[Elite Suggestion] Vanguard (main-hand shield version)

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

Theme: a warrior focused on rushing at the crowds of enemies, scattering them around and focusing on one single enemy to occupy it and kill it while at the same time being defensive and quite mobile. A warrior focused on defense and disabling one enemy practically eliminating it from the fight.

Main builds:1) Tank anti-range build (main build)2) Tank anti-condition build (main build)3) Condition build (off build)

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Adept Minor Trait (Single Unit Army)Unlock Shield for your main-hand and allow you to use Brawl abilities.Grant new F2 ability.

Adept Major Trait LineMajor Trait 1 (Shield Against Danger)Take 5% less damage from projectiles while wielding a shield. Gain 100 additional toughness while wielding two shields.Major Trait 2 (Unbreakable Immunity)Take 10% less damage from damaging conditions.Major Trait 3 (Dangerous Warfare)When you inflict a damaging condition, then also inflict 1 stack of vulnerability for 10 sec.

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Master Minor Trait (Dive into the Front-line)Gain 5 sec of superspeed when you enter combat. Resets when you use one of your bursts.

Master Major Trait LineMajor Trait 4 (Juggernaut of Steel)Disabling an enemy will grant you 3 sec of protection (cooldown: 4 sec). Increase your toughness by 3%.Major Trait 5 (Immunity Rush)Using one of your Brawl abilities will grant you 2 sec of resistance.Major Trait 6 (Biological Warfare)Deal 80 (scales with condition damage) direct damage every time you inflict a damaging condition.

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Grandmaster Minor Trait (Beatdown)Disabling an enemy will grant you 4 stacks of might for 6 sec. Cooldown: 4 sec.

Grandmaster Major Trait LineMajor Trait 7 (Mirror Fortress)Your F2 now reflect projectiles. Gain 2 stacks of stability for 4 sec when you finish channeling F2.Major Trait 8 (Golden Fortress)Your F2 now reflect conditions. Gain 4 sec of resistance when you finish channeling F2.Major Trait 9 (Walking Fortress)You now can move while channeling F2.

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Shield 1 (Grand Slam)Slam a target with your shield dealing damage to it and grant protection to you if this ability hits.

• Casting time: 3/4 sec
• Range: 130
• Damage: 400 (scales with power)
• Protection: 1 sec

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Shield 2 (Colossal Push)Ram enemy with your shield and knock it back.

• Casting time: 1/4 sec
• Cooldown: 10 sec
• Range: 130
• Damage: 200 (scales with power)
• Knock back distance: 300

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Shield 3 (Wave Motion Rushing Force)Rush forward (to your target) and release an explosion of force dealing damage to enemies in front of you and bleed them.

• Casting time: 1/2 sec
• Cooldown: 12 sec
• Range of rush: 450
• Range of explosion: 450
• Damage: 500 (scales with power)
• Bleed: 3 stacks for 6 sec

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Shield Burst (Super-heavy Rush)Rush to your target and carry any enemy you rush into alongside of you as you rush (counts as pull) until you reach maximum distance of this ability, collide with environmental obstacle or reactivate this ability. Deal more damage and increase range of the rush per adrenaline consumed. If you push an enemy into environment, then inflict bleeding on it. Unblockable.

• Casting time: 1/2 sec
• Cooldown: 8 sec
• Level 1 range: 600
• Level 1 range: 900
• Level 1 range: 1200
• Level 1 damage: 400 (scales with power)
• Level 2 damage: 550 (scales with power)
• Level 3 damage: 700 (scales with power)
• Bleed if you push an enemy into environmental obstacle: 6 stacks for 10 sec

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F2 (Final Fortress)Create a done around yourself while channeling, and you can't move or perform any other actions while channeling. While channeling you block all attack, and knock away all nearby enemies with every pulse. Increase duration of this ability by amount of adrenaline consumed. Reactive this ability to cancel it.

• Casting time: instant
• Cooldown: 30 sec
• Radius: 240
• Level 1 duration: 2 sec
• Level 2 duration: 3 sec
• Level 3 duration: 4 sec
• Knock back distance: 200
• Pulse: 1 pulse every 1/2 sec

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Healing Brawl (Super-Flex)Knock away all enemies from yourself and heal yourself. This effect is unblockable.

• Casting time: 1/4 sec
• Cooldown: 30 sec
• Radius: 240
• Knock back distance: 200
• Healing: 4500 (scales with healing power)

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Utility Brawl 1 (Omega Bomb)Charge a short distance to your target and daze it. If your target is already disabled, then deal damage to it and knock it down.

• Casting time: 1/4 sec
• Cooldown: 30 sec
• Range: 300
• Daze: 1 sec
• Damage on disabled enemy: 500 (scales with power)
• Knock down: 2 sec

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Utility Brawl 2 (Dragon's Whip)Charge at your target and knock it back. If you knock an enemy into environmental obstacle, then bleed it.

• Casting time: 1/2 sec
• Cooldown: 20 sec
• Range of charge: 450
• Knock back distance: 450
• Bleed if you knock your target into environmental obstacle: 4 stacks for 6 sec
• Stunbreaker

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Utility Brawl 3 (Chest Burster)Perform an attack against your target. If your target is disabled, then deal more damage.

• Casting time: 1/4 sec
• Cooldown: 15 sec
• Range: 130
• Damage: 350 (scales with power)
• Damage to disabled enemy: 1000 (scales with power)

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Utility Brawl 4 (The Showdown)Taunt nearby enemies to attack you. Taunting disabled enemies will knock them down.

• Casting time: 1/2 sec
• Cooldown: 40 sec
• Radius: 450
• Taunt: 1 and 1/2 sec
• Knock down: 2 and 1/2 sec
• Stunbreaker

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Elite Brawl (Titan's Grip)Suppress your target (counts as a stun) for a short duration while channeling (you can't perform any other actions while suppressing an enemy, except you can look around). You can reactive this ability to launch suppressed enemy at the direction you are facing. If launched enemy comes into contact with other enemies, then those enemies will suffer damage and will be stunned. If launched enemy collides with environmental obstacle, then he/she will take massive damage and suffer bleeding.

• Casting time of initial suppression: 1/2 sec
• Cooldown: 80
• Range of suppression: 130
• Suppression: 2 sec
• Launch range: 900
• Secondary damage: 400 (scales with power)
• Stun: 3/4 sec
• Damage if target collides with environmental obstacle: 900 (scales with power)
• Bleed if target collides with environmental obstacle: 8 stacks for 12 sec

[Lametoile.7394]

well, the skills and traits are pretty good. I also like the idea of a defensive warrior that disrupt formation. However, i'm not just this is done the right way.

I also have a problem with some points:

• brawl skills 1) are pretty much the same 2) are not different in essence of physical skills. 3) the heal is very weak 4) Rely too much on environnemental obstacles
• Dual shield IS NOT a valid combat style. Definitely not. Bullcrap. Also, from a meta point of view, take into consideration the very low damage of shield. You do not want it as a main hand weapon.

I have no time to analyse the balance. The idea though is funny

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@Lametoile.7394 said:I also have a problem with some points:

• brawl skills 1) are pretty much the same 2) are not different in essence of physical skills.

Are you serious? Physical skills are stand-alone skills. They require no set-up and no preparation. Brawls require preparation and they world alongside other abilities. There is literally no difference when you use bull charge, but there is tons of difference when you use any of brawls. That is why i called them brawls - because you need combine abilities in a right way to get a desired result.

@Lametoile.7394 said:3) the heal is very weak

4500 base heal on 30 sec cooldown which also acts as a CC and have only 1/4 sec casting time is weak?

@Lametoile.7394 said:4) Rely too much on environnemental obstacles

Only if you want to play an off-build of condition damage.But i bet it still would outshine condition spellbreaker.

@Lametoile.7394 said:

• Dual shield IS NOT a valid combat style. Definitely not. Bullcrap. Also, from a meta point of view, take into consideration the very low damage of shield. You do not want it as a main hand weapon.

Well, your comment is not a valid comment, but i don't start comment what kind of cr*p it is, do i? And yes, i do. This elite would have tons of cc it could chain one after another, IT NEEDS TO HAVE LOW DAMAGE.We don't need another constant rapid fire of CC AND also massive burst damage like holosmith.So, lots of CC = low damage.

[Star.8401]

Shield main hand doesn't sound like fun or interesting gameplay.

[Keyba.9570]

@Star.8401 said:Shield main hand doesn't sound like fun or interesting gameplay.

Oh Yea? Tell that to Captain America. To OP sounds like a fun and interesting specialization. I think skill 1 has to have a chain attack leading to grand slam because we need auto attacks to build up adrenaline.

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@Keyba.9570 said:

@Star.8401 said:Shield main hand doesn't sound like fun or interesting gameplay.

Oh Yea? Tell that to Captain America. To OP sounds like a fun and interesting specialization. I think skill 1 has to have a chain attack leading to grand slam because we need auto attacks to build up adrenaline.

Yeah, you might be right.

[RedShark.9548]

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Lametoile.7394 said:I also have a problem with some points:

• brawl skills 1) are pretty much the same 2) are not different in essence of physical skills.

Are you serious? Physical skills are stand-alone skills. They require no set-up and no preparation. Brawls require preparation and they world alongside other abilities. There is literally no difference when you use bull charge, but there is tons of difference when you use any of brawls. That is why i called them brawls - because you need combine abilities in a right way to get a desired result.

@Lametoile.7394 said:3) the heal is very weak

4500 base heal on 30 sec cooldown which also acts as a CC and have only 1/4 sec casting time is weak?

@Lametoile.7394 said:4) Rely too much on environnemental obstacles

Only if you want to play an off-build of condition damage.But i bet it still would outshine condition spellbreaker.

@Lametoile.7394 said:

• Dual shield IS NOT a valid combat style. Definitely not. Bullcrap. Also, from a meta point of view, take into consideration the very low damage of shield. You do not want it as a main hand weapon.

Well, your comment is not a valid comment, but i don't start comment what kind of cr*p it is, do i? And yes, i do. This elite would have tons of cc it could chain one after another, IT NEEDS TO HAVE LOW DAMAGE.We don't need another constant rapid fire of CC AND also massive burst damage like holosmith.So, lots of CC = low damage.

dayum son, chill out a bit, he even said he kinda liked that stuff you came up with, you dont do any good by insulting ppl who give some critiquealso he is right, nobody would ever fight with 2 shields, i can imagine taking a big shield like the a towershield and use it with both hands to smash it into ppl.also the devs would habe to find a way to stow 2 shield if you dualwield them, not happening

anyways i also wanted to equip 2 shields on my warrior for just being an immovable object from time to time

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Lametoile.7394 said:I also have a problem with some points:

• brawl skills 1) are pretty much the same 2) are not different in essence of physical skills.

Are you serious? Physical skills are stand-alone skills. They require no set-up and no preparation. Brawls require preparation and they world alongside other abilities. There is literally no difference when you use bull charge, but there is tons of difference when you use any of brawls. That is why i called them brawls - because you need combine abilities in a right way to get a desired result.

@Lametoile.7394 said:3) the heal is very weak

4500 base heal on 30 sec cooldown which also acts as a CC and have only 1/4 sec casting time is weak?

@Lametoile.7394 said:4) Rely too much on environnemental obstacles

Only if you want to play an off-build of condition damage.But i bet it still would outshine condition spellbreaker.

@Lametoile.7394 said:

• Dual shield IS NOT a valid combat style. Definitely not. Bullcrap. Also, from a meta point of view, take into consideration the very low damage of shield. You do not want it as a main hand weapon.

Well, your comment is not a valid comment, but i don't start comment what kind of cr*p it is, do i? And yes, i do. This elite would have tons of cc it could chain one after another, IT NEEDS TO HAVE LOW DAMAGE.We don't need another constant rapid fire of CC AND also massive burst damage like holosmith.So, lots of CC = low damage.

kitten son, chill out a bit, he even said he kinda liked that stuff you came up with, you dont do any good by insulting ppl who give some critiquealso he is right, nobody would ever fight with 2 shields, i can imagine taking a big shield like the a towershield and use it with both hands to smash it into ppl.also the devs would habe to find a way to stow 2 shield if you dualwield them, not happening

anyways i also wanted to equip 2 shields on my warrior for just being an immovable object from time to time

1) Show at least 1 insult i posted2) How would you call this "Dual shield IS NOT a valid combat style. Definitely not. Bullcrap"? Is that an insult?3) Who ever said you WOULD HAVE TO use two shields? You would be able to use any weapon or combination of weapons. Nowhere in this elite it forces you to play 2 shields. Do you see any trait forcing you to play with two shields?4) One shield on one shoulder, other one on the back. Isn't that simple?

[RedShark.9548]

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Lametoile.7394 said:I also have a problem with some points:

• brawl skills 1) are pretty much the same 2) are not different in essence of physical skills.

Are you serious? Physical skills are stand-alone skills. They require no set-up and no preparation. Brawls require preparation and they world alongside other abilities. There is literally no difference when you use bull charge, but there is tons of difference when you use any of brawls. That is why i called them brawls - because you need combine abilities in a right way to get a desired result.

@Lametoile.7394 said:3) the heal is very weak

4500 base heal on 30 sec cooldown which also acts as a CC and have only 1/4 sec casting time is weak?

@Lametoile.7394 said:4) Rely too much on environnemental obstacles

Only if you want to play an off-build of condition damage.But i bet it still would outshine condition spellbreaker.

@Lametoile.7394 said:

• Dual shield IS NOT a valid combat style. Definitely not. Bullcrap. Also, from a meta point of view, take into consideration the very low damage of shield. You do not want it as a main hand weapon.

Well, your comment is not a valid comment, but i don't start comment what kind of cr*p it is, do i? And yes, i do. This elite would have tons of cc it could chain one after another, IT NEEDS TO HAVE LOW DAMAGE.We don't need another constant rapid fire of CC AND also massive burst damage like holosmith.So, lots of CC = low damage.

kitten son, chill out a bit, he even said he kinda liked that stuff you came up with, you dont do any good by insulting ppl who give some critiquealso he is right, nobody would ever fight with 2 shields, i can imagine taking a big shield like the a towershield and use it with both hands to smash it into ppl.also the devs would habe to find a way to stow 2 shield if you dualwield them, not happening

anyways i also wanted to equip 2 shields on my warrior for just being an immovable object from time to time

1) Show at least 1 insult i posted2) How would you call this "Dual shield IS NOT a valid combat style. Definitely not. Bullcrap"? Is that an insult?3) Who ever said you WOULD HAVE TO use two shields? You would be able to use any weapon or combination of weapons. Nowhere in this elite it forces you to play 2 shields. Do you see any trait forcing you to play with two shields?4) One shield on one shoulder, other one on the back. Isn't that simple?

1) you said his post was cr*p2)bullcrap is not towards your post but to fighting with 2 shields, makes no sense, thus bullcrap3)aye, but its a possibility that makes no sense,rly everyone would use a shield in the offhand and not mainhand, except if you used both hands to wield the shield,4)a shield on the shoulder? how does that work, just imagin usibg 2 big tower shields, also you should know that anet is incredibly lazy and wont implement new animations for all playable races and gender, they try to recycle as many animations as they can

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Lametoile.7394 said:I also have a problem with some points:

• brawl skills 1) are pretty much the same 2) are not different in essence of physical skills.

Are you serious? Physical skills are stand-alone skills. They require no set-up and no preparation. Brawls require preparation and they world alongside other abilities. There is literally no difference when you use bull charge, but there is tons of difference when you use any of brawls. That is why i called them brawls - because you need combine abilities in a right way to get a desired result.

@Lametoile.7394 said:3) the heal is very weak

4500 base heal on 30 sec cooldown which also acts as a CC and have only 1/4 sec casting time is weak?

@Lametoile.7394 said:4) Rely too much on environnemental obstacles

Only if you want to play an off-build of condition damage.But i bet it still would outshine condition spellbreaker.

@Lametoile.7394 said:

• Dual shield IS NOT a valid combat style. Definitely not. Bullcrap. Also, from a meta point of view, take into consideration the very low damage of shield. You do not want it as a main hand weapon.

Well, your comment is not a valid comment, but i don't start comment what kind of cr*p it is, do i? And yes, i do. This elite would have tons of cc it could chain one after another, IT NEEDS TO HAVE LOW DAMAGE.We don't need another constant rapid fire of CC AND also massive burst damage like holosmith.So, lots of CC = low damage.

kitten son, chill out a bit, he even said he kinda liked that stuff you came up with, you dont do any good by insulting ppl who give some critiquealso he is right, nobody would ever fight with 2 shields, i can imagine taking a big shield like the a towershield and use it with both hands to smash it into ppl.also the devs would habe to find a way to stow 2 shield if you dualwield them, not happening

anyways i also wanted to equip 2 shields on my warrior for just being an immovable object from time to time

1) Show at least 1 insult i posted2) How would you call this "Dual shield IS NOT a valid combat style. Definitely not. Bullcrap"? Is that an insult?3) Who ever said you WOULD HAVE TO use two shields? You would be able to use any weapon or combination of weapons. Nowhere in this elite it forces you to play 2 shields. Do you see any trait forcing you to play with two shields?4) One shield on one shoulder, other one on the back. Isn't that simple?

1) you said his post was cr*p2)bullcrap is not towards your post but to fighting with 2 shields, makes no sense, thus bullcrap3)aye, but its a possibility that makes no sense,rly everyone would use a shield in the offhand and not mainhand, except if you used both hands to wield the shield,4)a shield on the shoulder? how does that work, just imagin usibg 2 big tower shields, also you should know that anet is incredibly lazy and wont implement new animations for all playable races and gender, they try to recycle as many animations as they can

1) It was not towards him, but to idea of disliking main-hand shield2) Well, then you have very limited imagination, because i would use main-hand shield and off-hand sword with alternative of main-hand sword and off-hand shield.3) It would look awesome to have huge shield on your back and on your shoulder

[DKShang.8792]

This is a not a viable suggestion for the same reason sighted already. ANet will not implement the animations required for a main-hand shield. Otherwise there are a number of issues with this suggestion but it's not worth pointing them all out. I will mention two other problems I see, since the most glaring has already been pointed out, and they are (1) the whole concept of collision with environmental objects and (2) a lack of incentive to use major traits 3 & 6. If I want condi I would use Berserker and anything other than shield off-hand, much less main-hand as presented here. As for the collision issues, I am sure that if you play this game you must have already come across a problem or two in that category so I won't expound on it here.

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@DKShang.8792 said:This is a not a viable suggestion for the same reason sighted already. ANet will not implement the animations required for a main-hand shield. Otherwise there are a number of issues with this suggestion but it's not worth pointing them all out.

Are you Anet employee? No? Then you have no idea what they will or won't do.

@DKShang.8792 said:(1) the whole concept of collision with environmental objects

Rocks, walls, trees, other things. There are tons of them AND berserker already have something similar via Wild Blow.Also, you failed to present a reason why that would be an issue. You just state that it is an issue and everyone should just accept it.

@DKShang.8792 said:(2) a lack of incentive to use major traits 3 & 6. If I want condi I would use Berserker

Then Dragonhunter and core guardian shouldn't be allowed to play burn builds because there is firebrand? Is reaper no longer allowed to play condition build because scourge exists? That's not an argument, that is a poor statement which hold no water. If you think Berserker would do condition damage better, that doesn't mean spellbreaker can't try to build for condition damage.If everyone went by your logic, then nobody would play anything except the best most overpowered classes.

[Andrew Man.7239]

I like the idea of the main hand shield, but it doesn't really follow the theme in the elite specs' way of doing things. They added new weapons to other classes, but we've never had a main hand shield.Also, can we talk about how funny that would look? Take a shield off of your back and then take another shield off too.Also I feel like that would be very overpowered in a PvP scenario, as if a spellbreaker or scourge was paired with the vanguard, they could strip off stability while the vanguard just disables it for the entire teamfight. And if you paired that with sigil of savagery, the victim of that would never get up again.It is cool that you created your own fanspec, I think I'm gonna do one soon.

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@Andrew Man.7239 said:I like the idea of the main hand shield, but it doesn't really follow the theme in the elite specs' way of doing things. They added new weapons to other classes, but we've never had a main hand shield.

Well, yes. We also didn't had ambushes while dodging, or barrier, or perma-resistance, or stun wombo combo, but now we have all of those. Also, shield have weapon damage modifier, so i see no reason why it can't become main-hand weapon for one elite or another.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:Also, can we talk about how funny that would look? Take a shield off of your back and then take another shield off too.

Why? Other shield could be stored on the shoulder, or on the lower back, etc.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:Also I feel like that would be very overpowered in a PvP scenario, as if a spellbreaker or scourge was paired with the vanguard, they could strip off stability while the vanguard just disables it for the entire teamfight. And if you paired that with sigil of savagery, the victim of that would never get up again.

Well, yes. This is +1 elite. We have burst +1 classes like mesmer and thief, while this one would be CC type. Only holosmith currently can perma-stun people, but it have also tremendous damage, mobility, sustain and defense. This elite would only have defense, sustain and stuns.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:It is cool that you created your own fanspec, I think I'm gonna do one soon.

Good luck on that. Try to make one as neatly as possible, so it would be easy to read.

[DKShang.8792]

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@DKShang.8792 said:(1) the whole concept of collision with environmental objects

Rocks, walls, trees, other things. There are tons of them AND berserker already have something similar via Wild Blow.Also, you failed to present a reason why that would be an issue. You just state that it is an issue and everyone should just accept it.

If you stop and think about it for a moment you will understand what I'm saying. Which is why I didn't give particular examples. There are currently a lot of environmental collisions that are not "rocks, walls, trees, and other things" that players will get bounced and/or stuck against. It happens right now but with this suggestion you made it would potentially allow for exploitation of those collisions. That's not to mention the issues that would arise when people try to execute some of these skills and get stuck before hitting their target. Have you ever been jogging along and your toon got stuck on seemingly level or slightly inclined ground? Where you here for the release of HoT and the collision problems Vengeful Hammers had?

@DKShang.8792 said:(2) a lack of incentive to use major traits 3 & 6. If I want condi I would use Berserker

Then Dragonhunter and core guardian shouldn't be allowed to play burn builds because there is firebrand? Is reaper no longer allowed to play condition build because scourge exists? That's not an argument, that is a poor statement which hold no water. If you think Berserker would do condition damage better, that doesn't mean spellbreaker can't try to build for condition damage.If everyone went by your logic, then nobody would play anything except the best most overpowered classes.

I don't understand your logic here. Let me explain again. Minor trait 3 & 6 do not provide much of any boost to condi compared to traits such as Always Angry, Heat the Soul, and King of Fires. Your main hand shield only offers bleed on shield 3, with a 12 sec cool down, compared to sword, for example, which has 2 bleeds on the auto chain. As such why would you add inferior condi traits and a single bleed when there is Berserker? Logic follows that people would use the elite and weapons that provide greater benefits for the condi approach. As for your comment about Dragonhunter and core Guard I'm going to not address that. Not only is this the warrior subforum it is also not a good comparison to the point I'm making which is THIS elite for the WARRIOR using a main-hand shield and minor traits 3 & 6 for a condi build.

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@DKShang.8792 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@DKShang.8792 said:(1) the whole concept of collision with environmental objects

Rocks, walls, trees, other things. There are tons of them AND berserker already have something similar via Wild Blow.Also, you failed to present a reason why that would be an issue. You just state that it is an issue and everyone should just accept it.

If you stop and think about it for a moment you will understand what I'm saying. Which is why I didn't give particular examples. There are currently a lot of environmental collisions that are not "rocks, walls, trees, and other things" that players will get bounced and/or stuck against. It happens right now but with this suggestion you made it would potentially allow for exploitation of those collisions. That's not to mention the issues that would arise when people try to execute some of these skills and get stuck before hitting their target. Have you ever been jogging along and your toon got stuck on seemingly level or slightly inclined ground? Where you here for the release of HoT and the collision problems Vengeful Hammers had?

Well, do you get stuck anymore? The last time i got stuck was over 6 months ago.Also, it would give another reason for Anet to work more on their physics engine.Bugs aren't reason enough to dismiss something. Previously shades didn't hit enemies who was hiding behind stuff, but now they do. That's what developers do - they fix bugs.

@DKShang.8792 said:

(2) a lack of incentive to use major traits 3 & 6. If I want condi I would use Berserker

Then Dragonhunter and core guardian shouldn't be allowed to play burn builds because there is firebrand? Is reaper no longer allowed to play condition build because scourge exists? That's not an argument, that is a poor statement which hold no water. If you think Berserker would do condition damage better, that doesn't mean spellbreaker can't try to build for condition damage.If everyone went by your logic, then nobody would play anything except the best most overpowered classes.

I don't understand your logic here. Let me explain again. Minor trait 3 & 6 do not provide much of any boost to condi compared to traits such as Always Angry, Heat the Soul, and King of Fires. Your main hand shield only offers bleed on shield 3, with a 12 sec cool down, compared to sword, for example, which has 2 bleeds on the auto chain.

Yes, you don't understand.P.S. berserker offer 0 condition damage on attacks.Condition traits are mostly for sword+shield play style. Every sword autoattacks would deal bonus 80-220 (depends on scaling and build) bonus damage and inflict vulnerability. And while not a big boost, try to imagine how that would work with Body Blow (strength trait). Bleeds on CC, bonus damage on bleed. Damage would ramp up pretty high, not even mentioning that sword burst would inflict 880-2420 (depends on scaling and build) bonus direct damage, and that's ignoring all vulnerability it would stack.

@DKShang.8792 said:As such why would you add inferior condi traits and a single bleed when there is Berserker?

Correction: superior. Berserker can deal decent condition damage only with a torch and through primal burst. Sword autoattacks gain nothing from berserker. Not even mentioning how berserker is mostly burn based condition spec.My spec is way more condition friendly if you use main-hand sword. And remember - elite spec can use any combination of weapons. On condition damage my spec would be nearly as good as berserker, but would have way more CC and defense. If you wanted only pure damage, then yeah, you would take berserker. But if you want some more defense and more CC, then this spec would be superior.

@DKShang.8792 said:Logic follows that people would use the elite and weapons that provide greater benefits for the condi approach.

Yes, like currently nobody uses torch in pvp. You are right, everybody can use whatever they want.

[DKShang.8792]

I only see one trait, Major Trait 3, that directly boosts condi damage. You say berserker has no condition boosting traits? I feel you are talking about something different. How does your Major Trait 3 provide superior condi damage over Berserker which has Last Blaze, Always Angry, Heat the Soul, and King of Fires. Other than Major Trait 3, what does your elite have that boosts condi?

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@DKShang.8792 said:I only see one trait, Major Trait 3, that directly boosts condi damage. You say berserker has no condition boosting traits? I feel you are talking about something different. How does your Major Trait 3 provide superior condi damage over Berserker which has Last Blaze, Always Angry, Heat the Soul, and King of Fires. Other than Major Trait 3, what does your elite have that boosts condi?

I will give you a hint.

Major Trait 3 (Dangerous Warfare)When you inflict a damaging condition, then also inflict 1 stack of vulnerability for 10 sec.+Major Trait 6 (Biological Warfare)Deal 80 (scales with condition damage) direct damage every time you inflict a damaging condition.+Body BlowStuns, dazes, knockbacks, pulls, pushes, and launches inflict bleeding and weakness.+F2 (Final Fortress)Create a done around yourself while channeling, and you can't move or perform any other actions while channeling. While channeling you block all attack, and knock away all nearby enemies with every pulse. Increase duration of this ability by amount of adrenaline consumed. Reactive this ability to cancel it.

=

Every time you disable an enemy you inflict bleeding. Every time you inflict bleeding you inflict vulnerability and deal bonus direct damage. Vulnerability increase direct and condition damage taken. If you can disabled (knock back) lots of enemies at short intervals (F2), then you can stacks lots of AOE damage. And because everyone on your team deals more damage on vulnerable foes, you also increase their damage as well.So, you ask what it have to boost condition damage:1) Vulnerability on damaging condition2) Bonus direct damage which scales on condition damage on damaging condition3) Great synergy with other core condition traits: Berseker have negative synergy with traits like Bloodlust, while my elite works with it very nicely

Do you understand now?

[Andrew Man.7239]

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Andrew Man.7239 said:I like the idea of the main hand shield, but it doesn't really follow the theme in the elite specs' way of doing things. They added new weapons to other classes, but we've never had a main hand shield.

Well, yes. We also didn't had ambushes while dodging, or barrier, or perma-resistance, or stun wombo combo, but now we have all of those. Also, shield have weapon damage modifier, so i see no reason why it can't become main-hand weapon for one elite or another.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:Also, can we talk about how funny that would look? Take a shield off of your back and then take another shield off too.

Why? Other shield could be stored on the shoulder, or on the lower back, etc.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:Also I feel like that would be very overpowered in a PvP scenario, as if a spellbreaker or scourge was paired with the vanguard, they could strip off stability while the vanguard just disables it for the entire teamfight. And if you paired that with sigil of savagery, the victim of that would never get up again.

Well, yes. This is +1 elite. We have burst +1 classes like mesmer and thief, while this one would be CC type. Only holosmith currently can perma-stun people, but it have also tremendous damage, mobility, sustain and defense. This elite would only have defense, sustain and stuns.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:It is cool that you created your own fanspec, I think I'm gonna do one soon.

Good luck on that. Try to make one as neatly as possible, so it would be easy to read.

Actually, I think it would be very strong. Assuming you'd run a power stun build with shield/shield gs, if you slapped Bull's Charge and Peak Performance onto it, that's still a very large amount of damage. And during it, the victim couldn't even save itself with stability. Also, yes, 2 shields on someone's back would be funny.I understand the point you were trying to make with Mirage's Thrust, and I'd have to disagree with you on that. While it is a new and interesting mechanic, it doesn't change the weapons we were ever allowed completely, like adding a main-hand shield does. I feel like if that was one of ANet's goals, that they'd prioritize the greataxe. (I saw those ogres with the big axes on their backs you can't say no ANet)

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@Andrew Man.7239 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Andrew Man.7239 said:I like the idea of the main hand shield, but it doesn't really follow the theme in the elite specs' way of doing things. They added new weapons to other classes, but we've never had a main hand shield.

Well, yes. We also didn't had ambushes while dodging, or barrier, or perma-resistance, or stun wombo combo, but now we have all of those. Also, shield have weapon damage modifier, so i see no reason why it can't become main-hand weapon for one elite or another.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:Also, can we talk about how funny that would look? Take a shield off of your back and then take another shield off too.

Why? Other shield could be stored on the shoulder, or on the lower back, etc.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:Also I feel like that would be very overpowered in a PvP scenario, as if a spellbreaker or scourge was paired with the vanguard, they could strip off stability while the vanguard just disables it for the entire teamfight. And if you paired that with sigil of savagery, the victim of that would never get up again.

Well, yes. This is +1 elite. We have burst +1 classes like mesmer and thief, while this one would be CC type. Only holosmith currently can perma-stun people, but it have also tremendous damage, mobility, sustain and defense. This elite would only have defense, sustain and stuns.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:It is cool that you created your own fanspec, I think I'm gonna do one soon.

Good luck on that. Try to make one as neatly as possible, so it would be easy to read.

Actually, I think it would be very strong. Assuming you'd run a power stun build with shield/shield gs, if you slapped Bull's Charge and Peak Performance onto it, that's still a very large amount of damage. And during it, the victim couldn't even save itself with stability. Also, yes, 2 shields on someone's back would be funny.I understand the point you were trying to make with Mirage's Thrust, and I'd have to disagree with you on that. While it is a new and interesting mechanic, it doesn't change the weapons we were ever allowed completely, like adding a main-hand shield does. I feel like if that was one of ANet's goals, that they'd prioritize the greataxe. (I saw those ogres with the big axes on their backs you can't say no ANet)

Well, i personally still would use Shield+sword and sword+shield condition build.Also, holosmith can already perma-stun someone whole day and i can't see anybody complaining, so warrior with a bit similar style might not be too strong.

[Andrew Man.7239]

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Andrew Man.7239 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Andrew Man.7239 said:I like the idea of the main hand shield, but it doesn't really follow the theme in the elite specs' way of doing things. They added new weapons to other classes, but we've never had a main hand shield.

Well, yes. We also didn't had ambushes while dodging, or barrier, or perma-resistance, or stun wombo combo, but now we have all of those. Also, shield have weapon damage modifier, so i see no reason why it can't become main-hand weapon for one elite or another.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:Also, can we talk about how funny that would look? Take a shield off of your back and then take another shield off too.

Why? Other shield could be stored on the shoulder, or on the lower back, etc.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:Also I feel like that would be very overpowered in a PvP scenario, as if a spellbreaker or scourge was paired with the vanguard, they could strip off stability while the vanguard just disables it for the entire teamfight. And if you paired that with sigil of savagery, the victim of that would never get up again.

Well, yes. This is +1 elite. We have burst +1 classes like mesmer and thief, while this one would be CC type. Only holosmith currently can perma-stun people, but it have also tremendous damage, mobility, sustain and defense. This elite would only have defense, sustain and stuns.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:It is cool that you created your own fanspec, I think I'm gonna do one soon.

Good luck on that. Try to make one as neatly as possible, so it would be easy to read.

Actually, I think it would be very strong. Assuming you'd run a power stun build with shield/shield gs, if you slapped Bull's Charge and Peak Performance onto it, that's still a very large amount of damage. And during it, the victim couldn't even save itself with stability. Also, yes, 2 shields on someone's back would be funny.I understand the point you were trying to make with Mirage's Thrust, and I'd have to disagree with you on that. While it is a new and interesting mechanic, it doesn't change the weapons we were ever allowed completely, like adding a main-hand shield does. I feel like if that was one of ANet's goals, that they'd prioritize the greataxe. (I saw those ogres with the big axes on their backs you can't say no ANet)

Well, i personally still would use Shield+sword and sword+shield condition build.Also, holosmith can already perma-stun someone whole day and i can't see anybody complaining, so warrior with a bit similar style might not be too strong.

Holosmith is a little bit different. Yes, it has CCs that can be executed without much risk but keep in mind that something that has access to stances for stability and permastun would be incredibly powerful, because the way to off somebody who's pressuring you while you're on cd is to stun them back. That works with holo if you boonstrip their corona burst cc, but if it can keep pumping out stability after you remove it, you're out of luck, because most classes don't have a lot of boonstrip and cc(Spellbreaker, I'm looking at you)

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@Andrew Man.7239 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Andrew Man.7239 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Andrew Man.7239 said:I like the idea of the main hand shield, but it doesn't really follow the theme in the elite specs' way of doing things. They added new weapons to other classes, but we've never had a main hand shield.

Well, yes. We also didn't had ambushes while dodging, or barrier, or perma-resistance, or stun wombo combo, but now we have all of those. Also, shield have weapon damage modifier, so i see no reason why it can't become main-hand weapon for one elite or another.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:Also, can we talk about how funny that would look? Take a shield off of your back and then take another shield off too.

Why? Other shield could be stored on the shoulder, or on the lower back, etc.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:Also I feel like that would be very overpowered in a PvP scenario, as if a spellbreaker or scourge was paired with the vanguard, they could strip off stability while the vanguard just disables it for the entire teamfight. And if you paired that with sigil of savagery, the victim of that would never get up again.

Well, yes. This is +1 elite. We have burst +1 classes like mesmer and thief, while this one would be CC type. Only holosmith currently can perma-stun people, but it have also tremendous damage, mobility, sustain and defense. This elite would only have defense, sustain and stuns.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:It is cool that you created your own fanspec, I think I'm gonna do one soon.

Good luck on that. Try to make one as neatly as possible, so it would be easy to read.

Actually, I think it would be very strong. Assuming you'd run a power stun build with shield/shield gs, if you slapped Bull's Charge and Peak Performance onto it, that's still a very large amount of damage. And during it, the victim couldn't even save itself with stability. Also, yes, 2 shields on someone's back would be funny.I understand the point you were trying to make with Mirage's Thrust, and I'd have to disagree with you on that. While it is a new and interesting mechanic, it doesn't change the weapons we were ever allowed completely, like adding a main-hand shield does. I feel like if that was one of ANet's goals, that they'd prioritize the greataxe. (I saw those ogres with the big axes on their backs you can't say no ANet)

Well, i personally still would use Shield+sword and sword+shield condition build.Also, holosmith can already perma-stun someone whole day and i can't see anybody complaining, so warrior with a bit similar style might not be too strong.

Holosmith is a little bit different. Yes, it has CCs that can be executed without much risk but keep in mind that something that has access to stances for stability and permastun would be incredibly powerful, because the way to off somebody who's pressuring you while you're on cd is to stun them back. That works with holo if you boonstrip their corona burst cc, but if it can keep pumping out stability after you remove it, you're out of luck, because most classes don't have a lot of boonstrip and cc(Spellbreaker, I'm looking at you)

Well, i am not engineer player, but couple of times i have seen engineers who have nearly endless stability, two shrink potions and two uses of their healing abilities, so i think holosmith is much stronger in this regard.Also, holosmith have massive damage, this elite doesn't. This is nearly purely defensive spec.

I think this elite would work much better as small skirmish elite (2v2) or for tanking loads of damage (WvW zergs, raids).

[Andrew Man.7239]

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Andrew Man.7239 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Andrew Man.7239 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Andrew Man.7239 said:I like the idea of the main hand shield, but it doesn't really follow the theme in the elite specs' way of doing things. They added new weapons to other classes, but we've never had a main hand shield.

Well, yes. We also didn't had ambushes while dodging, or barrier, or perma-resistance, or stun wombo combo, but now we have all of those. Also, shield have weapon damage modifier, so i see no reason why it can't become main-hand weapon for one elite or another.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:Also, can we talk about how funny that would look? Take a shield off of your back and then take another shield off too.

Why? Other shield could be stored on the shoulder, or on the lower back, etc.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:Also I feel like that would be very overpowered in a PvP scenario, as if a spellbreaker or scourge was paired with the vanguard, they could strip off stability while the vanguard just disables it for the entire teamfight. And if you paired that with sigil of savagery, the victim of that would never get up again.

Well, yes. This is +1 elite. We have burst +1 classes like mesmer and thief, while this one would be CC type. Only holosmith currently can perma-stun people, but it have also tremendous damage, mobility, sustain and defense. This elite would only have defense, sustain and stuns.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:It is cool that you created your own fanspec, I think I'm gonna do one soon.

Good luck on that. Try to make one as neatly as possible, so it would be easy to read.

Actually, I think it would be very strong. Assuming you'd run a power stun build with shield/shield gs, if you slapped Bull's Charge and Peak Performance onto it, that's still a very large amount of damage. And during it, the victim couldn't even save itself with stability. Also, yes, 2 shields on someone's back would be funny.I understand the point you were trying to make with Mirage's Thrust, and I'd have to disagree with you on that. While it is a new and interesting mechanic, it doesn't change the weapons we were ever allowed completely, like adding a main-hand shield does. I feel like if that was one of ANet's goals, that they'd prioritize the greataxe. (I saw those ogres with the big axes on their backs you can't say no ANet)

Well, i personally still would use Shield+sword and sword+shield condition build.Also, holosmith can already perma-stun someone whole day and i can't see anybody complaining, so warrior with a bit similar style might not be too strong.

Holosmith is a little bit different. Yes, it has CCs that can be executed without much risk but keep in mind that something that has access to stances for stability and permastun would be incredibly powerful, because the way to off somebody who's pressuring you while you're on cd is to stun them back. That works with holo if you boonstrip their corona burst cc, but if it can keep pumping out stability after you remove it, you're out of luck, because most classes don't have a lot of boonstrip and cc(Spellbreaker, I'm looking at you)

Well, i am not engineer player, but couple of times i have seen engineers who have nearly endless stability, two shrink potions and two uses of their healing abilities, so i think holosmith is much stronger in this regard.Also, holosmith have massive damage, this elite doesn't. This is nearly purely defensive spec.

I think this elite would work much better as small skirmish elite (2v2) or for tanking loads of damage (WvW zergs, raids).

I've played engineer before, and I know that even in a 1v1 scenario you can be quite easily downed. In order to get those double elixer S's, you have to take the Alchemist traitline which overall decreases your ability to do a large amount of damage. This makes it easier for thieves to counter you and kite.

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@Andrew Man.7239 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Andrew Man.7239 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Andrew Man.7239 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Andrew Man.7239 said:I like the idea of the main hand shield, but it doesn't really follow the theme in the elite specs' way of doing things. They added new weapons to other classes, but we've never had a main hand shield.

Well, yes. We also didn't had ambushes while dodging, or barrier, or perma-resistance, or stun wombo combo, but now we have all of those. Also, shield have weapon damage modifier, so i see no reason why it can't become main-hand weapon for one elite or another.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:Also, can we talk about how funny that would look? Take a shield off of your back and then take another shield off too.

Why? Other shield could be stored on the shoulder, or on the lower back, etc.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:Also I feel like that would be very overpowered in a PvP scenario, as if a spellbreaker or scourge was paired with the vanguard, they could strip off stability while the vanguard just disables it for the entire teamfight. And if you paired that with sigil of savagery, the victim of that would never get up again.

Well, yes. This is +1 elite. We have burst +1 classes like mesmer and thief, while this one would be CC type. Only holosmith currently can perma-stun people, but it have also tremendous damage, mobility, sustain and defense. This elite would only have defense, sustain and stuns.

@Andrew Man.7239 said:It is cool that you created your own fanspec, I think I'm gonna do one soon.

Good luck on that. Try to make one as neatly as possible, so it would be easy to read.

Actually, I think it would be very strong. Assuming you'd run a power stun build with shield/shield gs, if you slapped Bull's Charge and Peak Performance onto it, that's still a very large amount of damage. And during it, the victim couldn't even save itself with stability. Also, yes, 2 shields on someone's back would be funny.I understand the point you were trying to make with Mirage's Thrust, and I'd have to disagree with you on that. While it is a new and interesting mechanic, it doesn't change the weapons we were ever allowed completely, like adding a main-hand shield does. I feel like if that was one of ANet's goals, that they'd prioritize the greataxe. (I saw those ogres with the big axes on their backs you can't say no ANet)

Well, i personally still would use Shield+sword and sword+shield condition build.Also, holosmith can already perma-stun someone whole day and i can't see anybody complaining, so warrior with a bit similar style might not be too strong.

Holosmith is a little bit different. Yes, it has CCs that can be executed without much risk but keep in mind that something that has access to stances for stability and permastun would be incredibly powerful, because the way to off somebody who's pressuring you while you're on cd is to stun them back. That works with holo if you boonstrip their corona burst cc, but if it can keep pumping out stability after you remove it, you're out of luck, because most classes don't have a lot of boonstrip and cc(Spellbreaker, I'm looking at you)

Well, i am not engineer player, but couple of times i have seen engineers who have nearly endless stability, two shrink potions and two uses of their healing abilities, so i think holosmith is much stronger in this regard.Also, holosmith have massive damage, this elite doesn't. This is nearly purely defensive spec.

I think this elite would work much better as small skirmish elite (2v2) or for tanking loads of damage (WvW zergs, raids).

I've played engineer before, and I know that even in a 1v1 scenario you can be quite easily downed. In order to get those double elixer S's, you have to take the Alchemist traitline which overall decreases your ability to do a large amount of damage. This makes it easier for thieves to counter you and kite.

Well, whenever i play against good holosmith i simply run away, because i will be cced to death. I have seen 1 holosmith down 3 other players with one cc combo chain. And it have at least 5 cc (knockback, stun, knockdown).My elite on the other hand goes in the opposite way. While it have lots of CC, it don't have that much damage and rather focus on defense. Whole F2 is exclusively defensive (what is quite different to full counter).So yeah, this elite would be pretty strong on locking one enemy down, but it doesn't have damage to actually kill that enemy.

[DKShang.8792]

Well, that was a wall of text; however, you did not answer the question.