How I would adjust Harbinger

[Asum.4960]

Pistol:

Vicious Shot: Now has an escalating Attack Chain. 

Weeping Shots: Now fires in a cone in front of you. Range reduced to 600.

Vile Blast: Now fires in a ground targeted circle, increased radius to 360. 

 

Why: Pistol currently feels extremely bland, these are some ideas to make the weapon feel more engaging to use and making it more active/skill focused.

 

Shroud: 

Voracious Arc: No longer Dazes. Now Fears for 1 seconds on Impact. (now considered Target of Dread). CD increased by 2 seconds in PvP Only.

Vital Draw: Now Floats for 1 second on each pulse. Cooldown increased by 5 seconds.

 

Why: Increases core Trait synergy with Voracious Arc as well as balancing risk versus reward for Vital Draw.

 

Traits:

Adept:

Minor: Dark Disciple: Blight reduced to -1% Health per stack, increased maximum Blight Stacks to 30. Now only triggers it's healing when Health missing equal to or greater than 5% of LF/only activates under 95% Health. (to allow other forms of sustain to heal up minor damage before LF drain occurs).

Major: Wicked Corruption: Reworked (No Longer grants increased Strike Damage per stack of Blight). Vile Blast now additionally Corrupts Boons (3 in PvE, 1 in PvP).

Major: Vile Vials: Unchanged.

Major: Septic Corruption: Renamed to Septic Barrage. No Longer grants increased Condition Damage per stack of Blight.

 

Master:

Minor: Alchemic Vigor: Renamed to Alchemic Corruption. No longer grants increased Vitality. Instead grants 0.5% increased Damage per Stack of Blight.

Major: Implacable Foe: Reworked. Devouring Cut and Voracious Arc now clear Immobilize on use.

Major: Twisted Medicine: Elixir skills also grant their boons to nearby allies. Now grants Concentration and Healing Power based on Blight Stacks. 120 at 10; 180 at 20; 240 at 30.

Major: Dark Gunslinger: Pistol Skills gain reduced recharge. Gain Expertise and Precision based on Blight Stacks. 120 at 10; 180 at 20; 240 at 30.

 

Grandmaster: 

Minor: Corrupted Talent: Unchanged

Major: Cascading Corruption: Reworked and renamed to Foot in the Grave. Enter Harbinger Shroud is now a Stunbreak and grants Stability for 5 seconds.

Major: Deathly Haste: Unchanged

Major: Doom Approaches: Unchanged

 

Why: Balances risk vs reward of Harbinger, cut's fat of redundant and underwhelming modifiers/options of play as well as conflicting design, while providing more optional Utility.

 

Elixir's: 

 

Heal:

Elixir of Promise: Now applies 10 stacks of Blight. Now grants Swiftness in addition to Vigor.

Utility:

Elixir of Anguish: Now applies 10 stacks of Blight. Now grants Fury instead of Swiftness. 

Elixir of Bliss: Now applies 10 stacks of Blight. Now also grants Protection.

Elixir of Ignorance: Now applies 10 stacks of Blight. Now grants Stability and Aegis instead of Resistance.

Elixir of Risk: Reworked. Now grants 30 Stacks of Blight. Gain 5% increased Damage for 6 seconds. This effect is shared with Twisted Medicine.

Elite:

Elixir of Ambition: Reworked and renamed to Elixir of Reprieve. Consume Blight, gain 1 second of Invulnerability per 10 stacks consumed. 

 

Rework Skill Icons to be more distinct and interesting.

 

Why: Refines Boon Support role to make it more appealing as offensive Boon Support while not being able to compete with more defensive/safe options. Refines Utility to be more broadly appealing across all gamemodes, while reducing unhealthy and overly niche options in favour of more interesting combinations and gameplay options, as well as refining risk and reward.

 

TL;DR:

Reworking vastly underperforming Power DPS line into a Utility line aimed more at competitive modes.

Streamlining DPS through a general damage modifier, but nerfing it from 25% to 15%. 

Streamlining Blight to -1% HP per stack for more visual clarity while increasing total stacks and removing Vitality Minor (changing base HP while fully blighted from ~11k HP to ~13k HP to slightly reduce unfun oneshot behavior while keeping the spec extremely squishy under pressure). 

Adding more Blight interactions.

Reworking Elixirs to provide a viable Boon support option with a slant to being more offensive, due to not being able to compete with existing options, such as Quickbrand, on a Utility and defensive level. 

Aiming to make Pistol more engaging than, tab target shoot, shoot and shoot.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Ceit.7619]

3 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Pistol:

Vicious Shot: Now has an escalating Attack Chain. 

Weeping Shots: Now fires in a cone in front of you. Range reduced to 600.

Vile Blast: Now fires in a ground targeted circle, increased radius to 360. 

 

Why: Pistol currently feels extremely bland, these are some ideas to make the weapon feel more engaging to use and making it more active/skill focused.

 

 

Generally agree that a pistol chain would be more fun, but this is basically never the case with pistols. Thief and Engineer are the only other pistol main hand users, and they don't get a chain either. Personally, if I were to fix something in the pistol kit, it would simply be to increase the amount of life force given from skills 2 and 3, in order to make it more dynamic with shroud usage.

 

3 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Shroud: 

Voracious Arc: No longer Dazes. Now Fears for 1 seconds on Impact. (now considered Target of Dread). CD increased by 2 seconds in PvP Only.

Vital Draw: Now Floats for 1 second on each pulse. Cooldown increased by 5 seconds.

 

Why: Increases core Trait synergy with Voracious Arc as well as balancing risk versus reward for Vital Draw.

 

 

While it would be nice to have our skills synergize with core fear-traits, I kinda like the move away from fear. With the amount of torment focus we have in this class, fear is a dps loss due to the movement mechanics of it.

 

3 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Traits:

Adept:

Minor: Dark Disciple: Blight reduced to -1% Health per stack, increased maximum Blight Stacks to 30. Now only triggers it's healing when Health missing equal to or greater than 5% of LF.

Major: Wicked Corruption: Reworked. Vile Blast now additionally Corrupts Boons (3 in PvE, 1 in PvP).

Major: Vile Vials: Unchanged.

Major: Septic Corruption: Renamed to Septic Barrage. No Longer grants increased condition damage per stack of Blight.

 

Master:

Minor: Alchemic Vigor: Renamed to Alchemic Corruption. No longer grants increased Vitality. Instead grants 0.5% increased Damage per Stack of Blight.

Major: Implacable Foe: Reworked. Devouring Cut and Voracious Arc now clear Immobilize on use.

Major: Twisted Medicine: Elixir skills also grant their boons to nearby allies. Now grants Concentration and Healing Power based on Blight Stacks. 120 at 10; 180 at 20; 240 at 30.

Major: Dark Gunslinger: Pistol Skills gain reduced recharge. Gain Expertise and Precision based on Blight Stacks. 120 at 10; 180 at 20; 240 at 30.

 

Grandmaster: 

Minor: Corrupted Talent: Unchanged

Major: Cascading Corruption: Renamed to Foot in the Grave. Enter Harbinger Shroud is now a Stunbreak and grants Stability for 5 seconds.

Major: Deathly Haste: Unchanged

Major: Doom Approaches: Unchanged

 

Why: Balances risk vs reward of Harbinger, cut's fat of redundant and underwhelming modifiers/options of play as well as conflicting design, while providing more optional Utility.

 

 

A bit of weirdness in here. Blight is a massive damage boost as it is at 25% maximum, but your Dark Disciple adjustment cuts the hp loss in half, and adds an additional 5% damage. This would likely be completely broken in terms of balance. Then pair this with the Master Minor of an *additional* .5% per stack, raising the damage bonus from 30% to 45% total? From Minor traits. Bonkers.

 

Wicked Corruption and Septic Corruption also no longer balance each other, as you are advocating removing the additional condition damage per stack, but retaining the additional strike damage per stack and simply adding to it to make it even better. 'Septic Barrage' would only be left with the poison effect on Shroud 2, which is severely underwhelming.

 

For Dark Gunslinger, putting stat gains on Blight Stacks just seems like it would be frustrating to build around. The lack of a flat bonus makes it so people have to make annoying gear choices (I.E. Aim for sub-par crit or duration and hope you can maintain Blight Stacks, or ignore it and it becomes a wasted bonus).

 

3 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Elixir's: 

 

Heal:

Elixir of Promise: Now applies 10 stacks of Blight. Now grants Swiftness in addition to Vigor.

Utility:

Elixir of Anguish: Now applies 10 stacks of Blight. Now grants Fury instead of Swiftness. 

Elixir of Bliss: Now applies 10 stacks of Blight. Now also grants Protection.

Elixir of Ignorance: Now applies 10 stacks of Blight. Now grants Stability and Aegis instead of Resistance.

Elixir of Risk: Reworked. Now grants 30 Stacks of Blight. Gain 5% increased Damage for 6 seconds. This effect is shared with Twisted Medicine.

Elite:

Elixir of Ambition: Reworked and renamed to Elixir of Reprieve. Consume Blight, gain 1 second of Invulnerability per 10 stacks consumed. 

 

Why: Refines Boon Support role to make it more appealing as offensive Boon Support while not being able to compete with more defensive/safe options. Refines Utility to be more broadly appealing across all gamemodes, while reducing unhealthy and overly niche options in favour of more interesting combinations and gameplay options, as well as refining risk and reward.

 

 

 

Over doubling blight generation, while simultaneously cutting Blight's negative effects in half, and increasing it's effectiveness, further unbalances the class. Blight would be trivial to keep an Maximum, be 40% less risky at maximum stacks, but increase damage by 45%, 75% for strike damage while traited with Wicked Corruption. We'd be getting hard nerfed in a week.

[Asum.4960]

40 minutes ago, Ceit.7619 said:

 

Generally agree that a pistol chain would be more fun, but this is basically never the case with pistols. Thief and Engineer are the only other pistol main hand users, and they don't get a chain either. Personally, if I were to fix something in the pistol kit, it would simply be to increase the amount of life force given from skills 2 and 3, in order to make it more dynamic with shroud usage.

 

 

While it would be nice to have our skills synergize with core fear-traits, I kinda like the move away from fear. With the amount of torment focus we have in this class, fear is a dps loss due to the movement mechanics of it.

 

 

A bit of weirdness in here. Blight is a massive damage boost as it is at 25% maximum, but your Dark Disciple adjustment cuts the hp loss in half, and adds an additional 5% damage. This would likely be completely broken in terms of balance. Then pair this with the Master Minor of an *additional* .5% per stack, raising the damage bonus from 30% to 45% total? From Minor traits. Bonkers.

 

Wicked Corruption and Septic Corruption also no longer balance each other, as you are advocating removing the additional condition damage per stack, but retaining the additional strike damage per stack and simply adding to it to make it even better. 'Septic Barrage' would only be left with the poison effect on Shroud 2, which is severely underwhelming.

 

For Dark Gunslinger, putting stat gains on Blight Stacks just seems like it would be frustrating to build around. The lack of a flat bonus makes it so people have to make annoying gear choices (I.E. Aim for sub-par crit or duration and hope you can maintain Blight Stacks, or ignore it and it becomes a wasted bonus).

 

 

Over doubling blight generation, while simultaneously cutting Blight's negative effects in half, and increasing it's effectiveness, further unbalances the class. Blight would be trivial to keep an Maximum, be 40% less risky at maximum stacks, but increase damage by 45%, 75% for strike damage while traited with Wicked Corruption. We'd be getting hard nerfed in a week.

I don't think 2 weapons with 2012 design of the same type not featuring an Auto Attack chain is a definitive reason to not give this one as well. Just because x is bland, doesn't mean y has to be as well. 

If anything, those should imo be updated as well, Although Thief Pistol suffers less from that issue with the Initiative system.

 

I don't think the kit needs more LF. Currently a lot of LF is constantly drained by Dark Disciple triggering as soon, and every time, you lose as little as a single HP, taking 5% of your LF away. I addressed this by making it only trigger once you are missing HP egual to or greater than 5% LF, making sure it only heals when your other sustain isn't already taking care of it anyway. 

This should make LF a lot more plentiful.

 

The Fear on Voracious Arc won't really cut into your DPS, as it's not going to be part of any DPS rotation, while enabling a lot of Trait interaction.

 

As explained above, I didn't add any Damage modifier to Dark Disciple, simply a fix to the constant LF drain by making the heal for LF out of shroud only activate when a full heal proc of 5% LF can trigger, rather than draining 5% LF to heal even a single Hit Point before your other sustain can kick in.

 

In these proposed changes I'm advocating for the removal of both +25% damage Traits, in exchange for a general +15% all damage minor Trait. So no, no 45%, let alone 75% damage modifiers. 15% at capped Blight. The current 45k+ Benchmarks are already too high.

They keyword "reworked" refers to completely replacing all current Trait effects. I'll try to clarify in the OP. 

 

I don't think adding 6 stacks of poison to a <4 second CD skill on it's own is severely underwhelming as a Trait.

 

I'm not cutting the health loss in half either. I cut it from 50% at 25 Stacks, to 30% at 30 stacks, while also removing the vitality minor - as in going from 11k Base HP Blighted to 13k HP. 

Slightly less prone to oneshots, still squishy as hell as non evade/block/barrier spammer.

 

Would the Stats per Blight thresholds be frustrating to build around, or will Blight be trivial to maintain? Your critique there is a bit contradictory. 

As it stands, any DPS rotation will want to perma cap Blight already in the current iteration, as well as still here for the 0.5% damage per stack - so if you are worried about gear composition/choices, you'll likely play Blight cap either way. 

A similar gameplay loop already is present on Scourge with Sand Sage to maintain 3 Shades for the extra Expertise, and building your gear accordingly.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Ceit.7619]

3 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

As explained above, I didn't add any Damage modifier to Dark Disciple, simply a fic to the constant LF drain by making the heal for LF out of shroud only activate when a full heal proc of 5% LF can trigger.

 

In these proposed changes I'm advocating for the removal of both +25% damage Traits, in exchange for a general +15% all damage minor Trait. So no, no 45%, let alone 75% damage modifiers. 

 

 

You get 1% damage boost per stack of Blight, so increasing the maximum amount of stacks raises the bonus from 25%, to 30% (25 stacks vs 30 stacks). Also, Shroud 4 could easily fit into a dps rotation with Insidious Disruption in the Curses line, making it cause Torment while also being a gap closer. I realized after the fact that Blight doesn't have a damage bonus on it untraited though, so it isn't as extreme as I initially thought. It still would be adding 5% damage to the strike component, but completely remove it from the condition component? This would both be a large buff to the power setup, and a huge nerf to the condition setup.

 

As Blight is right now, it would take some ideal situations to maintain Blight at 25 stacks over a long period of time. My thoughts on the Blight-adjusted stats was with this in mind, not yet incorporating the notion of over-doubling the blight generation from skill usage. So in regards to which one, it depends on the state of the rest, but either is problematic. 

[Asum.4960]

1 minute ago, Ceit.7619 said:

 

You get 1% damage boost per stack of Blight, so increasing the maximum amount of stacks raises the bonus from 25%, to 30% (25 stacks vs 30 stacks). Also, Shroud 4 could easily fit into a dps rotation with Insidious Disruption in the Curses line, making it cause Torment while also being a gap closer. I realized after the fact that Blight doesn't have a damage bonus on it untraited though, so it isn't as extreme as I initially thought. It still would be adding 5% damage to the strike component, but completely remove it from the condition component? This would both be a large buff to the power setup, and a huge nerf to the condition setup.

 

As Blight is right now, it would take some ideal situations to maintain Blight at 25 stacks over a long period of time. My thoughts on the Blight-adjusted stats was with this in mind, not yet incorporating the notion of over-doubling the blight generation from skill usage. So in regards to which one, it depends on the state of the rest, but either is problematic. 

..I removed the 1% damage per Stack of Blight Traits in these suggestions. Both the Strike, as well as the Condition damage one.

Currently, it's 25% bonus damage (either condi or power) from Blight (1% per Blight, Blight capped at 25). In my suggestions I changed that to 0.5% per Blight, Blight capped at 30 = 15%. I nerfed the damage modifier but made it global to make more room for Utility Traits, and very slightly reduced the HP reduction, with the Vitality minor in mind. 

 

Even with Insidious Disruption, the cast time of Voracious Arc would be a DPS loss over just auto attacking, so, no. 

 

As for Blight maintenance, no, currently DPS rotations perma cap 25 Blight. I also added an Elixier capping you on Blight, so maintaining those stats when going for maximum, min maxed dps, would not be an issue.

[Ceit.7619]

1 minute ago, Asum.4960 said:

..I removed the 1% damage per Stack of Blight Traits in these suggestions. Both the Strike, as well as the Condition damage one.

Currently, it's 25% bonus damage (either condi or power) from Blight (1% per Blight, Blight capped at 25). In my suggestions I changed that to 0.5% per Blight, Blight capped at 30 = 15%. I nerfed the damage modifier but made it global to make more room for Utility Traits, and very slightly reduced the HP reduction, with the Vitality minor in mind. 

 

Even with Insidious Disruption, the cast time of Voracious Arc would be a DPS loss over just auto attacking, so, no. 

 

As for Blight maintenance, no, currently DPS rotations perma cap 25 Blight. I also added an Elixier capping you on Blight, so maintaining those stats when going for maximum, min maxed dps, would not be an issue.

The 1% damage per stack on Wicked Corruption was there in my initial reply, as you can see from the quote I made of it. The issue I see in 'streamlining' Blight in this way, then becomes over-strengthening the condition aspect, as a Viper Harbinger will be receiving 15% Strike Damage bonus on top of 15% condition bonus, without traiting for either. As it is right now, the builds give you a choice to focus on Power, Support and Condition. Doing this will heavily slant it in the direction of condi for the entire spec. 

Further, if you are under the impression that Blight as it currently runs already has a perma-cap of 25, then having a trait tier based on Blight is entirely meaningless in the first place.

[Asum.4960]

Just now, Ceit.7619 said:

The 1% damage per stack on Wicked Corruption was there in my initial reply, as you can see from the quote I made of it. The issue I see in 'streamlining' Blight in this way, then becomes over-strengthening the condition aspect, as a Viper Harbinger will be receiving 15% Strike Damage bonus on top of 15% condition bonus, without traiting for either. As it is right now, the builds give you a choice to focus on Power, Support and Condition. Doing this will heavily slant it in the direction of condi for the entire spec. 

Further, if you are under the impression that Blight as it currently runs already has a perma-cap of 25, then having a trait tier based on Blight is entirely meaningless in the first place.

As I said in my original response, "Reworked" meant to me replacing all current Trait effects. So no, it wasn't there, you misunderstood and I went back to make it more clear.

 

As it stands, the Condi Build of Harbinger, in it's current beta form, already vastly outperforms the power variant, which is why I decided to keep the Condi Hybrid as mainline DPS option, while reworking the power line to be more focused around competitive modes and utility. It already doesn't compete and is around 10.000 damage per second behind, making those power DPS Traits a waste of space, which could be occupied by more interesting Utility, such as proposed here. 

 

I'm not just under the impression that Blight will be capped in a DPS scenario, as seen in already done Benchmarks, once you reach max Blight you'll never drop. 

So that design is already in place with the current traits. For general play though, it will add an increased incentive to stay at least at certain Blight thresholds though, and will still provide more engaging gameplay through that than the current iteration. 

If not, sure, making just boring flat stat gains is also an option.

[Ceit.7619]

1 minute ago, Asum.4960 said:

As I said in my original response, "Reworked" meant to me replacing all current Trait effects. So no, it wasn't there, you misunderstood and I went back to make it more clear.

 

As it stands, the Condi Build of Harbinger, in it's current beta form, already vastly outperforms the power variant, which is why I decided to keep the Condi Hybrid as mainline DPS option, while reworking the power line to be more focused around competitive modes and utility. It already doesn't compete and is around 10.000 damage per second behind, making those power DPS Traits a waste of space, which could be occupied by more interesting Utility, such as proposed here. 

 

I'm not just under the impression that Blight will be capped in a DPS scenario, as seen in already done Benchmarks, once you reach max Blight you'll never drop. 

So that design is already in place with the current traits. For general play though, it will add an increased incentive to stay at least at certain Blight thresholds though, and will still provide more engaging gameplay through that than the current iteration. 

If not, sure, making just boring flat stat gains is also an option.

 

 

Your exact phrasing:

 

Major: Wicked Corruption: Reworked. Vile Blast now additionally Corrupts Boons (3 in PvE, 1 in PvP).

 

"Additionally". This trait, as it currently is, only increases Strike damage. There's no other way to take this sentence. If that was your intention, fine, but it wasn't an error in reading. Further added to the fact that you explicitly phrase the condition one to remove it's stacks, but whatever.

As for the blight management, the only real way to maintain it currently is to be popping 2 elixirs on cooldown while rotating in and out of shroud, so that it only drops for a half-second. Doubling that would make this even easier (essentially making it 1 Elixir and ideal shroud rotation). I haven't personally seen attempts at a power harbinger benchmark, so I don't necessarily know what it competes at with an ideal setup.

I didn't initially look at the top trait line as a pvp spec, given I don't really pvp regularly. I'd generally prefer this to be a PvE spec, given that high-end pve is the place where Necro has historically fared the worst, while it's always been a lynchpin in pvp modes with multiple elite specs. Better to have at least one elite spec focus on PVE, so we don't run into the "Well we nerfed you by 50% because it was broken in WvW."

[Asum.4960]

46 minutes ago, Ceit.7619 said:

 

 

Your exact phrasing:

 

Major: Wicked Corruption: Reworked. Vile Blast now additionally Corrupts Boons (3 in PvE, 1 in PvP).

 

"Additionally". This trait, as it currently is, only increases Strike damage. There's no other way to take this sentence. If that was your intention, fine, but it wasn't an error in reading. Further added to the fact that you explicitly phrase the condition one to remove it's stacks, but whatever.

As for the blight management, the only real way to maintain it currently is to be popping 2 elixirs on cooldown while rotating in and out of shroud, so that it only drops for a half-second. Doubling that would make this even easier (essentially making it 1 Elixir and ideal shroud rotation). I haven't personally seen attempts at a power harbinger benchmark, so I don't necessarily know what it competes at with an ideal setup.

I didn't initially look at the top trait line as a pvp spec, given I don't really pvp regularly. I'd generally prefer this to be a PvE spec, given that high-end pve is the place where Necro has historically fared the worst, while it's always been a lynchpin in pvp modes with multiple elite specs. Better to have at least one elite spec focus on PVE, so we don't run into the "Well we nerfed you by 50% because it was broken in WvW."

The "Reworked" indicates that it completely replaces the current effects. The "additionally" clearly refers to Vile Blast. 

For the condition Trait, the only change was to remove the modifier, so that's stated.

Could I have been more clear? Sure...

 

 

The reason there are no Power Harbinger benchmarks is because there is little reason to push benchmark on clearly terrible builds.

 

The spec jives with both PvE and PvP already, so it will see play in both. Dedicating one Trait line more towards that style of play will actually make it more likely that the "PvE Lines" will remain relatively untouched and stay intact for PvE. Additionally, Harbinger is already heavily split in terms of balance between game modes - so there isn't much fear for PvE performance, and if anything, these proposed changes alleviate them. 

 

As for WvW, being so projectile based and squishy will make Harbinger highly unlikely to set up roots there. If anything as roamer, in which case once again, this proposed top line would be more the go to for that. For large scale fights, I don't see any way for Harbinger to compete with Scourge, or even Reaper.