Let Us Count The Ways

So I come back after a while to play the shiny new expansion, and lo! My favorite class/build combo has been nerfed beyond belief! Now I remember why I left.

The DS degeneration nerf is a fundamental nerf to every aspect of the class, Power, Condi, Reaper or Core. Shroud lasts fully half as long as it used to, and every part of the not-Scourge necromancer has been broken by it. Every trait line has numerous traits that are obviously designed with the intention of spending prolonged time in Shroud. Lets make a list of the tactics, builds, traits, synergies and so forth that no longer function because of this insane nerf. And I'll put in a bonus at the end for ppl that don't know about it yet! The law of unintended consequences is striking hard and hilariously with this nerf.

For reference: 5% per second LF degeneration means:-20s maximum shroud time (if taking no hits).
-721 HP lost per second in shroud (with my PVE gear).-7,210 self-inflicted damage if you use shroud for 10 seconds.-Imagine how much other classes would cry if their stability/stun break/defense skills did 7k damage to themselves.

[builds]-Unyielding Blast (vuln on shroud 1) + Decimate Defenses (+crit per vuln stack) + Reapers Onsaulght (shroud 1 speed increase). This is the core synergy combo for any power reaper build, turning the Shroud Autoattack into a chain of death. GS is a nice weapon, but it doesn't do good with sustained dps over time; that's where this combo comes in. Due to the massively reduced time in shroud, the uptime on using the autoattack is basically null, and the entire Power Reaper DPS cycle is gutted. Yes, that's right, power reaper DPS is WORSE then it was before a patch that was intended to buff it.-Reaper's Onslaught + Dhuumfire. The one and only spec for a non-gs condi reaper. No longer viable in any gameplay mode.-Condi Reaper (Soul Spiral combos). Still works, but at very high cost, due to loss of LF during the skill combo. Survivability nerfed hard.

[soul Reaping]-Dhuumfire. There's no shroud time to waste on autoattacking anymore, making this trait basically irrelevant.-Vital Persistance. Useless. The +vitality is nice, but not worth a trait slot, and the shroud cooldowns are 100% useless. There's not enough time in shroud to use any skills twice, even with the cooldown reduction, and with the massive LF degeneration, you won't be going back into shroud again any time soon because your LF pool will be gone and it takes too long to recover. There is zero value to this trait.-Unyielding Blast. There's not enough time in shroud to waste on autoattacks, so there's no longer any value to this trait.-Strength of Undeath. The LF increase adds only 3 seconds to shroud, and LF depletes so fast that the damage increase is only active if you basically never enter shroud at all.

[spite]Reapers Might: Not enough time left in shroud to autoattack and stack might from this trait. Useless.

[blood Magic]Last Rites: This trait was valuable because a Necro could often be the last one standing in a group situation. This is how the class was designed - with an alternate HP pool to guaruntee a long time on the field. With that HP pool now cut in half, the necro is just as likely to be downed as other group members. The main necro support role - using their superior durability to revive downed teammates- is thus gutted.Unholy Martyr: Credit where credit is due, this one is actually a buff. With LF generation being supremely valuable now, and flashing in and out of shroud as often as possible being a requirement, the LF generation from this trait shines like gold. I wish it wasn't required.

[Death Magic]Armored Shroud: No longer useful useful due to reduced shroud uptime.Shrouded Removal: Shroud time is so short that you will generaly get no more then 2 procs of this trait per activation, aka removing two conditions over 6 seconds. Pathetic.Deadly Strength: More power while in shroud. No longer valuable because of reduced time spent in shroud.Unholy Sanctuary: With the pitiful amount of time we spend in shroud now, the healing is useless. With the increased difficulty of maintaining a decent LF pool, the death prevention mechanic is vastly reduced in usefulness.

[Curses]Nothing seems to be especially nerfed here, although I do notice an increased emphasis on entering and exiting shroud. Unfortunately, the rest of the class is not designed to work that way.

[Combos]Soul Spiral + any Field. (condi stacking) Standing still in a field long enough to get the full benefit of this is extremely costly, since that basicalyl forces you to take a couple hits. This combo still works, but using it will nearly exhaust your LF pool. Also, it's much harder to do again when the CD is ready, since you have so much more LF to regain and no additional ways to get it.Shroud Exit+Burst: GS 2 or Axe 2 can get massive crits after leaving shroud, thanks to Unyielding Blast + Decimate Defenses. A strong combo for finishing a target or punishing them for kiting your shroud. No longer viable. (see unyielding blast above)Axe/GS 3/Focus 4 + 1x Reaper Auto Chain + Exeuctioner's Scythe: Another Unyielding Blast/Decimate combo, this is devastating combo with a nearly guarunteed crit at the end. No longer fuctions due to inadequate time to use autoattack.RShroud 2 + RShroud 3 + RShroud 5: A last ditch move to finish a wounded target who is kiting your shroud. RS3 grants stability to cover the move, RS2 closes the gap, and RS5 delivers the blow. No longer enough time to execute the combo.

TL;DR - To preserve the LF degen change, Anet will have to overhaul ALL OF THESE THINGS. Seems to me like a very high development cost to a single change... maybe they should just revert it.

And now the bonus fact! Death Shroud is, within the game engine, a modified version of the Downed state. It works both ways! So the 25% boost they gave us to Shroud in exchange for gutting everythign that's not Scourge, also applies to Downed skills! Oops! Somebody's playtesting time shows. A Downed necro is now an ABSOLUTE MURDER MACHINE. Especially when traited. Downed 1 does so much damage that it heals you faster then Downed 4! And you don't have to stop dpsing to use it, or get interrupted from taking damage, or have a cooldown! It's COMPLETELY OVERPOWERED!

So here's the plan. Abuse the holy heck out of the downed state. DPS bosses while downed if you can. Make people cry in pvp. Generate a storm of complaints! And DON'T TELL ANYONE outside this thread (or a repost of it). That way, if Anet fixes it, we'll know they came here and read about all the other problems so they could learn about that one, and we'll have proof that they are ignoring us.

And now, to be constructive, today's episode of SO YOU WANT TO OVERHAUL SHROUD?

Step 1: Revert the change or even eliminate degeneration entirely. Bear with me here, it makes sense.Step 2: REMOVE the "generate LF from nearby deaths" mechanic. This will eliminate spikes and unpredictability from shroud, and address the salty tears caused by a Necro being an unstoppable death (heh) machine fueled by the victories of others. With this change, the regeneration of shroud is 100% tied to player action (good for gameplay, and counterable in pvp) and directly targetable by adjusting skills (good for developers).Step 3: Rebalance LF generation through skills as needed to achieve design goals.

Most of what you say only affect "reaper" not necromancer (the death shroud decay is still 3%) or scourge.

The true deadly hit to the shroudmancer was the fact that they removed the trait that reduced shroud cool down. The loss of those 3 second reduction on the cool down hurt way more than the shroud decay.

The down state of the necromancer have always been a cheat and was abused as such way before. It's just that it's quite a tedious gameplay.

welcome to the nov. 07. 2017 - patch

i have one simple question... to that one sentence from the OP:"Yes, that's right, power reaper DPS is WORSE then it was before a patch that was intended to buff it"what scenario are you speaking of? because in pve the dps is better with the patches (IF you use the correct builds and rotations. popping in and out of shroud, using axe 2 and gs 2 on cd with weapon swaps and such).and in pvp the burst is also better/stronger. (speaking of "dps" in pvp is missleading anyway i think)

i somewhat agree with many things you say (to a certain degree. not fully tho). but the dps ... nope you're wrong

edit:just in case you meant pve here is the dteailed explanation:prior to the big food patch, necro was able to pull 28k dps on a full valkyrie power reaper with wurm runes. after the change to foods (?furious? maintenance oil changed from 10% of health gets converted to ferocity into something "converts x something into concentration") it dropped to 24k-25k dps with full berserker+scholar instead of valkyrie+wurm.

with the latest patch power reaper is able to pull 27k-28k dps again.but: grace of the land got deleted aswell. so everybody misses 10% damage now.what i am saying is, that the dps increase on power reaper is even bigger than you imagine. because with the loss of GotL reaper would have dropped to about 22k dps but the changes pulled it to 27k dps (28k on a hybrid tho). that is a huge increase of damage.it is still not enough for most raiders.not enough for meta fractal cm's.not enough for a broad base of players.(not enough grp-support for most scenarios.)but its not so uber terribad either. all we can hope for is that the changes were a start in the right direction. improvements appreciated (!!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhxU0NFqQS4 watch it for golem dps reasons, if you want.

p.s. i would still love to have more shroud uptime back :(

DPS while solo or in a group that for some reason can't keep 100% vuln uptime for you. Not all situations are as forgiving as the golem.

@Dadnir.5038 said:Most of what you say only affect "reaper" not necromancer (the death shroud decay is still 3%) or scourge.

The true deadly hit to the shroudmancer was the fact that they removed the trait that reduced shroud cool down. The loss of those 3 second reduction on the cool down hurt way more than the shroud decay.

The down state of the necromancer have always been a cheat and was abused as such way before. It's just that it's quite a tedious gameplay.

Didn't know normal DS was still 3%. Still nerfed a bit though since you can't get it to 2% with the trait anymore.

Yes most of it applies to reaper. I tried a couple core necro builds before posting and still got better results from reaper, so that's what I'm still running atm. Also, agreed with the loss of 7s, absolutely huge, just as bad as the degen nerf, thanks for mentioning it.

My build works well I went Soul Reaping, Spite, Reaper. Make sure you trait for Signets, and Spectral abilities, everything else Meta.

Utilities Shout Heal or Signet, Spectral Armor, Signet of Spite and Undeath, Cold Shoulder Elite Shout.

I spend at 2/3rds of my time in Shroud, the longer you're in Shroud the higher the DPS.

@Rhyse.8179 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Most of what you say only affect "reaper" not necromancer (the death shroud decay is still 3%) or scourge.

The true deadly hit to the shroudmancer was the fact that they removed the trait that reduced shroud cool down. The loss of those 3 second reduction on the cool down hurt way more than the shroud decay.

The down state of the necromancer have always been a cheat and was abused as such way before. It's just that it's quite a tedious gameplay.

This is not entirely true, with the traited signet of undeath, technically, in death shroud, you achieve 2% degen again. The bonus being that now you can trait for spectral alongside which reinforce your survivability compared to pre-patch in a core build. Now, this kind of build ain't that great but... whatever ;)

@Rhyse.8179 said:DPS while solo or in a group that for some reason can't keep 100% vuln uptime for you. Not all situations are as forgiving as the golem.

dont get your answer really.

but look at actual raiding numbers if the golem is trash in your opinionhttps://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats

look at DH vs power reaper in real fights... compare them. they are equal if played well.sure condi dps is still a lot better (on all professions) and weaver + holo are still the #1 in terms of dps. but power reaper is not as bad as you described it. its dps is not worse than pre-patch. thats all i am saying

It might be just me but what's diplayed on raidar feel... wrong... For example we got scourge as a "support" providing just a few might stack while we got reaper as dps (both condi and power) providing vampiric aura... Blood magic condi reaper... Am I the only one that feel something went wrong somewhere? I can somehow understand blood magic power reaper but blood magic condi reaper as a dps spec? I can understand why the popularity of those builds is really low. I can also see a soulbeast support with no spirit equiped only providing maybe healing, fury and protection?

Can we really take this seriously? There is obviously a need for a bit more controle over where they put each specs. A druid that provide all offensive support shouldn't even be listed among the dps specs. Same goes for chrono. As for a scourge that maybe grant barrier and a bit of might, is it even worth listing it as support? I'm pretty sure dps tools can also record heal/second, maybe it would be good to add such data to the support... etc.

My problem with this tool is that it feel like a huge mess and I'm not sure anything can be deduced from such a mess. The only thing that don't actually look messy is the popularity of the build which give a good idea of how much a build is used. Chrono and druid show an overwhelming presence alongside condi banner berserk while condi soulbeast, power weaver and power dragonhunter show that they are favored as dps. The point is that they are the specs that give the most data making their results probably more accurate than the result of all other build. Everything under 30% popularity isn't really significant statistically.