Reflect anti synergy - stealth and friendly projectiles.

[Curunen.8729]

Especially an issue on Mesmer, the anti synergy between reflects and stealth and projectiles is getting to be extremely annoying.

This affects several traits and skills - Evasive Mirror and Master of Manipulation in particular, Prismatic Understanding, Infinite Horizon as well as all stealth skills and then things like Staff auto attack and ambush (and even axe ambush if you happen to get in the way of projectiles while proccing reflect). And many other interactions tbh...

In a nutshell, reflects break staff auto/ambush and break stealth. Eg, if you proc Evasive Mirror while dodging with IH clones lined up behind you, not only will you not get any boons, but the damn projectiles will bounce backwards away from your enemy! Similarly if you are stealthed and cast axe ambush with IH clones in melee range, you can get hit by friendly projectles, breaking your stealth, revealing you and reflecting those projectiles away from your enemy.

Proposed solution:

1. Reflects no longer break stealth or cause reveal.

2. Reflects no longer affect friendly (allied) projectiles.

I could elaborate further as to why I feel this is a huge problem, particularly as the trait lines and build options often encourage use of reflects, staff and stealth together... but anyway these two fixes should make all these problems disappear.

[OriOri.8724]

Change #2 should definitely be implemented, as its almost certainly not intended synergy with some skills (that or just make staff auto not a projectile I guess).

[Curunen.8729]

Potentially solution 2 could be all that's needed because most of the time it's friendly projectile autos that break stealth when you don't want it broken anyway.

It would allow you to take reflects, stealth and staff all in the same build without kittening yourself.

Edit - however on second thought, solution 1 is also crucial because of things like decoy (or other stealth) into dodge to evade channeled attack/aoe/cleave/etc, proccing evasive mirror and immediately revealing you rendering decoy or whatever stealth skill as useless.

I personally tend to dodge following a stealth in many situations and evasive mirror breaks it.

[Coulter.2315]

A potential fix (because it may be impossible to make reflects distinguish between friendly and unfriendly projectiles) is to make staff ambush and auto unblockable.

As for the other problem dropping the CD on Mass Invis then declassifying it (remove it from the list of Manipulations) seems the easiest move.

[OriOri.8724]

Making MI not a manipulation skill would mean we are no longer able to trait it for reduced CD. That's not a solution.

[Coulter.2315]

@OriOri.8724 said:Making MI not a manipulation skill would mean we are no longer able to trait it for reduced CD. That's not a solution.

Just reduce the base CD, it is hardly so OP that it breaks the game.

[Curunen.8729]

It's not just Mass Invis though - it's any stealth with any reflect, particularly Evasive Mirror used with any stealth skills.

Simply changing Mass Invis wouldn't fix that problem, because Evasive Mirror or traited Mirror heal into stealth would still be an issue.

Usually when stealthing you may dodge in order to evade aoe/channeled skills/melee cleave/and so on... and if using Evasive Mirror it will proc reflect which when hit by a projectile (usually your own staff/clone autos, ambush or axe ambush for example, or enemy projectile) immediately breaks the stealth skill you used - which affects everything including Prestige, Decoy, SoM and especially if you trait PU - renders that trait useless.

Anyone can try this to see - trait Duelling and Chaos, take Evasive Mirror and PU if you like, and a few stealth skills. Preferably also use staff - then make a note of the number of times stealth gets broken due to Evasive Mirror proc reflecting something and revealing you.

I mean, this has been an issue for ages, but only in the spotlight now due to mirage's frequent evade access proccing evasive mirror almost every time you evade - showing how broken reflects+stealth is.

[OriOri.8724]

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Making MI not a manipulation skill would mean we are no longer able to trait it for reduced CD. That's not a solution.

Just reduce the base CD, it is hardly so OP that it breaks the game.

Having to take a trait to reduce the CD is a balance decision. Choices are good. Don't just remove that choice when there are better ways to solve this problem. Especially because this doesn't solve the problem at all.

[Coulter.2315]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Making MI not a manipulation skill would mean we are no longer able to trait it for reduced CD. That's not a solution.

Just reduce the base CD, it is hardly so OP that it breaks the game.

Having to take a trait to reduce the CD is a balance decision. Choices are good. Don't just remove that choice when there are better ways to solve this problem. Especially because this doesn't solve the problem at all.

You want a solution to a problem, the choices to fix it are 1) remove reflect from the manipulation trait 2) remove mass invis from the manipulation category. Anyone hoping that "reflect" is about to get a massive overhaul in recognising friendly projectiles and not breaking stealth are kidding themselves. I have provided simple fixes that might not be super exciting but they are the best you'll likely get (the other fix is making staff auto/ambush unblockable to ignore the reflect effect).

[Curunen.8729]

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Making MI not a manipulation skill would mean we are no longer able to trait it for reduced CD. That's not a solution.

Just reduce the base CD, it is hardly so OP that it breaks the game.

Having to take a trait to reduce the CD is a balance decision. Choices are good. Don't just remove that choice when there are better ways to solve this problem. Especially because this doesn't solve the problem at all.

You want a solution to a problem, the choices to fix it are 1) remove reflect from the manipulation trait 2) remove mass invis from the manipulation category. Anyone hoping that "reflect" is about to get a massive overhaul in recognising friendly projectiles and not breaking stealth are kidding themselves. I have provided simple fixes that might not be super exciting but they are the best you'll likely get (the other fix is making staff auto/ambush unblockable to ignore the reflect effect).

As said, this still doesn't solve evasive mirror + stealth interaction in general. Unblockable staff auto/ambush could work but I can already smell the whining that will come from pvp and wvw if that happens. But that still leaves enemy projectiles being reflected after evade and breaking stealth, or axe ambush from clones in melee range and other things doing the same.

Tbh who cares about mass invis right now anyway given most people are going to be using Jaunt, Gravity Well or possibly Time Warp in various game modes, even wvw. Yes mass invis traited needs looking at, but evasive mirror is possibly an even bigger issue for mirage's traiting it and trying to use stealth in particular due to the high amount of evade uptime.

I understand that given the slow pace of balancing these kind of fixes may not happen at all - but they still need to be suggested and pointed out because there is always a non-zero chance that a surprise balance patch could come along that fixes friendly projectile reflect and stealth breaking. No need to keep suggestions small due to pessimism - best suggest big changes and see what outcome occurs, even if nothing.

[Coulter.2315]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Making MI not a manipulation skill would mean we are no longer able to trait it for reduced CD. That's not a solution.

Just reduce the base CD, it is hardly so OP that it breaks the game.

Having to take a trait to reduce the CD is a balance decision. Choices are good. Don't just remove that choice when there are better ways to solve this problem. Especially because this doesn't solve the problem at all.

You want a solution to a problem, the choices to fix it are 1) remove reflect from the manipulation trait 2) remove mass invis from the manipulation category. Anyone hoping that "reflect" is about to get a massive overhaul in recognising friendly projectiles and not breaking stealth are kidding themselves. I have provided simple fixes that might not be super exciting but they are the best you'll likely get (the other fix is making staff auto/ambush unblockable to ignore the reflect effect).

As said, this still doesn't solve evasive mirror + stealth interaction in general. Unblockable staff auto/ambush could work but I can already smell the whining that will come from pvp and wvw if that happens. But that still leaves enemy projectiles being reflected after evade and breaking stealth, or axe ambush from clones in melee range and other things doing the same.

Tbh who cares about mass invis right now anyway given most people are going to be using Jaunt, Gravity Well or possibly Time Warp in various game modes, even wvw. Yes mass invis traited needs looking at, but evasive mirror is possibly an even bigger issue for mirage's traiting it and trying to use stealth in particular due to the high amount of evade uptime.

I understand that given the slow pace of balancing these kind of fixes may not happen at all - but they still need to be suggested and pointed out because there is always a non-zero chance that a surprise balance patch could come along that fixes friendly projectile reflect and stealth breaking. No need to keep suggestions small due to pessimism - best suggest big changes and see what outcome occurs, even if nothing.

Fair enough, I just thought it would be best to push some practical and easy solutions to try and get some results "fast."

[OriOri.8724]

@Coulter.2315 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Making MI not a manipulation skill would mean we are no longer able to trait it for reduced CD. That's not a solution.

Just reduce the base CD, it is hardly so OP that it breaks the game.

Having to take a trait to reduce the CD is a balance decision. Choices are good. Don't just remove that choice when there are better ways to solve this problem. Especially because this doesn't solve the problem at all.

You want a solution to a problem, the choices to fix it are 1) remove reflect from the manipulation trait 2) remove mass invis from the manipulation category. Anyone hoping that "reflect" is about to get a massive overhaul in recognising friendly projectiles and not breaking stealth are kidding themselves. I have provided simple fixes that might not be super exciting but they are the best you'll likely get (the other fix is making staff auto/ambush unblockable to ignore the reflect effect).

As said, this still doesn't solve evasive mirror + stealth interaction in general. Unblockable staff auto/ambush could work but I can already smell the whining that will come from pvp and wvw if that happens. But that still leaves enemy projectiles being reflected after evade and breaking stealth, or axe ambush from clones in melee range and other things doing the same.

Tbh who cares about mass invis right now anyway given most people are going to be using Jaunt, Gravity Well or possibly Time Warp in various game modes, even wvw. Yes mass invis traited needs looking at, but evasive mirror is possibly an even bigger issue for mirage's traiting it and trying to use stealth in particular due to the high amount of evade uptime.

I understand that given the slow pace of balancing these kind of fixes may not happen at all - but they still need to be suggested and pointed out because there is always a non-zero chance that a surprise balance patch could come along that fixes friendly projectile reflect and stealth breaking. No need to keep suggestions small due to pessimism - best suggest big changes and see what outcome occurs, even if nothing.

Fair enough, I just thought it would be best to push some practical and easy solutions to try and get some results "fast."

But that's the thing, its not a solution. Even removing MI from the manipulation category wouldn't solve the problem for MI. If you take EM, you can use MI, then dodge through an attack, and still gain mirror, reflecting a projectile and then revealing yourself. Needlessly nerfing MI by removing it from the manipulation category doesn't solve the problem. A solution would be to either make it so that reflecting projectiles doesn't reveal you, or changing these traits to absorb projectiles when you are in stealth (though that would still have negative synergy with staff ambush)

[Coulter.2315]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Making MI not a manipulation skill would mean we are no longer able to trait it for reduced CD. That's not a solution.

Just reduce the base CD, it is hardly so OP that it breaks the game.

Having to take a trait to reduce the CD is a balance decision. Choices are good. Don't just remove that choice when there are better ways to solve this problem. Especially because this doesn't solve the problem at all.

You want a solution to a problem, the choices to fix it are 1) remove reflect from the manipulation trait 2) remove mass invis from the manipulation category. Anyone hoping that "reflect" is about to get a massive overhaul in recognising friendly projectiles and not breaking stealth are kidding themselves. I have provided simple fixes that might not be super exciting but they are the best you'll likely get (the other fix is making staff auto/ambush unblockable to ignore the reflect effect).

As said, this still doesn't solve evasive mirror + stealth interaction in general. Unblockable staff auto/ambush could work but I can already smell the whining that will come from pvp and wvw if that happens. But that still leaves enemy projectiles being reflected after evade and breaking stealth, or axe ambush from clones in melee range and other things doing the same.

Tbh who cares about mass invis right now anyway given most people are going to be using Jaunt, Gravity Well or possibly Time Warp in various game modes, even wvw. Yes mass invis traited needs looking at, but evasive mirror is possibly an even bigger issue for mirage's traiting it and trying to use stealth in particular due to the high amount of evade uptime.

I understand that given the slow pace of balancing these kind of fixes may not happen at all - but they still need to be suggested and pointed out because there is always a non-zero chance that a surprise balance patch could come along that fixes friendly projectile reflect and stealth breaking. No need to keep suggestions small due to pessimism - best suggest big changes and see what outcome occurs, even if nothing.

Fair enough, I just thought it would be best to push some practical and easy solutions to try and get some results "fast."

But that's the thing, its not a solution. Even removing MI from the manipulation category wouldn't solve the problem for MI. If you take EM, you can use MI, then dodge through an attack, and still gain mirror, reflecting a projectile and then revealing yourself. Needlessly nerfing MI by removing it from the manipulation category doesn't solve the problem. A solution would be to either make it so that reflecting projectiles doesn't reveal you, or changing these traits to absorb projectiles when you are in stealth (though that would still have negative synergy with staff ambush)

I do not think reveal from reflected attacks is an issue, I think you have a choice to bring reflects or stealth. You seem to feel otherwise but you'll need to explain to me why you think you should be allowed to land attacks from stealth without being revealed. I think reflects are a fun choice to take and wouldn't want them removed, but I think there is a clash with the new staff ambush and mass invis in particular, these can be fixed as I laid out above.

[Curunen.8729]

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Making MI not a manipulation skill would mean we are no longer able to trait it for reduced CD. That's not a solution.

Just reduce the base CD, it is hardly so OP that it breaks the game.

Having to take a trait to reduce the CD is a balance decision. Choices are good. Don't just remove that choice when there are better ways to solve this problem. Especially because this doesn't solve the problem at all.

You want a solution to a problem, the choices to fix it are 1) remove reflect from the manipulation trait 2) remove mass invis from the manipulation category. Anyone hoping that "reflect" is about to get a massive overhaul in recognising friendly projectiles and not breaking stealth are kidding themselves. I have provided simple fixes that might not be super exciting but they are the best you'll likely get (the other fix is making staff auto/ambush unblockable to ignore the reflect effect).

As said, this still doesn't solve evasive mirror + stealth interaction in general. Unblockable staff auto/ambush could work but I can already smell the whining that will come from pvp and wvw if that happens. But that still leaves enemy projectiles being reflected after evade and breaking stealth, or axe ambush from clones in melee range and other things doing the same.

Tbh who cares about mass invis right now anyway given most people are going to be using Jaunt, Gravity Well or possibly Time Warp in various game modes, even wvw. Yes mass invis traited needs looking at, but evasive mirror is possibly an even bigger issue for mirage's traiting it and trying to use stealth in particular due to the high amount of evade uptime.

I understand that given the slow pace of balancing these kind of fixes may not happen at all - but they still need to be suggested and pointed out because there is always a non-zero chance that a surprise balance patch could come along that fixes friendly projectile reflect and stealth breaking. No need to keep suggestions small due to pessimism - best suggest big changes and see what outcome occurs, even if nothing.

Fair enough, I just thought it would be best to push some practical and easy solutions to try and get some results "fast."

But that's the thing, its not a solution. Even removing MI from the manipulation category wouldn't solve the problem for MI. If you take EM, you can use MI, then dodge through an attack, and still gain mirror, reflecting a projectile and then revealing yourself. Needlessly nerfing MI by removing it from the manipulation category doesn't solve the problem. A solution would be to either make it so that reflecting projectiles doesn't reveal you, or changing these traits to absorb projectiles when you are in stealth (though that would still have negative synergy with staff ambush)

I do not think reveal from reflected attacks is an issue, I think you have a choice to bring reflects or stealth. You seem to feel otherwise but you'll need to explain to me why you think you should be allowed to land attacks from stealth without being revealed. I think reflects are a fun choice to take and wouldn't want them removed, but I think there is a clash with the new staff ambush and mass invis in particular, these can be fixed as I laid out above.

While yes you can build to focus on either reflects or stealth, there are synergies and playstyles that encourage the use of both in the same build.

For example Chaos incentivises using staff as well as traited manipulations, and then PU is in there as well (incentivising taking of some stealth skills such as prestige, one utility and even mass invis). Staff playstyle encourages in combat mobility and deception (disregarding effectiveness of said deception) through clones and stealth, which synergises with Duelling and DE and finally Mirage's high evade uptime incentivises the use of Evasive Mirror together with all of the above with IH and ambush attacks.

There's too much interrelated synergy in there to force oneself not to use stealth and reflects together.

[Coulter.2315]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Making MI not a manipulation skill would mean we are no longer able to trait it for reduced CD. That's not a solution.

Just reduce the base CD, it is hardly so OP that it breaks the game.

Having to take a trait to reduce the CD is a balance decision. Choices are good. Don't just remove that choice when there are better ways to solve this problem. Especially because this doesn't solve the problem at all.

You want a solution to a problem, the choices to fix it are 1) remove reflect from the manipulation trait 2) remove mass invis from the manipulation category. Anyone hoping that "reflect" is about to get a massive overhaul in recognising friendly projectiles and not breaking stealth are kidding themselves. I have provided simple fixes that might not be super exciting but they are the best you'll likely get (the other fix is making staff auto/ambush unblockable to ignore the reflect effect).

As said, this still doesn't solve evasive mirror + stealth interaction in general. Unblockable staff auto/ambush could work but I can already smell the whining that will come from pvp and wvw if that happens. But that still leaves enemy projectiles being reflected after evade and breaking stealth, or axe ambush from clones in melee range and other things doing the same.

Tbh who cares about mass invis right now anyway given most people are going to be using Jaunt, Gravity Well or possibly Time Warp in various game modes, even wvw. Yes mass invis traited needs looking at, but evasive mirror is possibly an even bigger issue for mirage's traiting it and trying to use stealth in particular due to the high amount of evade uptime.

I understand that given the slow pace of balancing these kind of fixes may not happen at all - but they still need to be suggested and pointed out because there is always a non-zero chance that a surprise balance patch could come along that fixes friendly projectile reflect and stealth breaking. No need to keep suggestions small due to pessimism - best suggest big changes and see what outcome occurs, even if nothing.

Fair enough, I just thought it would be best to push some practical and easy solutions to try and get some results "fast."

But that's the thing, its not a solution. Even removing MI from the manipulation category wouldn't solve the problem for MI. If you take EM, you can use MI, then dodge through an attack, and still gain mirror, reflecting a projectile and then revealing yourself. Needlessly nerfing MI by removing it from the manipulation category doesn't solve the problem. A solution would be to either make it so that reflecting projectiles doesn't reveal you, or changing these traits to absorb projectiles when you are in stealth (though that would still have negative synergy with staff ambush)

I do not think reveal from reflected attacks is an issue, I think you have a choice to bring reflects or stealth. You seem to feel otherwise but you'll need to explain to me why you think you should be allowed to land attacks from stealth without being revealed. I think reflects are a fun choice to take and wouldn't want them removed, but I think there is a clash with the new staff ambush and mass invis in particular, these can be fixed as I laid out above.

While yes you can build to focus on either reflects or stealth, there are synergies and playstyles that encourage the use of both in the same build.

For example Chaos incentivises using staff as well as traited manipulations, and then PU is in there as well (incentivising taking of some stealth skills such as prestige, one utility and even mass invis). Staff playstyle encourages in combat mobility and deception (disregarding effectiveness of said deception) through clones and stealth, which synergises with Duelling and DE and finally Mirage's high evade uptime incentivises the use of Evasive Mirror together with all of the above with IH and ambush attacks.

There's too much interrelated synergy in there to force oneself not to use stealth and reflects together.

The only synergy you listed would be cd reduction on mass invis from manip trait and PU, which I agree is rubbish. Everything else was a list of personal choices.

You must give me an argument why you should be allowed to land attacks from stealth and not be revealed, I don't think you should.

[bart.3687]

@Coulter.2315 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Making MI not a manipulation skill would mean we are no longer able to trait it for reduced CD. That's not a solution.

Just reduce the base CD, it is hardly so OP that it breaks the game.

Having to take a trait to reduce the CD is a balance decision. Choices are good. Don't just remove that choice when there are better ways to solve this problem. Especially because this doesn't solve the problem at all.

You want a solution to a problem, the choices to fix it are 1) remove reflect from the manipulation trait 2) remove mass invis from the manipulation category. Anyone hoping that "reflect" is about to get a massive overhaul in recognising friendly projectiles and not breaking stealth are kidding themselves. I have provided simple fixes that might not be super exciting but they are the best you'll likely get (the other fix is making staff auto/ambush unblockable to ignore the reflect effect).

As said, this still doesn't solve evasive mirror + stealth interaction in general. Unblockable staff auto/ambush could work but I can already smell the whining that will come from pvp and wvw if that happens. But that still leaves enemy projectiles being reflected after evade and breaking stealth, or axe ambush from clones in melee range and other things doing the same.

Tbh who cares about mass invis right now anyway given most people are going to be using Jaunt, Gravity Well or possibly Time Warp in various game modes, even wvw. Yes mass invis traited needs looking at, but evasive mirror is possibly an even bigger issue for mirage's traiting it and trying to use stealth in particular due to the high amount of evade uptime.

I understand that given the slow pace of balancing these kind of fixes may not happen at all - but they still need to be suggested and pointed out because there is always a non-zero chance that a surprise balance patch could come along that fixes friendly projectile reflect and stealth breaking. No need to keep suggestions small due to pessimism - best suggest big changes and see what outcome occurs, even if nothing.

Fair enough, I just thought it would be best to push some practical and easy solutions to try and get some results "fast."

But that's the thing, its not a solution. Even removing MI from the manipulation category wouldn't solve the problem for MI. If you take EM, you can use MI, then dodge through an attack, and still gain mirror, reflecting a projectile and then revealing yourself. Needlessly nerfing MI by removing it from the manipulation category doesn't solve the problem. A solution would be to either make it so that reflecting projectiles doesn't reveal you, or changing these traits to absorb projectiles when you are in stealth (though that would still have negative synergy with staff ambush)

I do not think reveal from reflected attacks is an issue, I think you have a choice to bring reflects or stealth. You seem to feel otherwise but you'll need to explain to me why you think you should be allowed to land attacks from stealth without being revealed. I think reflects are a fun choice to take and wouldn't want them removed, but I think there is a clash with the new staff ambush and mass invis in particular, these can be fixed as I laid out above.

While yes you can build to focus on either reflects or stealth, there are synergies and playstyles that encourage the use of both in the same build.

For example Chaos incentivises using staff as well as traited manipulations, and then PU is in there as well (incentivising taking of some stealth skills such as prestige, one utility and even mass invis). Staff playstyle encourages in combat mobility and deception (disregarding effectiveness of said deception) through clones and stealth, which synergises with Duelling and DE and finally Mirage's high evade uptime incentivises the use of Evasive Mirror together with all of the above with IH and ambush attacks.

There's too much interrelated synergy in there to force oneself not to use stealth and reflects together.

The only synergy you listed would be cd reduction on mass invis from manip trait and PU, which I agree is rubbish. Everything else was a list of personal choices.

You must give me an argument why you should be allowed to land attacks from stealth and not be revealed, I don't think you should.

It's not you using skills to attack your enemy. It is you causing your enemy to attack itself for a while; a form of counterplay. They should stop firing at you when they see their projectiles get reflected, and right now it does the opposite: your opponents are encouraged to fire to reveal you. You are counterplaying yourself. It makes no sense.

[Virtuality.8351]

I really can't agree with the idea of making certain skills unblockable to avoid reflecting friendly projectile. Such ad hoc solution would only create nightmare in the future for developers in charge of skill balance . Reflection should be updated to stop reflecting all friendly projectiles.

[Curunen.8729]

@Coulter.2315 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Making MI not a manipulation skill would mean we are no longer able to trait it for reduced CD. That's not a solution.

Just reduce the base CD, it is hardly so OP that it breaks the game.

Having to take a trait to reduce the CD is a balance decision. Choices are good. Don't just remove that choice when there are better ways to solve this problem. Especially because this doesn't solve the problem at all.

You want a solution to a problem, the choices to fix it are 1) remove reflect from the manipulation trait 2) remove mass invis from the manipulation category. Anyone hoping that "reflect" is about to get a massive overhaul in recognising friendly projectiles and not breaking stealth are kidding themselves. I have provided simple fixes that might not be super exciting but they are the best you'll likely get (the other fix is making staff auto/ambush unblockable to ignore the reflect effect).

As said, this still doesn't solve evasive mirror + stealth interaction in general. Unblockable staff auto/ambush could work but I can already smell the whining that will come from pvp and wvw if that happens. But that still leaves enemy projectiles being reflected after evade and breaking stealth, or axe ambush from clones in melee range and other things doing the same.

Tbh who cares about mass invis right now anyway given most people are going to be using Jaunt, Gravity Well or possibly Time Warp in various game modes, even wvw. Yes mass invis traited needs looking at, but evasive mirror is possibly an even bigger issue for mirage's traiting it and trying to use stealth in particular due to the high amount of evade uptime.

I understand that given the slow pace of balancing these kind of fixes may not happen at all - but they still need to be suggested and pointed out because there is always a non-zero chance that a surprise balance patch could come along that fixes friendly projectile reflect and stealth breaking. No need to keep suggestions small due to pessimism - best suggest big changes and see what outcome occurs, even if nothing.

Fair enough, I just thought it would be best to push some practical and easy solutions to try and get some results "fast."

But that's the thing, its not a solution. Even removing MI from the manipulation category wouldn't solve the problem for MI. If you take EM, you can use MI, then dodge through an attack, and still gain mirror, reflecting a projectile and then revealing yourself. Needlessly nerfing MI by removing it from the manipulation category doesn't solve the problem. A solution would be to either make it so that reflecting projectiles doesn't reveal you, or changing these traits to absorb projectiles when you are in stealth (though that would still have negative synergy with staff ambush)

I do not think reveal from reflected attacks is an issue, I think you have a choice to bring reflects or stealth. You seem to feel otherwise but you'll need to explain to me why you think you should be allowed to land attacks from stealth without being revealed. I think reflects are a fun choice to take and wouldn't want them removed, but I think there is a clash with the new staff ambush and mass invis in particular, these can be fixed as I laid out above.

While yes you can build to focus on either reflects or stealth, there are synergies and playstyles that encourage the use of both in the same build.

For example Chaos incentivises using staff as well as traited manipulations, and then PU is in there as well (incentivising taking of some stealth skills such as prestige, one utility and even mass invis). Staff playstyle encourages in combat mobility and deception (disregarding effectiveness of said deception) through clones and stealth, which synergises with Duelling and DE and finally Mirage's high evade uptime incentivises the use of Evasive Mirror together with all of the above with IH and ambush attacks.

There's too much interrelated synergy in there to force oneself not to use stealth and reflects together.

The only synergy you listed would be cd reduction on mass invis from manip trait and PU, which I agree is rubbish. Everything else was a list of personal choices.

You must give me an argument why you should be allowed to land attacks from stealth and not be revealed, I don't think you should.

Personal choices maybe, but choices that make sense given how everything else within that choice functions well together and supports itself. You could make analogies with other builds that aside from using the class mechanics of shattering and illusions, everything else is personal preference...

Anyway, yes - I have given thought to potential "cheese" gameplay but overall I don't think it will be much of an issue.

I don't think reflecting while in stealth is overpowered given I can't think of any reflectable skills that will cause a serious problem to the original caster if they hit you while you're in stealth and it happens to reflect while you're in stealth.

Target is broken so the only skills that will continue to hit are channeled skills such as rapid fire, or no-scoping which is not necessary to cater to because either way it is bad luck if you get hit or bad luck for them if you reflect it back at them while in stealth.

For channeled skills opponents will quickly get used to stowing weapons/cancelling the skill on target entering stealth, making it a non-issue.

So overall maintaining stealth while reflecting should be perfectly fine.

[Coulter.2315]

@bart.3687 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Making MI not a manipulation skill would mean we are no longer able to trait it for reduced CD. That's not a solution.

Just reduce the base CD, it is hardly so OP that it breaks the game.

Having to take a trait to reduce the CD is a balance decision. Choices are good. Don't just remove that choice when there are better ways to solve this problem. Especially because this doesn't solve the problem at all.

You want a solution to a problem, the choices to fix it are 1) remove reflect from the manipulation trait 2) remove mass invis from the manipulation category. Anyone hoping that "reflect" is about to get a massive overhaul in recognising friendly projectiles and not breaking stealth are kidding themselves. I have provided simple fixes that might not be super exciting but they are the best you'll likely get (the other fix is making staff auto/ambush unblockable to ignore the reflect effect).

As said, this still doesn't solve evasive mirror + stealth interaction in general. Unblockable staff auto/ambush could work but I can already smell the whining that will come from pvp and wvw if that happens. But that still leaves enemy projectiles being reflected after evade and breaking stealth, or axe ambush from clones in melee range and other things doing the same.

Tbh who cares about mass invis right now anyway given most people are going to be using Jaunt, Gravity Well or possibly Time Warp in various game modes, even wvw. Yes mass invis traited needs looking at, but evasive mirror is possibly an even bigger issue for mirage's traiting it and trying to use stealth in particular due to the high amount of evade uptime.

I understand that given the slow pace of balancing these kind of fixes may not happen at all - but they still need to be suggested and pointed out because there is always a non-zero chance that a surprise balance patch could come along that fixes friendly projectile reflect and stealth breaking. No need to keep suggestions small due to pessimism - best suggest big changes and see what outcome occurs, even if nothing.

Fair enough, I just thought it would be best to push some practical and easy solutions to try and get some results "fast."

But that's the thing, its not a solution. Even removing MI from the manipulation category wouldn't solve the problem for MI. If you take EM, you can use MI, then dodge through an attack, and still gain mirror, reflecting a projectile and then revealing yourself. Needlessly nerfing MI by removing it from the manipulation category doesn't solve the problem. A solution would be to either make it so that reflecting projectiles doesn't reveal you, or changing these traits to absorb projectiles when you are in stealth (though that would still have negative synergy with staff ambush)

I do not think reveal from reflected attacks is an issue, I think you have a choice to bring reflects or stealth. You seem to feel otherwise but you'll need to explain to me why you think you should be allowed to land attacks from stealth without being revealed. I think reflects are a fun choice to take and wouldn't want them removed, but I think there is a clash with the new staff ambush and mass invis in particular, these can be fixed as I laid out above.

While yes you can build to focus on either reflects or stealth, there are synergies and playstyles that encourage the use of both in the same build.

For example Chaos incentivises using staff as well as traited manipulations, and then PU is in there as well (incentivising taking of some stealth skills such as prestige, one utility and even mass invis). Staff playstyle encourages in combat mobility and deception (disregarding effectiveness of said deception) through clones and stealth, which synergises with Duelling and DE and finally Mirage's high evade uptime incentivises the use of Evasive Mirror together with all of the above with IH and ambush attacks.

There's too much interrelated synergy in there to force oneself not to use stealth and reflects together.

The only synergy you listed would be cd reduction on mass invis from manip trait and PU, which I agree is rubbish. Everything else was a list of personal choices.

You must give me an argument why you should be allowed to land attacks from stealth and not be revealed, I don't think you should.

It's not you using skills to attack your enemy. It is you causing your enemy to attack itself for a while; a form of counterplay. They should stop firing at you when they see their projectiles get reflected, and right now it does the opposite: your opponents are encouraged to fire to reveal you. You are counterplaying yourself. It makes no sense.

You are damaging your enemy, you did use your skills/traits otherwise you wouldn't have the reflect effect. Your description of "they should stop firing when they see their projectile is reflected" is missing something, if they see their projectile is reflected then there is already a packet of damage about to hit them so you are about to be revealed anyway.

Let's be honest mesmers do not care about "counterplay" or "encouraging foes to fire and reveal you" (this is what actual counterplay is btw), they care about going stealth then dodging or blinking or that stealth being MI and immediately getting revealed - this makes me roll my eyes or use an expletive too. You can build around this problem a bit by not taking lots of reflect in your stealth heavy setup but certain bits obviously overlap.

As for staff ambush/auto being made unblockable it is the "go to fix" Anet has used again and again when reflects interfere with how a skill was designed, you may say it is not a long term solution but they've been using it for years.

[Curunen.8729]

They'd have to make axe ambush unblockable too as it has also revealed me - especially when using axe torch and prestige before dodge with IH traited.

But anyway @Coulter, I do see your points and would be satisfied with any proposed changes that alleviate this problem in any way.

[Virtuality.8351]

Mechanically, reflection redirects projectiles back toward their original source and change the source of projectile to the reflector. Therefore, a mesmer reflecting an arrow from a ranger is the same as a mesmer firing an arrow at a ranger in our current system. This makes reflection prone to reveal effect and retaliation.

Unfortunately, as far as I know, there is no skill that causes direct damage ignores reveal effect and retaliation. Specific mechanics will likely have to be made in order to fix the problem--that is to say the developers are informed and convinced it is a problem that needs to be addressed.

[Curunen.8729]

@Virtuality.8351 said:Mechanically, reflection redirects projectiles back toward their original source and change the source of projectile to the reflector. Therefore, a mesmer reflecting an arrow from a ranger is the same as a mesmer firing an arrow at a ranger in our current system. This makes reflection prone to reveal effect and retaliation.

Unfortunately, as far as I know, there is no skill that causes direct damage ignores reveal effect and retaliation. Specific mechanics will likely have to be made in order to fix the problem--that is to say the developers are informed and convinced it is a problem that needs to be addressed.

Yes, thank you honestly - that is helpful because I'm a total layman when it comes to actual implementation of these ideas, so have no idea to what extent things like this may or may not be possible.

At least as you said it is good to raise the issue and provide idealistic and realistic potential solutions which enables the devs to decide what they want to do with it, if they want to or can do anything about it.