[WTF is Anet doing to WvW?]

59 minutes ago, ascii.1369 said:

Kill trading would not be an issue if they finally implement rewards for winning the match at the same time. But i guess you are right that there might be a risk of some toxic behaviour regarding spawn camping and such things. Then again that already happens in one sided matches already.

I'm for it either way because players are there for the game mode itself should still be rewarded. But there does need to be an upgrade or shake up of setting and structure at some point or matches are going to simmer down to the active squads queuing one map and leaving the rest empty. That would still be an active game mode, but for who. You can't pay me to spend most of my 20-30 min after work map hopping or sitting a queue to miss the best large brawls and whatever else. I'll be honest, taking camps and that kind of kitten isn't what I'm logging in for with limited time and no reward is making that fun with our current maps and structure. 

[Riddle me this....]

6 hours ago, urd.8306 said:

My impression from playing mmorpg is that there is a lot of players that have fun running over  a smaller number / weaker (noob) of players. It's pretty similar in WoW for example where you often meet full 40 man groups farming randoms in Alterac Valley for an hour without playing the objectives.

I don't know where the fun is in that because I'd rather lose a match and improve instead of never improving and winning.

That's true. There's also an element of people being familiar with map indicators and how things normally roll out and people like to get to the action quick. Sometimes even when there's only hidden tags on, I can scope out the radar and how people are leaving Keep, and I'll know we have numbers attacking a Keep or making a quick SMC attempt. I'm probably not joining squads or groups but I'm definitely getting some of that and I better hurry before it wraps up. I don't get a huge amount of time to play. 

[WTF is Anet doing to WvW?]

15 hours ago, ascii.1369 said:

Can you maybe explain what you mean by "people who are more into gimmicks to secure those rewards routinely". Not sure I understand what that would specifically entail. If the rewards are tailored towards forcing people to engage enemy players I'm not sure there is much that can be done to cheese the system, given that those enemies will fight back.

Like the people who only show up for events or whatever that pay out a lot more. Requiring a stomp will get some people to go for it. Hopefully fight kill trading and fishing near spawns and stuff won't be a huge factor. 

[Riddle me this....]

32 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Shouldn't anet be making "content" "harder"/"challenging" for organized groups? Not easier?

I heard we had a dev say a zerg farming 5 people was fun for both sides.... how? how could they possibly come up with that reasoning.

Don't pve players get bored of beating same easy raids over and over again? Doesn't the same idea apply for organized fight groups in wvw?

Why do most of these guilds or groups fall apart in mere months? barely getting into years of service?

They got numbers.

They got voice.

They're organized.

They run meta classes.

The game has been nerfed down to cater to them.

Don't those organized groups get bored when their content gets too easy for them? when people run away from them?

Shouldn't we try to find ways to get more players to face those groups? instead of chasing them out of wvw?

They always proclaim they're in it for "competition", but anet seem to continue making content easier for them, making it less challenging.....

Leading down the path of chase away the small groups, the roamers, making it easier to get boring for the big groups... eventually turning wvw into an actual ghost town.

Pretty laughable to see a squad of 50 trying to farm 5-10 people. You may think you're producing content, but you're also killing it...

I just don't get it..... 🤷‍♂️

Good points in bold. The carrot on a stick is a little different from PvE to WvW. When I'd raid in other games it was something like World First - then fastest run - then routine clears for more baseline groups - then speed up those routine clears to gear everyone up. 

I agree, gaining total dominance of an encounter should require the tightest ship and the degree of difficulty to recover should require conditioning more than just filling squad slots. A lot of squads do run a tight ship and work to improve team movement and all that, but what gets thrown at them in no way compares to say a Raid boss who can wreck everyone (unless they get a mirror of themselves thrown at them or savvy pugs can get like 30 min to an hour to dismantle) for weeks to months and still remain challenging over time during mishaps or laziness. 

I get it that squads should be encouraged to squad up like in raids and stuff, but the longer adds snowball and response has more time to filter in, it should press them more instead of letting them farm. The blob itself is fun to fight but not against the clock and not when defenses keep getting jankier. 

[WTF is Anet doing to WvW?]

30 minutes ago, ascii.1369 said:

In regards to the people who are just there for the gift, fair enough. You are probably correct that there is no way to get them out on the map with how the game mode currently works. What I would probably say is that a significant rework of how the game mode works is not really in the crads though. Changing the reward system on the other hand, very realistic. And I don't think the "gift people" are the target audience for WvW anyway. The people a better reward system would target are the ones that actually want to be in WvW but for one reason or another don't engage with the PvP aspect of the game mode.

Sure, that could get people out there more. That value threshold for the rewards would be tricky though and we'd have to hope we're actually rewarding people who like to pvp and not filling up people who are more into gimmicks to secure those rewards routinely. 

[WTF is Anet doing to WvW?]

5 minutes ago, ascii.1369 said:

Just to be clear, that's perfectly fine, not everybody has to be a sweaty tryhard. However, the reason it feels that way is because only the sweaty tryhards are out on the map roaming for victims. If we had better rewards to encourage more casual players to wander out on to the map, all of a sudden you would meet mostly people just as casual as yourself and the experience would be much more enjoyable.

I understand what you were saying. I'm saying I think rewards aren't going to move that needle as much as setting. That's unless they're forced to stomp so many enemy players before they can get their Gifts or whatever. I could be wrong, but we've been given more avenues towards gearing up and filling bags over time already. 

[WTF is Anet doing to WvW?]

25 minutes ago, ascii.1369 said:

The numbers are probably too high, but other than that YES.

Please for the love of god Anet, you finally need to introduce rewards that encourage active gameplay. Especially giving rewards for stomps (not kills) would be amazing. This would finally encourage people to actually play the game rather than afk in spawn until a tag shows up. As someone who roams almost exclusively and never on EBG I have to say, it feels like 95% of WvW players don't actually like PvP. It's pretty much impossible to get randome pugs to help capture a camp that has 2-5 defenders.

Now that I'm thinking about it, while the above suggested changes to rewards would be a massive step in the right direction, I think the most pressing issue to solve would be that people refuse to play if there is no tag around. While there is no tag on borderlands it seems those three maps are just EBG waiting rooms. While encouraging active gameplay through rewards is the direction WvW should move in more generally, it really would be great if we could have significant rewards that encourage players to venture out there without the protection of a 35 people zerg. Admittedly, I can't think of any other good ideas of how to encourage small scale gameplay right now, other than the already mentioned rewards for stomps. But than again, there are people at Anet whose full time job it is to design the game, I'm sure you can come up with something.

People avoiding pvp is part of it, but while someone who hasn't played WvW might imagine old pre launch promos of actual siege warfare at a cinematic pace, the reality is that you need to be greasy fast and actually have the fire power, mitigation, with the specs and connection to not just be bag fodder. My Steam Deck can hang most of the time, but I do run into stretches where I should probably just log off (doesn't help that I'm doing other stuff while I'm playing, but even when I tune in to cover people, I'm not that good of a player to compensate every time). 

I imagine a lot of casual players or people mostly hanging out with their guilds can feel like WvW is a mad dash across a map so you don't get melted right away or get corpse jumped and then feel like it's all personal all of the sudden. I think WvW would need to have more theater and feel more like open world pvp instead of a large spvp match to get more people to wander around more often. 

[When is the next no-downstate week?]

38 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

🙂 Slog.

I think that's part of the WvW update that sunk into my mind as well. "we also want to encourage player interaction so that large portions of attacks against structures don't feel like a slog". I noticed myself typing slog a couple of times and had to remove. The irony I find is they used slog but with the papering of more keeps more players have to spend more time running back to a fight already, so players are already having to get used to do more running.

The reason I would be interested in seeing defeated players not being able to rezzed is that it would have equal impact for both the side with more and the side with less. Defeated is out and has to come back. Right now even in a no downstate week defeated still can be brought back as long as you win, which today usually means, having more. Where as the side with less that is defeated have to run back regardless. But again I am looking at this from a defender view point and your points about a larger side also having an edge if they focus fire is quite valid as well so please don't read it from that angel since that was not the intention. I see no downstate as a partial balancing factor when less try and take on more. Personally I vote to keep downstate since I think the better middle group is an adjustment to it so that it feels less one sided in regards to numbers on all sides of a fight.

 

Being able to be rezzed after a full death hurts our own side also, you know who you are lying there watching us get wrecked instead of running back, which is another reason to axe it along with Rally, under certain conditions though (right now, lag and a lack of other stuff to do could make that largely problematic and discouraging). Aside from that, I'd also take out all of the Downed skills apart from Auto maybe and give everyone a very Slow Crawl and a link-up G skill maybe that lets them grab a nearby friendly to be dragged, but that friendly also has to choose to target and drag that Downed player. 

There was a fun Doctor or Combat Medic skill in Starwars Galaxies that allowed you to drag a fallen teammate, and that was fun but also a gamble, but also pretty simple focusing entirely on the teamwork dynamic. 

[When is the next no-downstate week?]

5 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

I get that point and understand. Mind you I will try and attack 1 v 6 to practice that and see what I can do on the build. Xen sometimes sends me 50, that I admit is too many but I try anyway. I see downstate week as the same. I just would like to see a week where they also can't be rezzed so that they also have to run back from spawn versus just slowing a larger group.

Side note: Would still be interested in seeing a week where walls are left damaged after an objective is taken. Granted this is off topic but could be an interesting week. More damage you do breaking in, more you have to deal with after taking it. But gain off topic and not related to your reply Kash.

If it's just Downed but can't be rezzed after full death that would be fun. It would be great if WvW mechanics had some additives that encouraged a pace that would naturally form lines, formations, and team movement. But the lack of activity outside blobs and roaming might still make that a slog for people who are dying.

[WTF is Anet doing to WvW?]

4 hours ago, Arrow Blade of El Elyon.9341 said:

Just some thoughts.

Some issues;

(A) It seems clear that "boonballs" (zergs pumping out a mass of boons) is a problem, it is boring to play against and an uphill struggle to fight against if outnumbered.
(B) Repairing of walls requiring 50% would not be so much of a problem if there was not a systemic population problem, but WvW currently is not the "ideal situation", and for those outnumbered, it makes it even more harder to defend or stall enemies until support arrives.
(C) Siege disabler needs to be restored back to what it was as this helps with stalling enemies until support arrives.
(D) Celestial builds, we need an official statement from ANET if they consider the stats problematic for WvW (instead of the forum having endless debates if it is, or is not).
(E) A response to balance issues, people like playing in large groups, but also roaming, so both sides need to be addressed (Willbender is one example where there are large threads calling for it to be balanced, a response on large threads in general would be appreciated).
(F) Perma stealth builds needs to be addressed.

Some suggestions for stealth;

WvW has some tools to combat stealth, Target painters and Target painter traps, make these not only insta-cast, but provide us with special actions keys to use them without having to go into our inventory, as it is a very clunky way to use them, especially when stealth builds can blink in and out of stealth. Increase the revealed time. Increase the amount of target painter traps being able to be placed down to 2 at a time and decrease cooldown of target painter. 

No doubt there are other issues, but those are some of the main issues as I see them.

I think Anet has to be careful about how they approach the boon ball issue, regardless of what we all claim about it. A lot of the issue is the player base and how it's going to simmer down into a gimmick regardless. The boon ball is as dangerous as the WvW points and structure taking systems allow. They're a lot of fun to fight any other time. They're boring and frustrating to fight when they can flex inside a keep or tower circle and time is running out. Mostly agree though and agree with the other points.

Even if target painters are insta cast and easier to use, you'd still have to use them instead of using that time to go through your normal sequence, while the other player can go through theirs. I'd rather have stealth opacity decreased (and allow target select) after a second or two within some radius of proximity to enemies regardless of the stealth duration stack but the stealth user still holds onto stealth modifiers for the duration. That would still allow stealth approach or map travel masking but lessen the chance of stealthing away from combat and allow interrupts, pulls, and all that but still allow the chance at Stealth Attacks throughout. I could be forgetting details where that wouldn't work out the way I'm thinking. 

 

[Rethinking World vs World Dynamics for Enhanced Gameplay]

15 hours ago, Stash.8401 said:

1. This is mostly a scenario to create more PvP within the community, as groups that are running around looking for fights will see nobody until they are trying to attack an objective. If I came with a zerg to take your keep and it had wide open gates, I would have to keep in mind that your team may have a group of 5-10 that may try backdoor my keep while the rest of your team is defending against me, which may lead to me calling a smaller group from my side to go to defend the keep, giving your team an easier chance at defending your keep. The waypoints are convenient and nobody likes losing them simply because of convenience. The guilds that strictly focus on PvP obviously will not care about losing objectives, but those same guilds do care when they are running around trying to find enemies to fight and there are none coming out to play because they are hiding behind walls on their siege and don't come out until you're vastly drowned in siege, even some groups will do so when they outnumber your group. No downstate does not benefit large zergs at all. It benefits everyone equally, but especially smaller groups can take advantage of this. When you're running with 20 people against 50 people and you down 5-10 of them, the larger group can easily hand res or use resurrection skills to get their allies up while still being able to keep submittable pressure on the group of 20. The larger group will always have the advantage in this scenario, of course as long as they are coordinated enough. The overall idea is to create a more competitive and skill based game mode.

2. I'm talking strictly about AFK players. The people who AFK run in 1 spot at spawn so that they don't have to requeue. If you are actively playing the game, moving around and using skills, killing players, taking objectives solo or not then obviously you should not be kicked from the map. If you are running in 1 spot in a corner for hours and you're not sitting at your computer, you should be removed from the map to let others in and not congest the queue.

I won't say those are bad ideas. They're actually good ideas, if we had a different player base. Most weeks no one cares about losing stuff or losing waypoints. Lose a waypoint, hang out on a different map or camp out at SMC gate lane.

On 4/29/2024 at 9:02 PM, Stash.8401 said:

Moreover, the issue of players auto-running AFK, particularly prevalent in Eternal Battlegrounds (EBG), is a concern. To deter this behavior, a system should be implemented requiring players to perform a certain number of actions within a designated area to remain active. This measure would prevent prolonged AFK presence, alleviating queue congestion and ensuring a fairer experience for active participants.

That sounds great if the formula for deciding that takes into account of a range of players. I might hang out in an area for a while scoping out body language or calling stuff out. I'm performing actions, but I hope I'd be performing exactly enough to not get bumped from the map 

[When is the next no-downstate week?]

Page locked up. Double post. 

[When is the next no-downstate week?]

8 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Not sure I agree here. I won't speak for others but no downstate weeks encourages smaller groups and roamers to dive in more and see how many they can out. But it may be I am mental and seeing what players can impact during those weeks. 

Maybe server to server experience varies, but I see zergs being able to more easily clean up since they don't have to slow down to deal with downed and even those on the peripheral who normally snowball a dismantling of a squad comps are second guessing those attempts. 

It's also a bit baffling that the forum that regularly frames thieves and thief adjacent anything as game breaking be so eager to make things easier for them. 

[When is the next no-downstate week?]

10 minutes ago, GBEW.5947 said:

ive read a lot of dumb posts on this forum but this might be the dumbest.

I'm not sure, but I have a feeling that they weren't entirely serious making that suggestion. 

I envy your forum experience though if that's true. 

[When is the next no-downstate week?]

2 hours ago, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

Yea, that's a better and less repugnant comment than "oh, you think you're going to beat blob even though you can't kill anyone?" Jeez.

Apologies if that came off as a harsh comment, but you assumed everyone was cool with that and assumed it effected zerg play in a certain way and I was kind of matching your comments tone. I don't mind a no downstate week once in a while, but monthly is a lot. 

I'm with you when we're ready to change Downstate skills some and scrapping or replacing Rally though.

[When is the next no-downstate week?]

14 minutes ago, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

What's going on? If I still can't close out a kill then...what? My world doesn't revolve around blobs. No-downstate is fun, dude. But I'm sure you know about that since you sound fun yourself 🙄

Down state is fun aside from Rally. The no Down state weeks end up being lame, a lot of people end up avoiding the maps, and it helps zergs more than anyone else. 

[Rethinking World vs World Dynamics for Enhanced Gameplay]

5 minutes ago, Stash.8401 said:

Having open gates will make it easier for zergs to take stuff, but if they want to zerg then they also jeopardize having their assets taken. Whereas if they split into smaller groups/scouts they could secure their real estate and be ready for an attack/be able to defend.

 

WvW doesn't have other instances of the map. The point was to prevent people who are not playing the game but stay logged in afk auto pathing clogging up the queues.

1. And what will the fix be when you find out that most guilds or squads don't care much about losing that stuff? You really think those squads are going to split up into smaller groups and spread out, or make even a group or two of their usual crowd hang back in their home territory incase the other servers show up? 

2. Again, explain what you're talking about because it doesn't make sense yet. What I'm hearing is, unless I join a large zerg, I'm in front of the line to get bumped off the map. 

I'm really not trying to trash someone's idea, but you came out hard against a lot of players daily experience and I'm mostly seeing benefits to large zergs. 

[When is the next no-downstate week?]

And when you still can't close out a kill what will you request? It's the same blob play as any other time, but if you're not in the core of that squad or one of their besties, then you're going to take the waypoint more. 

[Rethinking World vs World Dynamics for Enhanced Gameplay]

So a possible but not likely takedown of an enemy by a smaller group is going to change zerg play? And that's going to happen while also making it easier than ever for zergs to take a structure? Can you unpack that a little more? 

Downstate isn't your problem. Players are your problem, and they will continue to be your problem without Downstate. No reason to axe a fun mechanic that adds an interesting dynamic to combat when it can just be changed a little. No reason to dumb down game play because some players can't hang with it. 

You need to explain your second point because I don't see any good angle for that. The way I'm interpreting it, if I'm not in a squad or large group (even though I'm still working with everyone and hanging out with the other usuals), I'd get shuffled to another instance of a map. See how popular that is if it ever happens and watch combat with who are left on the map be lamer than it's ever been. 

[There are some serious balance changes I would like to see]

8 minutes ago, Rainiris.1975 said:

>Why do you want these changes and what are you expecting them to do?

To address what feels unreasonable. Not so much what feels unfair because WvW is a PK simulator, and that's something that wont change no matter what.

The most edge cases I've confronted come from thieves, mesmers, and zergs.  Like I understand thieves are squishy beyond cool and the whole point of mesmer is missdirection, but being able to disengage and reset at practically no cost, even several times in a row, feels like going too far. Mostly because it's further compounded by being able to break target through stealth. So the idea for Thief is to force a commitment to either flee or take the lead - not both, and certainly not reset for eternity.

For harbinger's shroud 5, I just feel that CC is too much for Necro to deserve it. It feels like a free pass when I'm using it, and it feels like a free pass when I'm caught by it. Cele Harbinger already has more than enough power and sustain to bomb.

Mesmer falls in a similar category to thief, but it's more due to the ammount of invulnerability and reflection it has access too. On top of breaking target through stealth, portal has always been an annoying skill in my book due to absolute lack of counterplay (it wont even show on my screen until it's open so I can't react until I've been bombed, and even then I have to react to the sound, not the visual... what?). Trying to push for a nerf on this end is meaningless because of the more important pressing matter, and that's the change to blocking and projectile. With all the survival mesmer has, and considering shield on mesmer is a paid ugprade, I just don't see as reasonable also gifting free invulnerability to one of the best blocks in the game. It is a chronomancer weapon and I'm on the mind only the chronomancer has a right to make proper use of it instead of a Mirage.

 

It's the gratuituous ammounts of reflection and block on zerg play that's the main issue to my eyes. It negates counterplay unless you can meet on an equal or large group, and that's taking for granted there is enough people active at the time. What this means is that you're guaranteed to lose. That's different from being *very likely* to lose. WvW matchmaking has not been stellar, and a large enough zerg at the correct hour of the day can just camp an opponent's keep. No organization is going to help that when the core issue of WvW has always been numbers.  Ultimately the idea is to tone down a zerg's ability to just bunker down so they can, at least, be forced coerced to retreat instead of just camping in place only attacking lord when "the fun's over".

The ideal move would be to avoid your own keep and go elsewhere, but the scenario where one team can just hunk down at the enemy's keep also precludes the scenario where there's so many of them you can't even take a camp without 2-5 appearing at lightspeed. This is the absolute worst part of the WvW experience, and ultimately the reason behind the buffs from outnumbered - to still allow the (underpoblated) parties to remain a treat - treating damage as siege so gates and walls can be hurt without spending an entire tick building a siege that will be destroyed on sight before you can use it, and granting defiance to prevent a CC stunlock - scaling it with HP already makes it a pretty thick bar, which is why I also propose to only make it regenerate through Stability instead of fully recovering out of combat - not dissimilar to how golems do not recover health.

I believe that by removing the effectiveness of area blocks and reflects, zergs will be forced to interact more directly with everything. Large enough organized groups will still be able to keep a near perfect uptime, but between them being able to "break down" and there potentially being a second or two where they are not active, it shoudl at least feel like there's a fighting chance.

Between this and the changes targetted for thief, there isn't much need to do anything about mesmer at this point that wouldn't be unnecessarily unfair. In small scale fights, the reflection and block changes shouldn't have an effect (the blocking and reflection duration should be ending before it "breaks"), and in large groups it forces their precious boons to be active.

Warclaw being able to move through entire groups unimpeded feels like an excess, so I'm mostly forcing a decisions by enabling bond of life by default. Bond of life causes the pet to gain the player's HP pool, so if a mounted player dies, the player dies. As things stand right now Warclaw with over 10k hp would just be able to ignore everything, so by making shackles work (Immobilize condition) on short periods, it can at least be expected to be somewhat stoppable, forcing a decision between continuing being mounted, or engaging.

Willbender has an absurd ammount of mobility but what really gives it an excuse to be so mobile is Renewed Focus. So the idea was to bring it in line with other similar skills that offer virtual invulnerability. By making it so it can be hit, at least it is possible to counter it through condition application. Because that would require stability to be a perfect swap, instead movement impaired is turned to self-poison. Guardian is a very versatile class with free access to condition cleansing, which means the poison itself wont do much, but it'll force a cleanse if the player also wants to heal from low, thus granting a much needed window of counterplay.

 

As I said, ultimately the goal is a paradigm shift. A change large enough to cause everyone to look at the game differently.

The disengage is not at no cost. Learn to resource budget and stagger between different resource pools. 

Disengaging to get entirely out of combat routinely is definitely something that needs to be changed, but that only effects a few builds.

You talk about the ability to stealth and break target. I agree, losing a target entirely shouldn't be a feature. I've given a few different suggestions before but the one that I've seen in other games is proximity opacity to keep Stealth modifiers and some obfuscation while not being totally untraceable, so that the stealth focus shifts to map travel obfuscation and setting up a dynamic approach for a killer opener. People ignore those kinds of suggestions to screech more though so whatever.

But then you would have to do something more like proximity opacity unless you want to redesign skills like Stealth Attacks and instead call them Positional Attacks, so that they can be used even when opacity lets up and they become more visible. Or, if Anet kitten the bed and did something ignorant like put a 20 second reveal. 

[There are some serious balance changes I would like to see]

If you need handicaps just ask for them without the convoluted nerf request. 

[Dear Thieves, May We Trade Throw Bolas for Scorpion Wire?😂]

Scorpion Wire isn't the fastest and it can be janky but that Pull can also be an interrupt close up or at range. It's also a nice distance closer if they put up a Reflect. I have a few Immobilize options already. 

I also can't pull people underwater with Bolas. 

[Removal of Stealth when?]

12 minutes ago, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

hahahaha

that is funny.

What they really do is:

jump you out of stealth. 

if there is any risk, they stealth up and port away, leave the fight, recupperate

then jump you out of stealth again

 

the whole mechanic is fundamentally broken and the playstyle is... how can I say it without getting banned? No.. I can't.

You must be baller out there if every thief is running from you. My guess is most of don't even bother stealthing against you. Why would they need to if that's your take on stealth?  

I'm not a fan of heavy stealth play either but it's not all that. How do you have fun playing at all if you live in a constant state of fear like that? 

 

[Removal of Stealth when?]

23 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I don't think "mitigation" is the main point of stealth for thief, in term of mitigation thief got plenty of evade and there is room to add damage reduction coefficients (for example, thief used to get 30% incoming damage reduction when revealed via a trait) as well as weapon skillset that offer skills similar to dardevil's bandit's defense.

Before anything else, Stealth for thief is a ressource that they can chose to consume for various effects or keep in order to reposition themselves to get back the initiative in a fight.

Kind of agree, but if stealth weren't a form of mitigation, people wouldn't try to drop combat and bounce with it. 

[Removal of Stealth when?]

43 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You forgot underwater elementalist, Ele have a smoke field on earth skills underwater 😉

That said, stealth isn't going to be removed from the game. The developpers would have to fully "rework" thief which rely on stealth on many level and such a rework is unlikely to happen.

I wouldn't even be mad if they did try something different as long as it was inspired, but it would still have to be some type of visual obfuscation anyway unless they were to change some things about thief mitigation also which just wouldn't make sense thematically. They could go wild and expand Shadowsteps to take over that aspect also with positioning and masking direction. People would still complain but I'd have a blast if the animations were fun.