Magix Keleton.9083

I guess the shock that I experienced was more like... Cantha moved on without us, y'know? Movement of the World showed us that the trauma experienced by Cantha through the Jade Wind, Factions and Winds of Change was deep enough for the Ministry to not only claw their way back to prominence, but their resurgence again led to a massive systemic upheaval. 'Movement' was such an exciting doc back in the day as anet laid the groundwork for GW2 by littering the landscape with a veritable armoury's worth of chekhov's guns. The shock was that this particular one went off ages ago, and that's exciting too. In this case, I think the pay-off was worth it.

For my experience, I felt like EoD at least let me linger a bit. The revelation of how much Cantha had changed was a slap in the face, not so much as an insult but a complete shock, but since the characters we followed through the narrative were mostly from Cantha, rediscovering the modern iteration through their perspective and for myself was exciting. Cantha's character as a nation for me was reflected in my interactions with both them and the setting, so I would call it an improvement. Contrasted with the PoF campaign, and you can see why I thought it was... Lacklustre.

Awakening a dead topic, but this is probably still gonna be my answer. I feel like using Balthazar to kickstart the narrative for an Elonian expansion sacrificed the "soul" of the desert in a way. It made for a novel narrative and we got some interesting god-stuff out of it, but for me it was like the setting became little more than window dressing in service of the plot. I just felt like the setting of Nightfall had so much character by comparison to Path of Fire, which had to make room for the Forged, the Awakened and the Branded as antagonists (with a guest appearance from Vlast). I feel like it lost something special by making it about 'a story that takes place in the desert', rather than 'a story about a desert conflict', where it's the setting that shines, not the narrative. Just saying, all the elements were already there. That's probably just me though. I hear that people loved PoF and LWS4.

Oh! I was responding to Greyhawk in particular, but I appreciate your additions to the discussion! (Quote-in-quote) So the priestess was able to revive survivors, which implies to me that she gathered and tended to them, rather than restoring petrified naga by some mechanism. Hmm, square one. Okay, I think I'm following. I may have taken it as a given that Kurzicks, Luxons and "Imperial" Canthans were each ethnically distinct groups. From Major Events - Late Pre-Imperial Era, An Empire Divided I think this is reflected in how the Kaineng sprawl reaches down the Canthan coastline, offshore from Shing Jea (which is the modern seat of influence now, so... /shrug?)

Ah, that's a good point. I missed the 'jade trader' detail and hyper-focussed on the pottery aspect. I haven't been able to log in for some time to examine the in-game context of the Observation documents, so I assumed it may have been some kind of Xunlai Jade holdover scrap or something. Makes sense if Joon wrote it too, since she seems like the kind of person who'd describe power output in terms of 'factors'. Looks like I didn't read her History entry well enough and was just looking for a way to figure out how Chul-Moo came into the picture. My mistake 😅 Yeah, now that I think about it, without a provable connection between jade, Silver Dawn Mining Co. and the Park family wealth, Chul-Moo could've just as easily come onboard Hyeoksin Jade as an ambitious investor. Yep Joon just calls him a "brilliant businessman", so I guess that's all it is up until they part ways. Still, even if his Jade Brotherhood plays an antagonistic role and puts out highly suspect product, they're delivering on jade tech priced to an affordable market. They could've just as easily made bad gear and jacked up the price anyway. Wait, did divine resurrection magic work on people affected by the Jade Wind? I'm having a hard time following your full line of inquiry (apologies) but I feel like I might've often wondered the same thing during the events of GW1. If the Jade Wind petrified animal life in Echovald and did ??? to people on the Jade Sea at the time, (any transmutation? they might've just been stranded, having to trek back to civilisation on foot with any supplies they might've had) how did those cultures repopulate the area in the time before Factions? With credit to Kalavier, I have a vague memory of resurrections not being 100% effective, but that would still leave a significant portion of the population dead, and that's all I can recall. And it makes sense that Echovald and the Jade Sea would've been inhospitable for the first few years without persistent access to food and water, however the distinct peoples gradually made a resurgence somehow. That said, if you could point us to the old lore docs you're referring to, I might be able to get a better insight. The Jade Wind appeared to have a noticeable radial limit before petering out at the bordering mountain ranges, so I'm willing to accept that 'for the plot'. To add to that, my read is that Canthan southern expansion west of the central mountain range was established -before- the events of the Jade Wind and at this stage, the three states would've been at a place of relative peace. It's hard to imagine the southern cape would've been as densely populated by Factions without there already being a significant Canthan presence between the mountains and the sea. I can only speculate that the Kurzicks and Luxons probably enjoyed a period of little outside interference or imperial territorial incursion as a condition of vassal status before Shiro popped off with the Jade Wind. I'm inclined to agree. A hegemony? Idk. Well hang on, while the Charr High Legions might mirror the real world Roman Empire in a lot of respects, I don't think the modern iteration has the characteristics of one (at least without a recognised head of state, but that's my take). From Charr Government Although Smodur held the Claw of the Khan-Ur before he doth be smote during IBS, he wasn't recognised as the Khan-Ur as he didn't "legally" qualify (charr have a constitution, I guess?). Guess that's why he got brazen and kinda forgot how to be a diplomat... ANYHOO I'd say the High Legions function more as a strategic alliance without a recognised head of state. They're prone to fractious infighting which makes the whole 'empire' deal rather tenuous. But if I had a pet wish, it would be for Rytlock's retirement to end up with him as Khan-Ur, lol. Not to mention, we now have a broken and listless Frost Legion who might end up trying to negotiate a re-entry into the legions in the future. Either that or it's Flame Legion 2.0 time, babyyyy. But without any more information, it's just as likely that the lands stretching east of New Kaineng City aren't under direct imperial control. Bear in mind that while the imperial seat technically holds claim to the Echovald Wilds, it's mostly populated by fringe extremists in open rebellion, with a giant corpo dumping ground right in the middle of it and a non-government organisation keeping the peace (the Kestrals). Cantha might claim it, but they don't control it. There's more evidence to suggest that regaining control from the Unchained Risen in Raisu Palace to the north is a higher priority target for the empire in the interim based on notes scattered around Old Kaineng, etc.

I personally agree that the Canthan Empire probably doesn't have a lot of incentive to explore the extremities of their territory (which is a pretty broad claim, I know, but I think we've circled a lot around how much the empire as an institution has been able to feasibly control the continent after centuries of systemic upheaval. Which for us, I think the obvious answer at this point is that they probably haven't). What I'd point out as key to this is that the dominant Canthan presence in Dragon's End is Xunlai Jade, a Canthan-owned (registered?) corporate entity, with their security team acting as a de facto police force in certain cases. Begging the question for another day maybe, do the Canthan ministries have a standing army/defence force? Is that MinSec, who are also cops? (Not to say military don't sometimes play a law enforcement role in some societies, but it'd be nifty to know if there's a distinction in this case). I guess the point I was trying to get to was that while Xunlai Jade took over operations at Jade Quarry, I'm not aware if there's any information available to suggest that they've expanded out as far as the Aurios Mines, since that seems like another prime location for XJ to resume historical mining operations. Although, it's not as close to the Harvest Temple, so it's possible the jade's not as enriched... Hmm. Regardless, without any further evidence, it's hard to be certain where the modern limits of the empire lie, but I think it's a cool opportunity to see how the seed of conflict sown during EoD between the imperial institutions of Cantha and Xunlai Jade pan out in future as this section of the world quite literally becomes a new frontier. Spent some extra time writing this, because it occurred to me that XJ will want to start looking for new sources of enriched jade now that scarcity may become a problem. Ended up noting some tidbits while trying to track the history of 'the dragonjade rush', so to speak. The first Observation (under Books, I'm not sure how to link to article subtitles) from Weight of the World dated 1820CC notes what I currently believe to be the discovery of enriched jade (dragon jade) by an unnamed author who mentions the peculiar jade in a batch of their "mother's" payload. Which I'm connecting to this Mining Rights Transfer Document dated 1830CC, transferring Jade Sea mining rights to Xunlai Jade which had been incorporated just the year before as a partnership between Yu Joon and Park Chul-Moo. My working theory is that the Silver Dawn Mining Group mentioned in the permit was owned by the Park family, and that the 'mother' referred to in the first document is the Matron Park. So Cantha's had about 25 years to slowly build an unsustainable, empire-wide reliance on dragon jade, which might've just crashed.

Yes yes! We can surmise that Knut's a wise old bear who understands the bigger picture and recognises his responsibility to the Norn community writ large (in fact, his wiki entry makes for some interesting reading in this regard -> Knut Whitebear). From his viewpoint, he's absolutely got a decent rationale for keeping all hands on deck in the face of an emergency (ie, the Molten Alliance). But I kinda get the sense that this is the place where people's distaste for Braham started, because Braham doesn't "get it", and... I say, that's okay. Braham didn't grow up in Hoelbrak, or at least I can't be sure he's spent any significant amount of time there, so he grew up away from a culture that had adapted to become softly pluralistic (pluralistic, but not strictly hierarchical, community leaders are recognised, not institutionalised) by necessity. So Braham's frustration is palpable. He may think, "if a Norn from Hoelbrak heeds the call to come and help defend Cragstead, they should be allowed to!" From his experience of traditional Norn culture and growing up in the boonies, the Norn are strong enough to go wherever, whenever they want! From "Olaf and Ogden" Knut says no, we need everyone here. He's a direct descendent of Asgeir, whose journal from IBS gives this decision so much more context in retrospect, and it's for this reason that Hoelbrak exists. Knut's got higher priorities to maintain, but they're ones that Braham just can't internalise, so... He chucks a wobbly and acts like a frustrated teenager, and if I'd given more stock to what I recall from GWEN, I'd probably agree with him. But for all intents and purposes, that's what Braham is. A big Norn kid who's never left home before, and whose contentious introduction shows us that his expectations don't match his experience. Feels very familiar, personally. A lot of times in my adventures with Braham, I've had myself thinking, "come on Braham, get on board already", but I don't think I've ever been turned off by his character. Having played through Flame and Frost now though, I definitely feel a little more forgiving, if not affectionate. I promise I was only being hyperbolic here 😅But it does touch on the spirit of my comment 😛 As an independent actor, the Commander's the perfect person to ask, kind of like if the A-Team was one person. I love this. And from the page history, this NPC's been in the game since 2013. And they have an associated trinket which is a heart-shaped locket containing their photograph. Lol. I might've been disappointed once with how the Norn have changed culturally between games, but through this conversation and given context from IBS, I kinda get it now. So inadvertently, thanks!

These taken together got me thinking... It seems pretty unlikely that the Luxons hadn't explored the south Jade Sea beyond the expanse. But perhaps breaking the Luxon's culture had a direct impact on Luxon history. Okay, okay, stating the obvious with that one, but what I mean is: it's my hypothesis at time of writing that as a nomad culture, the most predominant form of record-keeping among the clans was more likely to have been an oral tradition. Many of the major myths of the Luxons such as the Three Queens may have persisted and spread through the clans via events such as the yearly Convocation, but throughout the rest of the year, smaller clan migrations would've typically made traditional methods of record-keeping quite cumbersome. Perhaps not completely non-existent, but less thorough. So the best records of the Luxons may have been completely erased along with their culture during the purges, and to a modern Canthan, they may as well have simply never existed. It seems like one of those things where what we know (or don't know, as well, I'm curious to see what became of the Outcasts) conflicts with what the NPC's know.

I took a break when LWS1 started and missed the release of Flame and Frost, but was back in time for Origins of Madness (naturally very confused). So playing the rerelease of LWS1 was a bit of fresh air now meeting Braham and Rox for the first time, and I gotta say... It made me feel way more sympathy and connection to both characters than at any point in the last few years (although Rox feeling disillusioned by the Legions and joining the Olmakhan is pretty aww :3). It was also great development for their respective peoples as a window into Charr and Norn societies. What was really highlighted to me in Braham's case though was how much Norn society has changed in the interim of GW1 and 2, and I felt like Braham himself notices this difference having grown up in another stead away from Hoelbrak (which I maintain should be called a Great-Hold rather than a city!) Rather than arriving at the Great Lodge and appealing to the congregated Norn to act as individuals, he's forced to beg Knut Whitebeard to dispatch an organised force in the defence of Cragstead instead, which Knut is naturally hesitant to do. No wonder he was frustrated. At this point, the commander is more Norn than the Norn, just sorta being like, "yeah, that sounds good, I'll come crack some skulls". That said, it makes sense for the Norn to have formed some semblance of an organised society in the wake of their northern exodus, so I can't be too mad. In conclusion, Braham's had his ups and downs that have frustrated me, but I don't blame his character. Should he have died a hero's death? I say yes, but some of these ideas about letting him hang up his mace and become a spiritual leader among the Norn sound like a fantastic way for him to develop in his maturity. Even if the community doesn't adore him, he can be my 'new Ogden'.

Yeah, that's what the plaque seems to imply, right? That Dragon's End has been known by that name for a long time... Agreed, absolutely. Would like to learn that there's a "something down there's gonna eat me" reason for having left the region unexplored. As a former Luxon, the Dragon's End map left me a little underwhelmed compared to Echovald (which was just GORGEOUS) since it's something of a meta-map by necessity. Though I'm left positively champing at the bit to explore the northern and eastern Jade Sea going forward.

Since the forced annexation of Kurzick and Luxon territories by Emperor Usoku in 1637CC, the Empire has effectively controlled the lands previously held by Luxons for roughly the last 200 years of modern history. So in the intervening years following the decline of the Ministry of Purity, it's unlikely that regions like Unwaking Waters would be considered part of a distinct vassal state. As by that point, they'd already been absorbed into the empire for 100 years. However while Unwaking Waters was the furthest south Luxon controlled lands by GW1's standard, it's true that it wasn't the furthest east. With Silent Surf on the south-east cusp of this land, it'll be interesting to explore future releases to see whether the Canthan Empire was inclined to maintain a presence in the east Jade Sea at all since the Ministry's purges, or if Dragon's End has been more aptly named that I thought.

Is there something in particular I should be looking at in regards to Shiro that you wanted to point out...? That the naming of Dragon's End has little to do with Soo-Won is actually what sparked my interest. The Ministry of Archives have erected a plaque that's found in the Xinrae's Wharf area commemorating an historic event from the immediate post-Jade-Wind era. However the events of Factions never (to my knowledge) made mention of Dragon's End as an identifiable region of the Jade Sea (regardless of whether we could go there or not, happy to be wrong). https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Historic_Plaque It's true that the stretch of land between the Jade Quarry and the Harvest Temple was unexplored at that time (by players, since Xinrae may well have explored this area regardless of what it was called), and it's this stretch that makes up the bulk of modern Dragon's End. But this plaque has been erected some time in the ~100 year span following the collapse of the Ministry of Purity, and it's at the point of installation that this region of the Jade Sea is now recognised as 'Dragon's End'. Is there a non-speculative reason as to why it was named that though, without referring to meta sources that make sense to us? If we were going to give in to speculation though, I'd say it's because this geographic location probably rests at the periphery of the Empire of the Dragon's influence (like a tail, heh). But counter to that too, is the notion that Dragon's End hosts the location of the Tyrian plane's origin, and arguably the Dragon Empire's raison d'etre at Kuan Jun. So it's more like a Dragon's Beginning? Poignant. edit: ooh, also I found this: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Xunlai_Security_Update Fa diverts his attention to containment in 'Jade Sea', rather than 'the Jade Sea', or better yet, 'Dragon's End'.

I understand why it was named that way thematically in terms of gameplay, but I don't quite follow why the Ministry of Archives would install commemorative plaques following the fall of the Ministry of Purity, when Soo-Won only recently retreated there to die...? Is there textual evidence outside of speculation that I haven't picked up on?