Fantastic Dragons and Where to Find Them

[anninke.7469]

@Gryphon.2875 said:

@anninke.7469 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

They're not corrupted, ergo, they still have free will. Even if that will has been broken by conventional means. Like how torture will break a human, and a person will serve an enemy if it meant ending the pain and remaining alive.

Well, torture is exactly how I see what Mordy was doing to those who tried to resist it.

I think we probably won't agree on this matter, because our ideas of free will are too different. If the options are

X or suffer/die,

I don't see any free will in making the choice.

Technically, that is still a choice, because you can choose to suffer/die, and some would, out of honor, stubbornness, spite, strength of will, etc.

It is a choice only if you have the strength to actually choose. If you're too weak to make your choice happen, then you have no choice.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Adding to what Gryphon said:

@anninke.7469 said:The rest was forced and what they had is not free will but "sense of self" (excuse my lack of clearer terms, can't come up with anything better) and a certain level of autonomy.

Having autonomy means having free will though, since having autonomy means being able to choose and act for yourself - that's what free will ultimately is: the ability to make your own decisions and choices.

It seems you're agreeing with me, just not the terms I use.

Or I'm not able to express my thoughts clearly enough. Happens a lot even without language barrier...

I'll try making a physical analogy. Someone apparently much stronger tells a group of guys to get in a cage:Guy A - gets in right away because he likes the cage.Guy B - is talked into getting in.Guy C - doesn't want to get in but is scared enough to do so.Guy D - gets in after being beaten up.Guy E - refuses to get in but is overpowered and shoved in the cage.Guy F - resists more than expected but after being tortured passes out and is put in the cage.Guy G - is strong enough to not get put in the cage by any means and manages to get away.

Only A and G got to act on their free will about getting in the cage, B somewhat (or at least he believes so). The rest were put in the cage against their free will.Everyone, except G, is in the cage. Sure, they can move around a bit, they can even decide whether to sit, stand, sleep or cry for help, but they can't decide where to go and they can't leave the cage without being let out. And that is the "certain level of autonomy" I was talkin about, which I do not consider free will.Maybe guy A could be said to still have (some of) his free will, because he entered voluntarily and likes it in there. But if he changes his mind, he's still in the cage and can't get out.

Alright, that's probably the best I can do. By now my brain's so overheated that Mordy would burst in flames if he tried to mess with it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

I think calling it a "cage" is a very poor analogy. Because by all indication, they're still actually in control of their bodies and their actions. This isn't like the branded or risen, who's souls are trapped in a body who's thoughts aren't even their own. Some Mordrem Guard may be in a lucid state, which seems to be the case for that Punisher in Buried Insights, but based on typical Mordrem Guard and sylvari dialogue that isn't the norm at all, and even in a lucid state you're still making the choices even if influenced. A person who's high still has their free will, after all.

So to use your analogy setup it'd be closer to:

Guy A - follows orders because he likes having a purpose. Free will.Guy B - is talked into following orders. Free will.Guy C - doesn't want to follow orders but is scared of the consequences of not doing so. Free will under pressure.Guy D - follows orders after being beaten up. Free will under pressure.Guy E - resists but is forced to follow orders. Dragon corruption, not Mordrem Guard.Guy F - resists following orders, gets tortured to passing out, then still refuses orders after regaining consciousness. Not a Mordrem Guard.Guy G - is strong enough to not succumb to torture. Not a Mordrem Guard.

The Commander, incidentally, falls under "Guy F" by your setup. They actually do pass out in Bitter Harvest - this proves that "torture to passing out" does not result in conversion. Meanwhile, Canach falls under "Guy G".

Meanwhile, "Guy E" simply doesn't exist within the context of Mordrem Guard/sylvari, because there there simply is no "is forced into the cage" here because that would be dragon corruption, where free will is stripped from them. This is intended to be the key difference between fighting Mordrem Guard and fighting other dragon minions and why sylvari are despised during and after HoT.

The rest all succumb by choice - it might be a choice under pressure, and by law it would be excusable in almost every case such is involved, but it's still a choice. One taken out of self-preservation. It is still free will. They choose to give in rather than continue being tortured.

And unfortunately, we do not know if Mordrem Guard could revert while hearing Mordremoth's call. ArenaNet never bothered to even attempt to explore that avenue in the very short, story-chopped-up campaign that was HoT. But the fact that they can break free after being separated from Mordremoth's whispers is proof that any hypothetical "cage" is unlocked and can be opened from the inside.

[anninke.7469]

Well, I disagree on guy E being a dragon corruption example. Dragon corruption would be "gets his brain killed and is stuffed in with NO WILL (or mind) AT ALL" or "is artificially created in the cage".

Orders are not the analogy I went for, because that's a behaviour result of various means of pressure. I needed a physical result so I went with the cage. Once in, you can't influence where it goes and you can't leave until let out. It can even be a pretty large and comfy cage and some might like it in there but they're still moved in a direction they have no control over. And even if they can move a lot in there or have a drink or two or read a book or just sleep, they're still not free and if the cage is set to crash into their family's house or run over their children, they can't prevent it.

I see Mordremoth's will as such a cage, only it's for mind. Well sure, MG can decide when and where they set camps, what they defend or when they attack. But they can't decide to not kill their siblings/friends/former allies. A mental cage is still a cage.

But my main problem in this matter is the term (ha, you were probably right after all!) free will. I believe that my view of what is considered free will is very different from yours. Which is why we probably won't reach agreement even though only in this one aspect.

Also - curse you, lack of official canonic information on this kitten matter!

Oh, and I think I should apologize to the OP for hijacking their topic... Sorry, I got carried away :)