: Use guild golems and shield gens. Guaranteed to get into lord room with any group that has at least 10 people. Walls are paper, golems are almost free, and quickness is massive damage boost.

2) Defending: Can't do anything about above. Protection+ quickness golems can tank 2 trebs and still get in. Just cloud at lord room with extra stats, and you win overtime.

3) Upgrading: Extremely fast, get SM or Bay to T3 in less than hour.

4) Defending camps: Easy af, just bring minstrel and you never die.

5) Escorting dolyaks: Just do same as above and dolyak will never die since it has 90% damage reduction.

Edited July 7 by Riba.3271

[ConorRhysT.3819]

Just now, Riba.3271 said:

The thing is, it really isn't challenging:

1) Capturing objectives: Use guild golems and shield gens. Guaranteed to get into lord room with any group that has at least 10 people. Walls are paper, golems are almost free, and quickness is massive damage boost.

2) Defending: Can't do anything about above. Protection+ quickness golems can tank 2 trebs and still get in.

3) Upgrading: Extremely fast, get SM or Bay to T3 in less than hour.

4) Defending camps: Easy af, just bring minstrel and you never die.

5) Escorting dolyaks: Just do same as above and dolyak will never die since it has 90% damage reduction.

So your main issue is Golems...

As an original Aurora Gladian which pioneered the Golem Rush (with Golem Rushes of 30+ golems)... I also never use Golems.

They are no fun. 

 

Regarding defending camps, some of the camp fights we had - where incredible. 

[ConorRhysT.3819]

Anyway, I dunno - WvW is better now than ever.

Just break up kitten alliance guilds like RG and WsR (both making gameplay worse), etc - and it'll be even better,

Edited July 7 by ConorRhysT.3819