Grogba.6204
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Posts posted by Grogba.6204
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@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:So I'm acknowledging my unfamiliarity with raid content in GW2 here, but if I understand your post correctly, there is no 'story' to the raid content?
To be more precise: Dungeons entered the game at release back in 2012 and were most likely in development until then and even afterwards, too, considering all the bugs that have and to this day still plague the content. All dungeons were developed with one introduction path (to tie in the reforming of Destiny's Edge) aka "story" path and a number of explorable paths. Now the explorable paths happen after the story path chronologically. The only thing the explorable paths and the story path share are the scenery and story aspect.
Now, Raids were introduced in November 2015 with one difficulty tier in mind. (Arenanet has been rather clear that they consider Raids the ultimate challenge!). As such, there is but one version of every Raidwing, the one currently implemented into the game.Therefore - as multiple people already stated in this thread - it is not simply pulling a lever to create an easy/story/hard mode of raids (and the current difficulty is essentially the story mode as the boss encounters are a tie in to the story). Bosses would have to be redesigned, encounters changed, a way to initiate the mode has to be created, all of this has to be tested, bugs need to be fixed. And as anything in development, this may take multiple iterations, too.
And considering that ressources are finite, something would need to be pushed back. Either PvP, WvW, Open World, the Story, Current Events or a new Raidwing (The release schedule for them is already insanely slow!). To provide my own opinion: I do not think that an easy mode is necessary. If it has no replayability it turns into dead content, if it's rewards are too good it starts cannibalizing other kinds of content.
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@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:I'm a relatively new player, and don't have much interest in raiding (been there, done that in other titles).
BUT, I would like to point out that Dungeons have a "story" mode that is noticeably easier along with "exploration" mode that offers more challenge and additional loot rewards. Not sure if that was already suggested in the 50+ pages, but as the model already exists in game, why couldn't Raids have a "story" mode enabled?
Because dungeons were designed with these story paths in mind, these paths are completely different from the explorable paths and thus do not apply for raids.
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@maddoctor.2738 said:
@"Feanor.2358" said:The fact of matter is, the easy mode can teach you only the basics.This depends on how it's created. If it alters the entire fight with increased damage, hit points and speed then yes it will only teach you the absolute basics. However, if most of the fight stays the same and only a few parts change then it teaches you everything else except for those parts.Matthias has an achievement to not use food and Bandit Trio has an achievement to not use the environment abilities, not only you can practice both at any time you wish, and if you see it's too hard, use the mechanics to succeed, but the rest of the fight is identical. In both cases the normal mode of these bosses teaches you the challenge version very well. Sabetha has the last cannon achievement, which requires you to keep one cannon active for the duration of the fight while everything else is the same. Once again, aside from the south part of the platform being under constant bombardment, the fight doesn't really change much from the regular version.Funny that you didn't mention KC "CM" in your list because all these encounters have one thing in common:They are completely the same, nothing changes. The environmental effects at Trio or having no food (nourishments are still allowed!) at Matthias does not make the fights any different at all. Why you would want to leave south alive at Sabetha is something I don't understand, too (east is the far more practical choice). Leaving one cannon out also increases the group dps by a huge margin which ultimately leads to a faster clear.
edit: What I mean with no difference is that neither Berg, Zane, Narella nor Matthias end up using new skills or behave differently. Squad DPS will be lower thus the time to kill them increases.
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@"Feanor.2358" said:That's an interesting question. I don't think a full-fledged raid wing is necessary for this, but I can totally see the value of training instances focused on these. Imagine a training area composed of a "boss" golem and "allied" golems which take a lot of damage from the boss one. Your goal is to tank it, diverting damage from your "teammates" until they kill it. Or alternatively, heal them to the same effect. Perhaps just different "programs" in the SFTA. It could definitely help new players get faster the basics of tanking and healing.
FFXIV does that. In fact you can't queue for the dungeonfinder unless you progressed through the role training. All three trinity roles are explained:Tank: Move out of casts/build aggro/deal with adds/pull mobs off of other playersHealer: Move out of casts/heal a single ally/heal your group/deal with aggroDamage Dealer: Move out of casts/focus a target/target priority/encounter mechanics
naturally, certain aspect cannot apply for GW2
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@Tyson.5160 said:Yes Grogba, good, agree that soloing a raid boss is the exact same thing as solo roaming in WvW.
SMC or any of the Keeps can be done solo then?
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Raids in GW2 are as casual as it gets.
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@Tyson.5160 said:Maybe if that player had 22 million health, split into separate characters at 66% and 33% and could instant kill you if you didn’t step in his green circles...
Good thing greens do not instantly kill you and the boss has been done with a minimum of two players (before distortion nerf) and three man (before and after distortion nerf) by simply outhealing the mechanic...
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Why are you raiding with people you don't like? I have control about with whom I want to raid. If you are unable to socialize within the game it is not the fault of raids.
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No, just the three bosses drop one each.
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@Feanor.2358 said:... until that time when they screw up a mechanic in addition to being a terrible dps. :)
Naturally, Sloth, Matthias, Deimos, Xera and Dhuum can still be a gamble (until the pug dies in poison, gets sacrificed or fell off the plattform, then he can't break anything anymore :tongue: )
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@"zealex.9410" said:And like lol why wouldnt u want to join a 250 group? In ALOT of cases these groups are absolutelly terrible and you are better off just not joining.
Guilty as charged. If I have to fill up we tend to ask for 200-250 LI, too (And we know damn well that some of the players we got that way obviously faked the LI count in the first place).
The problem is just: There is no way to know what you get. We have no way to screen players! I might as well just ask "[boss] lf [role]" and either get a great player or someone getting carried. Chances are, though, that in case of the former (demanding LI) the players joining are a lot more invested and that the very same players avoid LFGs without requirements like the plague (If they don't demand LI they must clearly suck!) Same goes for the boss specific kill proof. Ultimately, though, it hardly matters (for us) what we get via LFG as we make sure to have the important roles covered:
- Tank (if necessary)
- Chronos
- Healer/Druids
- Mechanics (Cannons, Shrooms, etc.)
Meaning we only need DPS if we need someone. Sure, we could also clear the majority of encounters undermanned but even a teribble DPS is still a DPS :no_mouth:
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@"Astralporing.1957" said:They won't do that. They might say they don't have any plans to do that at the moment, but they won't commit to saying the plans will definitely won't change. Because plans do change sometimes. Raids are an example of that.The devs know that. The raiders arguing against these ideas know that as well (which is why they're so vehement in the defence of their own side instead of just ignoring the threads, which they'd likely do if they really thought this train of suggestions has zero chance of being heard).
I am commenting because you and Ohoni keep bringing up the idea of a player - allow me to call him Bob - who is absolutely unable to raid because the content itself is too difficult and thus warrants nerfing even though said player pulled all levers and did everything in his or her power to get into raids. And this player is just a fabrication, that is the problem here.
Websites like https://www.gw2raidar.com show factual prove that you don't have to play like a god or the top guilds to clear raids. The only thing you gain through the way these people play are shorter boss fights. That's it. if the energy you put into a pointless thread like this was put into the actual content you would have cleared everything multiple times by now.
And besides all that, Ohoni, even if we had an easy mode it would still take 2-3 hours, perhaps longer, to clear all the raid bosses in a week so yes, if you cannot bring up the time to do that then Raids aren't suitable for you or Bob. The individual bosses may take between three to ten minutes - depending on the fight - at this point, too. The most time consuming thing is waiting for players, be it to fill up the squad or for everyone to press ready and the only thing that would prevent that would be nerfing the fights so hard that you finish them pressing one with random gear drooling over your keyboard.
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If two or three hours dedicated to a single activity within an MMO once or twice a week are too much to ask then it's time to look for another game or to get gud. That's too long? Do as the top guilds and clear all wings in under two hours.
Edit: plox nerf LW updates, take to long to play. Let me log in and just get all the rewards instantly.
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Nearing my 750th kill and started raiding rather late (shortly before the release of W3) joined a static and from failing Gorseval repeatedly we reached a level where we can easily clear the majority of encounters in one evening. Since we can only raid for 2-3 hours per evening due to work, jobs, study and rl our progress is ultimately slower. For similar reasons we are not always full, relying on PUGs, usually for DPS. But yes, keep spreading lies on how we are all selling raids and ostracize players.
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@Silver.2076 said:I like to remember the fracal meta back where you could do everything with 4 condi-reaper and 1 dudu. Easy, relatively fast, comfortable, stress-free, very easy to find matching players. That's why I played the fractal, because it was pleasant! That's exactly what I've wanted for the pve-raids for a long time. But no, it's all back to those kitten speedruns and top-dps kitten! It's stressing me out. Excuse me.If you ask me what we need to get more people into the raids: Exactly what there was with the former fractal meta! Play with no stress! This toxic elitism pisses me off!
You can clear raid bosses with almost any group composition outside of a few odd cases that outright kill off the squad once timer hits zero. Multiple groups have proven that dozens of times. The difference is just that you cannot slack off and put in lowest effort people one did and can still do in fractals. It doesn't matter if you play META comp, 10 Scourges or anything else: If you do not put in the effort to play your class and the encounter halfway decently you will not succeed nor do you deserve to succeed.
Again, this doesn't boil down to raids being too hard to play but to players not wanting to adapt or improve their own gameplay. shrug
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@belognom.3685 said:You are missing my point. If I needed raid clearance I would buy it like ummmh, when i need my place cleaned I hire a cleaner, that agrees to do that job for me for that time and that money.I don't need raid clearance. I want to clear a raid.
No, you are missing everyones point. You want to clear a raid? Look for a raiding guild/squad/group. Take initiative and just. do. the. content.The challenge is part of the experience, if you cannot grasp that than I am not sure if raids are suited for you in the first place.
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But an easier option exists. It is impossible to design a boss easier than Mursaat Overseer or Cairn without the encounter turning into a copy of the testgolem. Creating easy modes for the other bosses would also completely break their design patterns. What would you even want to change about them?
The Timer? The vast majority of failed attempts are hardly because the squad hit the enrage. Even full Nomads gear wouldn't help you against a lot of bosses simply because said mechanics will kill you if you don't do them.
HP Values? Every single boss in raids is designed with HP thresholds in mind. Take a look at videos of the best raiding guilds and you can see how hilariously broken class DPS is. Certain bosses like Xera turn into a tank and spank boss because the DPS prevents her skript from using one of her deadlier attacks. Reducing Boss HP wouldn't change a thing either, only the DPS necessary to skip certain phases would be lowered but again, the encounter will kill you if you ignore the mechanics. Likewise nerfing player DPS would neither improve raids for most players nor would it decrease perceived toxicity. Pug squads would end up even more toxic as a result since players would actually need to play more efficiently than now.
Encounter Mechanics? These are for the most part "on"/"off", so to speak. Either you do them correctly and get rewarded (not taking dmg, beating a boss) or you fail them and pay, sometimes with a wipe (allowing one of the spirits at Gorseval to be consumed, reaching 100 stacks at Xera/Cairn, standing in a wrong tile at MO, etc.)Removing them is also not an option. Removing just one mechanic or changing one part of the equation that makes up a boss completely changes the encounter.
And let me say this again, it is hard to come up with an encounter design easier than Mursaat Overseer or Cairn. It is certainly possible to design encounters on a similar difficulty level in the same way it is possible to create something harder than Dhuum CM. The biggest problem of this thread, however, is a false perception of raids in the first place. We can argue that some mechanics are extremely unforgiving (Dhuum greens), others plain stupid (Deimos hands) or not working correctly (Samarog's spear pull in normal mode) but saying "We need easy mode plox!!1" without going into detail what you think is too hard is neither constructive nor will it ever lead anywhere.Ultimately because your perception or preconceived opinion about the content will clash with the experience and data of those who regularly play it.
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I've spend multiple evenings just to finally kill my first VG back when raids were still new. Died dozens of times, in the end the enrage timer fucked us up, not the mechanics but ultimately we succeeded and that moment when the boss collapses is still one of the most amazing experiences I had in this game. Raid players are not some inhuman beings that play "better" (in terms of dealing with boss mechanics). Outside of a few gifted individuals - as with all things - everyone of them reached this point through sheer determination and dedication.
And even among the raiding community you'll find players that are content with being able to clear bosses and players that can finish Deimos or Dhuum CM with less than 10 players without breaking a sweat.
The solution is not adding an easymode but rather adding encounters of various difficulty in the future (like W4) and providing a reason to utilize the game's mechanics more because the main problem is still that the level of play (so to speak) necessary to clear raids may end up helping you in other parts of the PvE experience but is not required at any point which leads to players running fullspeed into a wall as soon as they step into this part of the content.
Discord, Training Squads, class mentors, statics and sharing information is great and dandy but all of this would not be as necessary if A-Net designed rewarding content between fractals and raids.
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@belognom.3685 said:I don't get why every other topic gets to legendary armor. What makes you believe people wanna learn raids for legendary armor?
Because outside of the challenge the encounter pose and playing challenging PvE Content with up to 10 players the legendary armor is the only other thing raids offer.
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@Astralporing.1957 said:By the way, you must have not been paying too much attention to the arguments if you think that it's the time invested that is the problem. Nobody asks for legendaries to be handed out, or available within days. No matter how strongly Raiders would like to claim otherwise.
No, I have not. The time gate for the Legendary armor is months of farming WvW or multiple seasons of PvP or slaying 150/300 raidbosses. The last armor also requires two collections which you can complete before you are anywhere close to getting the 150 LI for the gifts to upgrade the precursor. At the very minimum you would have to clear every single currently available raidboss for nine weeks to acquire the necessary LI for the first set.
If we assume a player only wants to clear the easier bosses he still has to do Deimos, Sabetha, Slothasor, Matthias, Keep Construct and Xera at least once for the required achievements. This still leaves him with Cairn, Mursaat Overseer, Samarog, Bandit Trio and the Glenna Escort for lowest effort and Vale Guardian, Gorseval, Desmina Escort and Three Kings for a bit more effort.
Summary? Six of the harder bosses required, bringing you down to 144 LI.So either 144/5 = 28,8 ~ 29 weeksOr 144/7 = 20,57 ~ 21 weeksfor one full set of armor, around half a year worth of doing raids at which point you will know the fights and have an idea how they should be handled.Not fast enough? You have the option to put in more effort and learn the other bosses to increase LI gain.
What even is the arguement here? That not every content is equally suited for everyone so we should totally bring it down to the lowest common denominator so it becomes awful for everyone?
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@Assic.2746 said:
From what I see no one here actually cares about how to improve the raid LFG which locks come players out of raids even though they spent a lot of time in game, they have the experience, they have the gear, they know their profession etc.
This is a core problem of GW2. Effort required vs possibilities offered. You can play the whole game pressing three buttons and reach lvl 80. Do I have to remind you about the few times A-Net increased the difficulty of open world/story encounters and the huge backlash they received because the prior described strategy did not work for once?
Now add content that actually requires knowledge of the game mechanics (dodging, dealing dmg, avoiding dmg, trait building, gearing, movement, boss mechanics, break bars, mob behaviour, etc) and the vast majority of players hits a brickwall and refuses to move past their way to play GW2. This is one of the reasons threads like this one exist but it is also the reason why many raidleaders refuse to accept total randoms because you have absolutely no way to prove beforehand if this one player can carry his or her weight. This is where KP's (faked or real) come in.
We cannot inspect other players for their gear, this would be too toxicWe have no official way to monitor performance outside of one grayish third party tool, would be too toxicWe have no way to demonstrate our experience with the content outside of minis and a handful of titles, too toxic?
You can try this yourself: Hit the lfg, search for any boss and say all welcome and see how it goes. You might succeed but you might also fail horribly and because many players don't have much time either they rather not wipe for hours if they are looking for a clear.
This does not mean, however, that squadleaders aren't a problem too: From my pugging experience I can say without doubt that pug-leaders have for the most part no leadership skills, little or no actual clue about the ups and downs of specific classes, are inexperienced themselves and just look for an easy carry by searching for absurd LI requirements.
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@STIHL.2489 said:
@"Blocki.4931" said:Why would the game accomodate YOU when it's mostly your job, you are playing the game you shouldn't complain about having to do so.Lets get one thing very clear here, it's their Job to entertain me, that is why I pay them. It is not, nor shall it ever be, my job in this relationship. I do this for fun, and escapism, not work, not a job, not a duty, but frivolous mindless escapism. No.. I don't plan to "git gud" as I don't have the time or the give a kitten to turn this game into a work.Newsflash, I paid them too and I enjoy the current raids and would like more wings to be released in the future. What is this now, a dick measuring contest? Vote with your wallet?
Nobody forces you to play raids and if you only play for escapism sake then why would you even require legendary armor because let us be honest here, all youwant from raids is quick gratification and shinies, lot's of shinies, and the second you acquire said shinies you would just leave that part of the content behind you since it doesn't offer you anything beyond that. Why should you care about the enjoyment of others.
I can't obtain Warbringer without playing WvW nor can I obtain the Ascencion without playing PvP. Same goes for Ad Infinitum which requires one to play fractals and every single one of them is at the very least two months of work (less so nowadays for Ad Infinitum). Time to add an "redeem legendary backpack" vendor to all three modes?
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"I don't need the loot. I already have what i need and even more. Thanks to SW and Istan yes. If i need something else I will swipe the card, I can afford that."
Nothing stopping you to buy a clear from a selling guild then. Or I don't know, put some effort and try to learn the encounter like all the "TOXIC ELITIST" did before. :shrug
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"This folks is why "Challenging" content is a myth, at some point it will become routine, lose all it's challenge and be nothing but a mindless easy grind."
This statement is false. The content does not lose its challenge just because players learn how to properly deal with the content. One slip up and the fight ends in a wipe and just because certain groups like Snow Crows, Lucky Noobs or Quantify can breeze through the content means both that the content is easier than people in this thread want to accept and that these guilds are made up from exceptionally good players.
"This is why any request for Challenging PvE content is just a veil by elitist and meta junkies to put in a means to stop players they feel are inferior to them from getting their precious prestige and best loots."
Yeah, let us just remove everything requiring an iota of thought from the game, can't overload the poor casuals brain with demanding rotations that take effort to learn and are very rewarding if done correctly. Remove all elite specs, all class skills, all classes and just give everyone an automatic rifle with 9000 range to one-shot kill everything. Certainly the peak of gaming experience.
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I'd argue some of the new fractal bosses are above many raid encounters in terms of mechanics at this point. VG, Gorseval, Sabetha, Trio, Cairn, Mursaat, Samarog are not particularly mechanic heavy. Unlike the fractal bosses, only a handful of players even have to deal with mechanics while the rest pummels the boss until the HP bar is empty. shrug
I see no point in easy modes. As others wrote before they will either end up being deserted because they offer nothing in return nor prepare you for the real encounter...Or the easy mode ends up rewarding too much, making the real mode undesirable for rewarddriven players while still not preparing them for the normal encounter set up. Different tiers work for daily content and even there they are questionable: T4 fractals, given their rewards, appeal to a large number of players even if said players are not up for the challenge. And I am not talking about advanced skipping strats or /gg for cooldown reset but terrible player behaviour (not dodging, not caring about instabilities, not changing skills/traits according to encounters, doing abysmal dmg even when all they have to do is doing dmg). Different tiered Raids would not change anything rather It is a welcoming change that there is finally content that requires a bit more thought than pressing skills at random /rant
Ultimately though it iss wasted dev ressources that could be spend on the next LW release, new fractals, another raid wing with lower difficulty to begin with (see w4 but that one is already easy apart from deimos), optimization, BUILD TEMPLATES or SAB world 3 A-Net pls.
Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]
in Instanced Group Content
Posted
Both would be amazing, easier wings or singular boss encounter (Lotro had Lair Raids for a short period, only two were produced afaik) and harder wings for progression entertaining both crowds.
But currently we can be happy if we get a new wing with more than two bosses at all. :cry: